Episode 48 features Kate Wallinga host of Ignorance Was Bliss, a podcast that has transformed over its lifetime into a show, much like this one, full of people’s stories.
We talk about content, community, explore how our shows are made, and much much more.
During the episode we cover:
- Collecting stories
- Authenticity
- Filters and Platforms
- Creating content
- Community
- “The Void”
- Interview v. Conversation/Discussion
- And much more…
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:29:04
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com Len Deighton second Sampson trilogy gets its hook in quickly. Entertainment. Listening. Finding the balance between music and podcasts and my conversation. Last episode with the Talking professor convinced me it’s time to reread Tolkien again. So the reading list just got longer. This is The Palmer Files episode 48 with Kate Wallinga, host of Ignorance Was Bliss, a podcast that has transformed over its lifetime into a show much like this one full of people’s stories.
00:00:29:09 – 00:01:08:04
Agent Palmer
We talk about content, community, explore how our shows are made, and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show!
00:01:08:09 – 00:01:31:58
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 48th episode is Kate Wallinga, host of Ignorance Was Bliss. What you are about to hear is an honest conversation between two content creators about community, authenticity, and so much more. We cover process, losing episodes, losing episodes, balancing creating content with life.
00:01:31:58 – 00:02:00:41
Agent Palmer
And also consider a few what ifs. Before we get going, remember that if you want to discuss the episode as you listen or afterwards, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer. My guest Kate at IWD podcast. That’s I b podcast, and this show at the Palmer Files IWD podcast will also lead you to Kate’s Instagram and Facebook pages for all of the episodes, links and additional information, you can also visit IWD podcast.com.
00:02:00:46 – 00:02:20:30
Agent Palmer
Email can be sent to this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember your home for all things Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com. So let’s lessen our ignorance with a few stories, shall we?
00:02:20:35 – 00:02:34:30
Agent Palmer
Kate, you and I tweeted that was our first introduction about authenticity of personal branding. So I’m going to start with something simple. What is your personal brand?
00:02:34:35 – 00:02:36:37
Kate Wallinga
Oh, that. You think that’s simple, do you?
00:02:36:42 – 00:02:37:40
Agent Palmer
I do, I do.
00:02:37:46 – 00:03:03:19
Kate Wallinga
Okay, okay. Well, I mean, my elevator pitch is where that sort of starts from. Okay. And that is that I am a former forensic psychologist and crisis clinician. I’m home on disability now, and I collect stories. So I’m not a true crime podcaster. I used to be. And I went through recovery. And now I talk to whoever is willing to talk to me.
00:03:03:32 – 00:03:10:49
Kate Wallinga
And sometimes it is collecting stories about my guest and sometimes it’s about something out in the world.
00:03:10:54 – 00:03:41:16
Agent Palmer
So in regards to our initial conversation, authenticity, you are who you are. Is that I’m. I mean, I heard a couple shows and on Twitter you seem to be just not trying to go for like the fad because we all know. Right? I think everybody on social media or in general that to creator knows like I can write, I can I can refine this to try and be viral or I can just be real.
00:03:41:21 – 00:03:46:21
Kate Wallinga
I’m so impressively lazy with that. Like, I don’t.
00:03:46:21 – 00:03:51:58
Agent Palmer
Think it’s lazy. I don’t I want to give you credit because I don’t think it’s lazy.
00:03:52:03 – 00:03:58:03
Kate Wallinga
Well, there are times where, you know, it depends. It depends on the circumstance. So the.
00:03:58:03 – 00:03:59:26
Agent Palmer
More.
00:03:59:31 – 00:04:24:52
Kate Wallinga
Un filtered it is, the more you’re not filtered. That’s not the right word, but the more public it is without any barriers. So for instance Twitter. Yeah I tend to be a little more careful in terms of I don’t share much about my family life. I don’t share much about if I’m having a bad day because Twitter, it’s all ephemeral.
00:04:24:52 – 00:04:43:43
Kate Wallinga
Anyway, it’s gone is second, and I view Twitter’s promotional. Okay, so I try to be very true to who I am. That being said, who I am is kind of a goofball a lot of the time, and I spend a lot of time climbing up on soap boxes and then realizing, how did I get up on this soapbox?
00:04:43:43 – 00:04:47:39
Kate Wallinga
This is strange. So that’s my Twitter persona.
00:04:47:40 – 00:05:15:51
Agent Palmer
I don’t I don’t think that, see, but that seems accurate to who I am. Like, I, I want the interaction. I enjoy Twitter for the back and forth that it used to be at one time, and I think at times it still is. But I also feel like I take the easy way out because, you know, I don’t know, the cliche from movies is like, if nothing else, tell the truth because it’s the easiest to remember.
00:05:15:56 – 00:05:34:37
Agent Palmer
Like, that’s that’s my persona as whether it’s Agent Palmer or Jason like it, it doesn’t matter who it is. It’s just so much easier to be like, this is what I think. So this is who I am and not try to craft something for likes. I guess.
00:05:34:42 – 00:05:55:24
Kate Wallinga
Well, I’m it. For me it’s more about when I’m on Twitter I don’t. So I have I have a number of health issues you know see above. Right. Being on disability. Right. I don’t tend to unload those a lot on Twitter. I don’t tend to explain if I’m having a bad day. I tend to just ease back.
00:05:55:37 – 00:06:05:49
Kate Wallinga
Okay, from Twitter and not. Whereas on my Facebook group, which is private. Yeah, I let anybody in. It’s just private so that I can be more unguarded.
00:06:05:54 – 00:06:36:00
Agent Palmer
Okay. I mean, that’s fair. I mean, I treat them both equally like I would. In fairness, I’m pretty sure my mother’s following me on every social network I’m on. So I always tweet or Facebook post or whatever. As if my mother’s watching. Now, look, she’s not okay. She’s probably listening to this right now laughing. Because while she may be following me on all those platforms, she doesn’t see half of what I post.
00:06:36:05 – 00:07:03:29
Agent Palmer
But I presume that the one time I’m like, my mother will never see this is the one time she’s guaranteed to read it. So I always tweet as if she’s there. But I wonder about authenticity because I’ve been I will, we’ll say digital consultant, which sounds like a bunch of buzzwords and it really is. But people will be like, hey, can you help me?
00:07:03:33 – 00:07:26:21
Agent Palmer
You know, launch X, Y, or Z? And I’m like, sure this is what you have to do. And they they go, it sounds so easy. How come you have all the blueprints? Like, you should write this. You should write that. I go, what? It’s it’s a game to be sure. Like it really is being a content creator. It’s a game.
00:07:26:26 – 00:07:54:27
Agent Palmer
But you you can play a game different ways. And at the moment I’m not playing to win. I’m. I’m playing to be me. I’m playing for the fun of it. I could easily audit my own blog and go, well, all of these blog titles need to be more clickbaity all of them. Because I tell you, I liked this book.
00:07:54:34 – 00:08:17:43
Agent Palmer
This is my review. That that that’s the that’s the title, not you’re never going to believe what this author wrote on page 75. Click to find out. Like I, I, I know that that will get me more views. I cannot in good conscience write that headline or that tweet for that matter.
00:08:17:48 – 00:08:48:11
Kate Wallinga
I mean, to me, there’s different things. I mean, for some people, that is their authenticity, right? Is to garner attention. Is what they authentically need. And so okay. Yeah. Fair enough. I don’t structure myself that way. I don’t I there’s a, there’s a meme that I’ve seen several times, people sent it to me because I, it reminds them of me and it’s something to the effect of don’t screw with a woman in her 40s.
00:08:48:11 – 00:09:16:08
Kate Wallinga
She’s seen everything and she doesn’t give a shit. And that is extraordinarily on brand. Like, I. I don’t care what other people think of me, I, I would like to be liked because I’m human. But more importantly, I want to not be ashamed of who what I’ve done or what I’ve said. And so to me, that’s what authenticity is, is bringing whatever I really am.
00:09:16:12 – 00:09:25:03
Kate Wallinga
That being said, yes, it’s all a game. And they’re different game. They’re different. Playing board okay, Jesus Christ words, you know what I’m saying?
00:09:25:05 – 00:09:28:16
Agent Palmer
Like you know, there’s there’s there’s different fields of play.
00:09:28:21 – 00:09:53:26
Kate Wallinga
Yeah. Exactly. And so Twitter has a more promotional public side to it. I can see who my followers are by Twitter name, but that doesn’t mean I know who they are. There are some people in my extended family and my husband’s extended family and so on that I would I would prefer not to share certain things with.
00:09:53:33 – 00:10:17:24
Kate Wallinga
So I’m more guarded on Twitter and I’m more promotional on Twitter. But that’s still authentic. That’s just fewer facets of me on Facebook. I’m a lot more like, you’re you are warts and all, you know, because but that’s in that’s why it’s a private group so that I can just say whatever. And I mean, my my 21 year old is one of my mods.
00:10:17:24 – 00:10:35:02
Kate Wallinga
And so the whole idea of like, be careful because your families. Yeah. Good to see it. Like my, my 21 year old daughter is a mod in my grandmother’s in the group, and once in a while she’s like, you really had nice cleavage today. Like thanks, grandma. Thanks.
00:10:35:02 – 00:11:01:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I, I’m, I’m curious how this all shakes down. And when you talk about, like, a curated, community, Facebook is obviously the most obvious, but, you know, I started a discord not too long ago, and I kept it curated for a while, but then it was like, I, I want to see what happens when this grows.
00:11:01:56 – 00:11:27:07
Agent Palmer
So I have to you have to be kind of trusting of the community you curate and go, all right, well, let me hope none of you brings the asshole to the party. There’s going to eventually be one. There always is. But let’s see how long we can go with you. Bring a friend and you bring a friend. And maybe it’ll just all be friendly people.
00:11:27:12 – 00:11:57:48
Agent Palmer
I don’t know, we haven’t found the asshole yet, thankfully, but I’m sure it will happen. Right. And. And you know what? Maybe it’s me. Maybe I’m the asshole like that. That’s a possible. That’s definitely possible. Although I am very much. And it’s weird. I’m not. I’m not, not myself on the discord which bears my name. Right. But, I do try in I I’m, I’m very much a museum curator.
00:11:57:48 – 00:12:21:09
Agent Palmer
They’re trying to, like, start conversations, not necessarily as an instigator, which, about 5 or 6 years ago in the heyday of Twitter DMs like as that was the de facto communities I was in some that were like maybe 20 people, 30 people. And there I was, the instigator because I felt like it was fun and it wasn’t my community.
00:12:21:09 – 00:12:48:25
Agent Palmer
I was a part of the community. So I was like, well, this isn’t mine. I can I could shake some shit up, man. Like, let’s have some fun. Like, sir, I know you liked that movie, but I don’t think it’s that good, you know? And then just wait, right like that and you know what you’re doing when you say those things, and whether it’s in a private channel or it’s public, you know what you’re doing.
00:12:48:25 – 00:13:11:03
Agent Palmer
Or at least I did. I feel like nobody, nobody trolls unknowingly. Right? I think that’s that’s apparent. So I’m curious how it all shakes down. Do you do you feel any pressure, for the promotional side of things for, like, I can’t just share my link. I have to engage.
00:13:11:03 – 00:13:31:49
Kate Wallinga
Otherwise, no. It’s more that I feel pressure to self-promote. I feel awkward, self-promoting. And so I have to remember to do that. I have to remember that’s what this is for, and I, I released typically about three episodes a week. Okay. And so there’s a certain degree where I’m like, I’m so sorry, but yep, here’s another new episode.
00:13:31:49 – 00:13:52:23
Kate Wallinga
Here we go again. And another and another. But that’s what Twitter is for me. Yeah, I’ve never engaged deeply on Twitter. There’s I’m in a couple of group chats and that’s fine. On Facebook, really the only reason I go to Facebook now is my own group. And there I’m definitely less. I feel less of that pressure now.
00:13:52:23 – 00:14:14:02
Kate Wallinga
For a long time, I had a sense of pressure for starting conversations and making sure things moved and, you know, dropping a prompt in the group, the host, you know. Yeah, exactly. And that and it it’s it’s very clear that if I make a post as opposed to anybody else in the group, I have about 600 people in my Facebook group.
00:14:14:06 – 00:14:38:04
Kate Wallinga
And if anybody else in the group makes a post, they will get less engagement than I will. Okay, just by the nature of being the host. And so there there’s also a little bit more of there are people I actively dislike in my Facebook group, and I know, I know that half a dozen people just check their phone to figure out if it’s them.
00:14:38:09 – 00:14:55:05
Kate Wallinga
The answer is, if we have ever exchanged texts, we’re probably fine. But there are people that I just. I don’t like them. But I’ve made it a rule for myself that you and I may not be buddies, but as long as you behave appropriately in the group, you can stay in the group.
00:14:55:10 – 00:14:57:30
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I think that that’s fair.
00:14:57:32 – 00:15:10:23
Kate Wallinga
The but so it puts me in a different like I’m not among friends. Do you know what I mean? I’m among listeners and I don’t like the word fans that that feels off putting. That feels disingenuous. So I don’t I don’t like that.
00:15:10:25 – 00:15:16:42
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Fans, feels like, fans feels like celebrity.
00:15:16:46 – 00:15:17:12
Kate Wallinga
Yeah. I don’t.
00:15:17:12 – 00:15:17:36
Agent Palmer
Like them.
00:15:17:37 – 00:15:18:43
Kate Wallinga
And distancing.
00:15:18:43 – 00:15:39:30
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I, I mean at this point because I am a blogger, like I’m a cross platform, right? I’m a blogger, I’m a podcaster. I’m hoping that the people listening to this have at least checked out my site. I mean, I, I talk about it at the beginning of every episode. They’re at least aware that I have one.
00:15:39:37 – 00:15:42:55
Agent Palmer
People that only listen are aware it exists.
00:15:43:00 – 00:16:12:38
Kate Wallinga
There are times in my Facebook group which is titled Ignorance was Bliss Asylum, meaning both where you might hang out if you’re a little unhinged, and also safe space. Yeah, right. There are times where I’m like, you, you guys remember I have a podcast, right? Like that’s right. Because there’s times where I’m like, we have gone so far off the rails because it’s it, it’s very me in a, easily distracted, stupid humor memes.
00:16:12:38 – 00:16:34:15
Kate Wallinga
Like, if I’m having a bad day, I don’t want people to. They’re they are me. I want people to send me the most inappropriate memes they can find. Okay. All right. Like, that’s that’s my idea of how how we cheer each other. But at the same time, if somebody steps in and says, I’m having a really bad day for real, like, I just lost a family member or, you know, whatever, something big bad happened.
00:16:34:20 – 00:17:02:55
Kate Wallinga
The group seems to know when to shut up and and provide support. But like one of my favorite recurring threads in my group is something called the Anonymous reprimands. Because I don’t want necessarily to say, Jason, you did a thing. Okay? I want to make you nervous. I’m. I’m a mother of four children. Yeah. And I, I don’t want them to fear me, okay?
00:17:02:59 – 00:17:07:58
Kate Wallinga
But I want them to be nervous about making me unhappy.
00:17:08:03 – 00:17:10:26
Agent Palmer
So hold on. So you’re going to so you’re going to.
00:17:10:27 – 00:17:39:52
Kate Wallinga
So we have these anonymous reprimands. So like yesterday I started one like okay, I’m having a week because yesterday was a day and a half. And I was like, all right, it’s time. Anonymous reprimands threat. And so the first one up there was like, you flounced out of this, this discord server, which was not an airport, but you announced your departure anyway, and now you’re asking me whether you’re missed and I’m.
00:17:39:57 – 00:17:51:05
Kate Wallinga
No, no, you’re not missed. And also to the other person, your curiosity is not worth the abandonment of my moral compass.
00:17:51:05 – 00:17:52:00
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:17:52:05 – 00:18:09:07
Kate Wallinga
You know, things like that. And it’s always worded vaguely enough that there are times where my husband would be like, look, I know you’re not talking to me, but I. Every time I read one of your anonymous reprimands, I stop and I think, like, could she maybe be talking to me? I’m like, excellent.
00:18:09:12 – 00:18:19:41
Agent Palmer
Yeah. You’re trying to make sure that you can encompass all four kids without calling one out, because then the reciprocal damage will be that they’ll all be a little bit better in theory.
00:18:19:52 – 00:18:38:40
Kate Wallinga
Yeah. And just you mean but anybody, you know, it doesn’t matter whether it’s kids or friends or strangers on the internet or Tennessee or whatever. It’s just it’s not as important to me to name names as it is to express a given frustration or.
00:18:38:45 – 00:18:39:23
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:18:39:28 – 00:18:40:09
Kate Wallinga
Irritation or.
00:18:40:09 – 00:18:44:36
Agent Palmer
Whatever. Time to get it out instead of letting it fester inside where.
00:18:44:41 – 00:18:53:14
Kate Wallinga
And that is something I will do on my Facebook group without a whole lot of self-censorship or editing. I would never do that on Twitter.
00:18:53:19 – 00:19:22:58
Agent Palmer
No. That’s fair. I mean, you’ve, you’ve it’s it’s the community you’ve got. And while well, I see Twitter slightly differently than most, mainly because I’ve got I’ve gotten lucky. Look, I’m, I hid behind Michael Caine for the first eight years of my Twitter existence. Right. Like I was Agent Palmer at Agent Palmer with a picture of Michael Caine portraying Agent Palmer.
00:19:23:02 – 00:19:48:25
Agent Palmer
For the first eight years, I had that Twitter handle, right. Like it wasn’t until after I launched this podcast and my intro to the first episode was I’m Jason Sturges, also known as Agent Palmer, that I changed my name on Twitter to be Jason Stern. Nick, Agent Palmer at Agent Palmer and put my own face on my avatar.
00:19:48:25 – 00:20:16:38
Agent Palmer
That was a first for me, and it I like. I wasn’t hiding like the account. If you couldn’t go like before and after, like nothing changed, right? My language is still the same. I like the same things. I hate the same things. I interact with the same people. It’s all the same. But it was a bit like, this is the real me, I’m not I what I wasn’t hiding, right?
00:20:16:38 – 00:20:23:33
Agent Palmer
It’s like. It’s like having a mask of yourself on and taking it off and revealing yourself.
00:20:23:35 – 00:20:24:11
Kate Wallinga
To me.
00:20:24:11 – 00:20:26:42
Agent Palmer
You know, like it’s still me, right? Like.
00:20:26:47 – 00:20:47:50
Kate Wallinga
But I never used Twitter before. I had a podcast. Like, I had a Twitter account, that I just never used. And it still exists out there in the world, and I haven’t posted on it in three years. So I’ve had my show for about three and a half years. And, you know, I took I studied marketing some in college before I realized I hated it.
00:20:47:55 – 00:21:13:44
Kate Wallinga
And so I know about things like branding and like, you know, adding visuals, adding music, adding, you know, using a pinch tweet for a certain purpose and explaining what you are. And in a line and that, like, I know how to build a Twitter profile. Yeah. And so my Twitter has always only been my logo. That’s that’s always I haven’t changed that.
00:21:13:48 – 00:21:22:12
Kate Wallinga
But I had never before starting a podcast, I had never taken a selfie because I’m old and get off my lawn and you.
00:21:22:12 – 00:21:30:01
Agent Palmer
Don’t have to. Look, I’m I’m not that much younger than you, and I don’t want to deal with the selfie.
00:21:30:10 – 00:21:40:40
Kate Wallinga
Well, I don’t like it. Okay. But here’s what happened is in my Facebook group, it was the first Christmas season, of having started my show.
00:21:40:49 – 00:21:41:36
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:21:41:41 – 00:21:45:14
Kate Wallinga
And I, I was still more true crime than not at that point.
00:21:45:18 – 00:21:45:59
Agent Palmer
All right.
00:21:46:03 – 00:22:11:35
Kate Wallinga
But still, there was a tendency to connect in a tendency to. I want to tell the why. All right. You know, like I said, forensic psychologist. I’m not about I’m not a journalist. I’m not about the narrative. I want to explain more about why and how things happened. And I was starting to get, you know, this was, about nine months to eight months in to having created the Facebook group, and it was starting to get some of its own traction.
00:22:11:35 – 00:22:22:55
Kate Wallinga
People were starting to post on their own and interact more, and it was less daily effort to make it happen. And I was realizing, though, that there were a lot of people that were alone that podcasts were their friends.
00:22:23:10 – 00:22:25:14
Agent Palmer
Sure. Yeah, 100%.
00:22:25:19 – 00:22:52:00
Kate Wallinga
And so it was whatever day it you know, it was a Saturday. I know, because somebody came up with Saturday selfies. And I was like, that’s really cute. And I hate cute, but okay. And that’s what they’re still called now. And every Saturday we run a selfie thread in my group, which I actually have to post on Friday nights, because if I don’t, then I wake up on Saturday morning with seven different selfie thread posts and I’m like, whoa, okay, it’s not just one.
00:22:52:05 – 00:23:24:56
Kate Wallinga
And so I had to get used to taking selfies pretty quickly because I had taken one, I was blitzed. I mean, the selfie is me sitting on my kitchen floor with one of my kids in my lap. And I’ve had I had been just snacking on jello shots for hours, is what I had been doing, and that is what I had to do in order to get myself in the mindset of taking a selfie, because I was so uncomfortable with the concept and I used to work as a photographer, but doing it myself with my own phone, I was like, this is weird, but people loved it.
00:23:24:56 – 00:23:51:49
Agent Palmer
But, but turning the camera on yourself is a different proposition. Like I, I’ve gone through some older photos of late and I’m not in a lot of photos. I take a lot of photos. I’m not in a lot of photos. And in college I have a ton of photos of other people. I think maybe once or twice somebody took the camera and took a picture of me.
00:23:51:54 – 00:24:07:04
Agent Palmer
There are a few pictures of me in my actual college yearbooks here and there. Right? Other than that, like, there’s not really evidence outside of the diploma. And even then, you know, was I really.
00:24:07:04 – 00:24:08:15
Kate Wallinga
There?
00:24:08:19 – 00:24:21:46
Agent Palmer
Who knows. But like, I’m, I’m, I’m very much more comfortable behind the camera than in front of it. And it doesn’t matter if the front of it allows me to take a picture of myself. I don’t want to look I.
00:24:21:47 – 00:24:42:55
Kate Wallinga
Well, and that’s the thing is, I. I don’t I’m better at it now. I’m more relaxed with it now. But what what happened was I posted that first one and it got this huge amount of interaction, okay, of other people posting their selfies and I, I early on I used to go through and comment on every single one.
00:24:43:00 – 00:25:15:50
Kate Wallinga
Now it depends on how many there are and and you know, now one of my Patreon perks is a weekly drawing for who gets to choose the theme. Okay for that that week, you know, like it’s become a thing, it’s become this whole thing. And so I sometimes I’m more engaged than others when it comes to the commenting, but just people, it wasn’t I don’t think, in my group specifically, it’s not an Instagram style selfie.
00:25:15:54 – 00:25:24:57
Kate Wallinga
It’s not duck lips, it’s not made up. It’s a lot of people who might be considered plain by magazine.
00:25:24:57 – 00:25:28:01
Agent Palmer
Standards, by Instagram standards. Let’s be real. Like.
00:25:28:01 – 00:25:53:03
Kate Wallinga
That’s right. That’s what I’m saying. Yeah, yeah. You know, but it’s real. It’s genuine. And this is, you know, they don’t look like they took 12 different shots to get the right one. Like sometimes 2 or 3 maybe. And that’s it. Let’s go. That’s that’s all. That’s all we’re going with. And and that has forced me now it’s been three years of doing that.
00:25:53:08 – 00:26:14:09
Kate Wallinga
So that’s like what, 150 some odd selfies that I’ve taken. That’s weird. And but there’s a there’s a feeling of like, I want I like seeing my group members. I like seeing their faces and having that proof that there’s somebody out there. I’m not just screaming into the void. And so it feels only fair.
00:26:14:14 – 00:26:14:59
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:26:15:04 – 00:26:17:12
Kate Wallinga
That I show myself.
00:26:17:17 – 00:26:43:10
Agent Palmer
Do you feel ignoring the social media aspects, at least for the moment, when you’re when you’re creating your show, do you not feel that that is also screaming into the void a bit? I mean, obviously you have your own community, but aside from that, you’re still putting this content out into the world for anybody. And like the world doesn’t shout back very often.
00:26:43:14 – 00:26:46:07
Kate Wallinga
I get a fair amount of engagement.
00:26:46:14 – 00:26:47:00
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:26:47:04 – 00:27:13:02
Kate Wallinga
I mean, that’s that’s the true crime thing is that true crime has a lot of listeners, a lot of engagement. I actually lost listeners when I left True Crime. Which is fine. It’s not. I don’t have anything against it. Yeah, I have things against it in conceptual ways, but it’s more about for me, it wasn’t right for me to remain in this one community when there were so many other communities that I wanted to be a part of.
00:27:13:07 – 00:27:54:34
Kate Wallinga
I’m an organizer. I like to be connected. I also like to be behind the camera. And so it becomes this give and take of I could be the entertainer who is screaming into the microphone, writing up the show notes on the website, posting in my group without giving a whole lot of myself behind it. I could do that, but one of the decisions that I made, part of my brand to bring it back to that, is that I didn’t want to be a therapist, and I didn’t want to be a psychologist, and I could make my specialty was in assessments, and I didn’t want to do that for my show.
00:27:54:34 – 00:28:13:13
Kate Wallinga
I wanted to be able to explain it and talk about it. Okay. But if you’re seeing a therapist when you leave the therapy office, you really shouldn’t know very much more about your therapist than you did when you walked in. Okay? Because it’s not about the therapist. It’s about.
00:28:13:13 – 00:28:32:28
Agent Palmer
You. Yeah, yeah, I got you. I don’t need to know that. My physician got a C in, you know, diagnostics for for, like, you know, can he tell me I have the flu or not? I just need to know that he can do the tests and figure out, you know, how to fix it.
00:28:32:32 – 00:28:51:15
Kate Wallinga
Well, beyond that, you don’t need to know that he had a fight with his wife last night, or that they have four kids, or that they traveled to this, but you know what I mean. You know what I mean. And as well, you know, I, I so I, I the main reason that I am on disability is that I broke my back in 2014.
00:28:51:20 – 00:28:52:57
Kate Wallinga
Don’t do that, by the way. Not fun.
00:28:53:01 – 00:28:53:44
Agent Palmer
All right.
00:28:53:49 – 00:28:57:32
Kate Wallinga
I know, I understand, I just ruined your weekend plans, but I’m telling.
00:28:57:32 – 00:29:01:55
Agent Palmer
Me, you know, I was going to go jump off a cliff without a parachute. Now I’m going to have to.
00:29:01:55 – 00:29:23:13
Kate Wallinga
Make a plan. You know, you have to come up with something. Well, I mean, you could still do it, but I’m telling you, it’s not fun. I make it look fun and sexy, but it’s not okay. But. So I’ve been on disability since 2014, and there was a long time where I was in a very dark place mentally and had a hard time crawling out of that.
00:29:23:13 – 00:29:43:13
Kate Wallinga
And starting the podcast was kind of my way of feeling like I can use this knowledge that I have about how humans work, and how the criminal justice system works, and how the mental health system works, and why would somebody do this? Why? Because there’s a lot of times you people are like, I don’t understand. And I’m like, how can you not understand?
00:29:43:18 – 00:30:03:42
Kate Wallinga
And then I realized, like, they didn’t go to school for as long as I did. Right. Cool, cool. And so I could have created a very luxury, educational style show. Okay. And that felt like work that I wasn’t getting paid for, and I didn’t want to do that.
00:30:03:52 – 00:30:36:27
Agent Palmer
Yeah, and, one of the things that I’m torn about, and I’ve kind of it’s not come up in a while, because amazingly, like as I approach 50 episodes of this show, I still haven’t run out of people, either people I know or people I don’t invite on the show. But there’s a part of me that the the ever student, I guess, is what I’ll call it, that wants to learn things.
00:30:36:32 – 00:31:22:23
Agent Palmer
That’s like, I should really have like a professor, come on. And give me like a one on one lesson and like, I can interact. And that’ll be the conversation. Except that, that might be too formal and I don’t that might be a different show. Right. And so while my show kind of like yours, anything goes, like we’re not really pigeonhole to one type of guest or one topic, but I do feel there’s a it’s I want to it’s not authenticity necessarily, but it’s a feel like, an environment, you know, just it this is laid back conversation.
00:31:22:32 – 00:31:45:33
Agent Palmer
And while we may weave into serious topics, we may weave into hilarity at times. I may be a moron for five minutes. Whatever. It’s always going to stay. Mainly in its lane of this is, I don’t want to say low stakes. I feel like that’s wrong, but it’s just casual conversation.
00:31:45:38 – 00:32:04:31
Kate Wallinga
That’s how I explain it to people when they come on my show is that this is not an interview show. When I discuss, when I say to my husband, for instance, that I’m talking to somebody and I give a night, it’s I’m recording. Yeah, at eight, not I have an interview at eight, because that helps me get in the mindset of this is just a conversation.
00:32:04:31 – 00:32:27:03
Kate Wallinga
We’re just hanging out and shooting the shit. And if somebody like, I ask my guest to introduce themselves right up front so I don’t forget, and that way they get the plug because I think it’s important. Yeah, but you plug your thing, I wouldn’t have a show if my guests weren’t coming on themselves, you know? And so it’s important to me that they plug their thing.
00:32:27:03 – 00:32:45:53
Kate Wallinga
And it’s important to me that we I keep it more centered on the guest. But it’s my show. Yeah. And so I tell personal stories. People who have listened for any amount of time know my children’s names. They know the name of my ghost in my house. Like, I don’t even believe in ghosts. But I have a ghost named Charlotte.
00:32:45:53 – 00:33:26:12
Kate Wallinga
That’s who she is. And, you know, just things like that. Like, for instance, Jesus Christ, for my for my for milestones. For milestone episodes. Yeah. You know, certain number of downloads. I have an Emmy. Okay. And it it was over 100,000 downloads, and I’m spacing it out a little more coming up because I’m tired of myself getting stupid because my husband invented a drinking game, and I got extraordinarily inebriated for the second AMA that I recorded, and I never listen.
00:33:26:13 – 00:33:48:40
Kate Wallinga
I did publish it, but I was like, I am not listening to this. I’m going to do the very basic sound editing to make it listenable. And then I am not. I’m going to pretend this never happened and that I succeeded. So that was two years ago, approximately two and a half years ago, and it wasn’t until six months ago that somebody mentioned a thing.
00:33:48:54 – 00:34:20:55
Kate Wallinga
And I’m trying to figure out how to word this delicately, about my sex life that I had no memory of ever mentioning on Mike at all. And you realize that I told that story several shots in and everybody potentially knows that now. And a part of me was like, oh my God, I’m going to go, I’m going to have to go back and and edit that out of that episode.
00:34:20:55 – 00:34:44:38
Kate Wallinga
And then I was like, no, you know what? No. That’s part of that’s yeah, that’s me. That’s why I was allowed to drive his truck. That’s why right there, you know, and and likewise, I’ve had some really heavy hard stuff happen since starting my show. Yeah. My father died by suicide in 2019, and so I’d been doing my show just over a year at that point.
00:34:44:42 – 00:35:07:09
Kate Wallinga
And it took my feet out from under me. And he lived with us at the time, although he didn’t die in my home and friends of mine, like, I emailed conversations that I had backlogged to friends of mine, and they did the intro for me. Okay, so that I could just publish so that the show kept rolling for a little while.
00:35:07:09 – 00:35:31:21
Kate Wallinga
While I flailed and floundered for a little bit. And it really like it was just such a a stark contrast between how dark and and depressed I got when I when I had to leave my job, when I broke my back, as opposed to this was a worst loss. Yeah, but because I had this thing, it kind of propped me up and I had friends around me that sort of shored me up and kept me through.
00:35:31:26 – 00:35:58:21
Kate Wallinga
And so all of that is who I am, is part of me. And like, right after my dad died, I did. I’ve only done like. I’ve released 327 episodes. So right now, okay, 328, something like that. And of those, maybe five are solo are just me speaking to the mic. And one of them was right after my dad died and I’m a mess.
00:35:58:21 – 00:36:14:46
Kate Wallinga
I’m crying on it and sad and guilty and angry and all of the things all at the same time. And I thought about taking that up. Slow down later because I listened later and I was like, woohoo! That’s that’s raw. But then I was like, you know, no, that’s me.
00:36:14:55 – 00:36:16:33
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Was that’s.
00:36:16:36 – 00:36:17:49
Kate Wallinga
All that’s me.
00:36:17:51 – 00:36:43:22
Agent Palmer
Was not putting out episodes ever an option for you or and and I say this because, you know, I’ve been unemployed for, almost two years, and I never thought I’m not going to do my show. I’m not going to stop writing. I’m going to keep doing because I need something to keep me going to prop me up, as you said.
00:36:43:27 – 00:37:05:57
Agent Palmer
But there are times when I go, maybe it is time to take a break, but I also, you know, it’s a loaded question because on the other side are all of the creative people I know that were like, if you ever you’re like, it’s like sharks. Like if you ever stop publishing, you just good luck. You might as well just stop.
00:37:05:57 – 00:37:31:32
Agent Palmer
Right? And, I get torn into what that is because, you know, and maybe this is a secondary question for you while I’m babbling on before I finish asking the question is, you know, who I am is part of hitting publish on the blog, in the podcast, I might think about not wanting to do the work, but I always end up doing it.
00:37:31:37 – 00:37:53:37
Agent Palmer
And I might think about like, I should take a week off, but I’m always trying to be so far ahead that I can be like, I don’t feel like doing anything this week. I got one in the can. I don’t have to worry about it. Is that ever a consideration for you? Especially when it was, you know, it’s the darkest and you have to pass off some of the help?
00:37:53:42 – 00:38:17:54
Kate Wallinga
Well, I so I have epilepsy is another I’m a medical disaster. Just let’s just put that out there and that is relevant in a couple of ways. And first of all, I was diagnosed about two years before I started my show. And so that’s an odd time in your life to be diagnosed. I was like 36, 38, something like that.
00:38:17:58 – 00:38:50:07
Kate Wallinga
That’s a weird time of life to be diagnosed with epilepsy. Usually it’s more either as infancy or much later in life, or the result of a, you know, a car accident or something like that. For me, it was just literally the middle of the night. I went into a seizure and stayed there for five hours. Okay. Yeah, I don’t do normal things and so while I felt like it was relatively well under control, I wasn’t willing to lean on that and to rely on that.
00:38:50:11 – 00:39:09:21
Kate Wallinga
So one of the rules I set for myself when I started my show was that this has to be more fun than stress. So I’m going to make it a point, if I don’t enjoy. So for my first 2 or 3 episodes are very structured and thought out and planned and I didn’t like it, it wasn’t fun.
00:39:09:26 – 00:39:09:51
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:39:09:53 – 00:39:12:29
Kate Wallinga
And then more.
00:39:12:29 – 00:39:14:29
Agent Palmer
Stressed than fun to start out.
00:39:14:33 – 00:39:40:54
Kate Wallinga
It was those first couple and I was like, I don’t know why people do this. And then my I think it’s my fourth episode. I was talking to another podcaster online and very sort of last minute. She was like, let’s do a collaboration. Like right now, let’s go right now. And I was like, okay. And I had a blast where we did half the episode on my show and half of the episode on her show, and it just worked really well.
00:39:40:54 – 00:40:04:57
Kate Wallinga
And I was like that. That’s what I want to do. So that means now I have to juggle things and I have to find people to come on my show. And, you know, that’s a little iffy sometimes. The day after to back up, even from that a little bit the day after I published my first ever episode, my youngest kiddo ended up in the hospital with an infection.
00:40:04:58 – 00:40:25:51
Kate Wallinga
She had strep I. That’s a thing. Okay, I’m not the only one that has weird medical stuff in my house. And so you know that I spent the weekend with her in the hospital, and then it took a while after that to sort of find my rhythm again. And so I was like, all right, I’m not going to stress over weekly episodes.
00:40:25:51 – 00:40:53:01
Kate Wallinga
I’m not going to do that. And a little bit later down the road, I’ve discovered, okay, I’m not going to worry about every week. I’m going to take breaks when I need to, and then I’ll release two episodes back to back, you know, Monday and Tuesday if I want to, that’s fine. Whatever. A little bit later, I had a collaboration where they wanted to release on a Wednesday, and I pushed really hard because the audio was not great.
00:40:53:06 – 00:41:14:55
Kate Wallinga
And so I pushed really hard to learn some editing stuff I hadn’t done before. I stayed up way late and I ended up throwing myself into a seizure, ended up back in the ICU with that, and I was like, that is my sign from my own brain that says, don’t, don’t do that. Don’t push. I don’t deal well with deadlines.
00:41:14:55 – 00:41:38:18
Kate Wallinga
I don’t deal well with that kind of structure. So taking a break is a different thing for me. I don’t have seasons. I don’t have a release day of the week. I when I am feeling well, when I feel well enough to sit at my computer and edit and focus, then I do and like yesterday I had wanted to.
00:41:38:18 – 00:41:43:35
Kate Wallinga
I’m going to be releasing an episode later tonight. I had wanted to do it yesterday. Yesterday I wasn’t feeling well.
00:41:43:39 – 00:41:44:20
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:41:44:24 – 00:42:08:03
Kate Wallinga
And so I was like, fine, no guilt. I’m not going to make this a source of stress or guilt for myself. And so when my father died, I was prepared to say, we’re shelving the show and if I can come back, then tastic. But if I can’t, I can’t, like, I need to, you know, like the word can and can’t have meaning.
00:42:08:16 – 00:42:18:13
Agent Palmer
Yeah. You well, you you need to process where you are because you know, you’re a different person after that lot, no matter if he.
00:42:18:13 – 00:42:37:15
Kate Wallinga
You know, he died and he died in Las Vegas. And so I had to I live in, Salem, Massachusetts. And so I had to fly across the country, and I was executor of the will next of kin and all that. And so I had to do a lot of things I had never done before. And I was just like, the podcast cannot be my priority.
00:42:37:15 – 00:43:03:57
Kate Wallinga
Yeah. And while I was getting ready to go, 5 or 6 of my podcast friends stepped up and said, how can we help? And I jokingly said to one of them, I don’t know, can you release an episode? And his answer was, yep, that, you know, you send me the conversation because what I do is I do these conversations just like where we’re having now, you know, we have a an extemporaneous conversation most of the time.
00:43:04:02 – 00:43:26:18
Kate Wallinga
And, then I let it sit for a little bit to kind of percolate. And then I, I do like a 3 to 5 minute intro, couple minute outro, slap those on, put music on and release. And so I was like, I don’t know, I can send you the raw conversation. Yeah. And you could do the intro and outro.
00:43:26:18 – 00:43:51:13
Kate Wallinga
And he was like, yeah, sure, do that. But also start a list in your group. I guarantee there’s other podcasters that’ll do it, and it’s hard to ask for help and it’s hard to trust your baby with somebody else. But I did, and people stepped up. Probably ten people stepped up and did it. So for like a month, I didn’t do a thing for my podcast, but it kept having new episodes come out anyway.
00:43:51:18 – 00:44:25:37
Agent Palmer
How? In hindsight, because obviously time has passed. How do you rank that? Look? They stepped up in a big way and I’m not asking you to shit on them, but like compared to how you would have done the intro and the outro, because obviously you had the conversation, right? Like I do an intro, an outro for this show, you and I are having this conversation and I get, despite your circumstance, I get uneasy thinking about handing this over to someone else and being like.
00:44:25:42 – 00:44:26:13
Kate Wallinga
You.
00:44:26:13 – 00:44:28:04
Agent Palmer
Do the intro and outro.
00:44:28:04 – 00:44:50:14
Kate Wallinga
So it was tricky. So it depended, I would say I had a, I had another time where I had oral surgery and so I couldn’t speak clearly enough to do it. Yeah. And so people did it then for me for a shorter period of time, for like 3 or 4 episodes at a time. And so I have a total of like 15 people that have done it.
00:44:50:19 – 00:45:14:35
Kate Wallinga
Okay. You know, altogether. Yeah. Of those 14 did a better job probably than I would have done a more conscientious job because they knew that I was handing over my baby. Okay. They’re all podcasters. They get it. Yeah. And so they they thought about it carefully. They thought about what they were going to say. I think you can tell it’s scripted.
00:45:14:35 – 00:45:17:04
Kate Wallinga
Where’s my when I do it. It’s it’s not scripted.
00:45:17:09 – 00:45:30:20
Agent Palmer
I am scripted, but I try and write it and read it as if it’s not. So, you know, I to peel back the curtain. It is mostly scripted, but hopefully you don’t notice it.
00:45:30:25 – 00:46:02:28
Kate Wallinga
Yeah, I just don’t, I don’t which is which becomes a problem then. Because if somebody asks me to like rerecord something, I’m like, I cannot do that. So there’s the thing, and I’m actually working on a second show that’ll come out probably late this year sometime, which is fully scripted and that’ll be a whole new beast. Because trying then to stay authentic to who I am and yet script because I’m going to be hiring voice actors and that that kind of deal is going to be wild and I’m terrified.
00:46:02:34 – 00:46:21:31
Kate Wallinga
So we’re not going to talk about that anymore. Okay. But the so 14 of the people did a very good job of recognizing this was important to me and special to me in that I was having like literally the worst time of my adult life. And they were doing something to help, and they did a good job.
00:46:21:36 – 00:46:40:29
Kate Wallinga
One woman, and I’m not going to name her by name. Yep. Only because I’m not a whole entire asshole. But she, I guarantee, is not listening. She never apparently listened to my show before and has never listened to it since. She’s not in my Facebook group. She doesn’t follow me on Twitter. All of that’s gone, so I have no code.
00:46:40:29 – 00:46:58:57
Kate Wallinga
So, you know, if you’re listening to this and you’re like, oh shit, was it me? No, the answer is no. If you’ve ever if you’re listening to this, then you clearly was not. You. She is a person with whom I trusted a fair amount, and I thought that we had an understanding. And then her intro was literally 30s long.
00:46:59:06 – 00:47:27:55
Kate Wallinga
Yeah. I was like, you barely had time to say the name of the podcast in 30s. And then the outro was, wasn’t that interesting? Thanks for listening. And I was like, oh my God. And I remember listening to this. I was sitting in the bank waiting to close out my father’s account, and it was everything I could do to be sitting in this, the lobby of this bank, and to not just start swearing out loud at the, you know, in that moment.
00:47:27:55 – 00:47:51:50
Kate Wallinga
And I felt like that probably wouldn’t go over well. So I mostly restrained myself until I was just like, you couldn’t have like. I could have asked a random stranger on Twitter who would never listen to my show. Would you write an intro and outro for an episode about this topic that you’ve never heard of before? I, you know, the topic was I had to do with a mental disorder specifically.
00:47:51:50 – 00:48:01:02
Kate Wallinga
And so I’m like, here’s the name of the mental disorder. Can you write a two minute intro and a two minute outro about it? And they would’ve done a better job than this woman. So 14 out of 15, it’s not bad.
00:48:01:11 – 00:48:19:52
Agent Palmer
It’s not, it’s not, it’s not art. Would you be I, I obviously you’re not handing this off to strangers, but are you now a little more 14 out of 15 are very good odds. So you have to hand off your next episode. Are you willing to do it or is it like, okay.
00:48:19:57 – 00:48:39:01
Kate Wallinga
I’m just smarter about who I ask now, okay, I’m not going to ask somebody because they’re go, oh God, was she my friend or was she friendly? I don’t know, okay, now we are no longer in contact at all. All right. We had literally a five minute spat at one point, and she was like, never talking to you again.
00:48:39:06 – 00:49:02:25
Kate Wallinga
I said, oh, that’s not how adults work in my world. But okay, you know, and so does that make us friends or just sort of friend like friendly friend adjacent? I don’t know what it is now. I’d be more careful about picking and choosing and assigning as well. Like, hey, this topic would go well to this person. Yeah.
00:49:02:29 – 00:49:37:25
Kate Wallinga
And so that’s, that’s kind of I have to she is like, I believe I’d have to double check to. Sure. But I believe that she’s from the first sort of smaller group from when I had oral surgery where there were only 4 or 5 people that did it. And I believe it’s from that time. And that taught me like, you can do this and you can make it work, but you need to make sure you’re careful and you trust the person you’re assigning it to, and you be willing to either ask them to redo it or say, sorry.
00:49:37:25 – 00:49:40:33
Kate Wallinga
There were audio issues. I had to do it myself.
00:49:40:38 – 00:50:07:39
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I’ve gotten lucky with I’ve only lost because we’ve all done this. I’ve only lost one episode. I have never lost an intro. But then again, like that’s a fully on me. Anyway, I have re recorded them all the time because it’s just like, well, that’s on me. I’m doing the script, I’m doing the recording.
00:50:07:43 – 00:50:30:17
Agent Palmer
If there’s anything wrong with either of those, it’s 100% my fault, 100%. And there have been times when I’m like like an hour or two later because I always give my myself time to let it stew, right? Like this conversation. I will then put it on the side and then I will edit it, and then I will put it aside, and then I will listen to it for show notes.
00:50:30:26 – 00:50:54:04
Agent Palmer
That’s the process. Then I will write the show notes, the intro, the outro record and then let it sit. Because there have been times when I’m like, that’s not what that conversation was about. Idiot. Like, I, what are you doing? And then you go, all right, well, guess we’re back to drafting up something new like it. It all sounds good in the end.
00:50:54:09 – 00:51:09:19
Agent Palmer
That’s what it’s supposed to sound like. But what it sounds like before it’s edited, what it sounds like when it’s still on the page, like we still ultimately have control before we hit publish.
00:51:09:24 – 00:51:33:24
Kate Wallinga
Yeah, I mean, I so there’s lost and there’s lost visual quotes to the audience. Lost. I hate visual quotes. So I’ve had one episode that was legitimately lost that I screwed up the conversation. The audacity crashed on me and never recovered and I lost. And so, of course, in the way of podcasting, that was like literally the best episode that was ever recorded that no one will ever hear, right?
00:51:33:24 – 00:51:34:00
Kate Wallinga
Of course, that’s.
00:51:34:00 – 00:51:36:00
Agent Palmer
The way it works.
00:51:36:05 – 00:51:52:32
Kate Wallinga
For my intros and outros, I try extraordinarily hard to do it in one, one shot, one take, because I want it to be my impression. I come from the old school of public speaking, where you tell them what you’re going to tell them, then you tell them, then you tell them what you just told them. I got it right.
00:51:52:32 – 00:52:03:41
Kate Wallinga
And so it doesn’t have to be what the episode was fully encompassed. It had to be what stood out from me and just a couple of bullet points at the beginning and end to sort of bracket.
00:52:03:41 – 00:52:04:06
Agent Palmer
Drive.
00:52:04:06 – 00:52:36:53
Kate Wallinga
At home, you know. Exactly. And so so there’s that now, I’ve had two. That were visual quotes lost. Okay. One of them was just not right for my show. It was not it didn’t I didn’t have it easy. Like, it’s not that all not all of my episodes are deeper, insightful by any means. I mean, some of the time, like I had one very recently where we spent a significant amount of time talking about horse penises.
00:52:36:53 – 00:52:45:26
Kate Wallinga
So like, it’s not all deep and introspective. I mean, maybe that’s a deep and interesting topic for you. I don’t judge.
00:52:45:31 – 00:52:56:48
Agent Palmer
But, you know, it’s funny, but like because of the podcast, you and I run and they are loose. You don’t know until you’re in it.
00:52:56:52 – 00:52:57:43
Kate Wallinga
Most of the time, like.
00:52:57:43 – 00:53:21:38
Agent Palmer
I’m like, I’m not. And it’s it’s the benefit of not doing an interview. Right. Because an interview means I ask you questions. And if I really want to tell a story, I have to frame it in the form of a question like, I’m on jeopardy! And that doesn’t appeal to me. But I, you know, bouncing concepts, ideas and questions back and forth.
00:53:21:38 – 00:53:49:12
Agent Palmer
That’s fun. But until we’re in it, I don’t, you know, it’s it’s, you know, it’s the first question, you know, it’s my show, you know, like like in in baseball you get the last at bat, so you get the, you know, whatever it is like that. That’s my home field advantage. Otherwise, like, like and I, I’ve been lucky in that I haven’t, but I’ve thought about it where it’s like, because we’re, we’re podcasters.
00:53:49:12 – 00:54:03:20
Agent Palmer
We’ve all had phone calls that were two hours long that we were like, I should have recorded that. That would have been a great episode. But then you go, boy, I that was that wasn’t even a phone call. I wanted to be a part of it.
00:54:03:24 – 00:54:20:32
Kate Wallinga
I can’t believe I recorded that, and that’s that’s what happened with one of these. It was just not, so it’s it’s not that every episode has insight, but this went beyond that. It it felt like it was on, on the part of my guest. It felt deliberate.
00:54:20:37 – 00:54:21:19
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:54:21:23 – 00:54:55:14
Kate Wallinga
And so I got in touch and said, sorry, audio issues. What are you going to do? Do you want to rerecord? Yeah. And this was right. This is so early on, I took almost no DirecTV presence in my show. Like, I would just literally follow the conversation wherever it went. And now I take more of a deliberate like I ask other topics we should avoid because I do know where the conversation is going and I can steer it, you know, if it’s going to banal or if it’s going too intense, I can steer it back.
00:54:55:19 – 00:55:24:15
Kate Wallinga
And so this was before I did that. And so it just kind of got away from me. And so that one I lost with the visual quotes and then another one, sometimes people come to me with really compelling ideas, which I don’t need. Like literally all I need is give me a date and time and we’ll record. But if you come to me with, like, I want to talk about this on your show, okay, sure, we can do that.
00:55:24:20 – 00:55:45:55
Kate Wallinga
And this person had this compelling idea. I’m trying to figure out how to frame it. It was basically like, I want to talk about the ways in which certain specific childhood experiences have impacted my personality as an adult. And I was like, oh, interesting. Cool. I’ll actually be on brand for once. What do you know? Let’s try that.
00:55:46:00 – 00:56:11:17
Kate Wallinga
And then it turned out, it turned into like a it was 2 or 3 hours of recording with this person, and then just bitching like that’s all it was, was just bitching about this thing that happened to them in their childhood. But there was no sense of it going anywhere or moving beyond. And I was like, first of all, it’s not fun to listen to for anybody.
00:56:11:26 – 00:56:45:19
Kate Wallinga
But secondly, that puts this person who is also a podcaster in a bad light. And I’m aware that when people come on my show, there is a promotional value to that, that their listeners get to hear them in a different context than normal. And so I was like, you know, I, I said, I’m like, let’s why don’t we rerecord and kind of tighten it up, focus it in, and maybe find a little bit more of a positive reaction or negative, but some direction, because we just sat in one very unpleasant.
00:56:45:24 – 00:57:03:23
Kate Wallinga
Yeah. Tone. And I, and I understand you felt kind of stuck in that tone, but I’ll help move you out of it. And her response was up yours. I know what your your listeners want to listen to more than you do. And I’m like, really? You with your three episodes compared to me with my hundred or whatever it was at the time.
00:57:03:23 – 00:57:10:51
Kate Wallinga
Like, that’s fascinating. And she’s also like, what if I’m still stuck there? And I’m like, I think it might be.
00:57:10:56 – 00:57:11:58
Agent Palmer
Yeah. It.
00:57:12:07 – 00:57:28:30
Kate Wallinga
I think, I think that is a distinct possibility. And so I was like, look, the door remains open. If you want to rerecord, we will, but I am not playing that episode on my show. And so those are the sort of I had the one truly lost one in the two, where I was just like,
00:57:28:35 – 00:57:42:52
Agent Palmer
Does it go on forever? Like, because I like, I asked the question, knowing full well that, I mean, I’m probably never going to run out of guests. I don’t think you will either.
00:57:42:56 – 00:58:04:18
Kate Wallinga
God, I have 20 backlogged episodes right now that I haven’t run yet, so like, I haven’t finished them, so. So my process is a little different from yours in the sense that I let the conversation stew when I have time to, to publish, to edit, I come down and I flip open my notebook and I kind of flip through.
00:58:04:18 – 00:58:26:26
Kate Wallinga
I don’t do them chronologically. I do them in terms of what have I done recently? What do I have coming up, what do I want to edit right now? And I look over, I take some notes while I’m recording. In terms of what did we talk about, ideas for episode titles, things like that. And I kind of get it in my head, like, okay, here’s what we talked about and I try to have a one shot.
00:58:26:26 – 00:58:49:51
Kate Wallinga
Here’s the intro, here’s the outro. Publish. Go. Don’t overthink it. Because when I overthink it, I stutter and I get lost and I get frustrated and you can hear it like my throat closes up and I get uncomfortable. Whereas if I can stay one shot through, that’s me. That’s this is what I talk like. And this is how I think.
00:58:49:55 – 00:58:51:44
Kate Wallinga
And that’s why I have taglines.
00:58:51:49 – 00:59:16:30
Agent Palmer
Well, that’s it’s funny because being that I, I think we’re all know, no matter how good you are as an editor, you want it to sound like a one shot, all the better. If it is because it’s less editing. But that’s that’s the goal, right? The goal is. Hey guys, welcome to the show. This is what’s going on.
00:59:16:30 – 00:59:31:55
Agent Palmer
You know, I hit my points as I wanted and envisioned them. And let’s get it going. And then it happens. And you just go hey perfect I’m done moving along.
00:59:32:00 – 00:59:53:36
Kate Wallinga
That’s that’s how I know that that an episode is not fully percolated or fully cooked in my head yet. Okay, is if I can’t come up with the intro in like two takes three takes something like that. If I find myself going stop, start over more than three times, it’s like, this is stop. This is not, this is not on.
00:59:53:40 – 01:00:14:59
Kate Wallinga
This is not the one. And now that I have this backlog built up again, I can afford to do that and I can afford to move on to a different one, because there are some where I literally all I have written down is like the name of the person. And at some point the the time when one of the kids slammed the door upstairs or whatever, like that’s all I have written down.
01:00:14:59 – 01:00:34:26
Kate Wallinga
And I’m like, if I can remember the episode without listening to it, and I’m like, cool. Otherwise I’m going to have to do the listening and and more percolating over it to, to find how I’m going to introduce it. And for me, what helped is I needed a cut. Like I said, taglines is the closest I can come up with it.
01:00:34:26 – 01:01:05:51
Kate Wallinga
So every episode starts with, hey, this is Kate. It’s simple and I can remember it and it’s helpful. And I talk until I reach a point where I can ask the question, are you sure you really want to know this is ignorance was bliss. So I just sort of talk, openly, you know, extemporaneously for about two minutes, usually until I can kind of work it around to be like, are you sure you really want to know this is ignorance is bliss.
01:01:05:56 – 01:01:14:59
Kate Wallinga
Hit this, hit the intro music, and then at the end I try to tag back to some point that I didn’t mention in the intro.
01:01:15:04 – 01:01:16:02
Agent Palmer
Okay?
01:01:16:07 – 01:01:35:07
Kate Wallinga
And just sort of, hey, this is something that really stood out to me from what I just recorded. And at the end I talk until I can say thank you to the guest, and then I thank the guest. I thank the listeners. I either say, hey, next up is this, or next up is something I don’t know yet.
01:01:35:21 – 01:02:04:08
Kate Wallinga
I’ll figure it out when I sit down. Not sure. And then I used to say for the first like 300 episodes almost. I only recently stopped. I used to say, didn’t you feel better before you knew that? And I stopped doing that because the point of that line was, I can make anything sound normal. I can make a criminal or a serial killer sound normal.
01:02:04:13 – 01:02:20:32
Kate Wallinga
Didn’t you feel better when they didn’t seem normal? Yeah. Didn’t you feel better before you knew that? And now some of my episodes are outright, like, feel good and shit, so I don’t, you know, people are like, no, I didn’t feel better. I feel better after. I know that. And I’m like, oh, right, I should drop that line.
01:02:20:37 – 01:02:47:18
Kate Wallinga
And so now I just kind of talk till I get to the end and instead I say, you know, something to the effect, like, I’ll be back in the next couple of days and, you know, but please stay safe, stay sane if you’re able to. And I’ve developed inadvertent tagline, which is part of my disclaimer that happens at the very, very beginning before I start speaking.
01:02:47:22 – 01:03:06:11
Kate Wallinga
I’ve had all kinds of people and I’ll hit you up for one as well. Just read my disclaimer for me because I feel like if it’s a different voice every show, people kind of tune in differently. And I have a very loose script. But if you want to screw with it or change the wording or whatever, like my daughter starts with, listen up, fuckers.
01:03:06:15 – 01:03:27:22
Kate Wallinga
So, you know, yeah, things like that. Like it’s it’s just whatever feels right to you. And I tell people like, I want it to be basically, you know, in three parts, right. And the first part is like, this podcast is not safe for work, small children and house plants. And then in the middle, I don’t break privacy or confidentiality.
01:03:27:27 – 01:04:01:08
Kate Wallinga
Okay. You know, as a, as a professional. And at the end I include the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline number. And I say the only thing out of this that is just hard and fast, I need it. In this disclaimer are the last two words which are you matter because I feel like people don’t hear that enough, and it’s simple to say it’s not difficult to pronounce and it’s not evidence of deep intimacy or vulnerability or that kind of thing.
01:04:01:13 – 01:04:22:12
Kate Wallinga
But we don’t say it enough and we don’t hear it enough. And I started to hear after like so also, somewhat ironically, maybe for the first 50 some of my episodes, my dad is the one reading my disclaimer and so I can’t cope with using his voice to hear him read the suicide hotline and to hear him say that.
01:04:22:12 – 01:04:38:50
Kate Wallinga
But yet the the legacy is sort of there. And I had people start to say to me after a while, you know, there are some times and they always say, I don’t know if you get this, but as podcaster, I’ll get like, oh, I fell asleep to your show last night. Don’t take that the wrong way. And I’m like, you listened.
01:04:38:52 – 01:04:40:58
Kate Wallinga
That’s all I care. You know, it’s like, no, I’m.
01:04:41:03 – 01:04:41:43
Agent Palmer
100%.
01:04:41:56 – 01:05:01:01
Kate Wallinga
Sure. Yeah. And and they’ll also I’ve had people say like, don’t take this the wrong way. I’m like a guarantee I won’t. But then, like, sometimes I listen to your show just to get to the end of the the disclaimer. Because sometimes I need to hear somebody tell me you matter. And sometimes that’s the only time I hear it all day long.
01:05:01:06 – 01:05:19:16
Kate Wallinga
And I’m like, well, break my heart. So I’ve started adding it. So it’s part of my disclaimer at the beginning, and I’ve started saying at the very end, because at the beginning it was like my tagline, but I never said it because there was other people who are reading my disclaimers and I realized, no, they should hear it from me.
01:05:19:16 – 01:05:39:26
Kate Wallinga
And you can hear it more than once. It’s okay, because you really you might not matter to me personally because I don’t know who’s listening. I don’t know who’s out there, but you matter to somebody, and if you don’t think you matter to anybody, then hit me up and then you will matter to me.
01:05:39:31 – 01:05:43:58
Kate Wallinga
You.
01:05:44:03 – 01:06:07:47
Agent Palmer
At the end of episode 47, the token professor suggested that you go out and make something, and I agreed with that. During this episode, Kate suggested that those creations should be more fun than stress, and I agree with that too. Now, to be sure, fun doesn’t mean easy. And honestly, easy can sometimes be boring, so you’ll have to judge all of that for yourself.
01:06:07:51 – 01:06:30:53
Agent Palmer
But it is important to get started and not judge yourself or your progress against that of others. Kate and I have similar shows, but they are not the same. Often similar and same are used interchangeably, but they shouldn’t be. And while I can’t fix that out in the real world, I can make it a point to say it here.
01:06:31:06 – 01:07:08:10
Agent Palmer
Similar does not equal same. Kate and I are also similar creators. Our processes are similar, but again, we are not the same and our processes are not the same. Similar and same are not equal. Now this relates to how well for two episodes now my guests and I have suggested you go out and do something, make something, create something of your own, make it fun, not necessarily easy and it can be similar to other things, but don’t make it the same as something else.
01:07:08:21 – 01:07:31:56
Agent Palmer
Make it your own. And if you are currently carbon copying something, how can you make it your own? And if you aren’t making anything at all, why not? Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 48. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays.
01:07:32:04 – 01:07:55:05
Agent Palmer
If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can tweet me at Agent Palmer, my guest Kate at WBE podcast that I WB podcast and this show at the Palmer Files AWB podcast will also lead you to Kate’s Instagram and Facebook pages. And for all of the episodes, links and additional information you can visit AWB podcast.com.
01:07:55:10 – 01:08:08:00
Agent Palmer
Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
01:08:08:05 – 01:08:15:12
Unknown
You.
01:08:15:17 – 01:08:21:46
Unknown
Need.
01:08:21:50 – 01:08:44:02
Unknown
Me.
01:08:44:06 – 01:08:50:21
Agent Palmer
She all right? Kate, do you have one final question for me?
01:08:50:26 – 01:09:08:34
Kate Wallinga
Sure. Let’s say that you have been maybe given a grant or in other ways, told that you have to create an entirely new fictional podcast. What are you writing about and why?
01:09:08:39 – 01:09:42:56
Agent Palmer
Who? An entirely new fictional podcast. I there are three very distinct options for me. One is some kind of baseball show because. Right. Well, you know, and I love baseball, so that would be or sports in general. I mean, I, I’m a sucker for sports and narratives within and quote unquote, the game within the game that bores everybody else.
01:09:42:56 – 01:10:02:00
Agent Palmer
Like when people just watch the Super Bowl and they’re like, man, whatever, whatever. I’m like, yeah, but like then, okay, fine, whatever. You don’t want to hear the ins and outs of, you know, the play action pass. That’s cool. I get it right. Like, you don’t think the pickoff move in the fifth inning was important to the ninth inning, but it was all right.
01:10:02:00 – 01:10:34:42
Agent Palmer
That’s me. So like, I feel like I could easily do some fiction in that world, if not that, it’s going to take me a while to come up with something because it’s either going to be something like fantastical, like middle earth wizards and dragons or I I’ll just trying to contemporary fiction, which of the three would be the hardest to write, but might be the one that gives me the most to work with because it’s like here and now.
01:10:34:42 – 01:11:04:42
Agent Palmer
I just got to make shit up. I’ve been so far removed. So episode nine was my best friend, Jason Zapata, and he was on again as the first episode of For Friendship episodes, and he I helped him publish a book of poetry for himself, and he has been telling me I need to get back to writing poetry. Not fiction necessarily, but back to poetry.
01:11:04:47 – 01:11:31:53
Agent Palmer
He’s also a big fan of a few short stories I wrote decades ago, and he will not shut up about them because I don’t write that anymore. Right? I’m writing my blog. I’m writing rants and opinions and thoughts and this, that, but not fiction. I wrote one piece of fiction and it showed up on this podcast. One piece of fiction I wrote in the last decade showed up on this podcast, and it was called death of a storyteller.
01:11:31:58 – 01:11:56:23
Agent Palmer
But I don’t know if it’s real fiction because I based it solely on, like, I took three real things, three pieces of nonfiction from my life and smashed them together. But I do have these friends and some family that know of what I did way back when, and they all want me to get back in. And they all tell me fictions like riding a bike.
01:11:56:27 – 01:12:23:59
Agent Palmer
You just got to like, get on and it will flow. I don’t know, I mean, I gave you the three most likely scenarios to happen, but the real truth of the matter is, if you ask me to write anything, even when it’s my blog for a book review, hell, I finished a book last night. I still haven’t written the review because I’m very much an inspired writer.
01:12:24:03 – 01:12:49:20
Agent Palmer
I was like that way in high school, even for like reports like maybe this book report or this essay got written two weeks ahead of time. Maybe it was the last minute. I’m always waiting for that spark. And for me, unfortunately, that spark is always the first line. Like, even if I want to say, even if I want to write a post like I met Kate, it was wonderful.
01:12:49:25 – 01:13:20:17
Agent Palmer
Okay, that’s what I’m writing. Except until I figure out whatever the first line is, I can’t write it. That’s my that’s my process, broken as it may be. Normal is it may be whatever it is. That’s my process. So. Well, I gave you the three likely candidates until I get whatever that piece of inspiration is. That is the first line that starts me down the path of that first script.
01:13:20:22 – 01:13:47:21
Agent Palmer
I don’t know what’ll come out and and it it’s, it’s interesting because when I do in this even more fictional example of writing a posting, I met Kate. I don’t know how that ends. I’m very much a stream of conscience writer, so it’s why, even if I know what I want to say until I get the first line, I don’t know how I’ll say it and I don’t know how it ends.
01:13:47:26 – 01:14:21:43
Agent Palmer
I’m well, I have edited those posts and those writings. I’m is unlikely to know how it ends, as you are when you click the link to find out. So I guess I don’t know, but I will tell you, I’m not taking the money unless I only have to script it because I have been a part of some fictional multiple voice actor podcasts and that seems like there’s not enough grant money in the world to get me to do that.
01:14:21:58 – 01:14:25:05
Agent Palmer
Aside from just writing the script and handing it in.
01:14:25:10 – 01:14:30:41
Kate Wallinga
I mean, that’s part of the grant for sure. For sure. Okay.
01:14:30:46 – 01:14:58:21
Agent Palmer
Yeah, that’s that’s all I got. I can’t I’d love to tell you. Like. Oh no, I’d write like a, an Oregon Trail story about going west. I don’t know, I, I’ve read so many things. The only thing I can tell you for sure, and this is very off brand for me, considering I have a website that’s thematically spy oriented and my name is spy oriented.
01:14:58:30 – 01:15:05:26
Agent Palmer
I’m not writing spy fiction, so I can at least tell you that you will not read spy fiction from me.
01:15:05:30 – 01:15:16:59
Kate Wallinga
I accept this, and I mean, we all understand being podcasters, that if you already had that inspiration, you’d already be working on it and you wouldn’t tell me. So like I know.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).