Episode 58 features Professor Robert Eskra, Esquire, a lawyer turned teacher, who is here to tell the tale of how he became a lawyer and then why he isn’t as well as higher education, the archer’s mindset, being a jack of all trades, and much much more.
Throughout the conversation, we discuss:
- Why Lawyering?
- Law School
- The Bar Exam
- College Class Attendance
- Arguing the Lawyer Way
- Is a hot dog a sandwich?
- How do you define breakfast?
- Being a Lawyer
- A false bill of goods
- The search for what’s next?
- Teaching
- Jack of All Trades
- Meaningful memories
- And much more
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcript–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:30:47
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com. 100 Things We’ve Lost to the internet is a comprehensive and contemplative reading experience for everyone. Meet me at the food court, Jasper mall examines a dying breed, and since the last episode, I’ve added Sam to the list of people I trust to suggest books for me to read. This is The Palmer Files episode 58 featuring Professor Robert skra, Esquire, a lawyer turned teacher who is here to tell the tale of how he became a lawyer and then why he isn’t as well as higher education.
00:00:30:48 – 00:01:09:18
Agent Palmer
The archer’s mindset being a jack of all trades and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:09:22 – 00:01:40:56
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 58th episode is Professor Robert Eskra, Esquire. And while that may seem like quite a title, Professor Robert Eskra, Esquire encapsulates Rob’s past and present and future. He did pass the bar, hence Esquire. He is currently officially an assistant professor, but as we all know outside of academia, the prefix to professor isn’t as important as it is inside academia.
00:01:41:03 – 00:02:05:38
Agent Palmer
So the prefix to professor is for everyone to know what he does now and the lack of it is what could be in his future. What you are about to hear is how Rob became a professor through going to law school, taking the bar exam, actually being a lawyer and then choosing another way. Of course there are a few small meandering tangents, but that is to be expected.
00:02:05:43 – 00:02:32:44
Agent Palmer
Before we get going, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer and this show at The Palmer Files. You can find Rob on his Twitch stream, where he streams a professor plays and big brain streams on Twitch.tv FP Eskra that’s FP s Kira or you can visit his YouTube channel by going to tiny url.com/big brain lecture.
00:02:32:49 – 00:02:54:51
Agent Palmer
Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. So without further ado, his name is Rob and he doesn’t want to work. He just wants to bang on the table all day.
00:02:54:56 – 00:03:11:22
Agent Palmer
Rob, I know that you at one point were a lawyer in your illustrious career of careers and that now you are not. So let’s start with the easiest question. Why lawyering?
00:03:11:26 – 00:03:12:59
Robert Eskra
What are.
00:03:13:04 – 00:03:14:34
Speaker 3
00:03:14:39 – 00:03:36:46
Robert Eskra
I don’t yeah, that’s a I it’s funny, it’s not necessarily the easiest question because I don’t think it was one of those things where it was like I wanted to become a lawyer because like, I guess the same reason most people probably like, say that they want to become a lawyer. And that is because, like, it’s one, you think it’s a job, it’s going to pay you well.
00:03:36:51 – 00:03:43:54
Robert Eskra
And the way it’s portrayed on TV makes it seem like a fairly glamorous and fun job.
00:03:44:06 – 00:03:48:16
Agent Palmer
Yes, but and the pay make doctoring look glamorous and fun, too.
00:03:48:18 – 00:03:53:53
Robert Eskra
They do. But here’s the thing. How many lawyers do you know like me?
00:03:53:57 – 00:03:56:15
Agent Palmer
Well, like, yeah, I know three.
00:03:56:20 – 00:04:11:47
Robert Eskra
Well, you know three. Have you ever asked them about what their job is like? I mean, you may have because this is kind of like what you do, but like, I bet the average person, all your lawyer. That’s so cool. And that’s where the conversation stops.
00:04:11:52 – 00:04:35:50
Agent Palmer
Well, I think that that’s. But you know what? I think in most professions that’s where people stop, like, oh, you’re a teacher. Oh, you’re a doctor. Oh, you’re a nurse. Oh, you’re a surgeon. I don’t think people want to know anymore because they’re afraid of like, oh, like whatever they can conjure as the worst thing. Like, oh, you’re a doctor.
00:04:35:50 – 00:04:48:11
Agent Palmer
How was your day? I killed someone, but, you know, there’s no coming back from that, right? Like, even if that’s the worst that could possibly happen, you don’t ask the follow up because you are so afraid.
00:04:48:16 – 00:05:01:37
Robert Eskra
That’s kind of the same how, lawyers are. Because, like, I knew lawyers growing up, and it was like they were looking back, right? I get why they were the way that they.
00:05:01:37 – 00:05:04:35
Speaker 3
Were, and.
00:05:04:40 – 00:05:32:18
Robert Eskra
They were because they were like, I don’t know, they dressed in suits and they would usually they, they, they just had an air of importance around them. And they always looked busy. And you thought it was because they were out doing really cool things and like this thing that they were at, which was usually some like high school event because they were like the parent of a kid or something like, it’s like this was like an annoyance so that they could get back to doing the shit that, like you saw on TV and and that’s again how you picture it, right?
00:05:32:18 – 00:05:37:36
Robert Eskra
And it’s like, oh, this is this is, you know, Tom’s father, he’s a lawyer. And you’re like, oh, you’re dead.
00:05:37:42 – 00:05:40:20
Agent Palmer
You know, a lawyer.
00:05:40:25 – 00:06:05:36
Robert Eskra
And there’s like this mystical kind of thing surrounding the profession. Yeah. And, you know, I wanted to be a part of that because I grew up in a, you know, a lower middle class household. My mom worked part time at a tanning salon. My father, he worked at a, a design firm. He went to Johnson Technical College when he was, and he learned AutoCAD.
00:06:05:36 – 00:06:35:35
Robert Eskra
And that’s basically what he’s been doing his entire life. But it was that was the those were my my parents were divorced. So like it was two houses. My stepfather he was like like in in administration of like a plastic making company. Okay. They make bathroom stalls is what they did. So like if you went into, like, a bathroom, you know, the plastic stalls, like, he would make those, or he was in the company that made most of those in the area in which I live.
00:06:35:39 – 00:07:01:19
Robert Eskra
And then my stepmom was like, I’m still not exactly sure what she does, but, but it’s like it’s kind of like, she does like, accounting, like work, secretarial work, but like, usually administrative assistant is probably the best kind of classification for the type of work she does. And I knew that I didn’t want to do any of those things, but, like, I loved the movie liar, liar.
00:07:01:24 – 00:07:21:43
Robert Eskra
And being a lawyer looked really fun in that. And I liked Law and Order and the prosecutors were cool as shit. And then I like, movies that are TV shows like, Boston Legal and defense attorneys like, Cool the shit. Right? And then there was like, as I was in college, there was a show on USA called suits, which I think lasted.
00:07:21:45 – 00:07:27:12
Robert Eskra
And then the Princess, Megan Merkel, she was in that too, right? Like, oh, being a lawyer looks real fucking cool.
00:07:27:12 – 00:07:39:46
Agent Palmer
So like, totally do it. So you want to be a lawyer when you go to school? When you, when you graduate from high school? Is that like, is it at this point where I’m all in like, no.
00:07:39:51 – 00:07:44:39
Robert Eskra
No, that’s actually so back it up. I originally wanted to be a state trooper.
00:07:44:44 – 00:07:46:24
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:07:46:29 – 00:07:49:19
Robert Eskra
In middle school, I had gone to camp cadet.
00:07:49:19 – 00:07:52:02
Agent Palmer
Do you like rules? It’s,
00:07:52:07 – 00:07:53:16
Speaker 3
Well.
00:07:53:20 – 00:08:24:03
Robert Eskra
So that goes. That’s part of it. It’s. I like I like arguing well, but arguing there’s because there’s, well, there’s a, like an art argument though, which I law school actually provided me a greater appreciation for. But like I, it’s funny though, because after law school, I realized that I sort of already argued like a lawyer in a way, but I didn’t know why law school taught me why that sort of arguing was good.
00:08:24:11 – 00:08:40:27
Robert Eskra
Right? I thought it was just being fun and annoying and, like, I can, but it’s like, legitimately how lawyers argued. I’ll give you an example in a second, but originally I wanted to be a state trooper. And then my one of my best friend’s father was a state trooper. He talked me out of it. He’s like, don’t do it.
00:08:40:38 – 00:09:02:32
Robert Eskra
You’re smarter than this. You don’t need to do this. It’s it’s it’s awful. And he was like, on the verge of retiring, and he retired, like, when I had, like, by the time I graduated high school. So I go. And I was a criminal justice major in college, and one of my teachers was an attorney. And again, there was that like er and I’m like, well, I could do that.
00:09:02:32 – 00:09:21:10
Robert Eskra
And my advisor, she was like, yeah, you’re smart. You could totally do like you could become an attorney. And I was like, all right, well then that’s what I will do. And so like, that’s everything kind of like aimed that way. Went through college, applied, you know, took the LSATs, which is the test to get into law school.
00:09:21:14 – 00:09:27:55
Robert Eskra
I did okay on them. I didn’t study for them, which I should have. If I had studied for them. I may have gotten into a better law school.
00:09:27:57 – 00:09:28:28
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:09:28:42 – 00:09:31:57
Robert Eskra
Not to say the law school I went to was bad. Like, it’s just.
00:09:32:02 – 00:09:45:00
Agent Palmer
Like, okay, all right. You’ve you’ve aced the Lsat. So you’re you’re you’re pick one and Harvard’s going to take you and you got like a C, so, you’re not going to the Ivy League.
00:09:45:04 – 00:10:03:38
Robert Eskra
So sort of okay, so there’s, there’s a website that you, you use, it’s called, Oh, I can’t even remember the name of it, which is funny because I actually have to show it to students now, as, like when they want. I say, go to this website and you’re going to have to this is what you can get yourself into.
00:10:03:42 – 00:10:35:02
Robert Eskra
But it’s a website. And you, you do everything for the Lsat. It’s Lsat prep. It’s you can purchase training courses, you register for the Lsat, and then once you get your score, you get your scores through that website. And then they it has like a scale from lowest score to the highest score. And for every school like that, you can there’s a link to every school where you can apply, and you can click on the school and it will show you your chances of getting in based on your all SAT scores, based on a combination of your Lsat and your GPA in college.
00:10:35:03 – 00:10:53:31
Robert Eskra
Okay. And it was always kind of like a sweet middle spot. Like the guaranteed in and the you have a slight chance of getting in. But then there was like the sweet middle spot where it’s like, you’re in here. It’s like it’s worth applying if you fall in this little shaded area, and Harvard and all those Ivy League ones are way at the top.
00:10:53:31 – 00:11:18:51
Robert Eskra
Yeah. And then there were some schools, like. So I went to what was, Weidner University Law School. Okay. In Harrisburg, which is now called, what’s it called? The Commonwealth Law School. Because they separated from Weidner Winer University. Law is its own thing in Delaware now and then. Commonwealth is its own thing. But I can still say I graduated from Commonwealth sort of.
00:11:18:56 – 00:11:34:28
Robert Eskra
But I still call Weidner University School of Law. And their shaded area was very large because they were essentially an open enrollment law school. And the way they could do that is they would accept most people for the first year, and then by the end of the third year, drop the bottom third.
00:11:34:33 – 00:11:35:31
Agent Palmer
Oh, nice.
00:11:35:36 – 00:11:44:52
Robert Eskra
So like you, if you didn’t make the bottom third, they just kicked you out. And so it’s like you wasted 15 grand.
00:11:44:57 – 00:11:55:43
Agent Palmer
So all right, real quick, but like you are. How far along in your undergrad before you switch. Which by the way.
00:11:55:48 – 00:11:56:40
Speaker 3
00:11:56:45 – 00:12:15:08
Agent Palmer
You were at least on the right track because my understanding of higher education is that if you were a criminal justice, the switch to pre-law or whatever, not crazy. It’s not like you went from art to pre-law, which would have been like, oh, you’re going to spend an extra year at least.
00:12:15:13 – 00:12:35:26
Robert Eskra
Here’s where the misunderstandings begin. Oh, you don’t there. You don’t need a particular degree to go to law school, okay? You just need a bachelor’s degree. That’s it. Oh. All right. And and the actually the requirements to become an attorney are you need a bachelor’s degree, a law school degree, and you need to pass the bar, and that’s it.
00:12:35:30 – 00:12:40:13
Robert Eskra
Except in California and California, you just need to pass the bar.
00:12:40:18 – 00:12:43:20
Agent Palmer
Wait, wait, wait. So I don’t need a bachelor’s degree.
00:12:43:29 – 00:13:04:00
Robert Eskra
Or or a, law school degree. You just need to pass the bar. But that’s it. California has decided that you can do that. So in to counteract act, they’re just going to make their bar exam the worst one in the country. And it’s it’s legitimately the hardest bar in the country. And so but but what happens is you don’t need to go to law school.
00:13:04:00 – 00:13:19:32
Robert Eskra
But if you could pass that bar, you become an attorney in California and also in every other state in the country. Whereas like I pass the bar in PA, PA only has reciprocity with 35 other states. I mean, like, it’s.
00:13:19:32 – 00:13:22:43
Agent Palmer
Still pretty good. I mean, it’s it’s I mean, it’s not bad.
00:13:22:53 – 00:13:35:06
Robert Eskra
PA is is pretty decent weak. It’s like and then there’s states like Jersey who has a much easier bar and they don’t have reciprocity with nearly enough. Okay. But we’re in PA and we like to shit on Jersey anyway.
00:13:35:11 – 00:13:36:36
Speaker 3
So.
00:13:36:40 – 00:14:04:26
Agent Palmer
All right. So I want to go back to young Rob and you are going to law school. You’ve just done four years of undergraduate. Are you looking like I know it’s your career? I know it’s what you’ve decided at that this time you’re going to do, but you’re going to spend. You just spent four years after just having spent 12 years in school.
00:14:04:31 – 00:14:10:34
Agent Palmer
You are now of your own accord of going for more school or more school.
00:14:10:34 – 00:14:21:38
Robert Eskra
Yes, absolutely. I always liked school. Okay, I did not. I like when no, I didn’t like school until college. That’s when I liked school.
00:14:21:38 – 00:14:24:00
Agent Palmer
I, I, I’m with you.
00:14:24:05 – 00:14:43:11
Robert Eskra
It’s that that environment suited me. The idea that like, you know, it’s it’s kind of, I don’t know, it’s the, the whole invite the college environment that was like where I came. That’s where I actually I kind of grew into myself. I didn’t really find who I was. Personality wise until college. Like late college.
00:14:43:11 – 00:15:07:55
Agent Palmer
We’re talking I cannot empathize, sympathize and and all the ises with you in no right because I, I was a kid. Yeah. I mean, yeah, band and cross-country and stuff, but those things aren’t those things are really getting out there. Because if you’re in band, you’re in band with a lot of other people who are in bands that are fairly like you.
00:15:08:00 – 00:15:34:08
Agent Palmer
And not to put too fine a point on it. And, and then when I get to college, student government, like the, the, the college newspaper, maybe a little bit of other like committees and things like I, I actually found that like, oh wait, I, I don’t mind doing these other like I don’t mind volunteering. I don’t mind giving my time to something bigger than myself.
00:15:34:08 – 00:15:42:02
Agent Palmer
Right. Like I was the whatever the, college accreditation that comes through every five or 8 or 10 years or whatever it is.
00:15:42:03 – 00:15:44:30
Robert Eskra
A, it’s middle states. Middle here.
00:15:44:30 – 00:16:09:52
Agent Palmer
Yes. Yeah, I was on the middle. I was the student representative for middle States on my campus. So like, so like I did all these things. You wouldn’t be caught me dead in high school doing any of these things, right. Like. Yeah. And and even freshman year, I’m freshman year, I’m the atypical. Let’s make this animal house like I did.
00:16:09:57 – 00:16:25:11
Agent Palmer
What do you mean? I have to go to class? Like, I, I was absolutely a probably more just my first semester. And then I got put on academic probation and spent the second semester trying desperately to get off.
00:16:25:15 – 00:16:39:34
Robert Eskra
Yeah, yeah, I had my I had my my first semester, I was still in, like high school mode. You have to go to class every day. And then I realized in my second semester, oh, you don’t. That’s when I had my my troublesome semester with my second semester.
00:16:39:39 – 00:16:40:43
Agent Palmer
Everybody’s got one.
00:16:40:43 – 00:16:42:11
Robert Eskra
I feel like everybody’s got that one.
00:16:42:11 – 00:16:48:15
Agent Palmer
It’s like, oh, wait. And then you you come to your realization of like, oh no, that’s what this is.
00:16:48:22 – 00:16:52:28
Robert Eskra
The key is, is the faster you come to that realization, the better off you are. I don’t know if.
00:16:52:28 – 00:17:22:41
Agent Palmer
That’s true, because I feel like you like I, I guess in full disclosure, not that I have to, but in full disclosure, the only reason I was on academic probation was attendance. Now, I argued till I was blue in the face that I had passed all of my tests, and I didn’t have any failing grade. Yeah, but at a certain point, absences did not bode well for your grades.
00:17:22:50 – 00:17:35:36
Agent Palmer
So if you got a B, if you missed enough classes, you were getting a D or worse. Yeah. And as a freshman, first semester freshman, I had a lot of eight and 9 a.m. classes that it’s just.
00:17:35:36 – 00:17:44:15
Robert Eskra
I hate them. I teach some now and I hate them. It’s awful. All right. Classes are the worst thing that could have ever been created.
00:17:44:15 – 00:18:05:42
Agent Palmer
So. So you are choosing to go to more school to more, and you’re liking it at this point, which I can understand why, by the time I hit junior and senior year of college, I’m loving that. Can I be a student forever? Like, do I have to go to the real world? Is my junior year right.
00:18:05:43 – 00:18:24:43
Robert Eskra
That was it. Yeah. The the the also the fun thing about, first year law school too, is that you actually can’t work. You’re not allowed to, they won’t let you. If you’re going to law school full time your first year, they won’t allow you to work at all, period. You have to, like, sign an agreement with the school that you that you’re not going to.
00:18:24:48 – 00:18:26:04
Agent Palmer
Well, hold on, hold on.
00:18:26:09 – 00:18:47:35
Robert Eskra
Like, yeah at all. Like, yeah. Like you can’t have a part time job because the idea is, is that everything needs to be. And honestly your first, if you’re going for a full time first year law school, like, yeah, you need that time to be because I didn’t I never bought books or took notes in college. I learned very quickly.
00:18:47:35 – 00:19:09:05
Robert Eskra
Law school was very different. And like, so you spend your time reading, have you actually, I mean, have you ever seen the movie The Paper Chase? Yeah. All right. The beginning of the movie. What? What’s his face walks in, right? He opens the book. He just points at a kid and says, brief this case. Yeah, that’s legit. Like my wife, who I met in law school, which is funny.
00:19:09:10 – 00:19:20:40
Robert Eskra
She was in a class that that happened like one of the one of their professors walked in. Big fan of the out a girl. Clearly I, I wasn’t a huge fan of the movie.
00:19:20:40 – 00:19:21:43
Agent Palmer
No, but this professor.
00:19:21:56 – 00:19:44:57
Robert Eskra
But this professor was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, she called on a girl and the girl, I guess there was an issue and that, like the the instructions for the first class weren’t that clear about what pages to read. And this girl realized that she had read the wrong pages and had admitted that, got her ass torn into. And she, like, ran out of the room like, like nearly in tears.
00:19:45:02 – 00:20:12:28
Robert Eskra
And so that’s like, that was like my wife’s introduction to law school. My introduction was a little bit better because we had a professor who he was a phenomenal guy. His name was, his name was John. Turn back. And I still, like he’s still one of my favorite teachers in the world. I actually when, like, when we do end up talking about my transition, I actually had a I called him with, like, I’m having a crisis and he he kind of like like what?
00:20:12:29 – 00:20:35:27
Robert Eskra
Talk to me through it, which was great. But he was a much nicer person. And he started it. He started class off like explaining what was to be expected, which was a, I think a much kinder way to, you know, get people into because it was you needed to, once you got into it, class would start and it was it’s taught Socratic.
00:20:35:27 – 00:20:54:26
Robert Eskra
So meaning like you, the students really do most of the talking. The teacher just acts as a proctor. Right. And so it’s like you have to read these cases before class and when it comes in, it’s like, okay, explain to me the facts, like what are the relevant facts? And so one kid would have to do that.
00:20:54:30 – 00:21:12:13
Robert Eskra
All right. You what did the what did the court decide this. What was the rule. Right. And then once all of that was established, then a conversation would be had about why that rule was made. And how does it apply to the facts. And if there was any precedent that they decided on, like, how does that play in?
00:21:12:26 – 00:21:38:48
Robert Eskra
Are there any little alterations to the rule that were made in subsequent cases? Right. And so the thing is, is about law school is it doesn’t teach you law, right? What it teaches you is how to think differently about problems and how to like when you approach it, a fact pattern. How do you determine a solution to the, to the problem?
00:21:38:48 – 00:21:57:19
Robert Eskra
Right. And before I mentioned that I had already argued like a lawyer to a certain degree. Yeah, without realizing it. But now it was throughout this first year that I realized, like that was already my natural kind of way of thinking about things. This just further refined it, and I was good at it.
00:21:57:34 – 00:22:03:04
Agent Palmer
So my question enjoyable. Yeah. For, for for fellow students in that first year.
00:22:03:08 – 00:22:03:56
Robert Eskra
Yes.
00:22:04:00 – 00:22:26:24
Agent Palmer
Were you lucky in that you were already naturally arguing that way. Did like do you do you find people that were just, I can’t talk like this or I don’t know how to sit? And I wonder too, is it a I can’t think like this or like they teaching you to think? Or is it the arguing of like, I don’t know how to.
00:22:26:26 – 00:22:45:27
Robert Eskra
It’s so it’s the difference is, is because you come straight from college and though you succeed in college primarily through memorizing whatever was taught and regurgitating it back to your professors, either through multiple choice exams or essays, right? That’s all.
00:22:45:28 – 00:22:47:20
Agent Palmer
Unless high school for the most.
00:22:47:25 – 00:23:15:45
Robert Eskra
High school college, right? So for your first 16 years, that’s learning in law school. That’s not learning anymore. There’s nothing to memorize. Memorizing the rule only gets you partway there. You then need to understand why the rule was established, and then how to apply that rule to different fact patterns. Okay. And so it’s it ends up becoming and this this is actually an example I use in class currently to teach the way that lawyers think.
00:23:15:45 – 00:23:41:32
Robert Eskra
Right. And it’s it comes from a video. Stephen Colbert interviewed Ruth Bader Ginsburg. May she rest in peace. And he asked her to settle the age old debate of whether or not a hotdog is a sandwich. Okay. And as opposed to like, a lesser person immediately trying to make an argument for one way or the other, the first thing RBG does is, she says, what is the definition of a sandwich?
00:23:41:37 – 00:23:46:58
Robert Eskra
And I’ll ask you the same thing. What is the how would you define a sandwich?
00:23:47:03 – 00:23:56:42
Agent Palmer
I, I, I, see, I, I’m one of those people that’s like, well, it’s, it’s definitely bread based.
00:23:56:47 – 00:23:57:57
Robert Eskra
Okay. So there has to be bread.
00:23:57:57 – 00:24:14:48
Agent Palmer
It has to be bread involved. I and I think for the most part, you need bread on top and bottom, because otherwise an open faced sandwich would still be just a sandwich. Like, you wouldn’t have to declare that if it’s open faced.
00:24:14:53 – 00:24:15:24
Robert Eskra
Fair enough.
00:24:15:26 – 00:24:40:09
Agent Palmer
All right. But to me, to skip to the end for a second, because this has been a thing in a different friend group of mine. Okay, I agree with a friend of a friend who said, and I quote, A hotdog is an American taco. Like to me that is that that to me that’s where you go instead of it’s a sandwich.
00:24:40:09 – 00:24:47:04
Robert Eskra
It’s a sandwich. But see now again, this is this is skipping over a crucial step in the process. You’re jumping from A to G.
00:24:47:04 – 00:24:48:54
Agent Palmer
Yes, yes, yes I do that a lot by the way.
00:24:48:54 – 00:25:08:01
Robert Eskra
And that’s fine. That’s fine. That’s again how most people go. And that’s that’s perfectly but the like to define a sandwich. Right okay. Bread base. That’s one. That’s one element. There needs to be bread. There needs to be bread on two sides of a filling. Right now you define top and bottom. But some could say that it has to be on two sides of the filling.
00:25:08:01 – 00:25:08:45
Agent Palmer
Yes.
00:25:08:50 – 00:25:17:39
Robert Eskra
Does that bread have to be stuck? Do the two slides that contain the filling have to be completely separated from each other, or can they touch one side?
00:25:17:40 – 00:25:18:24
Agent Palmer
They can definitely.
00:25:18:24 – 00:25:21:40
Robert Eskra
Touch because a hoagie can be a sandwich, right?
00:25:21:40 – 00:25:32:15
Agent Palmer
Or a sub or a sub. Well, pedantically there’s a part of me that goes if you are making a quote unquote cheese sandwich.
00:25:32:20 – 00:25:33:09
Speaker 3
00:25:33:14 – 00:25:38:25
Agent Palmer
And the cheese is smaller than the bread and.
00:25:38:25 – 00:25:38:32
Robert Eskra
The.
00:25:38:43 – 00:25:41:39
Agent Palmer
Bread will connect at some point at the end.
00:25:41:50 – 00:26:07:36
Robert Eskra
That’s another great example of how an exception to the rule. Right. Of the two slices of bread. Because by that definition then. Right, it’s, it’s meat. It’s some sort of filling contained by bread on two sides. The bread can be touching. Doesn’t have to be doesn’t have to be completely separated. Yes. By that definition, hotdog is a sandwich.
00:26:07:36 – 00:26:22:53
Robert Eskra
Yes. Right. Another way to think about it. This was an example that I used. I remember before law school. And when somebody told me, you do already, you think you already argue like a lawyer was if or if you were to ask me, what did I have for breakfast?
00:26:23:04 – 00:26:24:59
Agent Palmer
What did you have for breakfast this morning?
00:26:25:03 – 00:26:32:36
Robert Eskra
I would have to argue. How would you define breakfast? Is breakfast the first meal of the day or is it the morning meal?
00:26:32:36 – 00:26:36:01
Agent Palmer
I would argue that it’s the first meal of the day.
00:26:36:01 – 00:26:39:45
Robert Eskra
If it’s the first meal of the day. I had,
00:26:39:49 – 00:26:53:24
Agent Palmer
A although I can’t argue that because I contradict myself all the time because I’m like, hey, do you want a breakfast for dinner? Which means you can’t, you can’t have breakfast for dinner. So unless you planning on skipping every meal.
00:26:53:24 – 00:27:07:49
Robert Eskra
So then then that would be. Or if breakfast for dinner indicates that breakfast is a but a specific category of foods. Yes. Right. Because I if by the definition of first meal of the day, I had, Popeye’s chicken sandwich for breakfast.
00:27:07:49 – 00:27:09:43
Agent Palmer
I had a cheesesteak.
00:27:09:48 – 00:27:24:52
Robert Eskra
Yeah. Right. When really we would also consider that lunch though, because lunch is midday meal. Yeah. And if lunch is midday meal and dinner is late day meal, then breakfast isn’t the first meal of the day. It’s morning meal. Yeah. So I didn’t have breakfast today, depending upon the definition I.
00:27:24:52 – 00:27:47:27
Agent Palmer
Feel like also though. But I mean, I guess it depends on how like where you want to cite your sources. Breakfast is definitely the first meal of the day in Hobbit land, because if you don’t have if you don’t have breakfast, you can’t have second breakfast and elevenses because clearly you have three meals before you get to lunch.
00:27:47:31 – 00:28:19:41
Robert Eskra
And this is why this is exactly why you’ve you’ve stumbled upon why lawyers favorite answer is it depends. Because you’re right. There are different rules and different jurisdictions. Write the rule for breakfast. And our world is different from the rule for breakfast. Two habits which is different from the rule two breakfast in the land of men, right there is breakfast is defined differently, and thus breakfast has to be, you know, is determined differently in the in the US.
00:28:19:41 – 00:28:28:53
Robert Eskra
Right. Pennsylvania law is slightly different from Jersey law, is slightly different from New York law, which is why you have to take three separate bar exams to practice in those three different states.
00:28:28:53 – 00:28:51:45
Agent Palmer
So so I want to I’m going to skip ahead a moment. Right. Because we’re having fun with this little exercise. But you’ve kind of buried the lead a little bit. And that we know that this fun banter we’re having right here, which we see in the courtroom on television, is clearly not what lawyering is all about.
00:28:51:49 – 00:29:11:23
Robert Eskra
It isn’t. That’s the problem. This is the fun stuff, right? I was in mock trial in high school. I was sold a false bill of goods. So. Right you have you have, like, conned me into this profession. That is not what you like. What? What everybody believe. Because in law school, this is the conversations you have about everything, right?
00:29:11:23 – 00:29:22:05
Robert Eskra
This is how you talk. And it’s fun and it’s enjoyable. The only time that you hate your life in law school is during exams, because you only get one exam a semester, and it’s always at the end and it’s cumulative completely.
00:29:22:12 – 00:29:22:41
Agent Palmer
Oh, okay.
00:29:22:46 – 00:29:30:39
Robert Eskra
So every semester you have five exams all within two weeks of each other. And it’s everything you’ve learned that semester is test it all at once.
00:29:30:39 – 00:29:37:55
Agent Palmer
So so so this is my question on that okay. Yeah I don’t know. Have you ever seen the movie Real Genius.
00:29:38:00 – 00:29:38:57
Robert Eskra
Years and years and years.
00:29:39:02 – 00:30:02:33
Agent Palmer
There’s that scene in Real Genius where they’re doing the finals week study, and the guy is just reading the book, and then all of a sudden he looks up and just starts screaming loudly. And then he looks around while screaming, and then just gets up and runs out of the room, and everybody else is like, oh, a seat at the table.
00:30:02:38 – 00:30:03:35
Agent Palmer
Who’s going to take it?
00:30:03:39 – 00:30:06:46
Robert Eskra
Yeah.
00:30:06:51 – 00:30:07:22
Speaker 3
00:30:07:27 – 00:30:25:09
Robert Eskra
That’s it’s funny because in laws during the exams, you take them in like these big where? Like there was a big amphitheater that we would take the exams in. And this is how the bar exam was, too. It’s it’s infuriating. It’s basically like you’re all sitting there, quiet. Kind of like getting in your own sort of zone.
00:30:25:14 – 00:30:57:20
Robert Eskra
And some people would have to put earplugs in. Right. So I was I never minded the noise of typing. Okay. And so it’s a room full of typing. However, there would be people who would get upset at like too much noise or like a. And I remember distinctly there was an exam where I’m sitting there typing and like the white noise of the of the clacking of all of these little fingers typing away at their answers, going all at once and then I start hearing this.
00:30:57:25 – 00:31:17:55
Robert Eskra
That, like, cut across everything. And I was. And it like it, it cut me out of my zone. And I started looking around and I couldn’t find it. And I realized the girl who was sitting next to me had a tennis bracelet on and it was scratched. And she would, as she like, reach, just hit the spacebar. It would like rub on on her laptop.
00:31:18:00 – 00:31:36:40
Robert Eskra
And once I identified it, I was fine. I could tune it out, but it took me like 2 or 3 minutes to identify what that sound was, and it took me out. So it’s not far off. Okay, that’s what I’m saying. But. So those exams suck. But the the environment of law schools is a blast. I had a blast at law school.
00:31:36:40 – 00:31:56:52
Robert Eskra
I really did. Every Tuesday we would go out, we would go out and play shuffleboard. Every Thursday night, we’d go out and get ham bound, Friday night, walk in the class like hungover is shit. But it was Friday, and the professors kind of knew a little bit. And then the weekends were kind of your own. And then Sunday night you’d get back into reading and prepping for, like, Monday’s court class.
00:31:56:52 – 00:32:10:11
Robert Eskra
Right. And it was that for three years. And it was. And the first year is the hardest. And then it gets easier and then it gets easier. And by the third year, it’s just a giant party because, you know, you know how to do it now, right? You know where to read. You don’t even need to read an entire case.
00:32:10:11 – 00:32:16:03
Robert Eskra
You just know where to look and you can identify facts, you know, rule conclusion done.
00:32:16:11 – 00:32:18:31
Agent Palmer
So what’s the retention rate? Right.
00:32:18:31 – 00:32:19:39
Robert Eskra
A lot in law school.
00:32:19:39 – 00:32:22:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Because it can’t be. It can’t be good.
00:32:22:21 – 00:32:43:36
Robert Eskra
No. So again my my law school kicked out the bottom third. And at the end of your first year they just booted you. Okay. Because it’s you’re not graded individually. You’re graded against each other. So it’s about what they. Yes. And the way they do it is, is that they would go through. And again John turned back, explained his process of grading to me.
00:32:43:41 – 00:33:01:49
Robert Eskra
And the way he would do it is he would have a point system, because the way the exams are, they’re all essay. And so it’s a fact pattern. And there’s one question, usually one question with multiple parts, but it’s basically like, you know, this person’s suing for this. What what are the defenses what at spot or some of them would just be spot all the issues.
00:33:01:58 – 00:33:29:04
Robert Eskra
Yeah. And those were the worst. But like also provided you the most potential for points. And so you would go through and and he he had a like thing of basically a checklist of things that like people could mention. And for everything that they mentioned, he would mark and then just count up the checks and, whoever got the most got the A, and then you just go down the line and distribute them among the bell curve.
00:33:29:09 – 00:33:49:52
Robert Eskra
And so, like, you could get really lucky and just be with a bunch of stupid people and get a really good, really good grade in law school. Or you could get screwed and be with a bunch of really smart people. Yeah, I’m still not sure where it because I met some, like really bright people and I ended up I ended up graduating cum laude, by the skin of my teeth.
00:33:49:57 – 00:33:55:24
Robert Eskra
Just like I said, I was good at it, but, like, not as good as some kids. Some kids were just. They blew me out of the water.
00:33:55:28 – 00:33:58:15
Agent Palmer
So what awaits you after law school?
00:33:58:15 – 00:34:00:02
Robert Eskra
Because the bar exam.
00:34:00:07 – 00:34:02:13
Agent Palmer
Okay. Oh, well, let’s this.
00:34:02:13 – 00:34:19:46
Robert Eskra
No, this is this is actually relevant. Okay. To to my transition. Okay. Because you get out of law school and then you get like, you graduate and you get maybe a week to celebrate because then you immediately have to start studying for the bar.
00:34:19:55 – 00:34:21:55
Agent Palmer
Now, how long do you study.
00:34:21:59 – 00:34:24:27
Robert Eskra
To do you. It is up to you.
00:34:24:29 – 00:34:26:55
Agent Palmer
Because you could you could take five months if you want.
00:34:27:00 – 00:34:37:18
Robert Eskra
You can. But the bar exam is out of date. Certain. Okay. It’s always in a I believe it’s always in July, late July or something like that. And then there’s one in February as well.
00:34:37:18 – 00:34:39:08
Agent Palmer
So if you want to take the first one.
00:34:39:08 – 00:34:55:55
Robert Eskra
Yes, you need to, you get a week and then you got to go okay. And there are the bar prep courses which is highly suggested to be taken start basically a week after law school and basically you just go right back to school. So like Weidner hosted bar prep courses. Yeah. So we would just stay we just stayed at school.
00:34:55:55 – 00:35:17:32
Robert Eskra
And basically when it started going back to class again and studying for like studying for law school exams, taught you how to write the bar exam but did not teach you the information. That’s, the bar exam. All right. The what? The information that’s going to be on the bar exam, because law school teaches you generally how to think like a lawyer using common law.
00:35:17:37 – 00:35:44:28
Robert Eskra
Common law isn’t used by Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania has its own statutes, and the bar exam teaches you those statutes. So you have two and a half months to learn 11 different areas of law and all of the relevant stuff that could potentially be taught and asked on the bar exam. And the bar exam is a two day exam. First day is six hours of essay, the second day is six hours of multiple choice.
00:35:44:28 – 00:35:58:39
Agent Palmer
Now, do you usually figure out your, I don’t know, area of expertise when you’re covering these 11 areas for the bar exam? Or do you kind of have an idea of your area of expertise from law school?
00:35:58:53 – 00:36:20:37
Robert Eskra
So I mean, they allow you to explore specialties in at least that. Why would you do it? You don’t mind. You don’t major in anything in law school. You just go and get a JD. Yeah, but you can, like, I got a certificate in advocacy, okay? Which is essentially like trial law. Yeah. So I learned, like, courtroom techniques and stuff like that, right?
00:36:20:37 – 00:36:46:12
Robert Eskra
I took classes specifically tailored to that. The, bar exam is like you and generally like, you take a couple classes and there are areas that interest other like I was interested in criminal law. I always found it fascinating. And common law was fascinating. Constitutional law. Excuse me, but like, property law never really found fascinating. Even though John Dirtbag, my favorite teacher, that’s what he taught, right?
00:36:46:12 – 00:37:05:35
Robert Eskra
I actually got the best grade in environmental law. But it wasn’t because I found it interesting. It’s because it was a code course. Meaning basically you were allowed to have the code book with you on the test. And I was really good at tabbing and highlighting, so, so I knew where to file, where to find the the relevant statutes.
00:37:05:39 – 00:37:13:18
Robert Eskra
The bar exam is just basically you learn all you can to regurgitate it over those two days and then you forget everything.
00:37:13:20 – 00:37:20:21
Agent Palmer
Now what? What’s the process of like you’re done with the bar exam. When do you know?
00:37:20:26 – 00:37:24:50
Robert Eskra
So the bar exam was taken in July, and we found out in November.
00:37:24:57 – 00:37:42:14
Agent Palmer
Okay. So what is going through your brain from July through November where it’s like, well my like because because to me, if you screw this up, you can’t take the November 1st because it’s too late.
00:37:42:19 – 00:37:44:59
Robert Eskra
So the fed the February 1st is the next one. You can take.
00:37:44:59 – 00:37:45:31
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Yeah.
00:37:45:35 – 00:38:03:50
Robert Eskra
So and it’s still but it’s like it’s $250 a pop to take. And it starts like about halfway through studying for the bar. Like what? What the hell did we do? Like, why are we, like, this is awful. This is legitimately terrible painful thing to to to have to go through.
00:38:03:51 – 00:38:06:25
Agent Palmer
But what do you do. Like do you take a vacation like.
00:38:06:30 – 00:38:15:35
Robert Eskra
Well, yeah. So you for it like my wife and I who we were, we were together there for to two and a half years that at that point, we went on vacation for a week.
00:38:15:40 – 00:38:20:21
Agent Palmer
And forgot about it. But then you come back and you still have months before, you know.
00:38:20:26 – 00:38:43:38
Robert Eskra
Yeah. So you just bury yourself in whatever you’re doing. I was working at a country club at the time, okay? As a as waitstaff. My wife went back to she would she before law school. She was a paralegal. So she went back to being a paralegal. Okay. And you just kind of, like, forget about it until that date, because, you know, they have the date published web dates, and it’s like November x.
00:38:43:50 – 00:39:08:00
Robert Eskra
Yeah, whatever that date is. So, you know, it’s coming. Okay. I think it was November 11th. And then that day happens. Yeah. And scores aren’t released until about 230 in the afternoon. So you you just have to agonize all day waiting. And it’s the work because again you’re going through like if I that was the worst experience I’ve ever I would never wish the bar exam on my worst enemy.
00:39:08:00 – 00:39:12:11
Agent Palmer
It’s awful. So at this point you’re thinking, I’m. I just don’t want to do that again.
00:39:12:11 – 00:39:32:40
Robert Eskra
Yeah, I hope I passed. Yes, I can be that. That’s part of the crisis is that if I didn’t pass. Like what? Like I just spent however many. I’m. I’m to. I’m $250,000 in debt now. Yeah. And for what. To a JD is great. But like it doesn’t really do much for you. Yeah, right. In the moment you’re thinking that.
00:39:32:40 – 00:39:52:05
Robert Eskra
But really, a JD is does do quite a bit for you. But anyways, I started like, what? What if I’m not a lawyer? Like what? What can I do? Where do I go from now? Or do I take it again? Do I grit my teeth and try and do it again? There are people I’ve known who’ve taken it three times before they passed it.
00:39:52:10 – 00:40:13:51
Robert Eskra
Judges who have taken it three times before they passed it. Right. So. But then you and 230 hits and you open, you’re like, you’re sitting at your computer and you’re just hitting refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh, refresh to like, try to get the page refresh. And then all it does is publish names. And you just have to hope your name is in that list.
00:40:13:56 – 00:40:21:15
Robert Eskra
And so like you start frantically looking for your name. And luckily mine was there and so was my wife’s. Right. Okay.
00:40:21:20 – 00:40:24:54
Agent Palmer
All right, so here’s the question. You see your name? Big sigh relief.
00:40:24:54 – 00:40:27:31
Robert Eskra
Oh, yeah. It’s great. Jobs.
00:40:27:43 – 00:40:33:17
Agent Palmer
Is that is that really the way it’s like he’s like, okay, now I can, who who wants me?
00:40:33:17 – 00:41:00:56
Robert Eskra
So I had I actually already started applying for jobs and I had done really well at with an interview with a small firm up near Hazleton in a small little town called drum’s P.A. it was basically just the one guy. And he had he had a young attorney working with him who then moved, who had to move with his family somewhere else for another, you know, his wife had gotten a position somewhere, so he just needed to leave, would go with her.
00:41:01:01 – 00:41:16:00
Robert Eskra
And he had an of counsel, like older attorney who did like a state law. And he just needed, like and he we interviewed and he told me like he does civil law, but like and I told him my interest is in kind of like criminal defense lawyer. And he’s like, well, if you come in me, I can help you.
00:41:16:00 – 00:41:33:30
Robert Eskra
We can we can get into some of that. And I was like, this is going to be great, right? And the interview went really well. And he basically essentially left the interview. He’s like, let me know if you pass. And that was that was essentially the end of the interview. Right. And then like I pass and so like I spend the night celebrating.
00:41:33:44 – 00:41:51:02
Robert Eskra
Right. And then the next day I kind of get up and I shoot an email to him. And it was like that afternoon that I got like my official offer. And he’s like, you know, I’d like to have whatever, and here’s your salary. And that was like, it’s like, holy shit. I’m like legitimately a lawyer. Good. Like, because you could start practicing.
00:41:51:02 – 00:42:12:14
Robert Eskra
And I got, you know, I, was, you get admitted to the bar through, like, the ceremony at both the federal and, county courthouses where attorney friends of yours have to make a motion to the court to admit you to the bar. And it’s basically they like, you know, the this person is they they describe, like, all of your good qualities.
00:42:12:19 – 00:42:25:06
Robert Eskra
And they say at this point, I would move that the court, admit whomever to the federal bar of the Pennsylvania United States, Middle District of P.A., so whatever it that the bar’s called.
00:42:25:15 – 00:42:26:05
Agent Palmer
Sure.
00:42:26:09 – 00:42:48:10
Robert Eskra
And, you know, motion granted. And you’re a lawyer officially, right. You get your card, there’s a party. It’s like the honeymoon then happens. Right? And then I start, go to work and at first, again, it’s kind of like, okay, growing pains. Right? It’s it’s tiring. You’re going into the office. And my first assignment was essentially get familiar with all of these cases.
00:42:48:15 – 00:43:07:44
Robert Eskra
So it’s like there’s there’s a whole bunch of cases in your desk or like or here’s a list of cases I would like you to kind of familiarize yourself with them. And you do that. And I basically read those case files front to back to, to understand exactly what had happened in them, where they are now, what the facts were and all that work with the issues.
00:43:07:49 – 00:43:32:50
Robert Eskra
He had brought me in and a couple, like new client meetings. He had brought me to a couple of short little hearings that he had done and probably six months in. Yeah, because it was about first summer. I realized I wasn’t sleeping at night because I was driving an hour away every day to go to work, and I wasn’t in a courtroom.
00:43:33:01 – 00:43:53:57
Robert Eskra
I wasn’t, you know, doing the fun stuff. Yeah. Having the fun conversations my boss would like, would like himself in that office for eight hours a day, and I’d come in and I was actually the. My best friend of the office was was my sac was the secretary, a woman whose name was Diane. She was amazing. She was a great she was a great person.
00:43:54:02 – 00:44:17:10
Robert Eskra
And, like, we got along a lot, but, like, it was just this quiet office where I would go, and I would lock myself in my office, and I’d answer the phone call. I’d have the odd client meeting, but most of the time it was writing letters like to demand letters or writing briefs. Yeah, it’s not like there wasn’t every once in a while a fulfilling thing that I did.
00:44:17:12 – 00:44:46:07
Robert Eskra
Like there was, family. I remember specifically who, like I had done there was this medical malpractice case that had, been basically on hold for ten years, because a whole bunch of things that happened, people had died, journeys had changed and all that. And then there was my attorney was waiting on this specific document from, a manufacturer of machine that was alleged to have been the cause of a death of a family member.
00:44:46:11 – 00:44:46:52
Agent Palmer
Sure.
00:44:46:57 – 00:45:18:58
Robert Eskra
And I had finally got the manufacturer to send us the document. Like, I made the proper argument, filed the proper motion, argued it in front of the judge, and the judge granted it. And finally, like the manufacturers sent us all of the documents, we asked for it. And in it was like the thing that we needed. And so, like that family was finally like, it wasn’t until you came along like we had almost given up hope and you had like and so like there were fulfilling moments, but that was like 1 in 2 and a half years.
00:45:19:03 – 00:45:40:31
Robert Eskra
And so, like, I remember that first summer, my wife and I, she was my fiance at that point where sitting at my in the pool at my mom’s house, and I was just kind of like, is this all there is now? Like up until this, up until, like, there was always the next thing to look forward to, right?
00:45:40:31 – 00:45:59:28
Robert Eskra
Yeah. Like college and then law school and then all the bar exam and then trying to get a job. And then once you got the job, it was like, oh, this is just it. Yeah. And I had like that like crisis where it’s like, this is this all life. It’s like, this is what grown ups do. This sucks.
00:45:59:33 – 00:46:07:29
Robert Eskra
But like, I felt like I’m like, no, I put so much time and effort money into this. Like, I have to enjoy this and I just have to. But I wasn’t sleeping.
00:46:07:38 – 00:46:10:29
Agent Palmer
So the thing I would ask.
00:46:10:34 – 00:46:11:05
Robert Eskra
Yeah.
00:46:11:10 – 00:46:17:25
Agent Palmer
Before we get to transition, is if you had not made the decision to change careers.
00:46:17:30 – 00:46:17:49
Robert Eskra
00:46:18:00 – 00:46:33:05
Agent Palmer
Would the odd great success have been enough to sustain you? It wasn’t. But would you have been able to continue along with that one. Success is enough.
00:46:33:17 – 00:46:57:39
Robert Eskra
No, no I would not have because I would only sleep on the weekends. I would sleep Friday and Saturday night like a baby, like fucking stone dead. And then Sunday night I wouldn’t sleep at all. And Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night. I just wouldn’t sleep. It’s I sleep, sleep progressively basically because I was just more exhausted towards the end of the week.
00:46:57:39 – 00:47:00:19
Robert Eskra
I would sleep better, but it was restless sleep.
00:47:00:30 – 00:47:10:59
Agent Palmer
Now, how does this compare? Yeah, to other people who took the bar with you because they’re clearly going through different or similar circumstances.
00:47:10:59 – 00:47:34:00
Robert Eskra
So that’s part it’s there because like now, my wife had loved her job, okay. She was working, at a nonprofit doing family law, which she loved to do, doing like really good work helping people who were really in need, doing the fun stuff, being in court in the courtroom. That was the stuff I wanted to do. I was doing the stuff that she wanted to do.
00:47:34:00 – 00:47:55:24
Robert Eskra
She liked the writing of briefs and sending letters, and I hated that. I wanted to do what she was doing, but she was also really good. And she my wife is the better attorney. Absolutely, 100%. And she was doing what I wanted to do and she was happy with it. And then like opportunity after opportunity kept being thrown at her right.
00:47:55:24 – 00:48:26:24
Robert Eskra
And while I was while I was working at this tiny little law firm, like busting my ass and hating it, she had become, you know, a cabinet member, for the mayor. Wow. At the city of Scranton. Right. So she had become a cabinet member in that same two and a half year span, and I was still, like, just fucking felt like I was having to pay my dues.
00:48:26:24 – 00:48:46:43
Robert Eskra
Right? And so, yeah, I was not in a good place at all. Like, I knew my wife would say, like I was depressed back then. She knew that because I had my personality change, I was flat. I was not like my happy self. Right? I would I would be tired, I would go disappear and play video games at the end of the night, like and not in like a good way, not in a healthy way.
00:48:46:43 – 00:48:51:59
Agent Palmer
So the question then becomes You’re going to make a transition.
00:48:52:03 – 00:48:52:40
Robert Eskra
Yes.
00:48:52:44 – 00:49:21:38
Agent Palmer
And because of all the things you’ve already done and what you’ve been through. You can do anything. Like lit like I know that you know, you know maybe you don’t want to maybe professional sports passed you by. But you know within the professional world like you can be a teacher which is what you chose. But you could also, you know, do marketing or you know, there are so many other anything you can do.
00:49:21:43 – 00:49:35:15
Agent Palmer
So what is the process? I mean, cause I to me, right? Yes. I want to acknowledge this for the listener. Like I’m skipping over the I’m, I want to make a transition because that’s such a personal thing.
00:49:35:20 – 00:49:36:21
Robert Eskra
Yeah, but.
00:49:36:21 – 00:49:41:00
Agent Palmer
But you do decide you want to make a transition. How do you decide.
00:49:41:05 – 00:49:41:50
Robert Eskra
Where to go?
00:49:41:52 – 00:49:45:09
Agent Palmer
Where to go? Because it’s like the world is your oyster.
00:49:45:18 – 00:50:07:47
Robert Eskra
So the first thing I needed, I decided, is I needed to get out of there. Okay. And so it was it basically started with just finding any job on that, that I, that I had qualifications for that. Like enabled me to apply to okay. That and that I didn’t I hadn’t made the decision that I wanted to leave the practice of law, just that I needed to get out of that office.
00:50:07:47 – 00:50:24:09
Robert Eskra
Okay. All right. And even part of mine was like, okay, maybe I could do this, but I just as long as I didn’t need to commute an hour and a half every day, like two and back. So an hour and a half to two sometimes, and then like so, meaning I was leaving my house at 630 and not getting back till seven.
00:50:24:09 – 00:50:46:00
Robert Eskra
Sometimes I gotcha, and so maybe if I just moved closer. Yeah. So it was applying to other law firms applying to for you know, I applied for like directorial positions at like Montage Mountain, like because like I started researching what can you do with a JD or a law degree. And there was like websites and this should have been a red flag.
00:50:46:05 – 00:51:10:09
Robert Eskra
But there are plenty of websites. It’s like other things to do with a law degree. And it’s like there were there are lists of like most satisfying jobs to pay. And none of them had being an attorney. So it was, you know, it was like just applying to anything and everything. And finally, one of the interviews I got was for Lackawanna College, which is where where I teach now.
00:51:10:09 – 00:51:36:44
Robert Eskra
But it was for an associate dean position. And I remember, you know, I got the interview and I the night before the interview, I come down with some weird stomach bug, like up all night in the bathroom every 20 minutes, thrown up the next day, I was awful. Somehow I pulled it together for the half hour hour interview.
00:51:36:58 – 00:51:47:12
Robert Eskra
Yeah, like I drove to the school. I don’t know if it was adrenaline or whatever. Pulled it together, and then at the end it was like, by the way, I feel like shit.
00:51:47:17 – 00:52:13:02
Robert Eskra
But I interviewed, I thought the interview went really, really well. And because then the, the, the dean of students. So I would have been working under him if I had gotten the job, which I didn’t. Spoiler alert he walked me out of the building. He’s like, you know, like because in the interview I was like, you know, I, I would kind of like to teach if that’s a if that’s a thing that you guys do and they’re like, oh yeah, we, we absolutely allowed, you know, staff personnel to teach classes that are like it.
00:52:13:07 – 00:52:26:35
Robert Eskra
And so as he’s walking me out, he’s asking me about and he’s like, so would you really consider. And I was like, yeah, it’s like I think it would be a lot of fun. Like, I kind of taught a couple kids in law school. Like we kind of host it and we would teach each other and like, I think I’d be good at that.
00:52:26:35 – 00:52:41:58
Robert Eskra
And he’s like, well. And the interview went like really well, but I didn’t get the job right. Agonized for like weeks and weeks and weeks until I finally got, I finally there was an announcement that the job had been filled. It wasn’t even like a letter to me. It was like an email saying, like they went somewhere else.
00:52:41:58 – 00:53:00:25
Robert Eskra
So I was like, damn it. But my wife had told me, it’s like, why don’t you try to become a teacher? Them. And so I started looking for teaching job specifically at it, because that kind of like piqued my interest. And it was at this point that I called my professor from law school, okay, because I realized I was having that, like, crisis.
00:53:00:25 – 00:53:19:58
Robert Eskra
It’s like I want to leave the profession. But I had put all this money in and I remember he tell me, he said, you’re about two years out now, right? I said, yeah, and he’s like, that’s the time. He said, there usually comes this part about two years out, out of law school where, you know, you either decide you’re going to stay in it or you leave it.
00:53:20:02 – 00:53:43:29
Robert Eskra
And he said, a lot of people who leave it do become teachers. And so I was like, okay. And so I started applying for teaching jobs. And eventually Lackawanna was had a criminal justice job that opened up. I applied for it, got the interview, nailed the opening interview. There was then a second interview where you needed a teach a 20 minute class.
00:53:43:34 – 00:54:03:02
Robert Eskra
The day of that interview, I spent all day prepping the 20 minute lecture that I needed to give because they had called me that morning saying, oh, would you be able to come in at like 4:00 this afternoon and do this lecture on. And I believe it was the topic that I needed to talk on was, police brutality.
00:54:03:07 – 00:54:21:29
Robert Eskra
Okay. So I was like, absolutely sure. And so I spent, you know, all day prepping this 20 minute lecture PowerPoints and all. And I apparently not got all the part. And I was told by my boss later, it’s like, because I finished the thing and I said, oh, by the way, like, I just got the interview. I just got the call this morning and this was only about like six hours of prep time.
00:54:21:29 – 00:54:42:50
Robert Eskra
So I apologize for it. Apparently they were supposed to call me like a week earlier to give me a week to prep. Yeah. And they were floored that what I had presented, I had only prepped it a day because they had done several interviews with the requisite week time to prep, and they were apparently any good compared to mine.
00:54:42:55 – 00:54:56:17
Robert Eskra
Like, they they all looked at each other after that and they said he he’s it. And so that was a huge boost to my confidence as like there was like by the the what’s what is it where you like reinforce your biases.
00:54:56:22 – 00:54:57:55
Speaker 3
Like they.
00:54:58:02 – 00:55:19:05
Robert Eskra
They did that to me like oh yeah. This was the right decision. Afterwards when they told me that. But yeah, that was the transition. Was, was that because I had hated the job that I was in, realized I wanted to get out through the process of applying, kind of discovered that teaching is where I wanted to be. And then once I started teaching, I realized that this was my calling.
00:55:19:05 – 00:55:25:25
Robert Eskra
This was what I was supposed to be. And I don’t know why I took this long backwards route to get here.
00:55:25:30 – 00:56:00:45
Agent Palmer
Well, I, I will tell you, as someone who has been searching. For my next professional career, I am not convinced I know what I, where I’m going to end up. Which is one of the reasons that I’m trying so many different avenues to figure out what it is because you don’t. I honestly believe there are people and I have talked to them on this show, but I’ve also met them in real life that literally know what they’re going to do.
00:56:00:50 – 00:56:18:29
Agent Palmer
You know, I don’t think I was ever one of those people. I just do not think I was ever one of those people. And I will give you the example for you and me of why you and I are not those people. We didn’t figure it out in high school, and it took us a while to warm up in college.
00:56:18:31 – 00:56:19:37
Robert Eskra
So why did.
00:56:19:37 – 00:56:38:37
Agent Palmer
It take a while to warm up? It wasn’t just because the opportunities weren’t there. The opportunities were there all along. We didn’t take them. And then when we took them, we needed to experience them. We needed to figure it out. And then we figured it out. But we didn’t know what any of it fucking meant, which is the worst thing, right?
00:56:38:37 – 00:57:13:26
Agent Palmer
Like, I had all of this experience. I do have a professional career behind me. I spent nine years in one organization doing multiple things. I can do anything, but I still cannot process what any of that means for my future. Yet. Because I wasn’t gifted that singular focus. Like, I read these autobiographies and watch these documentaries about like, well, I really I just wanted to be in television, so I, I sacrificed everything because I knew I wanted to be in television, and I got in television and it was great.
00:57:13:30 – 00:57:29:13
Agent Palmer
And I envy that to an extent, because I would give anything to have that one singular thing I can throw everything into. But I’m interested in so much more, and I can do so much more than it’s like.
00:57:29:18 – 00:57:49:57
Robert Eskra
I don’t know, I think you and I are very similar in that even even like to in my hobbies, like I am, I don’t have one hobby, I have a thousand hobbies that I like do sporadically, yet it’s like one day I’ll do oh, I’ll, I’ll go out and do and become somewhat okay at archery. Now I’ll, I’ll start making beer.
00:57:50:02 – 00:58:10:41
Robert Eskra
Oh, I’m going to learn how to make bread and broth. And now we’re going to learn how to ferment. And I’m going to learn programing and I’m going to learn. And it’s like all of these like little things and you learn. And part of that, I think, is why the practice of law attracted me at first, because the saying goes, is that in order to be an attorney, you have to be a jack of all trades, right?
00:58:10:41 – 00:58:25:59
Robert Eskra
You have to know a little bit about everything. And then the phrase goes, is that, you know, the jack of all trades, which is kind of like colloquially anymore. No thought to be a bad thing. It’s not though. Oh, no.
00:58:25:59 – 00:58:43:25
Agent Palmer
Because it’s like, again, my favorite thing is sending my résumé to somebody I’m networking with. And I always get two responses from different people. Have two people tell me you’re all over the place, you need to focus, and the other half say, you’re so well-balanced, you’ll get hired tomorrow.
00:58:43:39 – 00:58:45:58
Robert Eskra
Well, yeah, that’s what being a well-rounded person is.
00:58:46:00 – 00:59:08:10
Agent Palmer
How can both of those things be true, though, right? Like, how can I get hired tomorrow if I pick a specialty or if I continue to be who I am as a well-rounded person? Like those two things don’t jive at all. But again, I look at what you say about hobbies and I go, well, yeah, like I play guitar, I play bass, I just picked up the drums again.
00:59:08:16 – 00:59:33:04
Agent Palmer
I enjoy my my writing and my reading and editing all of this stuff. And like, yeah, we’re we are all over this place. And what’s worse is and I think, I don’t mean to get like all soapboxes and like, oh, you’re blame a generation. But I feel like boomers specifically when hiring or when I’m networking with them.
00:59:33:08 – 00:59:33:47
Robert Eskra
00:59:33:51 – 00:59:59:00
Agent Palmer
And I talked a little bit about this on the blog recently about how like, they discount my passion projects because I’m not doing them for money, but I also feel like they don’t understand how things can be applicable because they aren’t there. So a lot of boomers and I don’t I don’t mean this, except I do a lot of hammers that are hiring are looking towards their retirement in a year or two or 3 or 5.
00:59:59:00 – 01:00:26:06
Agent Palmer
Right. So they’re not thinking about how what I can bring to the table is applicable next year because they’re not going to be there. So they don’t care. And I’m not saying they’ve checked out, but at a certain point I network with these people that could hire me, and I go, the reason that you’re not asking the right questions because either A you don’t know how or b if you did, none of these things would come to fruition while you were still there.
01:00:26:11 – 01:00:27:00
Speaker 3
01:00:27:09 – 01:00:46:57
Agent Palmer
You’re going to retire. You’re done. You’ve checked out. And so I have to be waiting for that next thing for that next wave to be able to be in charge of the budget so they can go, oh you can edit audio, can you edit video like because those things are, well they aren’t the same. They are applicable.
01:00:47:04 – 01:01:05:56
Agent Palmer
If you can do one, you can do the other. And if you can write you can write it, you know. And and so I have these talks with people. They don’t ask the right question. And I don’t mean to pick on them because they’re giving me of their time. And most of them have a little bit of good advice to share.
01:01:06:01 – 01:01:21:05
Agent Palmer
But I and I need to get better at this as a personal thing. Like, I just need to start taking control and just being like, this is what I can do and how it’s applicable to you. I need to do your work for you for this because clearly you’re not getting it. But, well, once.
01:01:21:05 – 01:01:42:39
Robert Eskra
Once they hit a certain age, I mean, and then again, this is this is stuff that made that my wife, had experience immediately after getting out of Los, not even out of law school, just one year in law school. Going back to her job as a paralegal. And her boss is trying to tell her how to do this, you know, asking her to do something right, to write a complaint or something like that.
01:01:42:44 – 01:02:04:09
Robert Eskra
And she realized that the form complaint that the guy had been using for years didn’t include a crucial area of law that we had just learned. Yeah, because he had been doing it the same way for 40 some fucking years and did didn’t hasn’t decided to try to update it. And so she’s like, you’ve never heard of tort of like negligence per se.
01:02:04:09 – 01:02:27:06
Robert Eskra
And he’s like, what’s that? And and so it’s like she had to include it in and it was what won them the case because it was blatantly there. Yeah. It’s there’s a thing about the, the fact, I mean, to go back to the, idiom. Right. Jack of all trades, master of not that’s where most people stop.
01:02:27:10 – 01:02:35:58
Robert Eskra
But there’s a second half to that phrase. Do you know what it is? No. Jack of all trades, master of none. Certainly better than a master of one.
01:02:36:03 – 01:02:38:18
Agent Palmer
I have heard that. Now. Now that you say that.
01:02:38:18 – 01:02:39:37
Robert Eskra
That brings.
01:02:39:42 – 01:02:42:53
Agent Palmer
It somewhere in the the echoes of my memory.
01:02:42:58 – 01:03:12:06
Robert Eskra
And so that’s that’s the full phrase, the phrase is, is that you knowing and being a well-rounded person and knowing a little bit about everything is much better than just having all of the knowledge of the of the and the world on one topic, because then you’re only good at one thing. I’m moderately okay at a lot of things, and so I can get by a little bit better in the real, and I can start to apply that knowledge.
01:03:12:20 – 01:03:32:43
Robert Eskra
Like you said, of one thing that sort of can apply to another, which and through teaching I’ve learned that like through there’s you can find analogies in anything. Yeah. And you know, I mentioned that like one of my errant hobbies is archery. There’s, the archery.
01:03:32:43 – 01:03:34:05
Agent Palmer
Arrows don’t go errant.
01:03:34:09 – 01:03:54:50
Robert Eskra
No, no, they don’t they don’t read because my neighbor’s house is by, what? One of the ideas is the archer. The archers mindset. And the archers mindset is that they’re like a lot of people in the world think like they either hit it or they miss, right? Well, an archer doesn’t hit or miss. There are consecutive rings.
01:03:54:50 – 01:04:09:15
Robert Eskra
And just because you didn’t get a ten didn’t mean you didn’t get a nine. Yeah, and a nine is still pretty fucking good. Yeah, it’s not binary. Nothing in this world is binary. There’s just shades of like, better to worse. And just because you didn’t hit it.
01:04:09:15 – 01:04:09:49
Agent Palmer
Perfect.
01:04:10:04 – 01:04:47:10
Robert Eskra
Doesn’t mean you didn’t still do a damn good job. And that’s still to be commended. Right? And that’s something that, like you take from something completely unrelated, but then could apply to a lot of areas of your life. And it’s being able to do that and having multiple hobbies and being it like, you know, I started learning video editing for for my videos and started learning streaming, which then applies to like improv and being able to the to think off the cuff and being able to to multitask, which then goes back into teaching and how to teach and to manage a classroom which feeds back into the streaming thing, which then how to entertain, how
01:04:47:10 – 01:05:10:52
Robert Eskra
to critically think, and then how to get students to engage with me. And all of it ends up feeding into itself. And because if if I was that type of person who just dove straight into teaching, I’d be one of those, like, hoity toity, like buttoned up professors who sat in his office all day and just read the same however many theses that existed and be regurgitating the same information.
01:05:10:52 – 01:05:41:50
Robert Eskra
And my students, when they give me my reviews at the end of each semester, consistently on that, on these reviews list about how, you know, I they feel as if I make learning fun because I make the and this is what they tell me, but it’s also something that I pride myself on that I make the information, you know, meaningful to them in the sense that I relate it to real life or things that they experience, and that can be through any number of ways.
01:05:41:55 – 01:05:57:03
Robert Eskra
But it’s like because as opposed to just learning something in the textbook, I’m like, all right, well, now let’s say, has it have any of you, you know, ever been pulled over and then, you know, you get the raise their hands and then I’m like, well, and then I’m able to incorporate whatever we just talked about into that scenario.
01:05:57:03 – 01:06:17:10
Robert Eskra
And then they’re like, oh. And then it clicks and they’ll never forget that because now the memory is meaningful. Because in order to learn you, in order to make it to to make a lasting memory, you need to connect it with something that’s meaningful to you. Right? It’s harder to memorize a random assortment of numbers than if I were to give you just a random assortment of numbers.
01:06:17:10 – 01:06:19:51
Robert Eskra
But if I said 8675309.
01:06:19:55 – 01:06:20:26
Agent Palmer
Jenny.
01:06:20:26 – 01:06:44:00
Robert Eskra
You’ll remember that that series of numbers, because that has meaning to you, right? If and the if I the way that I exemplify it. And when I teach psychology is I give a random string of numbers and then I separate them out into like 1776, eight, six, seven, five, 3 or 9 and like, 5 or 7, eight, which is like the area code from, from where I live.
01:06:44:05 – 01:07:04:39
Robert Eskra
And so like they’re like, oh yeah. Now remember those as opposed to remembering a series of 27 numbers, now you’re memorizing three series that you are that have a meaning to your 1776. Everybody knows eight, six, seven, eight, six, seven, five, three and nine isn’t necessarily working anymore. So I have to think of another one, but five seven.
01:07:04:44 – 01:07:26:22
Robert Eskra
It works, right? I’ll think of another number for whatever. But yeah, that’s it’s making meaningful memories. That’s really. And then at a broader if I didn’t go to law school, I wouldn’t have my current teaching philosophy, which I learned from one of my law school professors. And it was the first thing he said to us and the first thing he said to us, like, we come in, it’s orientation.
01:07:26:22 – 01:07:51:23
Robert Eskra
He gets up and he says, my job is to make myself obsolete. I’m like, you’re like, what the fuck? And he’s like, my job is not to teach you specific areas of law or whatever. My job is to make you able to go out there and teach yourself. And that’s how I view my job currently. Now, my job is to give these kids not to teach like they need to know certain things.
01:07:51:23 – 01:08:15:38
Robert Eskra
And yeah, but it’s the hopefully to inspired them with that urge to go out and learn more and to if they have a question about something in the world to how can they find the right answer, right? How to quit the the idea of like teaching critical thinking skills, which has been kind of like a fucking buzzword in education since we were little.
01:08:15:38 – 01:08:36:46
Robert Eskra
Yeah, but nobody’s ever been able to define it. That’s what it is. Critical thinking is the ability to be able to take a problem and figure it out practically where to find the right information, and then how to apply that information to the problem that you have. Because the thing is, is that in the real world, you’re not going to have a teacher there to to just tell you the answer.
01:08:36:51 – 01:08:56:02
Robert Eskra
Right? Because we’ve all learned as adults that like, oh, adults really don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. That’s the only difference between adults and like, kids is we got to pay taxes now, and people look to us like we know what we’re doing it. Everybody’s just fucking pretending. Like even people in government, they none of them know what they’re doing.
01:08:56:02 – 01:09:22:04
Robert Eskra
They’re all just stood there. Did the same as us. And really, they all still see themselves as those, you know, kids in high school who still don’t know what the fuck they’re doing, but now they’re in positions of power and have to pretend. And the people who pretend and start to believe their their own lies about them, knowing they’re the terrible people, but the people who are willing to admit, like, I don’t know, but I’m going to figure it out.
01:09:22:08 – 01:09:44:35
Robert Eskra
Those are the good ones. And hopefully what I do with my kids is I teach them that it’s okay to say, I don’t know, and to to try to find the problem and to ask for help while doing it. But all of that, that’s a long way of saying that. Like, I’ve been able to work what I learned in law school into my profession.
01:09:44:35 – 01:10:00:49
Robert Eskra
So even though it was kind of like the long way around, I’m glad I went this way because I don’t. I wouldn’t be the same teacher.
01:10:00:53 – 01:10:25:39
Agent Palmer
There’s not much more to add to this episode, but there are two things I would like to reiterate when Rob talks about the archer’s mindset that it’s not all or nothing, and that nothing is binary and it’s all shades of better or worse. He’s 100% correct in divisive times. It’s important to remember in the end, everything is shades of gray, and we would all be better to remember that more often.
01:10:25:44 – 01:10:52:54
Agent Palmer
Second, diversification is important. It’s not only a means of survival, but don’t put all your eggs in one basket. It can lead to a more fulfilling life. So of course Rob and I are always searching, but that is because we not only embrace but personify the saying Jack of all trades, master of none, certainly better than a master of one.
01:10:52:59 – 01:11:14:18
Agent Palmer
So with that in mind, pick up a new book, a new hobby, a new skill, or even revisit something from your past and then keep on. You’ll like some others you won’t, but just keep going. You never know where you’ll end up. And feel free to share with me the things you enjoy. Perhaps I will enjoy them too.
01:11:14:23 – 01:11:39:24
Agent Palmer
Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 58. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for the official business, the Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can tweet me at Agent Palmer and this show at The Palmer Files. You can find Rob on Twitch, where he streams, a professor plays and big brain streams on Twitch.tv slash FP Eskra.
01:11:39:35 – 01:12:01:25
Agent Palmer
That’s f p s k r a. Or you can visit his YouTube channel by going to tiny url.com/big brain lecture. Email can be sent to this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
01:12:01:29 – 01:12:08:38
Unknown
You.
01:12:08:43 – 01:12:14:56
Unknown
See?
01:12:15:00 – 01:12:38:18
Unknown
You.
01:12:38:23 – 01:12:42:12
Unknown
See?
01:12:42:17 – 01:12:44:30
Agent Palmer
All right. Rob, do you have one final question for me?
01:12:44:35 – 01:12:47:45
Robert Eskra
What happens when we die?
01:12:47:49 – 01:12:54:38
Agent Palmer
Okay, so I haven’t really been thinking about this, except that I.
01:12:54:38 – 01:12:57:34
Robert Eskra
Have.
01:12:57:39 – 01:13:27:52
Agent Palmer
So. So the way this works is, I feel like I tell this story all the time now, but I’ve been reading all of the books in my house, or I’m trying to read all the books in my house. And there are a lot of religious texts in my house, specifically Jewish texts in my house. And I have been avoiding them like the plague, because I know that when I go down that rabbit hole, I have to be in the right headspace.
01:13:27:57 – 01:14:06:06
Agent Palmer
I can’t just pick up one of those books, even if it’s not like a religious text. But I have a lot of books about Judaism. Maybe not novels per se, but definitely not like like the Tanakh. Like, here are the rules. Here’s the, you know, a lot more philosophy of religion books, I guess. And so I got to be in the right headspace and, and so but I know, especially when they’re written in the right way, then they talk about that and, and I and one of the things that I know already, and this is why I bring that up, is in Judaism, we don’t believe in.
01:14:06:06 – 01:14:29:13
Agent Palmer
And after this, is it, okay, this is what you get. And whether we’re right or we’re wrong is immaterial, because you can ask this question to 100 people and get 100 different answers. Or if you’re at the right kind of place, you might get one answer. Overall over again.
01:14:29:18 – 01:14:29:53
Robert Eskra
But.
01:14:29:58 – 01:14:45:12
Agent Palmer
But, but but all of that is to say that I, I, I to me, I kind of even though I’m not really I’m more of a cultural Jew than anything to me. I believe in that to an extent where this is it, this is all we get. However.
01:14:45:17 – 01:14:45:55
Robert Eskra
01:14:46:00 – 01:15:05:06
Agent Palmer
I have been thinking, based on a previous episode of this podcast about a book by Clive Barker called The Great and Secret Show, which is not only metaphysical, but it talks about what else there might be. Whether it’s an afterwards or the dream world. Okay.
01:15:05:11 – 01:15:05:51
Robert Eskra
01:15:05:56 – 01:15:28:52
Agent Palmer
And so because that’s been floating in my head, I’ve kind of been thinking about it to a certain extent and I, I mean, I feel like the best we can do. Not that I have to relate it to what you now do as a teacher, but the best we can do is leave behind better than we had.
01:15:28:57 – 01:15:29:25
Agent Palmer
Right?
01:15:29:27 – 01:15:31:11
Robert Eskra
So I like that.
01:15:31:11 – 01:15:59:11
Agent Palmer
If, for example, you in a practical sense are a teacher and you can leave behind knowledge for those students that you touch grade like even if you died tomorrow, the students that you have touched and taught to think, as opposed to just taught to answer, hopefully they will go on and make the world a better place and teach other people the same thing.
01:15:59:22 – 01:16:24:38
Agent Palmer
And to that extent, hopefully this podcast, by sharing your story and the others, will influence people in a way, since I don’t really have a career at the moment. Like hopefully at the very least this will put something good out into the world and sharing these stories and these sentiments and these rants and these arguments and discussions will make the world a better place for the people that listen to them.
01:16:24:43 – 01:16:37:06
Agent Palmer
So what happens when we die? I mean, it’s not really in my nature to figure it out. I get this right, I get this, this is what I have. Boy. Like, let’s make it work.
01:16:37:11 – 01:16:39:15
Robert Eskra
That’s nice, I like that.
–End Transcript–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).