Episode 128 features Joel Duggan, a podcaster, twitch streamer, animator, cartoonist, and content creator who wears more hats than that!
We discuss explaining what you do, commercials, influences, getting started, learning from others, passion, the desire to share, go behind the scenes on his podcasts and processes, and much more…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
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00:00:00:03 – 00:00:22:36
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. Born Standing Up celebrates the struggle of Steve Martin finding his genius. Palmer’s trek continues with Star Trek Insurrection, and if you haven’t subscribed to Swapna yet in some way, what are you waiting for? This is The Palmer Files episode 128 with Joel Duggan, a podcaster, Twitch streamer, animator, cartoonist, and content creator who wears even more hats than that.
00:00:22:41 – 00:01:06:11
Agent Palmer
We discuss explaining what you do commercials, influences getting started, learning from others, passion, the desire to share and go behind the scenes on his podcasts and processes. Are you ready? Let’s do the show!
00:01:06:15 – 00:01:25:29
Agent Palmer
Hello and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 128th episode is Joel Duggan. He’s co-host of one of the best Minecraft podcasts in the world, The Spawn Chunks. But that’s in addition to his own podcast, The Citadel Cafe, and his streaming on Twitch. But he’s also an animator and cartoonist.
00:01:25:33 – 00:01:47:40
Agent Palmer
He’s like me in that he’s always got something cooking. That’s just one of the reasons why he’s here. We discuss explaining what he does to other people. We worry with each other about copycatting and emulation. Talk about our podcasting influences, what we learned from the other creatives we met along the way, and even go behind the scenes of his processes on the Citadel Cafe and the spawn chunks.
00:01:47:55 – 00:02:10:18
Agent Palmer
All of that and a whole lot more is coming your way shortly. But before we get there, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact my guest, Joel and myself in the show notes. You can find Joel’s podcast, respectively at the Citadel Cafe, dot com or the Spawn chunks.com, or see all of his stuff with links to his socials, YouTube and Twitch at.
00:02:10:18 – 00:02:29:53
Agent Palmer
Joel Doug Incom that’s Joel dugan.com. Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:29:58 – 00:02:56:19
Agent Palmer
Joel, it’s it’s not an easy question, but it is an easy question. You’ve had you’ve worn many hats over the years, professionally. And right now you are a content creator. And I want to know, is being a content creator the hardest thing to explain? When people ask you what you do by comparison to like some of the other entertainment stuff you’ve done in the past.
00:02:56:24 – 00:03:32:54
Joel Duggan
I would say it used to be, okay, I don’t lead with content creator. I normally lead with podcaster because now when you say podcast, like most people, especially most people in like my contemporary age group, give or take ten years, either side will know what you mean. Okay. And I think that that helps a lot because of just the saturation of podcasts, the fact that so many famous people have podcasts now, you know, you look at like the Kelsey Brothers or, Conan O’Brien, like all these folks, they’ve got podcasts all over YouTube and everywhere.
00:03:33:07 – 00:03:55:30
Joel Duggan
And so when you say that people tend to know the content creation side, I feel like those are smaller circles for me. And again, you can say, well, I do content creation and people can say like, okay, well, I think I know what that means. And then when you start to dive into what kind of content that you make, and that’s where people start to get confused and that the eyes glaze over.
00:03:55:30 – 00:04:15:36
Joel Duggan
And that’s kind of what used to happen when I would be at, let’s say a wedding or a Christmas party or something like that. And I would talk about the other hats that I’ve wore, you know, working as a professional illustrator and artist, people would understand what that was. They knew what an artist was. They knew what a comic artist was.
00:04:15:51 – 00:04:26:15
Joel Duggan
But then the next question would be like, well, how do you make money with that? Like, how does that work? Like, I know what you do, but I don’t know how you do it and survive. And so those would always be the weird.
00:04:26:23 – 00:04:32:44
Agent Palmer
You don’t you still get that though, right? I mean, podcaster, the next question is, how do you make money with that? That’s.
00:04:32:49 – 00:04:58:58
Joel Duggan
Yep. Yeah, yeah. And for me it’s always been crowdfunding. So Patreon. Relying on the listeners. There was once upon a time I did a couple of short show stints that had advertising built in, but they weren’t my shows. I was helping somebody out with other shows. But most of the time it’s just been, hey, listeners, if you enjoy the show and you’d like to support us, then check out the Patreon.
00:04:58:58 – 00:05:17:59
Joel Duggan
And that’s the way that we’ve been able to do successful things with the sponge trunks and on my own part, you know, with this little cafe on the side like that. That hobby show has been with me for almost 13 years now. And again, it’s all crowdfunded and supported with the people that enjoy it. And I like it because I.
00:05:18:04 – 00:05:39:19
Joel Duggan
Nothing takes the wind out of my sails. Listening to a podcast, then stopping abruptly for an ad read. I respect that it has to happen on some of these larger shows and that the production, costs involved require advertising, but sometimes the choice of advertiser like, did you look around at all? Yeah, yeah. Why? You know.
00:05:39:19 – 00:06:11:14
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s it’s one of those things where for YouTube as well, I’m willing to sit through ads because I know a portion of that ad revenue goes back to the creator, and it’s I think you’re I’m, I’m 40. So for most of my life I’ve dealt with ad commercials, you know, like, even like, even Netflix now, like, that was kind of a, an adjustment period of like, oh, wait, there is no built in bathroom break to any of these shows.
00:06:11:14 – 00:06:37:54
Agent Palmer
Like, you have to actively pause. So I’m still in the mindset of like, well, there’ll be a break, right? Like they’ll they’ll just there’ll be a break. But some of the breaks they choose if, if it’s not like creator chosen are like, well that I wouldn’t have put a pause there. Like that’s just. Yeah. And so some of it’s content like what’s the ad and some of it’s also placement like you just cut him off mid-sentence.
00:06:37:58 – 00:07:02:23
Joel Duggan
Like what? What do you do. Yeah I find that Twitch is really bad for that. With the ads on streams that I watch where I maybe I’m not a subscriber and I do see ads because they don’t have turbo, to skip the ads. I do subscribe to YouTube premium, so I haven’t watched a YouTube ad in probably two years, and I checked that because I was also in the same mindset as someone that puts content on YouTube.
00:07:02:23 – 00:07:26:26
Joel Duggan
I wanted to support the creators that I was watching. So I checked with my co-host Johnny, who’s, on YouTube, it’s Pixel Reeves, and he said that, oh no, if you’ve got YouTube premium, then you still are supporting the creator. Like if there’s an ad playing premium is considered when they’re looking at the views, okay. You know, are going into that so that okay, well I feel great then because then I can I can do premium, avoid the ads and not have to worry about it.
00:07:26:31 – 00:07:49:52
Joel Duggan
And on Twitch though, I find that it’s, it’s often the same at, it’s like the same car ad or the same service ad for a cell phone or something that you see at the, the pre-roll whatever mid-roll ads I have going on like every 15 minutes, or however the creator has it set up and you’re watching the exact same run of three ads every single time.
00:07:50:06 – 00:08:08:47
Joel Duggan
And I like you, grew up with commercials on television. They weren’t great, but they were just a part of life. But at least they were different most of the time. Yeah. You know, like the ad block at the start of friends was different than the ad block in the middle of friends. And then at the end of friends, it was something else entirely, and at least and sometimes they were even funny.
00:08:08:52 – 00:08:15:05
Joel Duggan
But now it’s just it’s the same. The same ad over and over again on at least on some platforms now, do you.
00:08:15:09 – 00:08:31:52
Agent Palmer
You’re, you’re kind of on both sides of this Twitch YouTube podcast platform. You are creating, content and videos and podcasts and episodes, but you’re also consuming that stuff. Does the consuming end.
00:08:31:56 – 00:08:32:46
Joel Duggan
00:08:32:50 – 00:08:58:50
Agent Palmer
Take away maybe a little enjoyment or the does the creating end take away from the consuming end in that, like, oh, I want to know how that happened or like, that’s really good. I’m not going to like, you know, like maybe, maybe a little imposter syndrome, maybe not. But like, not everybody that watches TV makes TV. And you and I just went through a few minutes of talking about all these things that we consume, that we also make in a roundabout way.
00:08:58:55 – 00:09:20:15
Joel Duggan
I think for me, and this goes to something that my co-host Johnny says, when people ask like, how do I start making content? And his answer, which I think is a really good answer, is to make the kind of content that you would like to watch. Okay. And so I keep up on a few creators. Most of it just has to do with being an adult, being self-employed.
00:09:20:15 – 00:09:40:40
Joel Duggan
And what time do I have available? I don’t think making content has me watching less content. I just think busier weeks. I watch less content than I do on on weeks. Or it could also just be interests like, if I was, you know, like maybe it’s tax season and I happen to be watching a lot of videos about like, investment or, you know, advice on that realm.
00:09:40:40 – 00:10:01:22
Joel Duggan
And then all of a sudden the YouTube algorithm is just sending me a bunch of that stuff, and then I just don’t get to my subscription list that much that week. But then I catch up because it’s always there later on. I think that for me, I do still watch a lot of content as far as YouTube goes, I don’t watch a lot of Twitch streams, but that’s again, that’s a bigger block, like you’re looking at stopping into a stream if you want to be there for the whole thing.
00:10:01:22 – 00:10:16:02
Joel Duggan
For context, you might be looking at it for three hours, that kind of thing. Twitch streams are the kind of things that I’ll lurk in, like I’ll put them up on the TV when I’m cleaning the kitchen. You know, when I’m doing some chores around the house that kind of thing. Sometimes I’ll have them on my phone in my pocket, and then I’ll just.
00:10:16:02 – 00:10:40:00
Joel Duggan
I’ll open the phone if something interesting sounds like it’s happening. Okay. Because I don’t have to just watch it. It’s a great way to support some of my favorite streamers, too, just to kind of lurk in the background. But with podcasting, I don’t know if I’ve ever really stopped listening to podcasts. I feel like sometimes I end up avoiding the kind of podcasts that I make once I start making them.
00:10:40:00 – 00:11:07:24
Joel Duggan
It depends on that’s the thing. So, like, I don’t listen to a lot of Minecraft podcasts, although, like, there’s not that many out there now. And I also don’t listen to a lot of television and film critic podcasts. I’ll watch more reaction stuff on YouTube than I will listen to podcasts in that realm. I think I’m a little bit worried about Copycatting, and I used to listen to a lot of that stuff, but then I started one and like, okay, I’ve I’ve gathered the information.
00:11:07:24 – 00:11:39:19
Joel Duggan
I know the style of podcast, I know the style of presentation that I want to make, and then I go ahead and make my own version of that. But then I stop listening to the other ones. And so a lot of what I end up listening to is more like interview shows or slightly more educational stuff, where you got someone being interviewed that’s an expert in psychology, or they’re a medical doctor, or they’re a lawyer or just something that’s a little bit more interesting than, you know, the entertainment stuff that I tend to make, I tend to consume a little bit more serious content, but then make the lighter side of things.
00:11:39:24 – 00:12:03:39
Agent Palmer
One of my big influences was Marc Maron, and I’ve fallen behind because he puts out two shows a week, and when you spend a lot of time editing audio or recording audio, and same as like, I also want to put like a Twitch stream on in the background to support the creators I like, but you can’t always do that on the same device.
00:12:03:39 – 00:12:41:30
Agent Palmer
It’s like it gets it’s not as easy. And I started a thing where, I had a few close friends compare me in, like speech patterns to Maron, and I don’t hear it, necessarily, but it I now actively avoid listening to his show, within 24 hours of me recording just in, just to kind of keep a like a, like a, copycat barrier, even if it’s just cadence, because I try and talk like I would if you and I were, like, in a cafe.
00:12:41:30 – 00:13:08:24
Agent Palmer
Have a coffee. But if other people hear that and I don’t, the fear is always like, oh, no, maybe, maybe it’s true. I don’t know. I mean, I have consumed a lot of his 1214 hundred episodes, so it’s possible, but it’s also like, how can I keep this distance? So I’m not just another copycat. Yeah, it it’s not easy.
00:13:08:28 – 00:13:30:21
Joel Duggan
Yeah. The two shows from the two podcasters that I got into this business admiring, the morning stream with Scott Johnson. He also did the instance I think that shows going away now. And then Tom Merritt, who I’ve been following for a long, long time through several different shows that he’s been doing. But the the through point has always been like a daily tech news show.
00:13:30:21 – 00:13:56:23
Joel Duggan
So it’s not just two shows a week, like both of these guys were putting out content daily. Then I lost my commute and I started working from home full time, again in 2017, and I found it more and more difficult to keep up with the daily shows I still pop by when there’s a really important news day for tech, or if there’s other stuff like that, but I just, I just can’t keep up.
00:13:56:27 – 00:14:18:01
Joel Duggan
I tend to have, a slightly more, app, not episodic, but like standalone, like I prefer the standalone podcast where I’m not following the news for the week. I’m more like listening to an interview show where, like, it’s one and done. And if I like that interview, then I’ll listen to another one from that creator, that kind of thing.
00:14:18:06 – 00:14:36:48
Joel Duggan
But yeah, I, I know what you mean about emulation. I absolutely pulled a lot, shamelessly because, Tom Merritt is very talented. But the way that he structures the podcasts, the new shows, because of the news that we cover with Minecraft on the Sponge Trunks podcast. I mean, it’s it’s, often a snapshot that’s updated weekly.
00:14:36:57 – 00:14:56:06
Joel Duggan
So whenever we sit down, there’s a bunch of technical stuff to get through, and I, I stole the rundown style of, you know, Daily Tech news show and put that into the sponge chunks just because it works so well. I mean, someone that’s been in journalism for 20 plus years, like, don’t rock the boat. They’re they’re very good at what they do.
00:14:56:11 – 00:15:15:48
Joel Duggan
We we of course, have made it our own and worked it into our own styles and, and all that stuff. And it, it works for us on the sponge chunks, but, I think that, you know, when you’re looking at creating content, like, after you decide, okay, this is the kind of content that I watch, and this is the kind of content that I would like to make.
00:15:15:53 – 00:15:34:13
Joel Duggan
Then the next step would be in the same way that artists beg, borrow and steal as they’re learning, coming up and do the same thing, you know, like it’s not you can’t copyright the the way that a podcast is, is structured that’s just, you know, they’re either good or they’re bad or they work for you or they don’t and try out different things.
00:15:34:13 – 00:15:53:26
Joel Duggan
You know, like, I think that’s that’s a really good way to learn the things that you like. And I, I’ve had these scripts for, the Citadel Cafe and the Sponge Chunks now for 13 and six years respectively. And I stole the script from the Citadel Cafe, plumped it into the the sponge chunks and just rewrote it so it fit that show.
00:15:53:31 – 00:16:16:46
Joel Duggan
And over time, the Citadel Cafe podcast that kind of those intros, those plugs, they’ve been refined and refined over the years to be shorter, more concise, easier to roll off the tongue, the stuff that you write when you first start is way too wordy and hard to remember, and you know it. It’s nice when you can get into a groove and you know what works for you, and you’re only going to know that if you’ve got some, some.
00:16:16:46 – 00:16:17:30
Joel Duggan
Yeah, there’s a.
00:16:17:35 – 00:17:02:29
Agent Palmer
There’s a lot of trial and error. I also find that when you get into the habit of creating on a regular basis, it doesn’t matter the frequency but a regular basis. I find that my consumption falls off. I have a weekly blog and I have a bi weekly podcast, so six pieces of content are coming out from me every month, and the amount of things I could consume when it was just the four blog posts before the podcast existed, and the amount of things I can consume, whether it’s YouTube or podcasts or movies or television, adding just two episodes of the podcast, my consumption went like off a cliff.
00:17:02:34 – 00:17:26:52
Agent Palmer
Like because it’s just so hard to do both at the same time. Like you can maybe do some research and maybe some writing with something on in the background. Maybe. Depends on the kind of writer you are. You can’t edit a podcast with something on in the background, you can’t record it with something in the background. And so there’s just this level of like, there are so many people out there that I want to support, and the only way I can support all of them is to watch their stuff.
00:17:26:52 – 00:17:28:45
Agent Palmer
And I just don’t have that kind of time.
00:17:28:49 – 00:17:48:18
Joel Duggan
Yeah. That’s when I was working as an artist, more regularly. That was the thing. I could consume podcasts all day long. As long as I wasn’t writing a comic. Once the writing was done, it was just drawing. Like, I just I was executing things that didn’t require that part of my brain. Yeah, but if I was doing email or bookkeeping as part of the home business, I couldn’t listen to a podcast.
00:17:48:18 – 00:18:07:43
Joel Duggan
But every other time of day it was free. But then, like you said, once you get into recording stuff or editing stuff, it just you just there’s some things that you just can’t have going on. At the same time, I find to researching and doing like the news the week. Like I said, I’m putting together the notes for the sponge chunks or forming my thoughts for this little cafe.
00:18:07:43 – 00:18:12:19
Joel Duggan
I can’t listen to another show at the same time. Like, I really have to have my.
00:18:12:24 – 00:18:14:41
Agent Palmer
Music on though. Music I.
00:18:14:41 – 00:18:37:56
Joel Duggan
Could, yeah, I could put music on. I don’t I don’t listen to a lot of music in the background at, at in the Office. I just tend to go quickly through the silence. I don’t know why that is. I I’ll multitask in terms of like, maybe I’ll be texting a friend, like on the on the Mac and just be using the keyboard instead of my phone to type back and forth with my parents or somebody and kind of use that desk time to kind of catch up on things like that.
00:18:37:56 – 00:19:01:56
Joel Duggan
But most of the time I’m just kind of sitting here in silence. But I live in an apartment building where during the day a lot of the people here are at work. So it’s a really nice, quiet space. And so if I’m listening to music, it might be later on when I don’t like the music next door. Or like you can hear the TV murmuring from some other place, or, you know, there’s just noise in the backyard that you want to drown out or just, you know, whatever it happens to be.
00:19:01:56 – 00:19:09:46
Joel Duggan
It’s a little bit more lively, I guess, at night to have that kind of stuff going. But it’s just so peaceful here during the day. I sometimes I just don’t want to disturb it. It’s funny.
00:19:09:51 – 00:19:32:07
Agent Palmer
So I, I have to I you have two podcasts and you mentioned them both, but I want to talk about the sponge chunk specifically in terms of guests because you’ve had a lot of guests on that. You’ve talked to about process of, you know, what they do in Minecraft, but also what they do with videos or content or you know, what their processes are.
00:19:32:20 – 00:20:00:14
Agent Palmer
And I’ve on this show talked to a lot of different artists in various things, and it seems like all creatives are not the same, but we’re all built slightly different than everyone else. And so I was just curious, is is there anything that seems to be like a through line, no matter who you’re talking to, when you have those creatives on, that you’re like, this is just the thing.
00:20:00:14 – 00:20:22:21
Agent Palmer
Like, everybody just seems to, you know, this, like, the secret to happiness is to do it for yourself and not for the audience, or, you know, like, just because that’s the thing is, most of the people I talk to to 80%, I don’t want to say it’s 100, but 80% always say the real thing is, I wish I’d done it.
00:20:22:34 – 00:20:40:00
Agent Palmer
I’d started sooner. Like, that’s that’s like the one thing there’s, there’s the 20% that’s like, no, I started it at the right time. Everybody else is like, no, I, I wish I’d started sooner, but like, you get this opportunity and everybody you’ve talked to is so different. But there have to be through.
00:20:40:00 – 00:21:08:39
Joel Duggan
Like I think the through line from the creative people, if you’re talking specifically about content creation, then I think it’s a niche passion. And so for the sponge chunks, that’s usually Minecraft. And then quickly followed by the reason that they play the game is because they want to share the experience, share what they’re building with other people, and creating content is the quickest way to do that.
00:21:08:39 – 00:21:34:26
Joel Duggan
Okay. And what I find quickly comes into play with that is like, okay, I’m passionate about this game. I see other people sharing it. I feel like I’m creative or entertaining enough to do that, but then quickly after that comes, I don’t want to say perfectionism, but with the passion comes the desire to do it well and or right.
00:21:34:26 – 00:22:13:07
Joel Duggan
Air quotes. And I think that that it depends on the individual. I don’t see imposter syndrome as much. It’s more it’s more about I’m doing it, but I want to do it right. And so I’m taking the time like I’m there’s there’s a sacrifice happening in my life somewhere else, whether it’s time on another hobby, you know, whether it’s, finally getting one point where they can leave their day job and do it full time, whatever it is, there’s a there’s a thing where the content creators tend to want to do this very well, and that might only mean one video a week or one video every two weeks for, depending on the size
00:22:13:07 – 00:22:41:28
Joel Duggan
of the creator, right? And because people have family lives and, you know, if you’ve got three kids and like, you’re going to be pulled in many different directions in terms of, you know, your ability to do content creation and I feel like those those three lines that you’re talking about are definitely the, the, the passion and then the, the not the need, but like the desire to share that with people as part of the satisfaction.
00:22:41:28 – 00:23:01:07
Joel Duggan
Like it’s not just playing Minecraft, it’s that I play Minecraft and I get to share it with people and get feedback. And, it’s not people necessarily looking for pats on the back. It’s more like, no, no, this this was just a really cool thing that I experienced in the game. And then I built in the game. What did you experience and build in the game like?
00:23:01:11 – 00:23:18:42
Joel Duggan
Tell me in the comments or, you know, you end up making friends online and then you’ve got peers that you can share ideas and thoughts with. And happens quite a lot on, on multiplayer servers where you’ll have like minded creative people grouping together so that if something happens on the server, you may not be the only one witnessing it.
00:23:18:54 – 00:23:38:52
Joel Duggan
And then it’s like, you know, going to a concert with one of your best friends, you’re just like, oh, that was so cool. And then you can you can talk about it after. And I think that that that level of I think engagement is what really drives people to stick around, like the desire to share is what I think draws people to content creation.
00:23:38:52 – 00:23:56:36
Joel Duggan
But then the community that comes up around it, the friends that you make while you’re doing it. I think that’s what kind of keeps that wheel going once you’ve realized, oh yeah, okay, sharing is good. But then creating together and sharing the creative experience is is the next step.
00:23:56:51 – 00:24:20:17
Agent Palmer
Gotcha. So I, I want to take you back and keep you right here. Based on what you said as far as creating art, which I think a lot of it is, whether it’s a video about, oh, sure, Castle or what have you, or, you know, this podcast, I like to think there’s some artistic value in the editing.
00:24:20:17 – 00:24:49:24
Agent Palmer
I do, but you’ve been in the arts forever. It feels like I, you know, it looks like from the outside. Is are the things we just spoke about as far as, like, sharing this with other people and getting feedback and having a peer group within illustration or writing or animation or what have you. Is that what started it for you?
00:24:49:28 – 00:24:53:12
Agent Palmer
You know, little Joel, way back when, I.
00:24:53:17 – 00:25:09:00
Joel Duggan
I don’t know about little Joel. I mean, Little Joel found out that you could work as an animator, which is, you know, what people did at Disney. And that was like, I’m sold. That’s what I’m heading out to do. Like, that was the mission. I don’t think I was really old enough to understand community at that point because there was no internet.
00:25:09:04 – 00:25:39:22
Joel Duggan
I didn’t I didn’t have ready access to the internet until university, I don’t think. Okay. So when it comes to like, my young adult life, the, the art that I did after finishing art school with webcomics definitely was part driven by the the. Want to share the experience like you don’t necessarily some people might I did not necessarily draw webcomics to read them myself and chuckle.
00:25:39:22 – 00:25:59:35
Joel Duggan
Right. I wanted to share them and see if I could land those jokes, if I could get people to want to read it every week to to look forward to it. And sharing that online was the easiest way to do that. That led to listening to podcasts that had other artists creating webcomics on them. Okay, Webcomics weekly was a big show that I used to listen to.
00:25:59:40 – 00:26:26:35
Joel Duggan
And then listening to other comic artists talking about, like how they made it, how they did it, sharing the industry kind of tips and tricks and stuff like that. So that became really interesting and in a way to kind of take the what I grew up doing pretty solo, like art as a teenager, was very much kind of like alone in your room, drawing something cool you’d show your parents or maybe show a friend.
00:26:26:40 – 00:26:54:12
Joel Duggan
The next time you went over to their place to hang out. But, like, that was really it. There wasn’t posting it on Instagram, you know, in the mid 90s. So, I think that once the ability to share stuff with strangers became a lot easier, then it really opened up and just like I was saying, with content creation nowadays, it kind of really I got bit by that bug of like sharing the art with people and, and the commercial illustration side of things.
00:26:54:12 – 00:27:10:09
Joel Duggan
That was just the easiest way to make money. Webcomics did not bring in a lot of cash, but doing illustrations for logo design or someone’s t shirt, or in drawing a cartoon of someone’s family for a wedding or something like that. Like that was always more, more lucrative. As far as a business, do.
00:27:10:09 – 00:27:32:40
Agent Palmer
You still I mean, I know you still occasionally do like art streams, but do you still just, is there any part of you that goes back to. I’m. I’m alone in my room doing this for me? Do you still kind of like. Because there is, I have a friend who does journaling for himself. Right. And, I tried it, and it it wasn’t for me.
00:27:32:40 – 00:27:53:17
Agent Palmer
And it’s not because I’m a blogger, and I. I feel the need to share everything I write. It just wasn’t cathartic in any way. Like, I didn’t get anything out of it. But like, I also never really got into it. But if at one point in your life you were doing it for yourself, kind of like, is there a part of you that still does it all?
00:27:53:22 – 00:27:57:59
Joel Duggan
I haven’t drawn anything in three, maybe four years.
00:27:57:59 – 00:27:58:55
Agent Palmer
Oh, wow.
00:27:59:00 – 00:28:28:50
Joel Duggan
I think that part of it is that creative outlet that need to make and share something lately has been fed by Minecraft and podcasting. Okay, and so with podcasting, like The Sponge Chunks is recorded, edited and published on Monday, we do it all in one day and it’s a team effort, but it is incredibly satisfying to be like, we woke up Monday morning with nothing.
00:28:28:55 – 00:28:41:11
Joel Duggan
We were prepared. We made a thing, published a thing, shared a thing. The thing is done and you walk away. I head to the gym Monday evenings going like that was I did a thing today, like, I have done the job that and I’m ready to move on.
00:28:41:16 – 00:29:00:43
Agent Palmer
That first of all, the fact that you do that in one day, I know there’s prep and I know you read articles for it, but the fact that you wake up on Monday and then go to the gym when it’s done, that’s as someone who works so far ahead. So like, again, we’re recording this a month ahead of time.
00:29:00:43 – 00:29:16:31
Agent Palmer
And that’s kind of the process I’ve created. The idea of waking up, doing it episode and hitting publish is phenomenal. Like I’m almost speechless. This is like it’s kind of amazing that that’s the process.
00:29:16:36 – 00:29:22:41
Joel Duggan
Well thank you. And I will be very quick to point out that it’s a team process. The same.
00:29:22:46 – 00:29:27:31
Agent Palmer
People that still seems like amazing.
00:29:27:36 – 00:29:45:06
Joel Duggan
Thank you. With, with my other show, I it’ll be sometimes a month, like, I’ll record a show in May and publish it in June because I just don’t get to the editing or I have a trouble with the editing. Jonny, my podcasting and producing partner on the sponge trunks, has a background in audio engineering, so he edits a podcast very, very quickly.
00:29:45:09 – 00:30:05:11
Joel Duggan
We’ve also been at it for six years. We have a really good back and forth, and we have this live to hard drive mentality where unless it’s a real flub on a news article or piece of information that we need to get right, or like, you know, we mentioned in our little pre-show amble about like, you know, a bird squawking or a sneeze or like something like that.
00:30:05:20 – 00:30:23:24
Joel Duggan
We edit that kind of stuff out for audio quality. But as far as you know, a normal conversation, we just we keep it flowing. We try to think, live to hard drive. We do record live to a discord audience. So there’s also that kind of performance aspect to it. So we’re prepared. And I think that does help.
00:30:23:29 – 00:30:51:23
Joel Duggan
But to pull back the curtain, like I said, with with the little cafe, I sometimes take a long time to edit that show. I think I’m just slow at it. But I think that, you know, that creative outlet of doing the thing, whether it’s a longer editing process with the Sizzle Cafe or with the sponge chunks, combined with the fact that I do play Minecraft live on stream 3 or 4 days a week, and that is a creative game in itself.
00:30:51:23 – 00:31:10:46
Joel Duggan
So I’m also the ideas in my head. The visual things in my head are finding a way to get out to the world. Okay, it used to be through only drawing because back when I was doing professional illustration, I was not playing Minecraft. Like I just, I had some video games, but they would be like racing games or like first person shooters, just really recreational stuff.
00:31:10:50 – 00:31:41:48
Joel Duggan
I wasn’t doing a lot of creative things. And after the webcomics started to slow down a bit and I was doing a lot more commercial work, I did notice that because all of my creative outlet was for clients, I wasn’t necessarily drawing as much for me. Okay. And I’ve noticed that missing it a bit lately. I it’s a weird kind of like, I don’t want to say identity crisis, but like when you grow up and you’re known as the artist, your family knows you’re the artist.
00:31:41:48 – 00:31:56:31
Joel Duggan
You went to school for the arts, and then you got the job in the arts, like you said, you’re going to do. And then 20 years later, you’re not doing the thing that you went to school for, and you’re I, I love my day to day, don’t get me wrong. But it’s a weird sort of wake up call.
00:31:56:31 – 00:32:26:33
Joel Duggan
It’s like, well, it’s not like I quit everything and went to work in an office job. Like I didn’t give up on creating. I’ve just really kind of switched gears and it’s hard to swallow at first. You you think like, well, did I fail or am I giving myself a much needed break? Because I’m not sure if you’ve done any creative work with clients, but when you’re doing illustration work, sometimes you can have very good clients, and sometimes the clients will just suck the creativity out of the room.
00:32:26:33 – 00:32:29:06
Joel Duggan
I started just a yeah.
00:32:29:11 – 00:32:31:19
Agent Palmer
Web design,
00:32:31:24 – 00:32:31:47
Joel Duggan
Okay.
00:32:31:47 – 00:32:57:45
Agent Palmer
Business like in the early, you know, after college. So maybe 2005. No, 2008, something like that. Right before, like WordPress and like self-hosting stuff started. So I learned to, like, just hardcode websites and, yeah, there are good clients. There are bad clients. I don’t I had I have a, I had a business partner who could do the, the art stuff.
00:32:57:45 – 00:33:22:18
Agent Palmer
I was more like just the, this is the picture, make it work on the screen. I was like, okay, I can figure that out, but it I thought that taught me when I did get into corporate America and I worked with agencies to try and be the best client anyone’s ever had or at the client representative, what have you.
00:33:22:23 – 00:33:24:42
Agent Palmer
Because I never want to be the bad one.
00:33:24:47 – 00:33:45:45
Joel Duggan
Right? Yeah, yeah. When I when I’ve worked on a few occasions with other people, I’ve always wanted to make sure that both people’s interests were in the contract or in the agreement, whatever that happens to be. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that sucks. The wind out of my sails as far as doing that kind of stuff professionally for a while.
00:33:45:45 – 00:34:19:11
Joel Duggan
And with podcasting and the, Twitch stuff that I do, there are no clients. At least there’s no big clients, because the way that we’ve structured the podcasts for for revenue, we’ve got, you know, 500, no, 300 and something paying clients. Right. So it’s a lot easier to to deal with that than the other way around. If there was just one person, if the podcast was funded by one person, then that person would have an awful lot of input as to how the show would go.
00:34:19:16 – 00:34:47:10
Joel Duggan
And this way it’s more like, well, we can hear from our audience and it and it makes sense for us to lean towards what the audience is gravitating towards. And I think that that freedom is it’s nice after dealing with some, but I had some really nice clients, but I’m dealing with some of the early clients I had to deal with and the uncertainty of how that could go, or just looking for a new client like every other month like that.
00:34:47:10 – 00:34:49:27
Joel Duggan
That’s tedious too, right? Yeah, that’s the.
00:34:49:27 – 00:35:25:19
Agent Palmer
Reason I, like, I’ve gotten lucky in that my my consulting career has kind of, I’ve been, like, floundering from one client to the next. That’s always just enough. But I am not really good at selling myself. And I feel like a lot of creatives and self-employed people are always pretty bad at selling themselves. I would say it’s not universal, but in my experience, the better you are at the thing you do, the worse you are at selling yourself.
00:35:25:21 – 00:35:49:18
Joel Duggan
Yeah, I would say that’s a pretty common, common thread. I really don’t like sales either. And and so was never good at it. Never really put the time in to learn. Probably should have would have been my early career as an entrepreneur a lot easier. But, I relied on the work I relied on, I mentioned earlier, passion, you know, for me, with the illustration stuff like I, I loved doing it.
00:35:49:25 – 00:36:07:56
Joel Duggan
I was never that fast at it, but I would be happy with what I was doing, as a result. And that also usually meant the client was very satisfied with what they got. I often had to put in a lot of late hours to get it done on time, because I wanted to put such a good foot forward.
00:36:08:03 – 00:36:22:53
Joel Duggan
Yeah, but that quality ended up being my sales pitch, right? Like once you had enough on a website, you can say like, look, this is the kind of work that I do. If this is the kind of work that you want on your project, then reach out and hire me. And that was my entire pitch. And it served me well.
00:36:22:53 – 00:36:41:35
Joel Duggan
And after a while, I started getting some return clients. And that started to help. You know, you’re talking about stumbling from one client to the next. And what happened for me was like, I would do like a logo design or something for a smaller company. And then a year or two later they’d expand and they’d have a new office somewhere, or they’d have, you know, a new logo they want to do incorporate.
00:36:41:35 – 00:37:02:09
Joel Duggan
And so they say, oh, well, we worked with you all before. We’ll just work with you all again. And if you do that enough times, those return clients start to leapfrog each other, you know, like so in 2013, you’re working with one return client. And then in 2014 you’re working with a different return client. And then 15 and 16, the same client from 2013 comes back.
00:37:02:09 – 00:37:29:07
Joel Duggan
And so it builds itself up over time. It it’s a slow burn, but if you can get there, it was was really good to do that. I think that the, the thing for me with the, the creative stuff, as far as client goes in your day to day, I did find it difficult to do engage in creative work all day long and then try to find time in my evenings to do my own for fun.
00:37:29:07 – 00:37:49:34
Joel Duggan
Okay. And so one of the things that I find you’ll you’ll hear this from content creators as well, not just visual artists, but the temptation to monetize the different things that you’re doing for fun. So like, I would draw and learn, you know, comic strips for fun. And then I tried to turn that into part of my job, and it worked like I did.
00:37:49:34 – 00:38:05:05
Joel Duggan
It was part of my income for quite some time. Same thing with content creation. Like people play Minecraft for fun and then they start doing content creation, and then it becomes like a part time job side by side hustle that it becomes, well, maybe I’m going to be good at this, that this might take over my entire job, depending on what the home situation is like.
00:38:05:05 – 00:38:23:33
Joel Duggan
Right. And it’s difficult to then say, okay, well, do you play Minecraft for fun anymore? And I do, but it’s my job, right? So I don’t play Minecraft when I’m not streaming. It’s it’s like I feel like it’s cannibalizing my own content. Right. Well, and and.
00:38:23:38 – 00:38:28:21
Agent Palmer
When you make your hobbies, your job, you no longer have any hobbies. Really? Yes.
00:38:28:35 – 00:38:29:44
Joel Duggan
Yeah.
00:38:29:49 – 00:38:59:33
Agent Palmer
Yeah. So, I mean, I, I have to go back for a second. You’ve been in podcasting for a very long time, and you talked about doing the spawn chunks live to an audience on discord, but was performance even in the audio space? Was that ever? I mean, we talked about young you getting into illustration and drawing, but were you in plays like was you know, was there ever a point like, you know, because the theatrical aspect of this, like I was always behind the scenes.
00:38:59:38 – 00:39:31:08
Agent Palmer
The big thing for me about hosting this show was I was always the co-host. I was always the sidekick. I was the producer. This show was the first time I had ever been like, all right, no, it’s me. I’m now the guy. Right? But, you know, I, I, I was only ever stage crew, you know, in, in, in, like, high school and college and stuff and even when I played musical instruments, I’m a bassist again.
00:39:31:20 – 00:39:48:08
Agent Palmer
I’m the sidekick. I’m not the, the guy. So this podcast, literally the first time that I decided to, you know, be front and center, but had you been front and center before any of this.
00:39:48:13 – 00:40:11:25
Joel Duggan
The closest I could think of would be the guy in the in the class that was the artist, you know, like, I would be the person in grade school or middle school that would be recruited to draw or paint decorations for a play or do a banner or a background drop for a photo for like grade nine grad, like that kind of stuff.
00:40:11:30 – 00:40:28:12
Joel Duggan
In high school, I did start playing guitar. Bass guitar, as a matter of fact. And in university I was in a cover band. We played some coffeehouses and stuff. But I mean, basis you’re not up front like we had a lead singer and a guitarist and so. Well, it was comfortable in that I was up in front of people, but I didn’t have to sing.
00:40:28:12 – 00:40:45:02
Joel Duggan
I didn’t have to speak, never liked public speaking, giving art history presentations and stuff. Was the bane of my existence. I would rather write a term paper like I just it was not something I enjoyed. So I find it very funny that I’m, you know, now a podcaster as a profession because I did not want to get up in front of people.
00:40:45:02 – 00:41:02:07
Joel Duggan
Any kind of speech I ever gave was very nerve wracking. Some of that probably my age, like, you know, young man teens or early 20s, you’re just not used to that kind of stuff. You don’t have a job that requires you to do that kind of thing. So yeah, I was never, never wanting to be center stage.
00:41:02:07 – 00:41:25:51
Joel Duggan
And then when you get into arts and webcomics and starting to push that stuff out there, you’re, I want to say not necessarily front and center. You’re the one creating the thing like you’re the only person behind it, but you’re also behind the internet. Yeah. You’re not out in front of people. And so I never really had the desire to be to be out there.
00:41:25:51 – 00:41:45:18
Joel Duggan
I think that the combination of having a little bit of music in my background, and I’m not a musician, I just like I said, I just played in a cover band. But then combined with my time in animation where you’re essentially an actor, but again, behind the cartoon, I’m like, you’re you’re not on stage doing the thing.
00:41:45:18 – 00:42:17:46
Joel Duggan
You’re the script is written and you’re you’re having this little character do it. You know, you’re creating all the physical motions, but that kind of creates an idea of presentation, of a motion of timing. And I think a lot of that did translate into podcasting when I wanted to roll it forward. But yeah, I was never I was never fantasize about being an actor, you know, like, just you think of like, oh, that would be really cool to be in, like, the movies and action films that we all grew up watching, like Star Wars or whatever.
00:42:17:46 – 00:42:42:01
Joel Duggan
But like, I never, ever thought about it. Serious enough to try to be in a play or anything like that. I, I love the idea of of stand up comedy as a, as a comic artist. I thought pretty funny that I would come up with my own jokes with my characters, but I found that, I’m more of a character driven human, okay, as opposed to just someone that observes and makes jokes.
00:42:42:01 – 00:43:03:30
Joel Duggan
So I knew how to write for comic strips, but I wouldn’t have the first clue how to write for stand up comedy. And again, it’s that that I, you are the one person in front of a crowd, and I just, I cringe at the idea. I’m much better in group situations. I’ve done panels at conventions. But again, like, you’re also you’re not necessarily giving a talk.
00:43:03:32 – 00:43:20:35
Joel Duggan
You’re being interviewed about something you’re an expert in, like podcasting or comics or drawing or whatever. And, and usually by people that are much younger than you in the crowd saying like, oh, hey, like I’m a high school student. I want to do this. Like, what advice would you have for me? And if you’re in your mid 30s or something, you’re like, oh, well, I can, I can say I’ve been through that.
00:43:20:35 – 00:43:50:22
Joel Duggan
I know exactly what you’re going through and the questions that you have. And so when it’s something that I’m we’ll say more of an authority on, I’m a lot more comfortable being front and center. Okay. But it’s, it’s not something that I ever strive towards and still honestly, like, we just switched to video for the sponge trunks with episode 300, and I’ve done a few one off interviews on video where somebody else’s podcast was video, and they asked me to be there, and I was like, yeah, sure, and I’ll come on video.
00:43:50:22 – 00:44:13:11
Joel Duggan
That’s fine. But this is like, we’re hosting the show. And I’m, you know, reading the news or reading emails and stuff like that live on video to an existing audience. You know, it’s not like I’m starting off. There’s no one watching. Like, the show is almost six years old, so you drop a episode 300 and like, hey, by the way, now we’re on YouTube and you just kind of like, you try to put it in the back of your mind.
00:44:13:11 – 00:44:17:18
Joel Duggan
How many people could potentially be watching on YouTube views like, are you sure?
00:44:17:22 – 00:44:31:46
Agent Palmer
Maybe you should just forget that the potential number of how many people could be watching? Yeah, that’s I mean, it does lead me to this other question. You are Joel Dugan online.
00:44:31:46 – 00:44:32:20
Joel Duggan
Last time I.
00:44:32:20 – 00:44:58:39
Agent Palmer
Checked, I am Agent Palmer online. Now with the start of this podcast years ago, I introduced it as I’m Agent Palmer, also known as Jason Stern. And so I kind of mixed the thing that we all do. And, you know, I could name any number of creators out there that are one or the other or both. And many of them have been on your show.
00:44:58:44 – 00:45:23:59
Agent Palmer
But you are, Joel. And you’re you’re not, you know, agent someone else. You know what I mean? You’re not you’re not to put Johnny on the spot, but you’re not pixel riffs, right? So. Correct. You know, I just want to know, like, where are you? Like, you’ve and you’ve talked to enough creators as well that have made that decision or not made that decision.
00:45:24:03 – 00:45:36:57
Agent Palmer
Are you happy to be Joel, both online and as Joel, or do you kind of wish you had had like, I kind of wish I had a something else, you know, there’s no hiding when you’re doing video.
00:45:36:57 – 00:45:58:06
Joel Duggan
But for me, I, I like having it as simple as possible. Okay. I did have a company like because I thought when I started, working in animation after I finished school that I wanted to have my own studio, and eventually I would want to grow and I wouldn’t want it to just be me, because, well, if it’s just me, well, then how do you grow when it’s just your name on the business card?
00:45:58:06 – 00:46:19:56
Joel Duggan
So I had, a company called Anim Effects Entertainment, which was just animation in Halifax, jammed into one word. Started with an A, so it came up early in the, in the, listings for companies that were local, and I was constantly telling people how to pronounce it and how to spell it. So.
00:46:20:01 – 00:46:20:35
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:46:20:40 – 00:46:36:52
Joel Duggan
You know, even if I had put my last name like Doug in Entertainment or something like that on on or Doug in studios, you know, on, on the, on the, the card. I also would have been explaining, you know, how to spell that or what do you even do? Like it’s just something studios like, what does that mean?
00:46:36:57 – 00:46:55:26
Joel Duggan
And so I found that it was a lot easier. We talked earlier about explaining what you do to people. Well, if they couldn’t remember exactly what you did and how to find you, all they had to do was remember your name. That’s. And if you could and if you could Google at the time. Joel artist Halifax. Like I came up on Google it was pretty straightforward.
00:46:55:26 – 00:46:56:14
Agent Palmer
Pretty nice.
00:46:56:18 – 00:47:18:53
Joel Duggan
Okay. And so that that made it simple for me. It’s also kept me honest. And I think a lot of it is just an age thing. I, I always played video games growing up, but there wasn’t a lot of online play until university, and even then it was just fleeting. So I didn’t have like, a gamer handle, like a lot of people have now.
00:47:18:58 – 00:47:38:48
Joel Duggan
I, I didn’t have an identity that I wanted to protect because I didn’t necessarily get super famous with anything. So, I like a lot of the people that I know that have pseudonyms online. They also have spouses or kids or partners or other people. Like, they just don’t want to necessarily be found. And it’s a different thing.
00:47:38:48 – 00:47:57:19
Joel Duggan
If I was to start tomorrow, I, I would be on the fence about whether or not I would have, you know, a pseudonym, because I feel like on one hand, people appreciate the honesty on the podcast, but then if it came to Twitch like it would be probably better, you know, knowing what the internet is like and the trolls that come by your chatroom from time to time.
00:47:57:19 – 00:48:19:16
Joel Duggan
Like, thankfully I have a lovely moderation team and they really do help out a great deal with all that. But, I, I’m happy with it because I think that at this point I’ve made a name for myself doing it, and it’s it’s nice to keep it simple. I’m also not trying to spell a pseudonym, you know, like, I mean, fixer, it’s it’s a cool.
00:48:19:16 – 00:48:22:17
Joel Duggan
It’s a cool pseudonym, but there’s no E in pixel, right?
00:48:22:17 – 00:48:22:57
Agent Palmer
So you’re.
00:48:22:57 – 00:48:23:44
Joel Duggan
Always explaining.
00:48:23:44 – 00:48:50:37
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it’s still explaining. I my my, my real last name is Stir Shack. And, I, I’ve heard every mispronunciation and seen every misspelling possible. So, by the way, agent Palmer, if you say it fast enough, it is also a problem. Because I’ve gotten things that are like Asian. And it’s just like. Because depending on how fast.
00:48:50:51 – 00:49:16:31
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I yeah, I mean, as far as ease of use, I probably could have picked an easier pseudonym as well. Like, it’s one of those where it’s never exactly perfect either way. But it’s a I’m always curious because I again, like you, I would be on the fence if I went backwards and made that distinction. Now it’s just both.
00:49:16:36 – 00:49:23:47
Agent Palmer
I felt like this is my real voice there. I was starting a podcast. It there was no point in hiding.
00:49:23:54 – 00:49:49:03
Joel Duggan
And I think that’s I think it’s the podcasting thing that made me stick with it, because even on podcasts, I think I still get introduced as Joel in like, I may be on comics too, coast to coast. Brian called me Joel and didn’t really do the full last name. But then again, he often would do that just because of being kind of fun and charming.
00:49:49:05 – 00:50:09:14
Joel Duggan
Like, I’m just going to say your full name because it’s only me and your mother that get to do it. You know? You know that, that kind of thing. So, so I think that it was the audio format and again, like, you’re also for the longest time hiding behind the microphone, like I like I wasn’t on video, or if I was doing video content, you’d see my hands when I was drawing, but that’s it, okay.
00:50:09:17 – 00:50:31:33
Joel Duggan
And you wouldn’t necessarily, you know, be able to to pick me out on the street. Not that I mean, making it sound like I was a lot more well known on the internet than I really am, but that kind of thing, you know, it’s it’s it’s different when you’re putting your face out there, but, at the same time, you know, going right back to the podcasters that I admire, they also use their first and last names, like they have it out there.
00:50:31:33 – 00:50:51:49
Joel Duggan
They sometimes it was required because they were working for a larger podcasting entity. So it made sense to have their first and last names out there. Other times it was just a personal choice, and I do find that they work under and present their content under a set of rules, like they want to present a certain level, the they’re not, stirring the pot, so to speak.
00:50:51:58 – 00:51:14:51
Joel Duggan
And so they’re not going to get the same amount of hate or shade or cancellation or anything like that because they’re just not pushing those boundaries. And so at that point, it’s a lot easier to put your, your full name on things. Now, again, say, if I was to start a politics podcast here in Canada, I would be very hesitant to use my first and last name on that show.
00:51:14:51 – 00:51:38:14
Joel Duggan
People would probably be able to to draw a line and find me eventually, but I would want to make it as difficult as possible, because those are some heated conversations that I would want to direct those away from my other content. Right. So it’s I think it also can be content dependent, you know, like if you’re going out there to start like a really kid friendly YouTube channel, then like, sure, use your first and last name.
00:51:38:14 – 00:51:59:24
Joel Duggan
Why not, you know, or your first name at least as your handle or part of it. But if you’re going to be a controversial I’m going to poke the bear every time I’m behind a microphone or in front of a camera. Then, like you, maybe you want to choose like, you know, super fly 67 as a username or something just to, to keep it a little bit more anonymous.
00:51:59:24 – 00:52:16:59
Joel Duggan
I mean, really these days, I just talking with my buddy Steven about this on this little cafe recently where one of the people he follows on TikTok, I can’t remember the user’s name, but their TikToks are all basically stitching other people. They’re just kind of like, hey, look at me, I’m out here doing this thing, but you can’t find me.
00:52:16:59 – 00:52:32:26
Joel Duggan
And then he finds them like he knows what hotel they were staying in, what city, what floor they were on, whether they were on the east and the west side. And all he’s gone off of is like a photo and maybe like a little bit of what they might have posted and said in their social media posts. I mean, that’s terrifying.
00:52:32:31 – 00:52:51:53
Joel Duggan
And like, you have to be really careful if you don’t want to be found at all these days. So at some point it’s just going to be kind of useless. So you might as well just keep yourself honest and go with your real name for me, for for my content and. Then.
00:52:51:58 – 00:53:18:10
Agent Palmer
Whether it’s a blog, podcast, stream, video, art, book, poem, song, album, no matter how big or little, the thing may be, this conversation has laid out the two most important ingredients for success 50% passion to create and 50% desire to share that which you create. That’s it. If you have those two things and add them together, boom. Success.
00:53:18:15 – 00:53:45:48
Agent Palmer
I think too many people get caught up in the money and numbers game. Personally, I am creating the content I want to consume, as you’ve heard many say. And so how many downloads and how much or how little money I make is irrelevant. Most things fail by the money in numbers metric. Most podcast that don’t blow up go away after a few episodes, and that’s because those creators don’t look at the creation, they look at the result.
00:53:45:53 – 00:54:09:25
Agent Palmer
Don’t. Do not set yourself up that way. It’s a trap and too many people fall into it. Find yourself that passion to create and the desire to share, and then you’ll be setting yourself up in a much better place. And if you need some motivation, Joel talks to his viewers on stream and we both respond to reasonable inquiries because we’re willing to share what we have learned.
00:54:09:30 – 00:54:28:12
Agent Palmer
So if you don’t have that passion or desire, don’t worry about it. But if you do, you’re well on your way already. Good luck and thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 128. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion.
00:54:28:22 – 00:54:53:17
Agent Palmer
You can find all related ways to contact Joel and myself in the show notes. There you can find Joel’s podcast, respectively at the Citadel cafe.com or the Spawn chunks.com, or see all of his stuff with links to his socials. YouTube Twitch at. Joel Doug Inc.com that’s Joel dugan.com. The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com.
00:54:53:19 – 00:55:07:58
Agent Palmer
And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:55:08:03 – 00:55:15:53
Unknown
You.
00:55:15:58 – 00:55:39:46
Unknown
See?
00:55:39:51 – 00:55:42:52
Unknown
Me?
00:55:42:56 – 00:55:44:51
Agent Palmer
All right. Joel, do you have one final question for me?
00:55:44:55 – 00:56:05:57
Joel Duggan
Earlier in the show, you mentioned that you used to play or still play bass guitar. Yeah. I have picked up a new hobby that will remain a hobby foot down flag and sand. This will not be going online, but I recently picked up an acoustic guitar and I’m learning to play. It’s been 20 years since I’ve touched a guitar, so I’m basically a novice.
00:56:05:57 – 00:56:17:30
Joel Duggan
So if you play beyond just bass, if you play also the guitar or acoustic guitar, I would love any advice you have for someone that’s been playing for three weeks.
00:56:17:37 – 00:57:03:23
Agent Palmer
Okay, so, my first suggestion is, stay away from Bob Dylan for a while. And I only say that as someone who, during the pandemic, I got very into Dylan. But I’m someone who, with the exception of a Twitch stream, I played guitar on in front of, for my buddy’s 30th, 40th birthday, 35th birthday, something we did a, a little concert we used to play back in the college days, and he wanted to run a concert through his Twitch channel, and I went up, and I did that with that exception.
00:57:03:23 – 00:57:30:02
Agent Palmer
I’ve. I’ve mainly played with, my headphones on, you know, whether it’s bass or the guitar, electric or acoustic. I play with music, I play with the actual things. I would it’s not for, you know, performance. So I’d say stay Away from Dylan is number one because that the patterns and rhythms are just it. He doesn’t play in four four.
00:57:30:07 – 00:57:49:24
Agent Palmer
It doesn’t matter, in any capacity. And I, I got on a big Dylan kick and I went, oh, my God, I thought I could play acoustic guitar. Like I thought I was okay. I thought I was not, I thought I was, okay. And then I started to try and play him, and I went, I don’t know anything about this instrument, apparently.
00:57:49:28 – 00:58:17:00
Agent Palmer
But my second and this is the most important would be, the internet has been so good as far as guitar tabs. Find the songs you like, whether they’re easy or not. It doesn’t matter. Like, I’m. I’ve been playing, guitar and bass for almost 30 years now. I still can’t play a B7 on an acoustic guitar.
00:58:17:04 – 00:58:47:10
Agent Palmer
But, but a bar B is fine for most of the time, right? So I’ve just been. And I never had formal lessons, and I was relatively self-taught. But I think the key is, no matter what your form is, if you can get your chords down A, D, G, C, E, just find the songs you like that are close.
00:58:47:15 – 00:59:12:08
Agent Palmer
Even if you can’t do the riffs, even if you can’t do the the fingerpicking, if you can just play along with songs you like, you’re more likely to pick up the guitar after a long day on a Monday night, after you’ve done all this ball and chunks and gone to the gym, you’re more likely to come home and play a song you like than you are to practice scales.
00:59:12:13 – 00:59:30:07
Agent Palmer
And so I think it’s just about like, oh, this is this thing. And you will find, a capo is also your best friend because, like, there are songs out there that will be like, these are the same three chords, but if you put a capo two on it now all of a sudden you can play this other song, right?
00:59:30:07 – 00:59:48:44
Agent Palmer
And I just, I started a playlist of like, here are the acoustic songs I like that are simple and, and I have a, I have two basically I have two playlists. I have one that’s like, these are the songs I know how to play. Sometimes I still have to look up the chords, but I know how to play them.
00:59:48:49 – 01:00:13:38
Agent Palmer
And these are the songs I’d like to learn that are a little bit out of my whatever, my range or I just can’t ever remember them. And so it’s just a matter of if I just want to play. I definitely put on the songs I know, and if I’m in the mood to maybe challenge myself, I go to the maybe, but it comes with just like listening to music and going, oh, that seems simple enough.
01:00:13:43 – 01:00:41:43
Agent Palmer
And just create curating a list that’s kind of like my own private tutor with the internet guitar tabs, because then it’s like, this is fun. This is supposed to be fun. That’s, you know, and that’s that’s what I tell you. I like it. You didn’t pick this up to monetize it. You put your foot down that this is definitely going to be for you and therefore do whatever you can to make it about you.
01:00:41:43 – 01:01:11:23
Agent Palmer
Play your favorite songs, play your favorite bands. And sometimes you don’t know how easy or simple it is either. So like if your, listening to, you know, just the radio and a song comes on, just make a note of it. That’s the most important thing because you’re always going to forget. And then when you go home, look at the tab or the chord thing or, you know, especially if it’s just chords and go, well, it’s four chords.
01:01:11:28 – 01:01:17:37
Agent Palmer
I know all those chords. I can just pull up the tab and go, and I think that’s that would be my advice.
01:01:17:42 – 01:01:36:48
Joel Duggan
I really appreciate that because in a lot of ways I’m on the right track. Then because, I’m learning to play the basic chords and the rhythm for sticks seasoned by Noah Kahan. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with this or not. Know, faster than I could probably play right now. Like the song is faster than I’m capable of playing.
01:01:36:48 – 01:01:58:13
Joel Duggan
I can’t switch chords quite fast enough, but I can still just hit the whole notes and then switch to the chords that the whole notes, and it’s just the satisfying feeling of hitting the right chord with something you’re listening to. Like you said, like, I’ve got my EarPods out and I’m just kind of sitting on the couch. I did find a couple of tutorial videos online about how to play, but like more interpret the song.
01:01:58:13 – 01:02:13:52
Joel Duggan
They’re like, okay, look how he plays it. His heart, you know, here’s a capo on the second fret. Here’s how to play it in my interpretation, which I think will sound good, we’ll get you playing along with it. But it’s just the tempo of the song. The strumming is is up there as far as, skill level, I think.
01:02:13:52 – 01:02:30:35
Joel Duggan
So I’ve in a good way. I’ve bit off a little bit more than I can chew, but I can still play parts of it in time, and then I just can’t switch yet from, well, G to a D, whether I know I hit the D, I mean, I got big hands and so sometimes the D is a little bit out there.
01:02:30:35 – 01:02:51:27
Joel Duggan
I think I only just recently clued in about the shifts in your wrist. Like how a G and a D your wrist is in a 100% different position, whereas when you’re doing like a, a even, a c was a little bit different, but like E and A and even G, they’re roughly the same position. It’s only when you do some other.
01:02:51:32 – 01:03:08:02
Agent Palmer
I’ll tell you, I, I have poor because I was self-taught. I have poor positioning. And one of the first songs I ever learned to play was which was well out of my wheelhouse at the time, and it I should have never learned it. And I think this is the reason I have such bad posture on the acoustic guitar is patience.
01:03:08:07 – 01:03:34:35
Agent Palmer
Buy guns N roses and the reason that that ruined me is because it’s got a d f sharp in it, where you need your thumb to be on the low E at two. And so my thumb is always not where it’s supposed to be for that one song. I learned too early in my development playing, so I just have poor posture or poor form, I should say, all the way around.
01:03:34:35 – 01:04:03:17
Agent Palmer
But like, if you like the song, right? And that’s why it’s very important. There are some songs that we all love that can be very boring to play, but if you like it, it doesn’t matter. And one of them, like for example, the Tragically Hip Sweet Kinks is like three chords maybe. And it’s not that much fun to play unless you like the song and then you’re fine, right?
01:04:03:17 – 01:04:26:20
Agent Palmer
And so it’s not challenging. And it’s not as challenging as, say, like Blues Traveler’s Runaround, which is a nice progression that you just repeat over and over again. But you have to like the song because even that gets boring. It’s the same four chords for the entire like, so you just have to. As long as you like the song as long as you’re playing music you like, that’s it.
01:04:26:20 – 01:04:34:56
Agent Palmer
And look, you were a bass player when we were starting out. Here’s your five notes and you’re going to play on the quarter, right?
01:04:34:56 – 01:04:36:20
Joel Duggan
Just do it.
01:04:36:24 – 01:04:59:24
Agent Palmer
Don’t you have to like the music? It’s it’s just kind of the similar thing. And I would also say coming from a place where you have played bass before, just know that if you can in your mind translate it to just play the chords on the quarter note like you would have for the bass, that’s all you really need to do.
01:04:59:29 – 01:05:19:47
Agent Palmer
When you get comfortable, then maybe you can do a little picking or like do a movement or something else, but the rest of it is just you’re just playing some fun stuff and I can, I can send you my playlist because a lot of it’s fairly simple. I’m not great, but I have fun and that’s.
01:05:19:52 – 01:05:38:18
Joel Duggan
That’s the best. Well, and that’s that’s fantastic. I love the playlist, man, that I really appreciate that because that’s that’s what I want to do. Like I want to have fun with it. I, I’ve been more and more into music lately. I, I’ve always liked it, but I’ve never been like a real music aficionado. I just kind of like what I like, and I play the same stuff, you know, every once in a while I find a new artist.
01:05:38:18 – 01:05:54:32
Joel Duggan
But most time it was just the same old, same old. But of course, as I picked up the guitar, I’ve started to like, seek out different styles of things and thankfully, like you have all these songs now on your playlist. I have similar. I’ve got, you know, the songs I like to listen to, but then there’s also like, these are the songs I want to learn how to play.
01:05:54:45 – 01:06:08:16
Joel Duggan
Yeah. And as I listened to those on Apple Music, when that song like that list of ten songs runs out, Apple’s Like You might like this one, you might also like this one. So it’s been growing over the last couple of weeks as I just like I don’t bother to stop the playlist. It just kind of keeps on going.
01:06:08:16 – 01:06:24:56
Joel Duggan
It’s like, oh, I’ve never heard of these people. Let’s just add those are the playlist. That sounds like a pretty straightforward song, and I know that I’m getting a little ahead of myself in that I’ve been dabbling around with some fingerpicking just to kind of get used to it, and it is really difficult. I’m finding it. I know the pattern.
01:06:24:56 – 01:06:39:48
Joel Duggan
I can understand the pattern. I can tell my hand to do the pattern. It’ll do the pattern twice through. No problem. The right timing, right beat, everything. Third time through the pattern, wrong finger goes and you’re just going, like what? I just I know that I just told you 10s ago to do this correctly.
01:06:39:53 – 01:07:04:40
Agent Palmer
What happened? It’s just in the last. It’s just it’s just one of those things, and I’ve. I’ve, I like I’ve resigned myself to the fact that, like, I’ll probably never play Blackbird by the Beatles, right? Like, you know, there’s something. Okay. That’s fine. Right. And I still remember enough of stairway, from back in my youth that I can still play stairway, but I’m okay with my simple playlist.
01:07:04:40 – 01:07:28:15
Agent Palmer
Right? It’s just that it’s. Yeah, it’s for me. And I think it I like I’m happy for you because I sit here talking to creators and, business people and all kinds of different people. And a lot of the time towards the end, if I have the time, I ask them what they do for themselves and too often people don’t have a thing for themselves.
01:07:28:28 – 01:07:52:54
Agent Palmer
Not because, like you, you, they’ve monetized the thing that used to be their hobby, but because they’re just so busy and they don’t have that. They don’t have a passion for something else. And I think that that’s like, I feel like I, I feel bad. I asked the question because I brought it up. Now they’re going away. I don’t follow up necessarily, but like sometimes I do and I’m like, I’m so sorry.
01:07:52:59 – 01:08:07:09
Agent Palmer
Do you want help finding a hobby? Like, I feel bad that I just made you think about the fact that you don’t do anything for yourself. But I’m happy for you that you’ve you’ve taken this step because it’s it’s so important, and you need to recharge.
01:08:07:09 – 01:08:26:29
Joel Duggan
Oh, 100%. Yeah. I like having the distraction. I like the fact that it is not. I say it’s not in front of a screen, but I’ve been using obviously my TV and YouTube to like, play along, but eventually I won’t need that stuff. Eventually I’ll be able to just sit down, you know, on a porch or in my living room or wherever and just and play a couple things.
01:08:26:29 – 01:08:52:13
Joel Duggan
I, I grew up, liking jazz and, looking forward to learning some blues on the guitar. So some stuff that I can play on my own and not have to necessarily have an accompaniment track going, so that is long term goals, you know, like it’s and I think with anything like this, it’s important to have like a long term vision and then some immediate like I need to work on like switching between C and D repetitively, you know, just to kind of get that down.
01:08:52:17 – 01:09:01:42
Joel Duggan
And because once you, I feel like you can unlock those skills and I have I don’t think I’ve missed a day. I think I’ve picked it up for at least 15 minutes every day since I got it.
01:09:01:42 – 01:09:21:47
Agent Palmer
It’s really it’s I, it’s it sounds so simple. And everybody always, you know, says the thing and it’s just like getting back into reading, which I turned myself back into a reader just by like 15 minutes, like a few pages every day, even if it’s not a lot, even if you don’t get the whole chapter done, even if you’re only picking it up for like three songs, like just a little bit every day.
01:09:21:47 – 01:09:23:03
Agent Palmer
So important.
01:09:23:08 – 01:09:35:39
Joel Duggan
And I think a really good sign about it too, is that like, I’ll sit down at, you know, after my lunch at noon, just like, oh, I got 45 minutes. This is great. I’ll grab this for 15 and then I’ll go scream. And then at five minutes to one I’m like, oh crap, I’ve got to go.
01:09:35:44 – 01:09:36:08
Agent Palmer
I need.
01:09:36:17 – 01:09:38:16
Joel Duggan
I need to put this guitar down and go get ready to.
01:09:38:16 – 01:09:39:40
Agent Palmer
Go. That is a great sign.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).