Episode 107 features Rob Mallows the man behind The Deighton Dossier website and blog, who is here to talk about Len Deighton, Bernard Samson, Harry Palmer, as well as collecting books and feeding our reading habit, spy fiction, Spybrary and much much more…
Throughout the conversation, we discuss:
- Len Deighton
- Reading
- Collecting
- Harry Palmer
- Bernard Samson
- Starting a website
- Spybrary Connections
- La Carre, Fleming, and Deighton
- The Cold Ward
- Human Intelligence
- And much more
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
–End Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:12 – 00:00:26:22
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com Palmer’s trek continues with Star Trek five The Final Frontier. Eric Idle presents a sort of reminder to laugh through life, and I can confirm Nicolas is still diligently working on his novel. This is The Palmer Files episode 107 featuring Rob Mallows, the man behind the Deighton Dossier website and blog who is here to talk about Len Deighton, Bernard Sampson, Harry Palmer, as well as collecting books and feeding our reading habits.
00:00:26:22 – 00:01:02:33
Agent Palmer
Spy fiction, Spy Prairie and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:02:38 – 00:01:20:55
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 107th episode is Rob Mallows, the proprietor of Deighton Dossier and in my eyes, a Len Deighton expert, as well as a collector and fan. His site, Deighton Dossier dot net, is one I have been visiting on and off ever since.
00:01:20:55 – 00:01:42:15
Agent Palmer
I started my dating journey. And now, as you’ll hear, I have finished that journey and it was high time to talk to Rob and recapture the human part of human intelligence. During the conversation you are about to hear, we discuss our respective introductions to Len Deighton’s work, our book collecting and reading habits, as well as just exactly why Rob started the dating dossier in the first place.
00:01:42:24 – 00:02:01:26
Agent Palmer
And well, all of that, plus a whole lot more is coming your way. But first, remember, if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all contact information for Rob and myself in the show notes. You can find more information about my guest, Rob Mallows and of course, Len Deighton at Rob site Deighton Dossier dot net again.
00:02:01:26 – 00:02:21:24
Agent Palmer
That’s digi top and dossier Darknet. Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:21:29 – 00:02:49:56
Agent Palmer
Rob, you have a website dedicated to Len Deighton and as we are recording, I have just finished reading, at least on first read through the last Len Deighton book I will ever read, unless he comes out with a new one. And I did them all in publish order and I did them all regardless of fiction or non, and it was quite a journey.
00:02:50:01 – 00:03:11:58
Agent Palmer
And it it for me it was happenstance. It was kind of just I stumbled across the movie The Ipcress File and I went, I like this movie, but I want to know more about the source material and like, I don’t know, however many novels and, you know, histories of World War Two later here I am. I’ve read all the man wrote.
00:03:12:02 – 00:03:26:32
Agent Palmer
But but for me, it was just happenstance, like, you have a website dedicated to the man and I. You still write blogs about it where you collect cool first editions and stuff, like where did it start for you with with Len?
00:03:26:36 – 00:03:49:40
Rob Mallows
Well, first off, station, well done on your odyssey. Because I read each of your blog posts on your the Agent Palmer website. Must be a good number of years now. Always entertaining and it’s not, it’s not. It’s quite an undertaking you’ve taken because, hey, there are a lot of books to get through. Yeah.
00:03:49:45 – 00:04:00:03
Rob Mallows
And they there are so many other books you could be reading as well. So, I mean, first off, I guess I should take my hats off to you. And this is the first time we’ve spoken, but it’s like, feels like it’s been a long time coming, you know?
00:04:00:10 – 00:04:20:44
Agent Palmer
Well, and, I did read other books in between, like. And I felt like it was it lengthened the journey. But I think it also kind of allowed me to pay for it. Yeah. Like, there’s a pacing to it where like, yeah, there’s like 50 some, both 47, I don’t know, there’s a lot of books. Right. And they’re actually behind me on a shelf altogether.
00:04:20:49 – 00:04:32:04
Agent Palmer
As they probably should be. But like, I feel like, I like, I don’t know if I would have appreciated the journey had I done it in, like a year and just read them all back to back to back.
00:04:32:09 – 00:04:50:02
Rob Mallows
I think you’re right. You can, like anything in life. I suppose you can have too much of a good thing. We, as you said at the start, I’ve been, I’ve been reading and collecting and dating books for. I guess it must be about 25 years now. And, you know, I’ve, I have read most.
00:04:50:02 – 00:05:25:26
Rob Mallows
I’ve read all of them. Some of the more than ones. But equally, I can go for many years without reading one book, because, like you say, it’s it’s you. It’s the way I like with Len’s books, particularly with other books as well. It’s. There is a pleasure, in going back to a book you haven’t read for a long time and just rereading it, partly because, most of the cracking good stories, but also when you’re familiar with the broad thrust of the story, then as a reader, you can just explore, you can save a little bit more, I suppose, rather than having just feel you having to consume it.
00:05:25:26 – 00:05:54:20
Rob Mallows
And so to get through to the next chapter and stuff. So, yeah. So, as I say, yeah, I do take my hat off to you. It’s been quite a journey, but it would. Each of your posts have been very interesting, and it sounds like it’s a, once it’s like you say, when you come to the end, what you have an opportunity again, is to look back and just to think, well, you know, it’s probably very rare that, anybody reads the whole the over the whole of a single author in any one go.
00:05:54:20 – 00:05:57:37
Rob Mallows
It’s pretty quite rare for most readers. So, you know.
00:05:57:39 – 00:05:59:36
Agent Palmer
I, I’m the exception then, because I’m unique.
00:05:59:36 – 00:06:00:02
Rob Mallows
Position I.
00:06:00:03 – 00:06:28:58
Agent Palmer
He’s not he’s not my only he’s not my only quest I guess along this journey, like, I, Yeah. And and the other authors I’m about to name are nowhere. Like, there are no similarities here, right? Like, so I, I’ve been a fan of Chuck Klosterman since, like, his first, two books. And so I’m rereading some for the sake of putting it on the blog, because I like to document the journey.
00:06:28:58 – 00:06:56:35
Agent Palmer
But like I, I, I’m five reviews, but two books away from being up to date. But he’s still writing and publishing things and then there are, a couple other authors. Douglas Copeland is another one, kind of in a more of a De Klosterman vein, where I’m, I’m I’m again trying to catch up. I always seem to come to the authors I like the most.
00:06:56:40 – 00:07:13:48
Agent Palmer
Well, after they’re quote unquote prime, whether they’re still publishing or not. And so I’m always in catch up mode when I’m like, oh, I want to read more about this. But like, I, I do, there will come a point where I will have read all that those three authors have have written.
00:07:13:53 – 00:07:35:13
Rob Mallows
At the moment. For example, I’ve, I came late to the American author, Jonathan Franzen. Okay. I think it was at The corrections. I read first, at ten years ago. And I’ve been, steadily buying copies of his books and working through those. And they’re, as I say, it’s I mean, I probably I think you’re you sympathize with these.
00:07:35:14 – 00:07:55:36
Rob Mallows
I think what I, I’m rather like a dog with a chew toy. When I find an author I like, I go in the other one. The last decade or so, I’ve read, most of it. Most of his works is Umberto Eco. Okay. And particularly the one I’ve, I’ve now read probably 4 or 5 times is to Foucault’s Pendulum.
00:07:55:41 – 00:08:17:01
Rob Mallows
There’s just I guess it’s like an any reader, I suppose some some with a favorite author authors or style of books. Just something clicks, you know, you just feel like it. I’ve often likened, reading Len’s books. Like putting on for me is putting on a comfortable pair of shoes, you know. Well, they’re comfy. I could walk around them.
00:08:17:03 – 00:08:20:08
Rob Mallows
I know what you know. Know what to expect. And it’s just. It just feels good, you know?
00:08:20:10 – 00:08:45:32
Agent Palmer
Yeah. For me, Len’s books was like putting on a, like a pair of dress shoes because, like, sometimes you’re going to a wedding and a celebration and you’re really excited, but sometimes you’re going to a funeral. And I only I only say that because, you know. Well, the early, like, Palmer stuff was great. And and the Psalms and verse, as I, I’ve come to call it, is fun.
00:08:45:36 – 00:09:10:04
Agent Palmer
There there were some quote unquote funerals in there when I was reading some of the history, the like, the nonfiction that he writes is dense, but it’s still like it’s still fits, like the shoe still fits. It’s just not as much of a celebration. And I, I think it’s it’s worth noting that that’s life. Like we do go to weddings and funerals and you, you kind of need both.
00:09:10:09 – 00:09:36:20
Agent Palmer
I, I think I in reading all that Len has written, I have expanded myself because I now know more about World War Two and the Battle of Britain than I, I, I never sit like that was like when I set out, I was like, I’ll read everything he wrote. How, you know, like, sure, why not? Like, you don’t think necessarily about some of the nonfiction stuff.
00:09:36:24 – 00:10:06:25
Rob Mallows
And no, I think you’re absolutely right. And I think that’s, I guess where the, as the things I find interesting about Len dating the man and the author is that he is, I guess is quite a rare thing, these days, a sort of polymath or an autodidact. You know, he’s, you know, he’s written obviously novels, and history books, but of course, he’s also, written cookbooks.
00:10:06:30 – 00:10:34:41
Rob Mallows
It’s written, he’s edited Playboy’s travel section. You know, he’s, he’s, he he did the UK first edition for, on the road, you know, lots of fascinating, background as a designer. So, so, he’s one of these infuriatingly interesting people, who have many, well, in many strengths of their both, but also many a sort of wealth of experiences that they obviously, I guess, bring to bear in the books.
00:10:34:45 – 00:10:35:47
Rob Mallows
He writes, I suppose.
00:10:35:47 – 00:11:10:04
Agent Palmer
Yeah. It’s I, it’s one of the reasons that I always try and start at the beginning with any journey like and I, there were a couple blog posts that I’m sure you read that where I kind of took Len to task towards the end of the Bernard Sampson trilogies. He starts to write in the introductions that you can read these in any order, and he tries to I and I, you know, there’s a part of me that will always want to start at the beginning on anything.
00:11:10:09 – 00:11:55:01
Agent Palmer
And it’s not until I read Charity and I finish charity that I went, okay, this one could be read out of order. And I think it took reading all of them and needing that kind of moment to reflect to go. He might have been right about I don’t I don’t think he’s right about all of them. I think some of them do work best in order, but I bring it up because having read the nonfiction alongside the fiction, he builds as an author in a way where like, you kind of get a little extra detail from like, oh, like he took some of the research from, I don’t know, you know, blood, tears and
00:11:55:01 – 00:12:04:40
Agent Palmer
folly and really added it in is a little like, you know, excerpt or, you know, historical note in for further.
00:12:04:40 – 00:12:05:38
Rob Mallows
Fiction.
00:12:05:43 – 00:12:46:25
Agent Palmer
And it I’m still working mentally. I haven’t put pen to paper as we record this. I’m still working mentally on like a kind of a recap of my experience reading through all of it, without like, you know, going into detail on each book and the the only thing I can come away with right now is there are some of the one offs that are kind of like, like like almost like a one hit wonder, like, I think of specifically Close Up and Goodbye Mickey Mouse that do not fit in any like they don’t like.
00:12:46:25 – 00:13:08:04
Agent Palmer
They’re they’re very ones. More of a mystery compared to anything else he’s ever done. Ones the most romantic novel I think Len’s ever written, in goodbye Mickey Mouse and I just go like, that’s kind of I almost want to be that kind of writer where it’s like, I. You mean he can write anything?
00:13:08:04 – 00:13:26:27
Rob Mallows
Yeah. Well, I think was. I was just thinking about the, as you say, he’s written a number of sort of one off, standalone novels, but also, of course, I suppose as a, as an author, he’s more famous or more well-known, at least for the, for the two series, the stories that they have, what’s called the Harry Palmer series, I suppose.
00:13:26:27 – 00:13:52:43
Rob Mallows
And then, as you see, there’s ten volumes in the Bernard Sampson series from the outside in, you know, they are in the first, the five books, the sort of the unnamed spy series, the first book he wrote. You could get the feeling that, you know, they were planned from the outset as a series because the character, the Inish, the main character so well wrote in the city the idea of the mise en scene in which he’s placed in there and the characters are actually surrounded.
00:13:52:43 – 00:14:13:05
Rob Mallows
So yeah, yeah, they they certainly warrant more than one book, but as far as I know, I don’t think, you know, it’s interesting, although I don’t think he planned, you know, he wrote, the crisp on his first book. Almost on a whim, I suppose, just when he was on a holiday in the Dordogne. It’s, I don’t think, nothing.
00:14:13:05 – 00:14:37:35
Rob Mallows
I’ve read about interviews and stuff with him. Is that gives me any indication that you ever thought more than just, you know, the spy to write a spy story? Similarly with, the Bernard Sampson series, of which, depending on who you are, it’s 9 or 10 in in the series. I know that he brought the the arc of the first three novels.
00:14:37:40 – 00:15:03:43
Rob Mallows
Burlingame, Mexico City and London Match were planned out as a, as a, as a, as a series or at least as an arc of a, of a story across three books. But, he has certainly hadn’t planned the other two. Nos. And I guess it’s quite a skill for an author to put pen to paper. Or, start typing on the keyboard with only a sort of broad understanding of where you going?
00:15:03:48 – 00:15:04:00
Rob Mallows
Well.
00:15:04:04 – 00:15:32:24
Agent Palmer
Especially when you consider, even without spoilers, just how complicated the second two trilogy, the second and third trilogies are for Bernard Sampson. Like, it’s just there is it’s almost like, you know, I mean, faith, hope and charity is very much a how many loose ends can I tie up while at the same time furthering the story.
00:15:32:29 – 00:15:34:08
Rob Mallows
And it absolutely. Yeah.
00:15:34:10 – 00:15:34:57
Agent Palmer
I, I.
00:15:34:59 – 00:16:00:25
Rob Mallows
I always think, for example, that, if he had stopped at, Spy Sinker, the sixth novel or the third novel of the second trilogy, I think the reader or readers would have felt satisfied at that as a sort of denouement to the story, because you bring everything back to the start extension. Yeah. But like you say, I think, in adding a third trilogy, it was I think there’s probably a I imagine there’s an author, there was an H.
00:16:00:25 – 00:16:29:19
Rob Mallows
He needed to scratch, I suppose, and by going essentially, getting deeper and, into the sort of the back arc of the story of the, of all the main characters, it’s a sort of. Yeah. I thinking back, it could have been a wrong step as an author, you know, to sort of try and re, squeeze another three novels out of well-established, characters who already had a successful storyline arc, so to speak.
00:16:29:24 – 00:17:00:50
Rob Mallows
But actually, I think, you know, you they, I, they add something to it. So, like you say, when you read two, novels from novel one Burlingame through to novel nine, Charity and potentially Winter. And in between because it’s such a was I that’s a lot of reading and b the characters were going through not just, you know, there are plots and there are subplots in their, story arcs and they’re overarching story arcs.
00:17:00:55 – 00:17:26:43
Rob Mallows
You do end up when you turn the last page and put the book down. You do feel that you’ve, you wait, I suppose you’ve been entertained, but also that you’ve, you’ve immersed yourselves in these characters lives across nine books, and it’s I guess it’s reasonably rare for an author who’s you can can do that because, you’ve got to have a great characters, you’ve got to have compelling writing, fascinating dark.
00:17:26:43 – 00:17:44:32
Rob Mallows
You’ve got to have the the core idea is you’ve got to be strong. And to do that in one book for a new author is a is a triumph. But to do that, nine and then 20 or so other books is, you know, I guess it’s why, you know, during his career, he was one initiative.
00:17:44:37 – 00:17:56:35
Rob Mallows
I guess most, I suppose hard working and well known thriller writers in the UK because, however he did it, he kept coming up with good ideas and was able to turn them into great books.
00:17:56:40 – 00:18:21:02
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of I’m taking the the break right now, from all of his stuff, but I’m not done because, like, I still didn’t watch the redone. I haven’t watched the the newer Ipcress File series. I haven’t watched any of the Samson, films TV series at all. So, like, I still have more on, on my journey, so to speak.
00:18:21:02 – 00:18:43:36
Agent Palmer
But as far as the source material is, I’m I’m done. And it’s, you know, I think there are a couple books I think I’d like to reread, but like, I’m in a, I’m in a place now where I’m trying to read all of the books in my house, because if I ever move again, I want to make sure that I, I’m not lugging these things around, that it’s like, oh, I’ll get to it eventually.
00:18:43:36 – 00:18:49:42
Agent Palmer
Like, no, this is this is the journey I’m on. And so, you know.
00:18:49:46 – 00:19:10:14
Rob Mallows
Kind of I’m, I’m pleased to hear you say. I’m pleased to hear you say that you have a goal at aiming to read every book in your house. I mean, I’ve, I don’t know if you can see, but I am in my living room. I’m surrounded by maybe six. Yeah, but six bookcases, full of all sorts of books and, I had no heart.
00:19:10:14 – 00:19:21:37
Rob Mallows
I can’t say I read every one of them, but I would say I have read 90% of them. Okay. Yeah, but not my book reading lifetime. Yeah, because one thing I can’t abide is an unread book.
00:19:21:41 – 00:19:48:31
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I think it was the move from my apartment into my house where I went, oh, I because when I had my apartment, I still left books with my parents and like, they’re you just never have enough shelf space in, in an apartment. Especially in a small apartment like I had. So when I got my own house, I was like, I have, I have I’ll, I’ll get I’ll buy bookcases.
00:19:48:31 – 00:20:07:10
Agent Palmer
I’ll be able to put everything on and I just, you know, you I moved in and I went great. And then my parents were like, oh, are you going to finally take these boxes from the garage? And I was like, oh, like. And so like the, the library that I have amassed over my life, I was like, oh, I it what?
00:20:07:15 – 00:20:30:57
Agent Palmer
Oh, okay. And so you’re spending energy and time and like all the resources you can think of as far as like either storage or moving them or whatever. And I’m like, all right, I, I need to double down some of these. But, you know, some of the books are handed down, you know, or, you know, gifts. But it’s time.
00:20:30:57 – 00:20:48:03
Agent Palmer
And I, you know, I, I want to be proud of the books on my shelf and not have somebody come in and be like, oh, I really like that book. And for me to be like, well, I’ve moved it four times, but I’ve never cracked the spine. Like, I just I don’t want that to be the case anymore.
00:20:48:04 – 00:21:11:47
Rob Mallows
I was just thinking the, I also, I often tell people when they ask me as, when I say I’m at work and I’m bringing a book with me to read at lunch, I tell people that I have very few vices. I don’t drink, I don’t do drugs. You know, I don’t, my one vice is books and particularly most of my books, hardbacks.
00:21:11:52 – 00:21:31:49
Rob Mallows
And over the years, as I say, I’ve got about six bookcases, in my living room. And I’ve now come to a point where if I buy a new book because I bought recently, it’s a, it was a military history of Germany from 1450 to the present time. It’s quite interesting by Peter Wilson. It’s by the by.
00:21:32:00 – 00:21:49:45
Rob Mallows
The point is, it’s a big, thick, 900 page hardback book. And then I, I realized I had no space on which to put it. Put it on my, bookshelf. So when I did, a few weeks ago, when I was on, week of a new leave, I had a bit of a cull, and it’s actually quite,
00:21:49:49 – 00:22:14:01
Rob Mallows
And when you’re a sort of book collection, a book reader, you know, you sort of, I knew I had to create a bit of space for books to come, so to speak. So, I must have taken about 20 books, maybe down to the local charity shop. It was a bit. I thought it might be a bit harder, but actually it was an opportunity for me to my shelves and look at each book and take it off the shelf.
00:22:14:01 – 00:22:32:49
Rob Mallows
If I can just really ask myself, you know, does it mean much? It was. It was an impulse purchase. Have I did I enjoy it, read, I read it. Could somebody else get more benefit out of it? So having I’ve sort of basically disciplined myself so that I don’t intend to ever buy any more bookshelves. I think I’ve got enough.
00:22:32:52 – 00:22:54:49
Rob Mallows
Okay. So, it’ll have to be a sort of one in, one out policy from now on. But I think it’s what it does mean is that there are certain books I know I will never trade or sell, as well as my. For example, this one is my, Len Deighton collection, which looking around a month, there’s two full bookcases, probably about 500 elements in that collection.
00:22:54:54 – 00:23:18:52
Rob Mallows
I’ve got a full, almost complete Umberto Eco collection. As I said, I’ve got a complete collection, so it must be at least a hundred books of the, British humorists. Spike Milligan. I’ve got everything he wrote. I’ve got, two shelves worth of books relating to the German film series Heimat from the 1980s. I’ve got two full bookshelves of books relating to the Holy Roman Empire.
00:23:18:52 – 00:23:27:42
Rob Mallows
So, you know, you’re getting a sense that when I find a theme or an author or, a time period, I go all in.
00:23:27:46 – 00:23:50:48
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I I’m with you as far as the one in, one out. Because I really have gotten to a point where, I mean, I’m in the same boat, and it’s also kind of like after I read it, because I’m, I, I’d love to say I’m. I’m at 50%. I don’t think I’ve read 50% of my house yet.
00:23:50:53 – 00:24:14:11
Agent Palmer
It’s just, you know, but what I will say is, when I finish a book, it’s due. I think I’ll reread it. Number one. Or will I reference it in any way? Number two. And those are the only questions. It’s because it’s not really anything with the exception of. And this is where I think you and I kind of are the same with the exception of collections.
00:24:14:15 – 00:24:40:26
Agent Palmer
Right. Like I may never read Winter again, but I have a complete Len Deighton collection. I’m not going to get rid of winter. And so yeah, there are like blood, tears and folly. Might have taken me the longest to read, and not just because it’s the longest, but it was the most dense of all of the nonfiction he did, and I.
00:24:40:31 – 00:25:00:39
Agent Palmer
I probably won’t pick that one up again. Er, shipwreck. Meanwhile, I will probably pick up a few times because that that was just a fun little, jaunt through a specific technology period in history. But I owned them all. I don’t want to break up the collection now that it’s complete.
00:25:00:39 – 00:25:22:37
Rob Mallows
Absolutely. I mean, as I say, a I’m looking round again, my, I wouldn’t say my collection is complete, but it is largely complete. You know, I mean, I’m at the stage of my collecting now. I mean, I’ve from talking with a, a book dealer, I know, apparently, I’ve, I’ve got probably one of the 2 or 3 best collections in the world based on his knowledge of.
00:25:22:37 – 00:25:44:09
Rob Mallows
And this is a guy who is like one of the world’s, top dealers in Ian Fleming, as well as dating and stuff. So he knows all the of big collectors. So I mean, and let’s not have that’s not happened by and I didn’t have a plan. You know when I, when I got my first book, which was I got the first book I got was I think I was about 13 or so, maybe 14.
00:25:44:14 – 00:26:12:26
Rob Mallows
It was a, I got the Burlingame, Mexico set, not much as a book set in paperback from my father. I think it was a Christmas present, when I, and I read those three, I think straight one after the other enjoyed them. But at no point did I think right at that point, I am now going to, in a 25 years time or whatever, I will have, an almost complete collection of everything then taken is written.
00:26:12:31 – 00:26:37:40
Rob Mallows
I mean, as a collector, I mean, I’m at the stage now where, you know, I’m my I’m like a sort of a, like a trophy hunter. No, I suppose I’m going only for ultra rare game. So, What? I’m on the hunt. Really rare things like this. Certain ephemera to do with, you know, marketing campaigns for certain books, etc..
00:26:37:40 – 00:27:04:12
Rob Mallows
There are there are certain book covers that, I’ve got notes about the apparently, you know, that feel apocryphal. There are things out there that I know somewhere there’s like, there’s a marketing pack associated with, Billion Dollar Brain when it was being marketed in the late 60s that I know exists, but I’ve never found the example of it.
00:27:04:17 – 00:27:24:10
Rob Mallows
But it’s like I said to somebody recently, these, and I documented on my dating dossier, blog on website and on the Facebook group that in the last couple of years I’ve shot a couple of white whales, so to speak, in terms of my collecting, one of which was a really obscure. And this shows the extent of the problem.
00:27:24:11 – 00:27:59:40
Rob Mallows
I probably have. It was basically, not a book that Len wrote, but it’s, it’s a very it’s basically a, an edition of something called The Machine review, which is a magazine published in the 60s, early magazines associated with homosexual rights in the US. And I and many years ago I read in some article or somewhere in book collector something Len had written, at the front cover of this is just a black and white novel of, a black man and a white man just in profile.
00:27:59:45 – 00:28:23:04
Rob Mallows
But I had that on my I had that as an eBay search. Automatic, like 18 years, you know, and I set it up on eBay because there were certain things I wanted to find. And like you do, you know, you set these things up online and you forget about them, and then, a couple of years ago, thing to my inbox, eBay, you know, for sale one.
00:28:23:10 – 00:28:59:22
Rob Mallows
And of course, I went straight on there. I bid you know, I got to the stage where I couldn’t, having spent, similarly with, there are various, so you think what it was. But there are some like, for example, there’s a, there’s a very, the paperback edition, a Funeral in Berlin. Penguin. They did a really big marketing push for that where they would, sort of you, journalists, and they took them all out on the plane to see the film being filmed in Berlin in 1967.
00:28:59:34 – 00:29:19:54
Rob Mallows
When you, Yeah, when the when the paperback edition came out and there was a, a really big, and I’d only ever seen, like, photographs of it, the marketing essentially, instead of a press pack, which had, you know, some great photographs and all this sort of had a specially made map. It had an author information.
00:29:19:59 – 00:29:49:25
Rob Mallows
And again, that’s something I, I knew was out there. But again, it’s just through, online searches, through talking to book dealers, to just keeping my eye open. And then I where did I think, I think it was in a book dealer. Somewhere in. Yeah, somewhere in that country. Which one? But basically it was just he got in touch with me because he knew I was on the lookout for anything dating.
00:29:49:30 – 00:30:05:07
Rob Mallows
It was pure chance. But, you know, as soon as I bought it, I would have paid, you know, three times what I pay for it. It was ridiculous. I’m not going to tell you what I pay for it, but it’s a ridiculous amount. You cannot justify what I spent on it. But nevertheless, I did, because I could.
00:30:05:07 – 00:30:23:57
Rob Mallows
I guess. But I’m glad I did, because I know that I’ve got it, and and I, I don’t think there are any examples I’m aware of apart from. I know that the Penguin Society in the UK, they have a copy. Yeah. And I think there is one copy in the Penguin archives, but outside of that I’ve never seen it in In the Wild.
00:30:24:02 – 00:30:31:02
Rob Mallows
So there’s a certain I think it’s a very male thing, but it’s a certain sort of one upmanship to know that as a collector. Well.
00:30:31:02 – 00:30:50:58
Agent Palmer
There’s, there’s a compilation ism, right? Like there’s a completion ism that’s important. I, I, I mean, I, I didn’t know what I first of all, like, let’s talk about naivete. I didn’t know what I was getting into. Like, I was like, I really like the Ipcress File. I liked it enough to name my blog and brand after Harry Palmer.
00:30:51:11 – 00:31:12:55
Agent Palmer
And so I was like, I’ll read the book, but I’m not just going to read the book. So I bought the first Len date and I ever bought was The Ipcress File. But I didn’t just buy the Ipcress File. I bought the Franklin Library special edition version of the Chris file. And so I read it and I went, all right, I really like this.
00:31:12:55 – 00:31:40:59
Agent Palmer
I wonder if there’s more. And then it just keeps going on and one of the things about collecting books that I feel like it’s very different from any other kind of thing, you can collect, is there are little small unknown victories that happen. And so I have a couple example. One, I’m a big Baltimore Orioles fan. I got Earl Weaver’s Buy Autobiography.
00:31:40:59 – 00:32:06:55
Agent Palmer
I think it was signed. I bought it used because it was out of print. Did it say it was signed it? No, it didn’t, but it arrived and I opened it up and I went, there’s an autograph here that’s cool. An Expensive Place to Die came with its own little packet. The edition I got came with its own little packet of, like, a classified packet that I wasn’t expecting.
00:32:07:07 – 00:32:34:00
Agent Palmer
Right. And it’s, you know, I’m, I’m a I’m a no spoiler guy, so I didn’t even go through the packet until I finished reading the book. But it was like these kind of small little victories of like, oh, it’s a first edition. But I didn’t realize it was a for or this comes with a little extra or it’s got an autographed like, like when you’re getting an maybe maybe record collectors because those things could be signed or there could be a little extra thing in the sleeve.
00:32:34:15 – 00:32:40:38
Agent Palmer
But outside of that, like if you get a baseball card, you get a baseball card. Like there’s no surprise of like.
00:32:40:43 – 00:33:08:31
Rob Mallows
One thing, through collecting Dayton’s works. I’ve noticed and sort of found quite interesting aspect of it is, as you said, the example you’ve just said of inexpensive places that I what you’re referring to, there is a sort of a slipped a slip case of, what on the face of it looked like facsimiles of, secret nature, files and memos about nuclear weapons.
00:33:08:36 – 00:33:28:06
Rob Mallows
Which if you just took a quick glance at it, you’d think, they look authentic. But of course they’re not. They’re, linked to some of the themes in the book. And they were they were presented with the first editions of the. You have the book in the UK and of course, interesting that it’s a separate, folding folder.
00:33:28:10 – 00:33:45:33
Rob Mallows
A lot of the first editions of that book no longer have it. And of course, if you have one, you’re probably about, one of the lucky few you do because, you know, it’s very easy, but these things get lost. And I think that’s why an interesting aspect of, of the books I’ve collected from Lynn Deighton and, probably the same with other authors like bond as well.
00:33:45:33 – 00:34:03:47
Rob Mallows
Is that the books themselves? One thing, and they’re always a pleasure to read, but it’s also there’s a sort of whole constellation of stuff around that of ephemera. For example, I’ve got some really interesting examples, like with Billion Dollar Brain, the third book in the Harry Palmer novels, when that was the first edition, came out in the UK.
00:34:03:51 – 00:34:26:23
Rob Mallows
His publishers, the sort of, as any good publisher do, would create buzz, and interest in booksellers. They pushed it out, and what looks like a fairly anonymous envelope marked with a Finnish postal postal stamp. They sent out, a little sort of mini dossier, I suppose. Oh, it’s a little, a facsimile of a diary.
00:34:26:27 – 00:34:46:02
Rob Mallows
Notes made by Linder when he was in Finland doing research for the novel. There’s a copy of, what looks like a ticket to the opera. There’s, an airline ticket, etcetera. Which. And so it gave the feeling of, almost like a sort of these are the things you need on your next spy mission, so to speak.
00:34:46:07 – 00:35:14:03
Rob Mallows
But of course, it’s the very nature of ephemeris. It’s designed to be used once and thrown away so that this pack, this envelope I was just referring to, you know, again, that’s something it I knew it existed, but I’d never actually seen it until, I think it came up for auction, on a book auction. So I know eBay, ten, 15 years ago, I think, and again, I, I, I spent a, I didn’t need to, but I, you know, I bought it based.
00:35:14:03 – 00:35:36:24
Rob Mallows
I was determined to get it because it’s actually quite an interesting little, in and of itself. You have you read the book? It’s quite an interesting little insight into what 60s Finland was like, what things were like at the Cold War, how an author makes notes, you know, was interesting about this little, and indeed a couple of times when I, a couple of times now, I’ve met Leonard, he’s had he still has it with him.
00:35:36:24 – 00:35:57:50
Rob Mallows
He had a little, they’re a little sort of, you know, a6 pad, I suppose, of the notebook. And as an author, he he’s basically he’s forever sort of noting things down, sketching things down, etc.. And this, this is a sort of copy of some of the things he wrote down and sketched for. So there’s a there’s a sketch of a Finnish, machine gun used by the Finnish Army.
00:35:57:50 – 00:36:15:29
Rob Mallows
There’s a sketch of, street lamps, what they look like in Holland, how they, you know what, all this sort of minutiae of detail, which you think. Why on earth would you write that down? But but I suppose, as you said about the start, is that I think particularly for Lynn Dayton’s books is one of the things that, gives readers a key here.
00:36:15:29 – 00:36:44:24
Rob Mallows
So this one is obviously the great characters in the storylines and the sort of and the fantastic dialog. Is it the detail when it’s used well, is really gives it an authenticity which perhaps other other authors might have not thought about. And I guess that’s probably a, it reflects, I think his characteristic as a person is that he’s quite a sort of, I guess being trained as an artist as well here, he’s always on the lookout for things, and rather than just forgetting about them, he scribbles them down.
00:36:44:29 – 00:36:49:20
Rob Mallows
I guess any good author. It’s pretty good. A good working, working, way of working, I suppose.
00:36:49:21 – 00:37:17:59
Agent Palmer
I think any any good human should do that. I mean, we like whether you write, whether you’re a writer, a blog, like whether you intend to do anything with it or not. We all have those good ideas that have been lost because we didn’t write them down. And like, I’ve gotten to a point now where I don’t go anywhere without a pad of paper, I’m I’m much faster writing old school pen to paper than I am typing in my phone, but I will type in my phone in a pinch.
00:37:18:04 – 00:37:53:24
Agent Palmer
Because obviously we always have to put like, you got to write that stuff down because it will just leave you. And maybe it’s just something to share with your friend. And the next time you have coffee, you know, maybe it’s just maybe it’s the the intro for you and me for our next blog post. Like, who knows what it will end up being, but like, it’s nice to kind of save some of that stuff because it, it does easily go like it’s, it just so easily goes away because we all have no earthly idea why it came to us in the first place.
00:37:53:29 – 00:38:10:58
Agent Palmer
I did want to ask though, like, you know, you got your first date and obviously you were reading other ones. Like what? What prompts you to start the dossier as it is? Because like, that’s, that’s a jump from like, oh, I like it to I want to write about it.
00:38:10:58 – 00:38:37:37
Rob Mallows
Well, I guess, I mean, I it’s one of those things that you lose track of time, but I guess I’ve been, there’s been a dating dossier website, which I, I think I must have started probably at least three, 16 years ago, and it’s gone through 2 or 3 iterations through then. I think it’s initially it was, as I started collecting more and more of Len Dayton’s books, I was looking for more and more information, particularly about sort of things I might have missed.
00:38:37:42 – 00:38:56:11
Rob Mallows
And one thing, I suppose, and this was another sort of the period of 15, 18 years ago, and of course, the internet, there was obviously stuff out there, but it’s it’s not there’s less much less information. There is now. Well, I suppose I found was that there were loads and loads of sites about, James Bond, for example, you know, even then.
00:38:56:11 – 00:39:13:57
Rob Mallows
But you know that through websites about James Bond, but there was no really good website or information about 19 at the time. I guess I was, you know, reading his books and started collecting some of the first editions. So I thought, you know, I suppose in that situation I thought, well, why don’t I have a go at trying it myself?
00:39:13:57 – 00:39:33:16
Rob Mallows
So I bought the domain name, and I used actually to learn to code, very simple HTML sort of website building, I suppose. And ostensibly I did the website first as a sort of I think I did it because I felt there was a little bit of not a major injustice, but a minor injustice in the sense of where Ian Fleming has all of these.
00:39:33:16 – 00:39:52:20
Rob Mallows
And John MacQuarrie, I had numerous websites associated with him. This author whose books I enjoyed, there was nothing dedicated to him. Okay. And because he is, I think probably out of, you know, he the author himself is not a great self-published is indeed he often shuns publicity. So I don’t think that, you know, he was never going to put one up for himself.
00:39:52:25 – 00:40:18:15
Rob Mallows
So I thought, but, a very simple I took a nice photographs of all my books, and I put it all together, and I found some background information about each of the books that I put out there. And, you know, I’ve never even had no expectations for it. And it’s it’s been there for 18 years or so, but then said that once, you know, certain things came, I started doing a, a sort of separate blog that also called the Dating Dossier blog.
00:40:18:20 – 00:40:34:53
Rob Mallows
Again, just for, just as an outlet to say when I found new, when I come up, a real big find as a collector, you know, it’s there’s an element, I suppose, if you want to show these things off. But also, you know, if you think if I find them interesting, other readers may find them interesting.
00:40:34:58 – 00:40:54:29
Rob Mallows
So I did the blog and, you know, again, it’s never been a rip roaring success, but there’s been a couple of thousand visitors each month, which is fine. And then through that, as social media grew up, I think I started with the Facebook page first and then, the Twitter, as you do the Twitter page were exposed as it is now.
00:40:54:34 – 00:41:25:03
Rob Mallows
And that’s been the most, I suppose, the most interesting evolution of the, of my, online presence, I guess, as a, as a collector and as a what other people have termed a dating expert even know I don’t put that term myself. Is the course with social media. The very nature of it is social. And through that I am, you know, it’s the social media has many, many services that sure you went, but it also has like any other technology, it’s pretty good size.
00:41:25:03 – 00:41:50:16
Rob Mallows
And the fact that it’s I can have online conversations with other collectors, dating and other works, living in, Seattle, Buenos Aires is whatever. It’s fascinating and it’s fantastic. And through, through the Facebook page, the dating dossier, there are, I guess, people I would consider friends who I’ve never actually met, as you do social media friends or online friends.
00:41:50:20 – 00:42:14:19
Rob Mallows
But there’s a there has grown up over the last ten years. It’s a nice little community of people, not many of us, but there’s a and through that, I’ve, you know, I’ve met some, I’ve met some really interesting people, and I’ve become friends with a few of them, like, there’s, Shane Whaley, who’s the, creator of the Spring Library podcast, which I’m sure you’re aware of.
00:42:14:19 – 00:42:33:54
Rob Mallows
And your readers and listeners may be aware, we, got to know each other online through the dating dossier face, but he’s also a big dating fans that he got in touch with me, I think, through the website. And then we communicated, on and off. He lives in Vermont. So every so often we do email and communicate online.
00:42:33:59 – 00:42:50:31
Rob Mallows
And then one day he said, oh, I think he was starting a podcast. This was podia 7 or 8 years ago now, this is the genesis of spidery. He said, do you want to become a, the first, guest? And I thought, well, why not only talk about lending? Because he’s a big lending fan.
00:42:50:44 – 00:43:02:49
Rob Mallows
He also likes his favorite books of the burner, Samsung books, as they are mine both. Oh, I know, we did a podcast. It was a bit rough and ready. This was, in the days when podcasts. Well, not everybody goes.
00:43:02:49 – 00:43:32:16
Agent Palmer
Oh, you’re fine, because everyone I mean, I heard that podcast and I went, oh, I’m not alone. Because it is like the, the, the reason and I think it’s, something that you have by having a singular blog, because my blog is all over the place, and I admit that, and that’s because I, I cannot well, although I cannot commit to one hobby, I cannot commit to one thing.
00:43:32:21 – 00:44:05:32
Agent Palmer
I’m incapable of that. And I, you know, as as as as proof that I went from blogging to podcasting and potential. I keep teasing video. I’m incapable of one medium as well. But, like, I, I think that what what what what you have created is a beacon for anyone who enjoys dating because not only is your site the first one that comes up, and it’s probably the most expansive, version of it.
00:44:05:36 – 00:44:39:30
Agent Palmer
And, and I found it more useful than I. I don’t know why I ended up with this. I have the Dayton companion, which I got at some point, and I was using as my bibliography for a while. But, like for, for Dayton, people see that, and then they see that you’re so you are social and they go, all right, well, I someone I can talk to and Shane’s done the same thing for SPI stuff in general, and I, I just, you know, it’s it’s exciting.
00:44:39:35 – 00:45:10:32
Agent Palmer
There’s also a chip on all of our shoulders. Right. Like let’s be real. Dayton is the, the he I don’t know if he should be the third dog in the race, right. I mean, with with with the carry and with with, Fleming. I think the three of them, as far as classic spy stuff goes, should be equal, I don’t know, I think everyone can have their preference, but I don’t necessarily put one that much higher above the other.
00:45:10:41 – 00:45:31:55
Agent Palmer
But I think we, as fans of Dayton, get to have a chip on their shoulder because we we are the, the, the, the lesser like we’re not as vocal for which I guess falls in line with the author himself, where we’re, we’re kind of like, very excited to talk about any piece of it when we find out someone else is a fan.
00:45:32:00 – 00:45:33:27
Agent Palmer
And.
00:45:33:32 – 00:46:02:16
Rob Mallows
Yeah, I think that’s absolutely right. I think it is. It’s the very it’s the very fact that, well, on the one hand, Ian Fleming, the reason that Ian Fleming and James Bond is still massively popular online and globally is, of course, that the the, the books may have stopped, but, you know, he’s had a film canon lasting almost 60 years or just over 60 years that’s kept him in the public consciousness.
00:46:02:27 – 00:46:28:26
Rob Mallows
Yeah. John McCarry, has is the, I guess, at the more literary end of spy fiction. Again, he has had numerous films, to, to, bring his works to new audiences. And of course, he was writing until very late in. No. I think one probably factor that maybe reflects why of the triumvirate of Carré Fleming and Dayton.
00:46:28:26 – 00:47:17:28
Rob Mallows
Dayton maybe sits third, which is still creditable. Yeah. It’s because of the, violent Ward and his last full length novel. He’s essentially been in retirement. And that was probably that’s at least 30 years or so. And aside from things like The Ipcress File, TV series, which came out a few years ago and, SGB about 6 or 7 years ago, his books would be reissued, but there’s no, it’s he’s essentially fallen out of favor a little bit falling out of consciousness, which is not, unsurprising given the fact that, like I say, he’s, with when you’ve when you’ve produced a bit of work as he
00:47:17:28 – 00:47:36:54
Rob Mallows
has, I think you’re, entitled to sort of put your pen down and say, wait, let’s see. I’m probably done. You know, he’s got, two sons, you’ve got lots of grandchildren. He’s been in retirement for 30 years. Fine. I mean, that’s good, but of course, it does mean that, in terms of the public consciousness, there’s.
00:47:36:58 – 00:47:54:44
Rob Mallows
But now, of course, I mean, I think one what’s an interesting thing I’ve often think about the moment he’s, he just turned 94 early on this year. So inevitably at some point, the next one would hope not too soon. But, you know, he will join, like Harry in the great author’s library in the sky, so to speak.
00:47:54:48 – 00:48:16:46
Rob Mallows
And at that point, you know, that that I guess that more probably brings to an end the sort of golden era of, of spy fiction. And also and I said, I think on a personal level, as somebody who’s enjoyed his work and communicates, I’m very fortunate now, actually, through the website, to be able in a position where, I keep in touch with it regularly by email.
00:48:16:48 – 00:48:58:10
Rob Mallows
So it’s very and he’s he’s a very interesting man to chat with. I mean, we, I had an email with him a few weeks ago. He asked me he was, you know, asking, what are your opinions on Bismarck? I guess because he’d read something about or whatever. But, when he does, eventually shuffle off this mortal coil, you know, I think it it will mark the end of that period in British fiction when there were big beasts roaming around, you know, and of course, this was, his in the carrier and John Ian Fleming’s radio show that, the, the, the great periods were is a pre-Internet age where, you
00:48:58:10 – 00:49:05:09
Rob Mallows
know, books were a thing. People bought books and you consumed books in a very different ways. People read now, yeah.
00:49:05:09 – 00:49:27:18
Agent Palmer
I’d go one step further. I think that there also pre-internet age, in terms of writing about the Cold War in a way where it was still forefront. I mean, like they’re writing about the Cold War before the Wall falls, which means they’re writing about spy fiction in a way that like, I mean, and look at the new James Bond’s look at the new Mission Impossibles.
00:49:27:27 – 00:49:58:03
Agent Palmer
They all have their cell phones. They’re all they all have a guy, a hacker in the chair, like doing stuff. Their heyday for all three of them was two guys talking on a bench, two guys having coffee, two guys in a car, physically going to scout the thing. There was no spy satellite. There was no cell phone. And so I think that there there is also a different pace to the things that they wrote.
00:49:58:17 – 00:50:01:10
Agent Palmer
And it’s it’s refreshing almost.
00:50:01:15 – 00:50:29:12
Rob Mallows
Well, of course, in Dayton’s books, as well as, as you say, the Carey and Fleming and indeed most Great Britain at the time, it was, it was analog rather than digital, but also, of course, it it’s very easy to forget these these days with the Cold War being over 30 years old, 30 years ago. But, I mean, I’m old enough to remember as a child being, you know, the fall of the Berlin Wall and stuff on a child teenager.
00:50:29:16 – 00:50:49:30
Rob Mallows
It was a very different world. And the threat of, you know, global nuclear destruction was very real, particularly in somewhere like around 1983 when Burlingame came out, you know, everything on the nightly news would have been about what was going on in Berlin, what was going on in Poland with solidarity, etc. these things were, very potent.
00:50:49:30 – 00:51:20:08
Rob Mallows
And these were real, real threats which shaped popular, consciousness in the news, agenda and culture in a way. And as you say, I think that, I guess, is probably one of the things that I enjoy about Dayton’s books is, the what the characters. Because, as you say, the world of espionage back then, in real, in reality and in fiction was human centric, Humint, human intelligence, it was all about relationships.
00:51:20:08 – 00:51:47:16
Rob Mallows
And, that’s why I think, the Bernard Sampson novels, I think, my favorite, because ultimately it is a story about relationships and also about a story of betrayal in relationships, not least because, we’re not giving, spoilers away. But one of the main characters, wife, betrays him. Let’s put it in multiple ways.
00:51:47:21 – 00:52:20:19
Rob Mallows
This is Bernard Sampson, the main character. His wife, Fiona. I mean, it’s it’s so it’s a it’s a story about relationships, and it’s a story about organizations. I think that’s the other thing about, I think Dayton’s books is the. Because as somebody who has spent, his whole life working in various different offices, and it’s part of it as a civil servant, the sort of characters like Dickie Cryer is, is Bernard Sampson’s, boss, ostensibly in, the game setting match series.
00:52:20:24 – 00:52:58:30
Rob Mallows
They’re written so well that you recognize that there are people in every walk of life who are, you know, arrogant fools, who are still tense, who are, always looking for the next rung up the ladder sort of thing. And I think one of the reasons why why I, enjoyed, in the Bernard Sampson books is because while Bernard is obviously, a spy, he’s also he’s not no longer at the top of his game, and he’s also happy to confront the sort of, interminable bureaucracy and, that most of us find in our work from time to time.
00:52:58:30 – 00:53:27:43
Rob Mallows
So there’s a sort of, and that doesn’t happen by accident. It’s a combination of having really good plots, really well-wrought characters and the supporting cast that are there, not just because to support the main actor, but to interact with him and to fill him out as a character, so to speak. So yeah, it’s, it’s a, it’s the I think the main thing I think every time I reread them is that Len Dayton’s books are of that time, and that’s a good thing, I think.
00:53:27:57 – 00:54:09:31
Rob Mallows
Not necessarily a bad thing, but it just reflects that. They were written in the 60s, 70s, 80s and early, and early 90s. So they are I mean, nowadays, of course there are, there are there they’re almost coming to the point of nostalgia for me to the when you’re reading about people, going down into a, I mean, every time I read, Burlingame and there’s a, there are in the office of the department where Bernard Sampson works is the place called the Yellow Submarine, which is, a subterranean, office or library, a computer library underneath the Foreign Office where, all the files on the various Soviet agents, including
00:54:09:31 – 00:54:37:01
Rob Mallows
Eric Stennis, his, adversary in the books. They’re all kept on, you know, things like microfiche and, floppy disks and, reel to reel discs. You know, it’s, because nowadays we’ve got, with all of us carrying around supercomputers in our pockets, it’s very difficult to forget that, well, technology has always been a part of the spy game, you know, at times, the technology’s been quite rudimentary.
00:54:37:06 – 00:55:00:59
Rob Mallows
As you say. Things like dead drops, leaving a sort of, a coded message on a stone or a certain park bench, etc.. You did that because there’s no there was no other way to get a secret message to somebody behind the Iron Curtain, you know? So it can feel a little quaint, but equally, you know, it’s, it just reflects the fact that the, that was the world in which, the characters that he wrote about, existed.
00:55:00:59 – 00:55:21:02
Rob Mallows
And I think one of the reasons why, even though it was, unlike Ian Fleming, Dayton was never, anything to do with the spy world at all. It’s written to a degree where you you get the impression, or at least the feeling that he must have known something. Yeah, yeah, but of course he didn’t. He? Well, I think he was in the 60s and 70s.
00:55:21:02 – 00:55:46:18
Rob Mallows
He was seen as a certainly as he got more famous and more, wealthy, he was able to connect with more interesting people. He is like a sponge, especially in terms of he, he met they met some really interesting people. He met some really nefarious people in Soho in the 60s. He would have, you know, he he would have had, people around his dinner table in the 60s.
00:55:46:23 – 00:56:11:55
Rob Mallows
Oh, I think including from, you know, government and espionage, etc.. He, you knew in, you know, various magazine articles and various interviews. He’s given this up. He’s he’s, he’s been behind the Iron Curtain many times. He’s talked to Nazi, generals. He’s talked to, KGB agents. He’s, he’s he’s obviously met some fascinating people.
00:56:11:55 – 00:56:34:08
Rob Mallows
And I guess all these things are squirreled away in the back of the head with his mind, and they end up in characters. Like, I guess any good also does is is what every relationship, every meeting he has is. There’s a kernel of something there for a future character.
00:56:34:13 – 00:57:03:56
Agent Palmer
There are aspects of reading and collecting that just make them wonderful pursuits, but I think we need to remove the stigma of being late to the party, and that is somehow a bad thing. We all probably come late, as Rob and I discussed to authors, but it’s not limited to that because of the amount of books published, movies released, series available, and while with books, it seems more accepting to come late to the party, we need to normalize not being up on all of it.
00:57:04:00 – 00:57:22:20
Agent Palmer
It’s impossible for someone, even with no job, and all the time in the world, to be completely up on everything. And so we get there when we get there, and those around us should be happy we’ve arrived at all. It’s no small thing to say you’ve made a new friend, but because of our respective blogs, Rob and I have become friends.
00:57:22:25 – 00:57:57:39
Agent Palmer
Our online communities overlap and we’re supportive of each other. We’ve arrived and when we arrived wasn’t in junior high or elementary school. It’s whenever we arrived. This is the good of the internet. This is what it can do when it’s not just about making sales or just about getting clicks. So while it appears that neither Rob nor I can abide in unread book, which means we have our own work cut out for us, we do have plenty of suggestions for you on each of our sites and appearances on other podcast episodes.
00:57:57:54 – 00:58:22:21
Agent Palmer
And speaking of, do check out Spy Prairie with Shane Whaley if you enjoyed this conversation, because there’s probably something over there you’ll enjoy just as much, and you’ll not just find Rob over there. You may even find my voice on occasion, so I’ll leave you with this one question who is your favorite spy? Thanks for listening to the Palmer Files episode 107.
00:58:22:21 – 00:58:45:00
Agent Palmer
And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact myself and my guest, Rob Mallows, in the show notes. There you can find a link to Rob’s website Deighton Dossier. Again, that’s D E I G H T O N Dossier dot net for all of your lend.
00:58:45:00 – 00:59:09:10
Agent Palmer
Dayton, Bernard Simpson and Harry Palmer needs the music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent Palmer, dot com.
00:59:09:15 – 00:59:17:05
Unknown
You.
00:59:17:10 – 00:59:45:01
Unknown
See? You.
00:59:45:06 – 00:59:47:27
Agent Palmer
All right, Rob, do you have one final question for me?
00:59:47:31 – 00:59:58:19
Rob Mallows
It is quite a simple question. Is is there a book you’ve never got to finish? You’ve started, and you thought at some point, you know, I’m going to have to put this down.
00:59:58:24 – 01:00:26:12
Agent Palmer
So the, the there isn’t, but that’s because I will torture myself like I’ve met people that are like, I didn’t like the book. I put it down, I’m done. Or like, I read four paragraphs and I wasn’t into it and I could put it down. I’m. I’m not that way. I don’t I’ve, I people talk about hate watching shows.
01:00:26:17 – 01:00:40:01
Agent Palmer
I will hate read to finish a book. If I opened it up, I’m going to finish it. And so those take a lot longer to read.
01:00:40:05 – 01:00:42:16
Rob Mallows
But yeah, I, I.
01:00:42:20 – 01:01:03:48
Agent Palmer
I’m sure there even in the things that like, I didn’t like that I was reading, like specifically the one that comes to mind is there was a book like, I, I don’t think it’s any shock that I consider myself like a nerd or a geek. I it’s a badge of it’s always been a badge of honor to me.
01:01:03:48 – 01:01:31:26
Agent Palmer
Like, I’ve never seen the derogatory. I understand the derogatory side, but I don’t. I don’t take it that way. There was a lot of these, books. I don’t, I, I wish I could remember the title now, and I reviewed it and basically it was written by a popular student, like it was written by somebody who has never been marginalized in their entire life talking, trying to understand what it was like to be a nerd and a geek.
01:01:31:26 – 01:01:56:26
Agent Palmer
And I’m like, you’re not the person to write this. Like, you just don’t understand. Like you’re making observations that don’t exist for anybody who was ever called that as a, as a, as a, as a, as a kid or a young adult. And so I think I threw the book across my room at one point. I was so frustrated, but I had to finish it because I was like, is there a redeeming quality in this and that?
01:01:56:26 – 01:02:04:45
Agent Palmer
That’s kind of one of the reasons why I don’t put things down. No, there was not anything redeeming in it at all. But it was like, but I did finish it.
01:02:04:58 – 01:02:25:32
Rob Mallows
Well, I’m glad to hear that, because I, I’m, I was, in asking the question, I was trying to think of it. Is there a book I, I never put down? None. This brings to mind, I know there was a classic book. I certainly think it took me a very long time to read, and probably in stages was Lord of the rings.
01:02:25:41 – 01:02:57:34
Rob Mallows
I mean, I’m probably had that book as a, as a teenager, you know, probably over a period, maybe about a year, year and a half or so. You know, I read it in small chunks. But, I do agree with you in the sense of I think whatever the book is, whoever the author is, if they’ve taken the time and the trouble to, you know, write something, I think, if not for any reason other than as a courtesy to them, I think it deserves, I guess if a book is really turgid, I think it’s probably legitimate to put it down.
01:02:57:34 – 01:03:16:47
Rob Mallows
But if it if, you know, I think it deserves a good, a good crack at it. And I think as a reader, you are the author of that. And I was just thinking, there’s one what’s actually turned out to be one of my favorite books in the end. It’s a book called The Kindly Ones by a French author called Jonathan Little.
01:03:16:52 – 01:03:40:40
Rob Mallows
And when I tell you it’s a set of 1100 pages, it is literally 100 pages. Take it is like a brick and is a very tense, intense, dense, novel about the experiences of an SS officer in the Eastern Front. And it’s only has 1100 pages. It’s a but it only has three chapters, so it’s not set up easy reading.
01:03:40:40 – 01:04:06:03
Rob Mallows
And that’s a book that I’ve probably got about maybe 150 pages in it and then stormed, and, for some reason, I think it sort of languished on my shelf. And then eventually, there was a part of me felt, you know, almost like an affront that I couldn’t finish this book. And of course, the, when I did eventually, I think probably I found a reason to pick it up again after my show and, you know, stuck with it.
01:04:06:03 – 01:04:26:08
Rob Mallows
And it’s causes, the the moral of the story is, if you stick with things, kids, they eventually can. Often you the pay dirt is there because you get to the end of this novel and like no other novel I’ve ever written, you know, you had a sense that you had gone through this experience, and it’s a terrible there’s there are no redeeming features in this camp.
01:04:26:08 – 01:04:34:36
Rob Mallows
The main character’s life. But the storytelling is fantastic. And the arc at this story is, yeah, this is me, but you really feel my goodness. I have read the book.
01:04:34:36 – 01:05:00:25
Agent Palmer
The closest thing I’ve got to that is, I read The Magus by Jonathan Fowles and I think the through the first third of the book, I was thoroughly lost. I’m like, I have what, like, just like it almost felt like we were boxing and I just could not stand on my two feet. I just kept getting hit and I was woozy.
01:05:00:37 – 01:05:23:01
Agent Palmer
And then like, by about the halfway mark, it’s just for some reason started to click. And by the end of it I loved it. But like it’s. And so unlike that other book that I hated all the way through, like this one had an arc where I was like, I’m still I’ve no what? Like just I haven’t. Why?
01:05:23:01 – 01:05:36:14
Agent Palmer
What’s like I like I would put the book down after reading a a chapter and be like, what? Why? What just happened? But like, you just you sometimes you just have to trust the process.
01:05:36:19 – 01:05:54:34
Rob Mallows
Perseverance. Often pays off. I think as a as a reader of anything, I think you have to be, if you pick up a book and start it, as I say, I think, you know, unless you’re very unlucky, there’s always something you can get out of a book, even if it’s just a sense of satisfaction knowing you read plowed through something was pretty turgid.
01:05:54:34 – 01:05:56:58
Rob Mallows
At least. At least you did it, you know? Yeah.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).