Episode 113 features good friend Jason Zapata and both of our younger selves.
We listen to an old conversation which you will also hear with us and then we reconvene on the mics to talk about music, friendship, and a whole lot more…
Throughout the conversation, we discuss:
- A conversation from the past
- Age comes for us all
- Listening to our younger selves is weird
- Music
- Culture
- Arts and Artists
- Attention spans
- Effortless Art Doesn’t Exist
- And much more
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Friendship: Episode I – Jason Zapata
–End Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:29:38
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com. More promises from Palmer. Evil genius is a textbook example of a fun thriller. And I’m still waiting on confirmation from my previous guest that she’s on vacation, which I’m optimistically taking to mean she’s on vacation. This is The Palmer Files episode 113 featuring my good friend Jason Zapata and both of our younger selves. We listen to an old conversation, which you will also hear with us, and then we reconvene on the mics to talk about music, friendship, and a whole lot more.
00:00:29:47 – 00:01:03:18
Agent Palmer
Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:03:23 – 00:01:21:28
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 113th episode is Jason Zapata, who’s here with me on this show? Because I resurrected an old conversation we had before the turn of the millennium, and I decided it would be great to listen to it with him and record what happens next.
00:01:21:32 – 00:01:39:35
Agent Palmer
That is what this is. I discovered this conversation, which I didn’t know existed, while converting all of my old cassette tapes to digital, because I only had one cassette player left, and I felt the need to preserve whatever was on all of those tapes. I found some tracks laid down by my friends, an early album release from a band.
00:01:39:35 – 00:02:00:20
Agent Palmer
I joined for a cup of coffee in high school, but I also found this conversation. So that’s what you are about to hear. I have since attempted to clean up the audio as best I could from the original conversation, so that it is as clear as possible since the rest of the conversation from the present day is launched from that conversation.
00:02:00:25 – 00:02:20:56
Agent Palmer
That’s it. That is what is in store for you. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all contact information for myself and for my guest, Jason Zapata in the show notes. There you can find more information about my guest Jason’s work adjacent to part of.com. Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Jim palmer.com.
00:02:20:56 – 00:02:34:14
Agent Palmer
And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:34:18 – 00:02:47:00
Our Younger Selves
Say something, my man. Oh, not that you don’t have to do that. Okay. And we’ll see.
00:02:47:04 – 00:03:13:54
Our Younger Selves
Music discussion, part one. Guns N roses. Your view on the breakup. Breakup? Okay. Let’s see. Well, it’s not entirely one party spot. It can’t be. Because if it was, then one of them would have been kicked out of the band. And the other one would have, like, been like, hey, I want to own guns N roses. You know, take everybody else in.
00:03:13:59 – 00:03:38:09
Our Younger Selves
It’s like. It’s like, oh, sure thing. Yeah. All right. So it wasn’t an ownership and it was. It had nothing to do with money. And in the, interview, I just read about, that movie that he did with Kurt Loder. He talked to you. He’s talking about more and more about how they broke up and were like, what strained them apart, what led to it?
00:03:38:23 – 00:04:02:40
Our Younger Selves
And it was more like, actual doesn’t hate all kinds of music. He likes most kinds of music. So everybody else went to do a hard rock album. You want to do explore some different things, and that’s kind of where it kind of left. But the other thing was like, he wasn’t having fun. That’s what he said. I think that’s because he’s like, he lost out.
00:04:02:45 – 00:04:11:07
Our Younger Selves
And, I was talking about how,
00:04:11:12 – 00:04:31:50
Our Younger Selves
Axl and Slash like, battled on, like in terms of ego trips, like who was more with the band and it’s obvious the actual had more with, with the, the, the people he liked the people. He’s like the people guy. I mean, they were both fighting back and forth for that, you know, it was, you know, slash six hour slow solos.
00:04:31:55 – 00:05:11:56
Our Younger Selves
Axl at the vocals. Yeah. And obviously went with the vocals. I mean, yeah, you could have very well gone with slash. I mean, right now, his band is like, it’s an underground thing, and I hope he breaks out because he deserves to sell out like arenas and shit. But like, they I think they were battling back and forth and Axl did win because there was some solo as, like towards the later end of the thing, like when you listen to the live album and stuff, that he’s just not putting it all into it, just in terms of a battle for back and forth, like kind of lost.
00:05:12:01 – 00:05:31:47
Our Younger Selves
But there are some really good solos from like the mid, like I’d say 90 not not like 94, like the end, like totally, but around 90 when they were both like still trying to be on top of each other like that. Those solos, those vocals, like they were put out there, they were like, boom, here it is. You love me more, you know?
00:05:31:55 – 00:05:36:57
Our Younger Selves
Well, I like, use your illusions, number one. You could tell, like in November Rain.
00:05:36:57 – 00:05:37:24
Jason Zapata
I mean.
00:05:37:33 – 00:05:38:21
Our Younger Selves
Slash had two.
00:05:38:21 – 00:05:39:13
Jason Zapata
Awesome solos.
00:05:39:13 – 00:06:07:56
Our Younger Selves
Don’t cry too. Yeah, and they covered some good shit, you know. I mean, like, live and let die. Come on. That’s, like, the best version of that song. But they shoot like they like. I think, like you can tell slash lost only because Axl was trying, like, for three and a half plus years or something to get him back, and, like, he just gave up.
00:06:07:56 – 00:06:27:45
Our Younger Selves
Like, the only reason he wouldn’t go back is because he. His pride was hurt, you know? And he won’t really talk about guns, cause, I mean, I’ve been online, I’ve searched, and he won’t make really any comments about it. And from my understanding, slash is Snakepit is where guns N roses is now. I mean, Axl’s off doing his thing.
00:06:27:45 – 00:06:49:33
Our Younger Selves
He’s got thing, he’s got the name. But the the music wise it’s risky sneak. But in all seriousness, I think like he almost had the entire guns N roses lineup line up on Slash’s Snakepit and Axl was going to help out, but slash wanted it this way, and he didn’t want to Axl’s way, or he didn’t want actual to help improve it or change it.
00:06:49:37 – 00:07:06:14
Our Younger Selves
And that’s why Axl up and Duff left, too. But Duff played with him for a while and dumped him. They’re still playing pretty cool. I didn’t know that. I know Axl Rose. Yeah, I guess I guess you either did, you wanted to do vocals or he was invited to, and it just didn’t work out because he. The ego thing.
00:07:06:14 – 00:07:31:10
Our Younger Selves
Ego thing? Yeah, he’d sing it. Syndrome kind of. It’s like. I mean, like Steven and Joe, he they they did their whole, I mean, Joe went off and did his thing and it’s kind of almost the same situation, only they actually realized how much they needed each other, which is why they came back. And those three albums that they made afterwards, the big ones pumped Permanent Vacation and Get a Grip.
00:07:31:10 – 00:07:58:26
Our Younger Selves
They were they’re their biggest sellers. You’re the ones that really made it in the pop culture, like the mainstream. But I mean, like those two, really, they they their egos aren’t as dependent on each other, probably because they didn’t have as long as a career like Aerosmith. Those two, they I mean, they were the toxic Twins. Yes. But they had like 12 albums together before they even started to stray apart.
00:07:58:28 – 00:08:19:41
Our Younger Selves
Yeah, but can it be a guns N roses that slash. No. Can it be guns N roses without Axl? It is it guns N roses for now? I mean, it isn’t guns N roses without slash, but it kind of is without Axl. I mean, because lyrically there are people that can measure up to. I mean, well, not necessarily lyrically.
00:08:19:41 – 00:08:51:22
Our Younger Selves
You can come close and you could almost touch you, and voice wise you can touch you because I mean, voice wise, it’s just, you know, if you have it or not. But I mean, what’s there is it’s the music more so than the lyrics because most people are looking for slash. I mean, they’re looking for actual. And he did steal the limelight, but it everybody depended on slash, which is why you can actually says if you want to hear an old guns N roses thing, you go to slash Snakepit because that’s where the sound is.
00:08:51:27 – 00:09:11:30
Our Younger Selves
We actually is trying a new melting pot. He’s got some a little he’s got some computer stuff, he’s got some electronic. In the new album comes out of the early 2000. So what you’re saying was that, Axl was like, you know, the headliner, but slash was the backbone to the band. Yeah. And the rest were kind of like great musicians.
00:09:11:30 – 00:09:38:38
Our Younger Selves
But I mean, they did their own thing. They stood out in individual songs and little things like that. Like, I mean, I there’s solos. I mean, there’s little things. There were components, but they were. Yeah, I mean, they were they were kind of major components. But the ultimate components were like act. Yeah. And like even like like they each come out like impatience.
00:09:38:43 – 00:10:07:22
Our Younger Selves
You know, rhythm guitar comes out in switch out of in the bass solo at the beginning comes out. I mean, they all got their say to a point, but those two were the main components. I mean, any band that’s got, you know, two guitar like a guns N roses, like it was an 80s metal band. I mean, they had two guitars, lead in rhythm, their bassist, they had a drummer, they had a lead singer who didn’t play anything unless he really wanted to.
00:10:07:27 – 00:10:29:16
Our Younger Selves
And they had a keyboardist that was the main man. There were six. Aerosmith did it without a key, a main keyboardist. I mean, now they travel with one, but they didn’t have like, they pick one up or they’ve got one. They, they never had like a permanent member. I mean, there’s a lot there. I mean, there’s a lot there’s a lot between those two bands.
00:10:29:16 – 00:10:58:22
Our Younger Selves
Arrow smoking guns, roses. Because like guns N roses came because they they, Did Mama Kim and I mean, they both work out of nothing. Basically. Only Aerosmith hated on the East Coast guns they did on the West Coast. You think, New Guns Roses is going to be, somewhat of a comparison to the old, the only way the only thing you’ll be able to compare it to is, Slash’s Snakepit.
00:10:58:37 – 00:11:29:42
Our Younger Selves
Because basically, when you listen to it, that’s where the gun sound is right now. The gun sound is with Slash’s Snakepit. I mean, because he’s still got kind of control and everybody follows his lead because he’s like the main guy. So I mean, lyrically it’ll be, you know, same old actual they’ll have the voice and it’s he’s got the same type of lineup, but it’s different influences on the band.
00:11:29:47 – 00:11:56:27
Our Younger Selves
And he’s trying to get, you know, new influences. He’s trying to make it a melting pot and, you know, he’s I mean, oh my God, I haven’t heard it. But from all the things I’ve read about it, it was hard and metal and it was more not Metallica, but even a little harder maybe. And that’s not really where guns N roses is.
00:11:56:27 – 00:12:12:47
Our Younger Selves
I mean, they did a song or two like that, an unusual allusion. Like there’s that one song, it’s like you want to step into my world, it’s a psycho, but and it’s just extremely hard. Like, I think that’s where it came from, kind of. But he’s trying new things, like you want to be involved in the Seattle movement.
00:12:12:58 – 00:12:29:43
Our Younger Selves
Yeah, he like the Seattle movement actually said that. So city like the Seattle movement, not any other in the band did. And I don’t blame them because they were the that was the end. I mean, they may have survived, but that was the end of all the other hair bands. Yeah. Metal. Yeah. 80s like hyper kind of music.
00:12:29:43 – 00:12:51:38
Our Younger Selves
Yeah. Don’t get me wrong, is it’s still alive. We poison rat great white L.A. guns. Yeah. They’re all they’re all retiring and still selling out. And stuff. They were there, but they shrunk down a little. They allowed a new music to come, but they didn’t necessarily shrink down. They kind of more got pushed out of the way, I think.
00:12:51:38 – 00:13:04:33
Our Younger Selves
Yeah, yeah. It’s like, move out, here we come. And that movement died. Kurt though, when Kurt died, that movement would be.
00:13:04:38 – 00:13:26:35
Our Younger Selves
I don’t know if that movement would have stayed alive. The whole Grange thing. Yeah, I think that would have died out eventually. But I mean, it died a little faster. And nobody’s still around from it. Like, because the grunge turned into alternative, that’s what they were classifying as alternative. And you don’t hear any of that now. It’s all rap rock.
00:13:26:40 – 00:13:53:53
Our Younger Selves
A new pretty face. Oh, the teenyboppers don’t give a shout out to you. Teenyboppers. You know, they do like some of my. One is one of these days, you know, I don’t know, like Joey McIntyre’s trying to make a comeback. Oh, God. Like it’s on the vlog. Yeah, he’s never gonna outlive that. Like that. That. I mean, it’s like.
00:13:54:02 – 00:14:14:41
Our Younger Selves
Okay. Yes. You’re still a new kid, man. You’re always going to be a new kid. I don’t care if you can write your own music or not. You’re still a new kid. They’re fucked for life. Yeah. So you may always have a hot chick. You want to fuck you. But in the music, which you will never be taken seriously.
00:14:14:46 – 00:14:26:05
Our Younger Selves
It’s your own damn fun making, like, god damn money up a cheap slut.
00:14:26:09 – 00:14:45:35
Our Younger Selves
King of pop. Is he dead, Michael Jackson? I don’t know, I think so. I mean, what he did in the past is there, and then he made weak attempts at trying to make a new thriller. And once he hit thriller, that was the peak. You’ll never be able to top that again. Yeah. And, oh, back to guns.
00:14:45:35 – 00:15:10:11
Our Younger Selves
Rose for a second. Jared. Slut. Axl rerecorded appetite with all the new members. Yeah, with the new with the new, new lineup. Why would you do that? I don’t know, and I think you I think he’s saying so I think I think he’s got 70 songs recorded. I mean, he’s got enough. And plus eight, I mean, plus he’s got the appetite rerecorded.
00:15:10:23 – 00:15:37:13
Our Younger Selves
I think what he wants to do is he’ll probably he’s going to release, Chinese Democracy and that’ll either that will. I’m, I’m not sure if that contain maybe the old songs and I actually know it doesn’t contain any old song. They’re mine. Rephrase it because I saw the song. But after he does that, if it doesn’t reestablish guns N roses as a new, different lineup, but still same old thing.
00:15:37:18 – 00:16:03:44
Our Younger Selves
He’ll rerelease it because he said it’s got the same energy, and if it’s got the same energy, it’ll sell to, not necessarily. It’ll sell on name to the hardcore guns N roses fan, and it’ll either disappoint or yeah, yeah, but why do it? That’s the whole reason. I mean, just to show people that, I mean, it’s not necessarily selling out because they can still rock and have the same energy, but want to sound, have a different sound for the new musicians?
00:16:03:44 – 00:16:28:31
Our Younger Selves
Not necessarily. I mean, he said. And Axl does have a pretty high. He’s one of those guys that’s got like one of those, he’s like self-critical. And the if they in order to reduce that old guns N roses stuff, you have to live up to what they did, or at least play up to their standards. So I think that’s what he was doing.
00:16:28:46 – 00:16:47:37
Our Younger Selves
Like whether he releases it or not, he still knows that they have recorded it and they have, and they’re up to the standards of the old guns, roses. And that’s why it took eight years, I think about now. No, it’s only been six. But I mean, he’s just been writing. He’s just been working on the album. He hasn’t really and working on the album.
00:16:47:37 – 00:17:28:32
Our Younger Selves
But the musicians, he hasn’t really been doing anything. He hasn’t seen any shows. I mean, he’s secluded. Secluded. So why it’s nice to like, you know, get a band started because slash needed music and slash knows what what to do and how to do it. And he’s like one, he’s not going to disappear because, I mean, no matter what, no matter what happens with the new guns N roses album, and if slash never makes it in the mainstream, and if guns N roses fails and Axl all that stuff, slash will always be looked to by a guitarist.
00:17:28:37 – 00:17:42:38
Our Younger Selves
Yes, it’s legacy security. Yeah, his legacy is secure. I mean, it’s not going anywhere.
00:17:42:43 – 00:17:56:26
Our Younger Selves
More. Not too much. Not even that. Okay.
00:17:56:31 – 00:18:23:44
Agent Palmer
All right. Sir. So we we literally like, as everybody else just heard it, you and I just heard it, and I, I have questions, so many questions. Like, first of all, you and I had so many music discussions. So many. Why is that the one that we recorded and and why did we only record one at.
00:18:23:45 – 00:18:37:58
Jason Zapata
Well, I don’t think most people think to save conversations for prosperity, which was kind of weird because now with the technology that we have, it’s a little bit easier to do that type of thing. So.
00:18:38:03 – 00:18:53:51
Agent Palmer
Yeah, you and I, I mean, the sounds bad because you and I are sharing one mic off of my Tascam port studio, so like, yeah, it’s it’s whatever it is, it’s I’m so I don’t have a date on this. I’m going to guess 99. I’m going to guess it’s before the millennium.
00:18:54:03 – 00:18:57:19
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Easily. So it’s it’s got to be 98, 99.
00:18:57:19 – 00:19:02:18
Agent Palmer
Somewhere in there. There. Yeah. I know where we recorded it, which helps a little bit.
00:19:02:18 – 00:19:06:17
Jason Zapata
Yeah, it was like you’re a third floor bedroom in, in the old house by the library.
00:19:06:17 – 00:19:11:00
Agent Palmer
Yeah, we’re still in high school. I just.
00:19:11:05 – 00:19:15:27
Agent Palmer
What if. Let’s start from the very beginning. What’s with the voice? I do a voice.
00:19:15:27 – 00:19:21:56
Jason Zapata
You sound like Jay from the, What’s what’s his deal? Jane style? I, I.
00:19:22:01 – 00:19:22:28
Agent Palmer
Like, I.
00:19:22:28 – 00:19:27:54
Jason Zapata
Know, I know for the majority of that, you sound like freakin Jay from clerks, which.
00:19:27:54 – 00:19:33:30
Agent Palmer
Is funny. And here’s the thing is, they’re so, so people listening. You’re going to be like, well, it’s because he was high. But you and I never know.
00:19:33:30 – 00:19:33:48
Jason Zapata
We never.
00:19:33:48 – 00:19:40:47
Agent Palmer
Smoked. There was not something we did. So I know it’s not that I don’t know why I’m putting on a voice. I’ve no idea.
00:19:40:52 – 00:19:50:15
Jason Zapata
None. I know this sounds bad, but I. I’m struggling to to think back that far and remember, like, if that’s, like how you usually smoke.
00:19:50:15 – 00:19:56:05
Agent Palmer
I don’t think so. Because when you listen, like as I get into it and we’re going to get into the,
00:19:56:09 – 00:20:01:13
Jason Zapata
And I’ll be honest, I’m not sure either way, but I just thought it was hysterical because listening to it now, I’m like, Dear God.
00:20:01:28 – 00:20:17:15
Agent Palmer
But I will say, I, I don’t know what article I’m talking about. I and and look since then, okay? Since then I’ve read the unauthorized biography of Axl. I’ve read two of Duff’s books. I’ve read his book.
00:20:17:15 – 00:20:18:33
Jason Zapata
A lot more information.
00:20:18:33 – 00:20:40:36
Agent Palmer
I have a lot more information. And also, what’s funny is it sounds like I’m taking Axl aside in that whole conversation, and I’m trying. I think I’m trying to be an optimist, and I, I was very much a big Snakepit fan, which you and I actually saw him open up for AC, DC.
00:20:40:36 – 00:20:42:01
Jason Zapata
Yes, we did.
00:20:42:06 – 00:20:44:10
Agent Palmer
And then in the last.
00:20:44:10 – 00:20:46:11
Jason Zapata
Maybe I completely forgot about that, by the.
00:20:46:11 – 00:21:09:17
Agent Palmer
Way. And then, and then in like, I don’t know, maybe 15 years ago when I read Duff’s first book, then I started kind of getting into Duff, who is now my favorite. I, I yeah, I don’t, I, I don’t know, I mean, since then aside from what I’ve consumed like, like the list goes on, right? So Snakepit.
00:21:09:28 – 00:21:17:30
Agent Palmer
Sure. Absolutely. Then then Velvet Revolver happens and then eventually Chinese democracy finally.
00:21:17:39 – 00:21:43:23
Jason Zapata
Didn’t come out in 2000. So certainly did not come out in 2000. That was a fight. I was trying so hard not to laugh out loud. When when you said that, I was like, oh, well, that estimate was way off. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think looking back at that, the years between that conversation and now what happened to those, those musicians and those bands, it’s it’s pretty wild.
00:21:43:23 – 00:21:50:42
Jason Zapata
You know, Scott Weiland, gets himself killed, you know, and that was another stake in the heart of grunge music.
00:21:50:42 – 00:21:52:41
Agent Palmer
So, yeah, I’ll tell you this, I wasn’t dead.
00:21:52:43 – 00:22:01:02
Jason Zapata
I was just it was hurt and bad. But it wasn’t dead. But when you look at it now, they’re all dead freakin, Chris Cornell dead.
00:22:01:02 – 00:22:23:20
Agent Palmer
Like a lot of them are. But yeah, I I but but I will argue. I will argue in hindsight because based on the time frame, I think this was recorded. Foo Fighters does exist in the world. And I think the Foo Fighters is a lot more hard rock than grunge. I know there’s still people that are going to say, like, come on, it’s grunge, but it’s not.
00:22:23:20 – 00:22:30:37
Agent Palmer
It’s, it’s it’s I don’t see it as I see it as hard rock. And I definitely think there’s a difference between the two. That’s not it.
00:22:30:37 – 00:22:42:51
Jason Zapata
Might be the right term, but I would, I would dare say they’re a little bit more. They’re a little too again, not probably the right phrase, but the best one I can think of a little too poppy to be. Grunge would be the way I would kind of couch I.
00:22:42:51 – 00:22:45:56
Agent Palmer
Think I might use polished. It’s a little bit, oh.
00:22:45:56 – 00:22:46:33
Jason Zapata
Say.
00:22:46:38 – 00:23:06:15
Agent Palmer
I would, because it’s not. It’s not as down a half step down a hole. It’s not as low, it’s a little bit higher in the frequency and all that stuff. But I, I, I do think that, that if, if, if grunge doesn’t die with Kurt, it’s definitely the high point. It starts going downhill.
00:23:06:19 – 00:23:08:34
Jason Zapata
Oh great. He’s. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:23:08:39 – 00:23:38:21
Agent Palmer
I, I there’s a, there’s a, there’s a piece of this, of history that we’re sharing that I love and that is that I think throughout our friendship, there have been times for both of us and in this, in this scenario and what and what everybody in you and I have just heard, it’s me talking to you. But I think as friends, we have just been sounding boards for each other over the years.
00:23:38:30 – 00:24:08:00
Agent Palmer
This is an example of me basically talking your ear off, but like the tables have been turned many, many times and I think that that’s healthy. There is, you know, because people are listening to this going like me, that he just talks and just listens. It’s not always the case. Sometimes it’s reversed. It’s just we have an example of this that goes back as we’re sitting here now over two decades of like, this is a thing.
00:24:08:05 – 00:24:10:06
Agent Palmer
Yeah, this is what we did.
00:24:10:11 – 00:24:37:40
Jason Zapata
And it’s, it’s good to run an idea by someone and to see what, what their take is on it. And, then, you know, kind of go over the differences. I think that we were both kind of on separate kind of wavelengths with, like, what between Axl and Slash? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So and, I, I think that it’s, you know, the frontman is pretty much the end all be all, of a band like, once the frontman kind of, you know, goes or goes a separate.
00:24:37:40 – 00:24:41:34
Jason Zapata
It’s usually that’s acquaintance. Acquaintance for the, for that.
00:24:41:39 – 00:25:00:46
Agent Palmer
I mean, since then Queen’s been resurrected without I mean, you look, you could argue I can see your face. Nobody else could see his face, but he’s pulling a face. Okay? Everybody needs to know he’s pulling a faith. But it. You can’t argue with the fact that they are now successfully touring. They are creating new music, but they are successfully touring.
00:25:00:46 – 00:25:08:22
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And look, Guns roses is successfully touring again to.
00:25:08:27 – 00:25:18:12
Jason Zapata
Yeah. I mean they’re I think they’re kind of shadows of their former selves, but it’s, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, good a good on them good.
00:25:18:16 – 00:25:19:47
Agent Palmer
Comes for is all band.
00:25:19:52 – 00:25:41:08
Jason Zapata
Oh yeah. Well yeah. But kettle but but that’s funny that you mention that, brief aside, when I was, a couple weekends back, when I was down in Scranton to go see the, the concert Pantera. It’s playing poker. It’s been around for ages now. They have been touring, especially because obviously the losses of Vinnie and Dime.
00:25:41:08 – 00:26:04:30
Jason Zapata
Yeah, but, you know, it’s still, it’s like, wow, it’s stepping in for the guitar, them playing. It’s a completely different experience now. He’s still the frontman, which is it’s it’s an interesting wrinkle to that dynamic. So it still sounds like Pantera but has that weird kind of tweak to it. Yeah. With Zach Wylde on the, on the electric guitar.
00:26:04:35 – 00:26:22:43
Jason Zapata
And then the funny thing is, it all comes around tonight that age again. And, Phil is on the stage. He goes, man, like you, you 90s kids did a good job raising your children. I see a lot of young people in the audience as like a goddamn it is. It is a generational thing, you know? So it’s like, I thought that was that was very interesting.
00:26:22:44 – 00:26:43:54
Agent Palmer
I mean, otherwise it’s dead. Yeah. I mean, otherwise the guns N roses is dead with. I mean, for all my talking about the, Snakepit and then, you know, Duff had some albums and is he put out some albums and all that stuff and ignoring Chinese democracy and what might come out in the future. Rumor is they’re recording again.
00:26:43:59 – 00:27:14:14
Agent Palmer
But like, all that music is just frozen in time. If they’re and and and almost lost, you got to remember, there is a part of all of us that will always listen to our high school and college of music. You might be forward thinking enough and open enough to take in as much new music as possible. I am not that guy.
00:27:14:26 – 00:27:48:58
Agent Palmer
I take in about 2% new music and at that it’s 2% new music. New to me. Not necessarily new new music. For the most part, my listening habits go from 1960s up through this conversation before the millennium. Okay, Mark. And that’s that’s just where my stuff is. However, it stays with me if I don’t pass it along to my kids, my friends, you know, people like, you know, whatever.
00:27:48:58 – 00:28:09:19
Agent Palmer
And so there is a part of it that’s that. I also think that touring, whether we like it or not, social media, seeing stuff on TikTok and being able to be a trend or whatever has given some of these older bands and older music in general. And you live new life.
00:28:09:19 – 00:28:15:51
Jason Zapata
Yes. Yeah, I agree. It’s the that’s the word I’m looking for.
00:28:15:51 – 00:28:29:51
Agent Palmer
It’s the commoditization of music in a way where like, it’s a commodity in this in a sense where, it can now be consumed by people that aren’t necessarily looking to consume it.
00:28:29:56 – 00:28:32:08
Jason Zapata
Yeah. And,
00:28:32:13 – 00:28:51:26
Agent Palmer
And let’s be real, a lot of the music from our era, like, yeah, he might have been on stage in front of all these us and people our age that have kids, and it’s been like, oh, you 90s kids did really well. But do you know what else? We’ve seen a lot of car commercials with music from our high school years of late now.
00:28:51:31 – 00:28:54:04
Jason Zapata
Well, that’s that’s kind of it. It’s.
00:28:54:09 – 00:28:54:36
Agent Palmer
You know.
00:28:54:48 – 00:29:11:32
Jason Zapata
Yeah, I think that’s the, the issue with the current, climate that we have. I think that in lieu of, maybe not talent would be the right word. Creativity. We’ve seen very heavily on nostalgia. Sure. And, the powerful.
00:29:11:34 – 00:29:12:29
Agent Palmer
Drug man, powerful.
00:29:12:29 – 00:29:15:17
Jason Zapata
Drug. It’s doing a lot of heavy lifting lately.
00:29:15:18 – 00:29:16:09
Agent Palmer
Powerful drug.
00:29:16:14 – 00:29:47:13
Jason Zapata
Powerful Joe. Yes. Yes it is. And I think, I don’t know, it’s I think also what going back to your point about social media, I think because of the way trending and how social media works, it’s kind of engineered in a certain way where those types of random discoveries that you would have, like in the, radio store or the record shop or wherever, you would just go to pick up a random CD or vinyl, you know, you don’t have those encounters as frequently.
00:29:47:13 – 00:29:56:45
Jason Zapata
Now, if you if you work at it and you try to just randomize your playlist or to something like that. Yeah, you may you may luck out and find a gem. I don’t.
00:29:56:45 – 00:30:23:53
Agent Palmer
See. I don’t think so. I, I, I think most of the time, Spotify, Amazon Music, YouTube music, these are all platforms designed to keep you happy. And I think that whatever algorithm they’re using is more likely to give you a deep. I’m like, look, I mean, that conversation proves it, right? I’m a fan of guns, Roses and Aerosmith.
00:30:23:53 – 00:30:43:18
Agent Palmer
Okay. None of that’s a surprise to anybody. There are a lot of other bands too, but those bands I am more likely to get a deep cut off of like G and R spaghetti incident, or like one of like, Aerosmith Draw the Line or maybe Gems or Knight in the ruts than I am a band I’ve never heard of.
00:30:43:30 – 00:31:01:33
Agent Palmer
And as an example, I a few weeks ago, actually a couple months ago, I went through all my vinyl and I was listening to it as I was going through it. Some a lot of it was hand me down and I just collected it. I got rid of a bunch of it, but in doing that I listened to and I introduced you to good rats.
00:31:01:33 – 00:31:23:30
Agent Palmer
Yes, yes. All right. Well, good rats, by the way, as a fan of just saying guns N Roses and Aerosmith, Good Rats is in that vein of like, that 70s rock. Like it has the same kind of roots as Aerosmith does, and Aerosmith has a direct correlation to Guns of Roses. Good rats is a band I was probably always going to love.
00:31:23:35 – 00:31:24:56
Agent Palmer
It was never.
00:31:25:05 – 00:31:26:38
Jason Zapata
Gonna hear on your no, it would.
00:31:26:38 – 00:31:46:39
Agent Palmer
Never going to. And it’s one of those things where if we talked to a record store person, you know, I mean, if we walked into a record store and I said, hey, what do you got for somebody who likes this? They might, you know, I happened staunched into good rats. They might actually know, like, oh, well, have you ever heard of good rats?
00:31:46:39 – 00:31:57:34
Agent Palmer
And I think there’s a thing where a human is going to be able to say, like, it’s not quite the same, but it kind of in that valley.
00:31:57:34 – 00:32:02:32
Jason Zapata
Yeah. If you have a music not dead. And we have everyone has one in their group and.
00:32:02:32 – 00:32:03:21
Agent Palmer
Or different.
00:32:03:21 – 00:32:28:16
Jason Zapata
Ones. Yeah. And that’s how our, our friend group works as well. I know, Sean is very much the very his taste are very funny, but he’s still out there trying to find new hard rock heavy metal, and he’ll post things up in the chat. And sometimes it’s, you know, a couple of us are roll our eyes because it’s one of those bands that have like five letters in there.
00:32:28:21 – 00:32:42:35
Jason Zapata
Five. Yeah. Like letters in their name. It’s like, my dark, something or, an acronym. Yeah. It’s just it’s yeah, it’s just the title goes on for forever. But.
00:32:42:40 – 00:33:09:35
Agent Palmer
Well, and I have Chris for that. Yeah. Because I mean, doing the music show helps him. And then as my friend, because I’m not on the show that much, he’s like, hey, by the way, you’d probably like this. And, and we, we all look, you’re right. We all have those people. Yeah, but if you just listen to Spotify, even if you say, like the radio, you know, the radio based on this or that or the other, very rarely are you going to get that oddball that you’re not expecting.
00:33:09:39 – 00:33:35:59
Agent Palmer
Most likely you’ll get that. Oh, I remember that song. Not oh, I’ve never heard this. This is amazing. One of those two things you are definitely going to happen. And the others, probably not unless you talk to a human. Dude, that I, I, I first of all, I want to thank you because I don’t know what possessed us to turn the lights on 20 years ago.
00:33:35:59 – 00:34:16:34
Agent Palmer
I really don’t, but I’m so glad we have that. And I’ve been talking about this for years now. Recently I’ve been, started going through stuff, and I went and I digitally converted all of my old cassette tapes, especially some from the Porta studio, and I’ve listened to some music I created back then to, I, for a guy who then eventually four years later, give or take, from this, did a senior project that was audio based, the fact that I only have one recorded conversation from back then, it’s kind of amazing.
00:34:16:34 – 00:34:26:01
Agent Palmer
But I, I want to thank you because, like, you might be one of the few people from back then of that time that would have taken the time to sit down and record with me.
00:34:26:06 – 00:34:59:22
Jason Zapata
That goes without saying, bro. I, I think it’s trippy hearing our younger selves, join McIntyre. Joey freakin McIntyre. Well, we can confirm that, that comeback never happened, so that that that thankfully did did die. Michael Jackson, though that was a bit of, a prophecy there that, they came to after the fact because as, as he know, as we as everyone knows, he did die afterwards, but.
00:34:59:27 – 00:35:05:08
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but the music career, like, I don’t see like, people will talk about the comeback since I.
00:35:05:13 – 00:35:27:45
Jason Zapata
I he was never the same. He was never the king of pop again. No. And there’s there’s people have many different takes on that. I know there’s actually, a goofy commentator that I follow named Razor Fest. He did a multiple video essay about Michael Jackson and how he feels. For the most part, he is pretty much, villainized.
00:35:27:45 – 00:35:34:06
Jason Zapata
And a lot of the accusations regarding him were were false. I don’t have a dog in that fight.
00:35:34:11 – 00:35:42:10
Agent Palmer
But, Well, it’s a it’s a but but it goes to an art versus artist issue.
00:35:42:15 – 00:35:45:33
Jason Zapata
And that’s very prevalent right now. And, you know, I’ve.
00:35:45:33 – 00:36:11:59
Agent Palmer
Had this conversation for years because I’ve stated, like, I may not like the way Woody Allen lives his life, but I, I love his writing and I think his comedy is hilarious. And I, I know that it’s very hard for some people to separate those two. But by the same token, and this is always my answer, right? If you put a magnifying glass.
00:36:12:01 – 00:36:12:38
Jason Zapata
To on.
00:36:12:38 – 00:36:13:04
Agent Palmer
Any.
00:36:13:04 – 00:36:14:37
Jason Zapata
Yeah, of course, of course.
00:36:14:42 – 00:36:26:55
Agent Palmer
Like I would like to consider myself a genuinely decent person, but I’m sure I’m an ass sometimes. I’m talking to the person who probably has called me and asked more than anyone in the history of me.
00:36:26:56 – 00:36:29:04
Jason Zapata
Right back at you, right back at you.
00:36:29:06 – 00:36:52:14
Agent Palmer
But like I, the amount of things you’re going to have to stop watching, you know, listening to whatever, whatever because you’re like, oh, I don’t like that guy personally. That’s fine. But you like the art. Like, that’s a pretty picture. Like, and and I, I’ve talked about it in sports too, like, all of the heroes of the 30s, 40s and 50s were horrible.
00:36:52:19 – 00:36:56:29
Jason Zapata
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, going on, but.
00:36:56:42 – 00:37:18:04
Agent Palmer
But the there was an unwritten rule among sports reporters that we weren’t going to talk about what happened off the field. We just weren’t. And some of that stuff has come out since then. But for the most part, imagine that those guys and what they were the womanizing and the drinking was actually being reported. And that’s basically what’s being happening now.
00:37:18:09 – 00:37:37:33
Jason Zapata
Yeah. No, not the we’re very, some of us are very puritanical. And the the zealot never stops with the cleansing of his own, of his own house. He he must go out and cleanse other homes. You must cleanse his, his, the, the world and make sure that the the heretic is, is is put to the flame.
00:37:37:38 – 00:38:02:07
Agent Palmer
But, but then you’re left sitting there watching nothing on TV because it was all created by people of ill repute, and you can’t listen to anything because it was all recorded by people of ill repute, and you can’t read any books because it was all written by, you know, people of ill repute. Like, I mean, seriously, at that point you go for a walk and I, you know, hope that the path you’re walking upon wasn’t paved by a person of ill repute.
00:38:02:07 – 00:38:07:06
Agent Palmer
Like, I’m sorry. Like in order to keep up that kind of a lifestyle, it’s hard.
00:38:07:11 – 00:38:24:21
Jason Zapata
And not only that, it’s like that. It’s not. It’s no longer a functioning culture. Like when it when it gets to that extent, you, you where you can’t appreciate something or even have this like simple discourse about without it becoming this yelling match.
00:38:24:21 – 00:38:25:32
Agent Palmer
It’s just a yelling match, man.
00:38:25:41 – 00:38:56:55
Jason Zapata
Yeah, it’s it’s I know it’s a very it’s a very odd time and I would say I think it’s coming. I do think it’s coming to an end. I think that when you look at, some of the things that have happened previously, writers strike that happened last time was over much quicker. I think now people are very skeptical about what’s happening, happening cultural, culturally and they’re they’re not rushing to defense of some things as quickly as they used to.
00:38:57:00 – 00:38:58:34
Jason Zapata
00:38:58:39 – 00:39:33:23
Agent Palmer
I, I disagree, I disagree completely, I think your premise might be okay, but the reason they’re not is because they don’t. I think people have stopped caring. The fervent, oh, did you hear about nobody? Nobody cares. Like we’ve been so inundated by news, quote unquote, because everything’s breaking. Everything’s up to date. Nothing’s ever fully like we. We get breaking news theories so often we mistake them for breaking news.
00:39:33:30 – 00:39:33:49
Jason Zapata
You.
00:39:33:51 – 00:39:46:48
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. And so we are so desensitized that the average person and average. And I’m not picking on anyone. When I say this, the average person reads the headline and that’s good enough.
00:39:46:52 – 00:39:52:59
Jason Zapata
Well, here’s the thing. Mean. It’s the old adage it’s like the you know, the ally has gone around the world before. The truth has even put its pants.
00:39:52:59 – 00:40:03:51
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but yet the reason, the reason that people only read the headline is because tomorrow there will be a contradicting headline. So why read the rest of the words?
00:40:03:51 – 00:40:28:59
Jason Zapata
No, I think it’s not that. I think it’s it’s attention span like that. Everything is engineered right now due to our deteriorated attention span. Some of us YouTube shorts, TikTok. We we know people who are addicted to tick tock. I won’t name names, but, all this is very intentional. To have people’s attention spans limited.
00:40:29:04 – 00:40:31:08
Agent Palmer
It’s not only me. No, no, no, see, I.
00:40:31:08 – 00:40:32:07
Jason Zapata
Wrong, I disagree.
00:40:32:09 – 00:40:51:31
Agent Palmer
I think I think you’re wrong. I think what you’re forgetting is we have created a scenario where in order to make money, you have to sell ads. And the best way to sell ads is to put it in front of content. And the best way to get more ads in front of more people is to just make more content.
00:40:51:36 – 00:41:13:16
Agent Palmer
And since they can only watch one 30 minute program with two ad breaks, with six things apiece, but they can watch 24 TikToks, maybe with an ad embedded, or maybe just promoted TikToks. In that same timespan, I can get more bang for my advertising dollar, I think. I think.
00:41:13:20 – 00:41:38:16
Jason Zapata
They’re way, yeah, either way, it’s it’s creating, it’s creating a habit within people where they would they consume art or content, which is not the same. Not the same. Thank you. They they don’t they’re not appreciating it or they’re not, they’re not having enough time to digest it properly.
00:41:38:16 – 00:41:59:55
Agent Palmer
Well, okay. But here’s the thing. Okay. You and I have watched some very old movies together, and we still talk about many of them to this day. Yeah. And the conversation people heard earlier about music is a conversation that we have often enough. Right? It’s not guns N Roses and Aerosmith. All the time, right. Like we like you to.
00:42:00:00 – 00:42:20:22
Agent Palmer
There are plenty of other bands that we talk about on a regular basis. However, when I read a book, when you read a book, when we read an article of when we watch a documentary, these are the conversations we have and it changes so that conversation, had I started it the same way. Hey buddy, let’s talk about the breakup would be a very different conversation.
00:42:20:22 – 00:43:01:37
Agent Palmer
It would be even if we kept it to another 15 minutes, it’d be very different. 15 minutes. And that’s fine. And that’s dandy for us, but I think we are actively trying to consume longer things. We are actively trying to read novels, full length novels. We are actually trying to write things of substance or create things of substance, or we’re trying to we’re making those attempts and we try as we might to watch television shows and movies and not necessarily just TikTok and YouTube and Instagram stories and whatever the new thing is.
00:43:01:37 – 00:43:10:40
Agent Palmer
And I think you you have to make that conscious decision, because if you don’t make that conscious decision, it’s going to be made for you.
00:43:10:47 – 00:43:41:26
Jason Zapata
Well, that’s the thing. Again, habit forming, habit forming. And that’s why these algorithms exist. They exist for a reason to shape and form behavior. Sure. And usually not very good behavior. But yeah, I just again, going kind of circling back to the, artist versus art, thing. They’re like, that’s the whole point. Artists have always been on the fringe, on the on the boundaries of what?
00:43:41:26 – 00:43:59:00
Jason Zapata
Of what is acceptable and I don’t understand how it became in vogue to have, you know, these, these, these standards which most people don’t apply to themselves, let alone, you know, to, to, to an artist. So I it’s again, it’s very odd.
00:43:59:00 – 00:44:24:12
Agent Palmer
And it goes back to something that people keep telling me, but I don’t know how to articulate. People don’t understand. It’s not you don’t just sit down and record. A podcast is not just sitting down, hitting record and then hitting publish like it can be that, but a good one’s not like that. And a blog post is not just sitting down and writing words and hitting publish.
00:44:24:12 – 00:44:52:43
Agent Palmer
There’s editing involved. Same with poetry and books. Heck, the average movie, independent or big, other or otherwise, goes through draft after draft, even if it’s only one writer and it’s like an independent feature and it’s not a studio film, it still goes to other people and it gets revised and revisited and maybe put on a shelf. So you get some space and you come back and you take a look at look.
00:44:52:48 – 00:44:59:44
Agent Palmer
Successful things take time. And what happens is people go, that looks easy.
00:44:59:49 – 00:45:00:23
Jason Zapata
00:45:00:28 – 00:45:11:18
Agent Palmer
That looks easy. And maybe all of us and you are included in this because I don’t think anybody has any idea the hell I put you through.
00:45:11:23 – 00:45:12:53
Jason Zapata
Oh, in the editing process.
00:45:12:53 – 00:45:41:22
Agent Palmer
To get your stuff to publish. But I think we make it seem fun, and we make it seem easy now. It’s easy for us and it’s fun for us. But it is by no means actually easy. We make it look easy because we are having fun doing it most of the time. But people don’t see me. And you talk for 45 minutes with a conversation that starts with, I’m missing a word.
00:45:41:26 – 00:46:02:38
Agent Palmer
You know, they don’t. Nobody sees that. And we don’t talk about that enough. But maybe we should. Maybe we should never tell people a podcast is fun. No. For every minute I record, I spend three minutes editing. You know, for every stanza in your book of poetry, there are 15 variations of that that.
00:46:02:38 – 00:46:03:05
Jason Zapata
Have been.
00:46:03:10 – 00:46:14:14
Agent Palmer
Thrown away. Yeah, right. Like maybe we should spend time to really, like, convey the art, the actual factual art.
00:46:14:14 – 00:46:31:32
Jason Zapata
And that may be more necessary than we think right now, given certain advancements with, technology, you know, expressing that. Yeah. Just totally just reinforcing the idea of the human pursuit of this and,
00:46:31:37 – 00:46:55:50
Agent Palmer
Well, look, you could take your pleasure plagiarism engine and do whatever you want with it. But I will tell you this, and I’ve said it before, and I will say it again. The loudest people for AI are the tech bros reeling from their NFT failures. And I’m guessing that they want you to buy in now before the bottom falls out.
00:46:55:50 – 00:46:59:36
Agent Palmer
Look, as a tool, AI is wonderful as.
00:46:59:36 – 00:47:02:25
Jason Zapata
An actual and also also very inescapable.
00:47:02:27 – 00:47:10:11
Agent Palmer
As a platform. It is, determined to fail because it cannot.
00:47:10:23 – 00:47:11:14
Jason Zapata
Think I don’t know.
00:47:11:14 – 00:47:12:37
Agent Palmer
And there is going to look, I’m.
00:47:12:37 – 00:47:17:51
Jason Zapata
Telling you, sadly, I, look, I, I, I would love to agree, but I don’t know.
00:47:17:53 – 00:47:39:15
Agent Palmer
Look, it’s a plagiarism engine. You have to put stuff into it in order to get something out of it. And all it’s going to take is somebody to figure out, hey, wait a minute. This seems like a Disney movie or this seems like a Pixar movie. And for Pixar to ask where they got that script from, what did they feed the monster to get this from it?
00:47:39:24 – 00:47:46:36
Agent Palmer
And all they have to say is, well, maybe we said at one of your movies and there will be a lawsuit the likes of which we have.
00:47:46:36 – 00:47:56:13
Jason Zapata
I don’t know if it’s justified changing. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know how you the law would be very interesting on that. I grant you it’s not ready yet. Oh, no.
00:47:56:17 – 00:48:23:44
Agent Palmer
This is all the government. Yeah. Trying to get ahead of it. And if there’s one thing we know, it’s the government’s are never ahead of anything. No, but I will say it’s it’s going to be interesting because people are willing to give stuff away. People are willing to give everything away. Hey, by the way, I hate I hope you know that every time you type into Google, they’re using that for to teach their AI.
00:48:23:56 – 00:48:24:29
Agent Palmer
And every time.
00:48:24:36 – 00:48:26:35
Jason Zapata
You do that, you mean in terms of just. Yeah, people.
00:48:26:45 – 00:48:36:06
Agent Palmer
Like, look, okay, we could come out tomorrow and say that every major social media platform is going to teach your stuff to train.
00:48:36:06 – 00:48:38:04
Jason Zapata
There’s AI. Yeah. And guess what? There.
00:48:38:07 – 00:48:41:50
Agent Palmer
No one is going to stop using it.
00:48:41:50 – 00:48:52:50
Jason Zapata
Yeah, well, here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I certainly agree with you that people are very liberal and free in terms of, the data. They may not be consciously aware that they’re giving.
00:48:52:50 – 00:48:55:32
Agent Palmer
I think even the stuff they are consciously aware of, they don’t care.
00:48:55:32 – 00:49:07:36
Jason Zapata
Yeah. But yeah, but that’s I mean, there’s there’s some stuff to the in their minds, it’s just it’s not important. It’s not significant enough. Yeah. For them to not utilize a particular app or feature.
00:49:07:36 – 00:49:07:54
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:49:07:58 – 00:49:32:46
Jason Zapata
Or or option on the phone, whatever went to wherever you may be. I think some people are getting a little bit more savvy with it. I think some people are kind of starting to use other technologies to prevent that type of thing. Keep their data safe, keep their, you know, their interest, you know, to themselves. But, yeah.
00:49:32:50 – 00:49:45:02
Agent Palmer
We’re not going to solve it. It’s just not going to get solved tonight, and it’s probably not going to get solved it soon. I don’t know when this episode’s going to air. I’ll say that right now, but I will tell you this. It won’t be solved by the time this comes out.
00:49:45:02 – 00:50:09:21
Jason Zapata
No, no, but I think that there will always be that, that spectrum of people that are very that they just don’t care and don’t know, let themselves get chipped like they’ll they’ll get microchip, they’ll, you know, they just don’t care because it’s the convenience at that point. For them. It’s simplicity. They’re not concerned about those things because they don’t feel that those things are even important to them to begin with.
00:50:09:26 – 00:50:28:19
Jason Zapata
You know? And then you have the people way on the other side of the spectrum. They’re in a bunker somewhere and, you know, North Dakota preparing for the end of the world. So, yeah, it’s it’s a weird, you know, we’re Americans. We’re all freaking weird. So it’s it’s that that said spectrum that we have to deal with, with all that.
00:50:28:24 – 00:50:34:10
Jason Zapata
00:50:34:15 – 00:50:52:16
Agent Palmer
Thank goodness for old friends. Seriously, I don’t know about any of you listening to this right now, but I am extremely thankful to have an old friend still a part of my life and my projects that I don’t have to coerce him in any way to sit down and listen to us from the past and continue the conversation in the present.
00:50:52:21 – 00:51:12:10
Agent Palmer
This is such a remarkable episode. If you only consider that the start of this conversation was multiple decades old. When we sat down to listen to it together and continue it. Now, as we’ve stated, we’ve had these kinds of conversations so often that they’re second nature to us. We often disagree, but it’s part of what makes our friendship unique.
00:51:12:15 – 00:51:39:46
Agent Palmer
I have other friends who I agree with more often, but I’d much rather argue with Zapata than agree with someone else. Differing points of view challenge and refine our own views. This is why we enjoy each other’s company and we collaborate at every possible chance. Getting outside our own echo chambers is underrated and under-recognized. Do it. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 113.
00:51:39:46 – 00:51:59:47
Agent Palmer
And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact myself and my guest, Jason Zapata in the show notes. There you can find more information about my guests work at Jason zapata.com. The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur.
00:52:00:00 – 00:52:18:24
Agent Palmer
Email can be sent to this show with the Palmer files at gmail.com. And remember your home for all things Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:52:18:29 – 00:52:26:19
Unknown
You.
00:52:26:24 – 00:52:49:18
Unknown
See?
00:52:49:23 – 00:52:54:56
Unknown
Me?
00:52:55:01 – 00:52:57:22
Agent Palmer
All right. Jason, do you have one final question for me?
00:52:57:27 – 00:53:04:15
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Who was the keyboardist for Guns and Roses?
00:53:04:17 – 00:53:05:08
Agent Palmer
Dizzy Reed.
00:53:05:12 – 00:53:15:33
Jason Zapata
And on top of that. Is there a stigma attached to that particular instrument in in Rock?
00:53:15:38 – 00:53:46:52
Agent Palmer
I want to say no. I want to say no because, you know, people might pick on dizzy Reed for being a member of guns N roses, especially after appetite, because Use Your Illusion happens and features dizzy Reed on keyboards. Heavily. Heavily. Heavily. Heavily. Right. However, e to my knowledge and obviously social media probably would have treated it differently when Axl sits down in his best Elton John during the Use Your Illusion tour.
00:53:46:57 – 00:54:07:54
Agent Palmer
No one’s like, oh, he’s Elton John. This isn’t rock n roll anymore, or this isn’t my hard rock or this isn’t my, you know, guns went on tour during the Use your Illusion tour with Metallica. I still don’t think any of those fans were like, screw this guy and his keyboard and his band. I just don’t, I just don’t.
00:54:08:07 – 00:54:15:11
Agent Palmer
And I think that it is all about how it is used. Axl used it as a theatrical piece. He really did.
00:54:15:11 – 00:54:22:26
Jason Zapata
So it’s more you’re you’re stating that it’s more acceptable based off of how it’s used.
00:54:22:26 – 00:54:23:29
Agent Palmer
I think it’s how it’s used.
00:54:23:29 – 00:54:31:02
Jason Zapata
I really don’t think it’s just a general kind of, you know, perception of it. I think there is to a certain extent, I do, I don’t.
00:54:31:02 – 00:54:51:58
Agent Palmer
I don’t think, I don’t think so. But then again, you’re asking me. Yeah. Okay. You’re asking me. I’m, I’m a guy who likes music from the 60s, 70s and 80s. Like, I’m. I’m okay. Like, I’m not ever going to be like, I can’t believe. Like, if there’s one thing I lament, it’s that I can’t play the keys. Man, if I could play the ivories, it’d be different.
00:54:51:58 – 00:55:13:04
Agent Palmer
But that’s the one I can’t play, right. So I know, I know, I don’t think there is, you know, because I will say this. Okay. In an alternate universe where dizzy Reed doesn’t join guns N roses, Axl is just playing a lot more piano during the concert. I really believe that.
00:55:13:05 – 00:55:23:36
Jason Zapata
I wonder, I wonder because I would like to have seen it, because I think that they would be kind of an interesting bridge to some of the newer stuff.
00:55:23:36 – 00:55:24:27
Agent Palmer
What.
00:55:24:32 – 00:55:30:07
Jason Zapata
Like muse? Like muse is very instrumental. A lot of piano.
00:55:30:12 – 00:55:32:50
Agent Palmer
Or synth or keyboard or what have you.
00:55:32:52 – 00:55:47:10
Jason Zapata
Yeah. So I think but then again, lot of people are like, you know, use is kind of known for that. So they kind of think where they should just be easily categorized as just like hard rock. It kind of it’s like alt and it’s all this other kind of weird.
00:55:47:16 – 00:56:09:03
Agent Palmer
Stop stop stop stop stop stop. 5150 has so much keyboard in it. But did anybody be like, Fuck Van Halen? No, they didn’t. Right now might be one of their biggest hits like popular hits.
00:56:09:03 – 00:56:09:55
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:56:10:00 – 00:56:13:54
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if it really eclipses jump, but it might.
00:56:13:59 – 00:56:15:35
Jason Zapata
And that’s what Van Hagar to that.
00:56:15:35 – 00:56:33:23
Agent Palmer
Was Van Hagar. But nobody was like, screw them. No. Everybody’s like, I love 5150. I Van Hagar is good. There are plenty of people that will choose Van Hagar or Van Halen, and very few of them will actually say the other one sucks. It’s just their preference of the two. Yeah.
00:56:33:23 – 00:56:39:17
Jason Zapata
So I want to say this. I would say this. And again, I’m not I’m posing questions and I, you know, stating anybody.
00:56:39:17 – 00:56:44:52
Agent Palmer
Being like, oh, I fucking hate Bohemian Rhapsody. That’s the too much piano in it. No.
00:56:45:04 – 00:57:01:47
Jason Zapata
Well not a thing but I see. Yes. But I think again, don’t don’t mistake what I’m trying to say here. I think that, those are very iconic songs. So I think in terms of like Martin Tynes Martin usage of that particular.
00:57:01:47 – 00:57:13:53
Agent Palmer
I think it’s there. I think it truly is there. I will argue that, especially musicians like Taylor Swift.
00:57:13:57 – 00:57:15:29
Jason Zapata
Oh, God. Probably.
00:57:15:29 – 00:57:40:38
Agent Palmer
No, no, no. Hear me, I, I, I at some point I will listen to Taylor Swift. It’s not it’s just not I, I’ve listened to whatever I’ve consumed through the either, but I would argue that every single one of her songs is probably applicable as an acoustic version or a piano version just by itself, because she seems like the kind of person who’s writing it musically for whatever.
00:57:40:43 – 00:58:01:42
Agent Palmer
And she, you know, every once in a while on like a social media, you’ll see like, oh, she did what you’re going to call it on the piano or the an acoustic version of this. I think if you write good music, the instrument is almost secondary. And I mean that generally speaking. Yeah. If you play with good music, the instrument is secondary.
00:58:01:51 – 00:58:08:41
Agent Palmer
So I also think it depends on that. But I also would say it depends.
00:58:08:41 – 00:58:28:03
Jason Zapata
And it’s very funny. We got onto this, this subject and this may be one of the longest last question segments where we’ve ever had here. So we’re gonna we’re gonna drag this out a little bit longer because, as a joke, that’s kind of been an ongoing gag amongst our group of friends has been me being converted into a taste with fan.
00:58:28:08 – 00:58:55:59
Jason Zapata
So during the recent, get together, we had, I joke that we should throw a lot of Taylor Swift onto the group playlist. So, and just for context here, these are all metal heads. Hard rock guys. Crunch guys. You know, we’ve gone to God knows how many shows live. Theater of the Living Arts, Electric Factory, major arenas, Mayhem Festival, Extreme Steel, etc..
00:58:56:04 – 00:59:18:39
Jason Zapata
Paint a picture here. So we’re we’re all sitting down listening to this playlist, right. And suddenly Karma by Taylor South comes on and it’s hysterical because the guys didn’t expect it. And end up happening. Sean, who was there, had snuck it on to the playlist. So it’s that little record scratch moment. But let me say this. Let me say this.
00:59:18:44 – 00:59:44:42
Jason Zapata
The joke has gone on. So now that Kyle’s wife now sends me Taylor Swift stuff in the group chat and she has me listen to it, and I give my honest critique of it. So I will say this, the most recent song, I, I love this because I get it’s funny and I don’t mind taking a little take it a little, shot here on this, but, there is a duet that she did on a song called exile.
00:59:44:42 – 00:59:53:29
Jason Zapata
I don’t know who the guy is, who’s saying whether, but there’s some legitimate talent there, man. And it’s it’s a very, again, very impressive usage of the piano.
00:59:53:29 – 01:00:09:28
Agent Palmer
Well, so I will argue. Yeah. That all of those guys have children. Yeah. And some of them have daughters. It is inescapable for them now for Kyle.
01:00:09:28 – 01:00:12:52
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe not shot the guy.
01:00:12:56 – 01:00:13:33
Agent Palmer
I’m I’m just.
01:00:13:34 – 01:00:13:47
Jason Zapata
Saying.
01:00:13:47 – 01:00:42:14
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it’s inescapable. And I believe that, perhaps. As, as, as the, the generation. Well two generations on the people who are in high school now, you know the people that grew up with Taylor Swift. It’s also the same generation that doesn’t really care about gender as much or gender roles as what I’ll say.
01:00:42:19 – 01:01:08:03
Agent Palmer
And so liking a band like Metallica and T Swift is not a contradiction to them. And I think what you will find is that that generation, the T Swift fans probably like a greater swath of genres of music than we did. And you and I, I like to think of ourselves as fairly open musically. But you know what?
01:01:08:03 – 01:01:29:04
Agent Palmer
If I’m being honest, that generation that has, made Metallica a number one fan, a number one hit because of Stranger Things and also puts T Swift on the top of the charts. Like I believe that they are more accepting of just anything that’s quality, period.
01:01:29:09 – 01:01:47:51
Jason Zapata
I agree, and again, I also think that’s due to algorithm making those types of songs and that type of, you know, anything is very decent, grossly popular available to them. Because here’s the thing. Like who are the who are the big acts that are touring right now? It’s Metallica, Taylor Swift, which is crazy when you think about it going.
01:01:47:54 – 01:01:50:05
Agent Palmer
Through, which is like still touring the fighters is still.
01:01:50:19 – 01:02:07:00
Jason Zapata
Still touring, but but in terms of like the the size of the audience and the the market share and the the influence that that’s out there right now, they those two acts are like bar none huge. So it’s like I said, it proves I do think it proves your point.
01:02:07:01 – 01:02:12:07
Agent Palmer
I think that our closed circle is the reason you include Metallica there.
01:02:12:11 – 01:02:19:11
Jason Zapata
No, not at all. I think at the DMC 72, I think it’s the I’m 72 tour that’s out right now. It’s been it’s a it’s been a monster tournament.
01:02:19:16 – 01:02:26:31
Agent Palmer
It’s been a monster tour for them. Sure. But I think it pales in comparison. And I think there are plenty of acts that we don’t pay attention to.
01:02:26:33 – 01:02:30:57
Jason Zapata
Oh, like, I like comparing the two, like, oh no, of course you’re so in between.
01:02:30:57 – 01:02:34:03
Agent Palmer
They’re. No, no, I think you’re missing. I’m just saying no.
01:02:34:08 – 01:02:35:43
Jason Zapata
I’m not I’m not going to make that comparison.
01:02:35:48 – 01:02:49:31
Agent Palmer
Dude. But I yeah, I’m to the original. No more keys. The better I don’t care. Yeah. Nice. It sounds good. That sounds good. Bring it down, man. Bring it down. You can dance to this shit.
01:02:49:36 – 01:02:50:56
Jason Zapata
Dude, I’m fine with a good jig.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).