Episode 75 features Keelin the Magpie, who’s background in the creative arts has prepared her for the thankless job of critically reviewing podcasts.
We discuss how that came to be, the process of reviewing media, podcasting as a medium, reading, writing, scripts, criticism, community and much much more.
Throughout the conversation, we discuss:
- Critical Podcast Reviews
- A Review Blog Origin
- Always a reader
- Theatre background
- Books are a happy place
- Dramaturgy
- Musical Theatre
- What is podcasting?
- Audio drama
- Script reading
- Professional Critiques
- GreatPods
- Finding Community
- Talking about Podcasts
- Criticism and Indie Podcasts
- Audio Quality
- Bad press myth
- Reviewing something in production
- Podcasting is a different medium.
- And much more
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:24:40
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com Len Deighton takes his spy sensibilities into the jungles of South America. Hustle Scores Points is a modern love letter to basketball. And while I never thought I would want to go back to school, Janice has given me something to consider. This is The Palmer Files, episode 75 with Keelin the magpie whose background in the creative arts has prepared her for the thankless job of critically reviewing podcasts.
00:00:24:45 – 00:01:08:15
Agent Palmer
We discuss how that came to be the process of reviewing media podcasting as a medium, reading, writing, scripts, criticism, community, and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:08:19 – 00:01:37:26
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 75th episode is Keelin, who, among other things, and a day job or two, at times critically. Reviews. Podcasts. We discuss her origin as a reviewer and blogger because it all starts with the first post. We also dive into her background and how majoring in theater and working in it has honed her critical ear, so to speak, and made her, in my mind, one of the best critical podcast reviewers out there.
00:01:37:31 – 00:02:02:25
Agent Palmer
Our conversation also includes our constant consumption of content, the happy place that is reading a book, talking about podcasts and finding the podcast community. The double edged sword of podcast reviewing and audio quality dramaturgy, moving into new mediums, and how reviewing something that is still being created is a unique responsibility. All of that and a whole lot more is coming your way shortly.
00:02:02:25 – 00:02:27:18
Agent Palmer
But first, if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer, my guest Keelin at I am Keelin. It that’s I am Keeelinit. And this show at the Palmer Files. You can find more information about Keelin at mentally a magpie.com. And you can connect with Keelin on Instagram or TikTok both at the I am Keelin it like her Twitter.
00:02:27:23 – 00:02:43:17
Agent Palmer
Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get critical.
00:02:43:21 – 00:03:18:09
Agent Palmer
Keelin I have been a blogger for forever and I have reviewed plenty of things. And as I say, all the time, there’s one negative review on my blog and I felt dirty even writing about it. So if I don’t like something, I just don’t write about it. You have the I, I want to say thankless job of reviewing podcasts for a blog where everybody wants the iTunes review the like they want the application reviews.
00:03:18:13 – 00:03:24:11
Agent Palmer
How did the the I’m going to start a blog reviewing podcast come to be?
00:03:24:16 – 00:03:32:17
Keelin
So I went to school with someone who has become pretty successful on the bookstagram circuit.
00:03:32:22 – 00:03:34:24
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:03:34:29 – 00:03:53:06
Keelin
Her name is Phoebe Wright. She is at Read and Write, on her platforms, and she was always someone I looked up to a little bit at school. And she, like, currently, she’s sitting around, like, 10,000 followers on Instagram.
00:03:53:17 – 00:03:53:53
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:03:53:58 – 00:04:15:35
Keelin
And I have been a lifelong reader. You know, when I was a little, when I was it when I was a kid, it would be my mom tried to send me to summer camp, but I ended up sitting and reading a book, and I very distinctly remember sitting at the table with the counselors and having Eragon open. And my.
00:04:15:47 – 00:04:33:35
Keelin
So I was always a reader, and I tried to kind of get into the bookstagram a little bit, and I did. I played with it. I had a different blog before magpie. It was just it didn’t jive right with me to do that, to do books.
00:04:33:39 – 00:04:34:32
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:04:34:36 – 00:04:57:58
Keelin
For some reason. And I think it’s because I work in a creative field. I have my background in theater. I was a stage manager until I took on an admin job for regular paycheck and I work in theater. I read a lot. I listen to podcasts. Every once in a while, I I’ll watch a TV show or movie.
00:04:58:03 – 00:05:29:21
Keelin
I play video games. I am ingesting a lot of content on a month, month, week, week basis. And I think with books, I needed to keep something kind of safe and sacred in that critical thought process of my critical brain is always on for the most part, and I needed to kind of not have the thing that really is my center, like books are kind of my center.
00:05:29:25 – 00:05:42:48
Keelin
They’re my happy place. I will sit down and read a book in one sitting if I have a day off sometimes, and I like the day Alan Rickman died. I read Sense and Sensibility in one sitting.
00:05:42:53 – 00:05:43:26
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:05:43:30 – 00:05:44:45
Keelin
Yowza.
00:05:44:50 – 00:06:06:46
Agent Palmer
Well, I I, I turned myself into a reader reading tournament. I was a reader when I was a child. In fact, I have a similar story to you. Like, I went to camp sleepaway camp, maybe three summers. One of those summers, I read Jurassic Park. I was too young to read Jurassic Park. I’ve recently reread it.
00:06:06:53 – 00:06:35:25
Agent Palmer
There’s a lot I missed. Being like, what? I was like a ten year old reading Crichton. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah, you’re going to miss stuff. But I turned myself into a reader. I think it’s an I. I consume about as much media as you, just in different forms. I don’t play the video games I once used to, but I, I definitely read and watch a lot.
00:06:35:25 – 00:07:01:46
Agent Palmer
In fact, I don’t listen as much anymore. I think being a creator, I the podcast listening took a nosedive off a cliff the moment I started this show. Like, I try to keep up with everything, but I’d rather keep up with my friends than keep up with their podcasts. Yeah. And a couple years ago I did, or I guess a year and a half ago, I did a clean.
00:07:01:51 – 00:07:21:43
Agent Palmer
I got a new phone and I did a clean break, and I went, I’m going to start all my feeds over again. And I’ve done that twice since then, and now I’m down to, like, just one show. Really? Yeah. But all the other stuff. Right. And for me, if I have something to say about it, I want to review it.
00:07:21:43 – 00:07:47:26
Agent Palmer
So I treat everything that way, which I. Yeah, look, I understand, you’re what you keep sacred with books like, I, I, in fact, I, I almost feel like I get a little bit more out of books now that I’m reviewing them than when I was just reading them, because I’m forced to go back at, like, I don’t know how much of a book, a book purist you are, but like, I’m not touching my books.
00:07:47:26 – 00:08:12:47
Agent Palmer
Like I’m reading my books. I’m not highlighting in them. I I’ll, I’ll, I’ll write something down like, oh, first paragraph, page 312. And then after I’m done, I get to go back and look over those notes. Yeah. So it’s changed the way I consume books a bit. Everything else, because it’s a lot easier to consume, you know, it’s it’s, you know, 90 minutes for a movie, whatever.
00:08:12:47 – 00:08:29:33
Agent Palmer
It’s like. Oh, yeah, I, I turn it off and I go, I have something to say about this, or I don’t write. And I feel like you probably have a podcast that you listen to and then ones that you go in to try and review, maybe you don’t maybe listen to a show and you’re like, man, I don’t have anything there.
00:08:29:38 – 00:08:54:29
Keelin
Yeah, that definitely happens. That actually that I feel that way about podcasts where I feel like I get more out of them because I’m reviewing them. And books at this point are escapism. I’m just trying to shut my brain off a little bit. I’m not. I’ve started reading a lot of romance just because it’s easier to read than some of the high fantasy novels.
00:08:54:29 – 00:09:17:48
Keelin
I cannot read token. I’ve read one book of, well, I’ve read The Hobbit and The Hobbit was easier, but I don’t necessarily want to always sit and think. I had a very okay. Yeah, yeah, I had a very literature heavy degree. I have two degrees, actually. I have a literature heavy theater degree, and I also have a degree in Spanish.
00:09:17:48 – 00:09:47:46
Agent Palmer
Hold on, hold on. Why is theater so literature? Like I, I mean, the, the plays. Is that is that it or is it there more to it because I look, I’m a communications major. I took the easiest classes all the way through. Okay. So and I did work on the stage crew. So like I, I have a bit of a theater background in that regard, but where’s the the heavy literature in theater?
00:09:47:51 – 00:10:13:23
Keelin
Oh, I, my theater degree was very history heavy. So I have read lists, I have read the Greeks, I have read, I actually at one point I was doing two classes that touched on the golden age of Spanish theater, which is actually two centuries, which is about a little bit of overlap with like the William Shakespeare.
00:10:13:38 – 00:10:14:20
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:10:14:24 – 00:10:33:55
Keelin
And so yes, it’s the plays and everything, but so this is something I’m into a little bit more just because my, schedule didn’t work out to cover the more 20th century entertainment. I’m starting to dive a little bit more into the radio drama history.
00:10:33:57 – 00:10:34:46
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:10:34:51 – 00:10:36:46
Keelin
Because that ties back into theater.
00:10:36:51 – 00:10:37:37
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:10:37:42 – 00:11:11:09
Keelin
You know, theater started out in ancient Greece as a religious ritual and then continued on and evolved through multiple different iterations, from street theater buskers or commedia dell’arte, which is Italian street theater, where they have archetypes, where they put a mask on and you know exactly what their character is from the grumpy old man. Or if they don’t have a mask, they’re typically one of the young lovers, if I’m remembering that correctly.
00:11:11:14 – 00:11:49:30
Keelin
So there’s a lot in the theater because it’s so old. And also it’s just it’s a through line of humanity that kind of sits in between music and more traditional fine art and literature. It kind of it encompasses a little bit of everything. And then you have, once you add in the whole like musical theater aspect of it, you have the overall, especially the overlaps with opera, classical, more classical, the ballet, the dancing and how it all kind of like ebbs and flows from each other.
00:11:49:30 – 00:11:52:28
Keelin
Yeah, that’s where everything overlap.
00:11:52:28 – 00:12:20:49
Agent Palmer
I’ll be honest, I hate musical theater and it could just be the stage crew thing of like, I don’t want to hear this fucking song ever again. And I, I think because it’s been so long, decades and decades, most of those songs have gone. But I also will probably never, ever go see Shenandoah again, because I don’t think that I don’t I think it’s just like a, like an alcoholic who’s, like, recovered.
00:12:20:49 – 00:12:49:18
Agent Palmer
Like, I feel like if I heard those songs again, they would be completely stuck in my head again, and I, I yeah, I lived with that for like six months or whatever, you know, through all the practices. And then the, the, but I, I can see the through line from theater to podcasting, especially with the, the radio and, the vaudeville stuff and just everything, you know, brass tacks storytelling.
00:12:49:18 – 00:13:20:17
Agent Palmer
Right? Like, yeah, that’s that’s what it is. And I think that, I don’t think anybody really knows what podcasting is supposed to be yet because we’re not learning, and I don’t think we’ve learned enough from old radio. But I also think that we are being diluted by the visual mediums that are also around us. So people and I’m, I’m no exception.
00:13:20:22 – 00:13:44:08
Agent Palmer
I look at my influences and my influencers and I go, well, half of them are radio, but half of them are talking heads on TV. Right? So they have when they tell a story. You know, the easy example being like sports or news, they have a clip like that. They don’t have to, there is no theater of the mind for them.
00:13:44:19 – 00:13:57:41
Agent Palmer
Like, oh, yeah, this guy made a three pointer, which is, you can see to my left over my shoulder. Right. Like. Yeah. And so there’s a disconnect there that I don’t think we’re learning enough from back like further back.
00:13:57:41 – 00:14:21:33
Keelin
I, I would kind of agree with that. And that’s where I’ve been dipping into radio drama. I’m our audio audio drama. It’s not really radio drama anymore, but the audio drama aspect of podcasts is something that I am. I kind of, listen on fell in and I’m not I’m not really climbing out. I don’t really want to climb out either.
00:14:21:38 – 00:14:24:44
Agent Palmer
What about audiobooks real quick? Nope.
00:14:24:48 – 00:14:45:44
Keelin
I have never really enjoyed an audio book, and I think it’s I think it actually is probably my theater background that says there are multiple characters, they should have different voices and they should be acting, I know there are a couple audiobooks that do kind of toe that line.
00:14:45:49 – 00:14:46:20
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:14:46:25 – 00:15:09:55
Keelin
And I also think of, you know, reading a long in class was always hard because you have, for some things, especially the Shakespeare stuff, where the language is sometimes a little bit more inaccessible when you’re trying to read it like it needs to be heard. Shakespeare’s, not Shakespeare’s plays, are not necessarily meant to be read. They’re meant to be heard.
00:15:09:55 – 00:15:33:46
Keelin
Yes. And, but for me, you know, reading along like the Shakespeare was always my favorite. So I’m like, oh, this is what this is supposed to sound like. But reading along with books and trying my brain working with the page and listening to the audio, it was never a good time for me. So I like the audio drama.
00:15:33:46 – 00:16:02:02
Agent Palmer
That makes sense. I. The thing about Shakespeare, for me was always that to your point, it is a script you’re reading. And if we if we fast forward to now, especially like the early aughts, late 90s, early aughts when like, die hard fans would, you know, find their industry contacts to get, rejected script or a script in general of their favorite film.
00:16:02:07 – 00:16:07:44
Agent Palmer
These are the only people that care about the script that aren’t the actors, directors or producers.
00:16:07:49 – 00:16:08:38
Keelin
00:16:08:43 – 00:16:37:41
Agent Palmer
And yet we are telling everybody that Shakespeare, here’s the script. This is like consume it like, all right. There’s a bit of a disconnect here. You if you don’t already like it on stage, on the screen, whatever. The script isn’t going to and script writing is a different kind of writing and different kind of storytelling and script reading is so, like, I, you and I have.
00:16:37:42 – 00:16:38:07
Keelin
Been.
00:16:38:12 – 00:17:05:48
Agent Palmer
Behind the scenes of stage productions, period. And I don’t care if it’s middle high, higher ed or beyond. There’s a reason that rehearsals take place and that every script always has notes in the margin. Those notes in the margin don’t exist when here’s a book of a script from something, right? Like it’s just like, here’s Shakespeare, like, well, where’s the blocking?
00:17:05:48 – 00:17:15:51
Agent Palmer
Where is he supposed to be? What’s the. None of that’s in the script. Maybe exit stage left maybe. But for that part, it’s like, oh, this person was didn’t exist before.
00:17:15:56 – 00:17:40:07
Keelin
Well, what’s interesting about that is that I think that’s a little bit of a lost art since we’ve gotten, I don’t want to say like, we’re at we’re in a different age. But at one point, if you go back and you read some more Oscar Wilde, Eugene O’Neill, Shaw, a little bit of Shaw, and you’ve read the right publication of it, it reads like a book.
00:17:40:07 – 00:17:40:31
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:17:40:41 – 00:18:14:59
Keelin
Because they took the blocking and then put it in a publication for the people who could not see the stage play. Okay. And it makes more sense. But when we’re given someone who actually is working on the production, we don’t necessarily want that because this is our production. Yeah. But for someone who’s just going to be reading the script, there are specific publications and specific version of them where they’ve actually taken the blocking from a show and put it in to help that along.
00:18:15:04 – 00:18:36:55
Keelin
And that’s something that I think a lot, not a lot of people realize, and not a lot of people realize how much of an art it is to be able to sit and read a script that you’re about to use in a show or a production, versus one that’s been published and bound and looks really pretty. Those are two different things, and they’re two different art forms, and they’re two different types of analysis.
00:18:36:55 – 00:18:41:00
Keelin
And just looking at it now.
00:18:41:05 – 00:19:18:04
Agent Palmer
I want to get back to what I said at the beginning, which is you’re you’re reviewing podcasts for your blog, which again, thankless. I mean, people are probably like, thanks for that. Can you put that on my iTunes? Like, and I, I, I don’t want to get into that part of it. What I want to say is I don’t believe and this is as someone with a podcast and I understand, I think one of the weird things about podcasting is I at the very least, I know what my shortcomings are and I acknowledge them, whether either on mic or behind the scenes.
00:19:18:04 – 00:19:39:53
Agent Palmer
And this is the show I want to make, I’m not trying to do something else, but I don’t think it there’s enough of a critical look at podcasting and I mean, period, right. It doesn’t matter if it’s Rogan or Maron or what has become of the podcast network, and I haven’t listened to any of that stuff in a while.
00:19:39:53 – 00:20:09:03
Agent Palmer
But one of the weird things about it is, without a critical eye, you know, Maron’s kind of maintained his thing. Rogan has kind of maintained his thing as well. I know that people don’t like him and people can have their opinions, but he’s maintained even though he’s changed platforms. I like podcast as the really great example that we may need some critiquing because it starts with Kevin Smith and and Scott.
00:20:09:08 – 00:20:09:52
Agent Palmer
But.
00:20:09:57 – 00:20:10:35
Keelin
00:20:10:40 – 00:20:38:24
Agent Palmer
Kevin, because he’s so popular, goes, I’ll have another show with Jason. That doesn’t mean that that is a great show, but Kevin’s fans will follow him and that leads to a, I want to say, a false positive, almost. Is it a great show? I don’t know, most of the people I know that are listening to more than one Kevin Smith show are Kevin Smith fans, so I don’t know that they’re they’re they’re not being critiqued.
00:20:38:28 – 00:20:53:50
Agent Palmer
And, I’ve written five podcast recommendations, six, seven maybe on my which is what I was listening to at the time and what it wasn’t a critique, it was I’m a fan of this show. Maybe you will too.
00:20:53:54 – 00:20:54:14
Keelin
Yeah.
00:20:54:18 – 00:21:16:45
Agent Palmer
I don’t think we’re taking a critiquing look at it ever, really. I mean, there’s people making money doing this. There’s people that are like for $500, I’ll tell you what you’re doing wrong. But in general there’s no, reviewing community. I feel like I know you and you’re on your own. It basically like you, you are, you are the reviewer.
00:21:16:50 – 00:21:49:30
Keelin
I am, but I’m not. So the way going back to kind of how this all started with magpie was off the cuff. I reviewed Murder in Oregon, which is Lauren Brett Pacheco, iHeart Really great podcast in general. I like her reporting in general and the production styles there. And then I’d say Covid hit my world got super turned upside down with Covid being a theater worker.
00:21:49:34 – 00:21:49:55
Agent Palmer
Yep.
00:21:49:59 – 00:22:24:07
Keelin
And I just kind of I wasn’t reviewing, I wasn’t working on my blog. I wasn’t doing really anything like that. I was working for jobs during Covid. Somehow. And I moved on to new Jersey with my boyfriend because he got a job for a while. His job came back and because he also works in theater and I wake up one day to a Twitter message from a random guy who is great Pods and Ron, and he’s like, hey, did you write this?
00:22:24:07 – 00:22:57:43
Keelin
I want to put it on my blog. And also, you should keep doing this. And Great Pods is trying to become the Rotten Tomatoes of podcasts, and it’s becoming a database of critical podcast reviews. So I have to him a lot with push to recreate magpie and make it what it is now. And I really did see, I think I did see that lack of critical reviewing two and a half years ago.
00:22:57:43 – 00:23:26:44
Keelin
When I did write that review, I wrote it because I just really liked it. And I’m like, no one’s doing this. Why is no one talking about podcasts? Yeah, they’re really fun and I like them. And it also was an outlet I distinctly remember I was a senior in college. I had started listening to this podcast, Kill You, which is an infectious disease epidemiology podcast, and I had been taking a class on epidemiology to get that lovely science crowd out of mine.
00:23:26:49 – 00:24:08:59
Keelin
And I was explaining something about one of the diseases to one of my roommates, and they just looked at me and she goes, you’re listening to another podcast, aren’t you? And like, yeah, yeah, I’m listening to a new podcast. How did you know? And so it also became an outlet for me because I don’t really shut up about podcasts, and I don’t have I’m sorry to find them now, but at the time, 3 or 4 years ago when I graduated college, it wasn’t quite like it is now, or I hadn’t found that community yet where people were like, I like podcasts, too.
00:24:08:59 – 00:24:10:00
Keelin
Let’s talk about it.
00:24:10:02 – 00:24:35:47
Agent Palmer
Well, don’t forget, even now and and I say this with all due respect, and it’s me I’m including in this. If you like podcasts, you want to tell people about it. And the people that are like, yep, these are the five I listened to or these are the ten I listened to. Don’t have time to listen to the ones you want them to listen to.
00:24:35:47 – 00:25:08:09
Agent Palmer
And everybody else who’s listening to none is like, all right. Yeah, you’re going on about podcasts again. And I think, serial had an opportunity to open the door for more people. But when serial, when the Big Bang for serial happened, I was in an office. People that, I mean, I had been listening to podcasts all along. People got into serial, waited for season two, and then never took the jump to anything else.
00:25:08:14 – 00:25:33:59
Agent Palmer
So in the history of podcasting, such as it is, I look at serial as a missed opportunity because they didn’t convert the listeners to, at least in my experience, for the people that were around me, they didn’t convert them to podcasts listeners, they were serial fans. It’s like, oh, you’re a token fan and you’ve never moved into any other high fantasy.
00:25:34:09 – 00:25:51:33
Agent Palmer
It’s like, then you’re just a token fan. You’re not a high fantasy fan, but I’m with you like, I, I needed Twitter for that. Actually. If it wasn’t for Twitter, I think my family would have ostracized like, oh, he’s talking about fire podcasting again.
00:25:51:38 – 00:26:18:17
Keelin
That’s yeah, that’s what it what it turned into. And Twitter, definitely. Twitter definitely has helped a lot. And finding kind of that community. And also I used to talk a lot about tweeting into the void, in sort of just getting it out there and getting it out of me so I could maintain my relationships and have it be less of killing your obsessing again.
00:26:18:22 – 00:26:35:07
Keelin
And then with the critical reviewing, it just it was something I slid into, I think because of my definitely because of my background. I used to moonlight as a dramaturge, or dramaturg. The courts a little bit out on how you exactly pronounce that.
00:26:35:12 – 00:26:35:50
Agent Palmer
What is it?
00:26:35:56 – 00:27:07:53
Keelin
But dramaturge is a specific discipline in the theater arts that sits a little bit in a little bit of everything, a little bit of script development. When I dipped my toes into dramaturgy, I was presenting contextual facts for a production. So I worked on a production of Superior Donuts by Tracy Letts. And so my, my place in that specific production was giving.
00:27:07:58 – 00:27:31:01
Keelin
I make a research packet. I look up all the background information of the time period. I it was it’s about a donut shop in a, Vietnam vet war draft. Well, he was a draft dodger in the show and current race relations versus his upbringing and a lot of other different things. This was two years ago now.
00:27:31:10 – 00:27:32:45
Agent Palmer
Optioned this for a television show.
00:27:32:45 – 00:27:34:35
Keelin
I think it was a television show. Yes.
00:27:34:36 – 00:27:36:21
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:27:36:26 – 00:28:10:02
Keelin
So I did the historical context for that of specifically Chicago, the police history in Chicago, the race relations history in Chicago, the relationship between being Polish specifically. So that’s one side of dramaturgy, which is I really like that side a lot. And then there’s also dramaturg who do new play development. So they’ll work with a playwright either helping obviously helping them with research, but also helping them with almost editing and just development.
00:28:10:07 – 00:28:37:54
Keelin
Then there’s also literary management, which is they’ll work for theater, typically a regional theater, and they’ll be the one sorting through helping option, new scripts, old scripts, programing. There’s a lot that just kind of falls under that. Yeah. So I think that’s where my brain really fits into the critical stuff, because I’m looking at it as a whole.
00:28:37:54 – 00:28:44:29
Keelin
I’m looking at it as a complete work, in my opinion, a a complete work of art.
00:28:44:33 – 00:28:44:57
Agent Palmer
Yes.
00:28:44:57 – 00:29:13:21
Keelin
And how successful it’s being and its mission and whatever its mission is versus I like the content, or I didn’t like the content, or I liked their voice and I didn’t like their voice or, you know, I listened to 30s and the ads were too loud. I don’t I obviously I do have my likes and my dislikes. I like, oh, she’s kind of big enough.
00:29:13:21 – 00:29:54:09
Keelin
I like to use Ologies as my example of a podcast. I kind of should like content wise, but I don’t like the production style personally. And it’s not that it’s a bad podcast. I will suggest it to people who I’m like, hey, you might like this, but I don’t like the production style and that’s just me. But it’s still a good podcast and so I’m trying to break apart all of those different thoughts and feelings and put words, and it’s a skill that I’ve been able to build over, over my life is because it’s just I sometimes I’m like, I don’t know how I ended up here, but I’m here.
00:29:54:20 – 00:30:37:31
Agent Palmer
Well, I, I think, well, I think generally speaking, where we’re all where we are and I think most people have no idea how we got there. You point to a point here or there where you may have taken a left or right turn, but generally speaking, we’re all kind of amazed this is where we are right now. But to that point, I understand where your critical ear comes from, and I understand that it being in theater and around theater and your background, both educationally and professionally, you can write, but regular content creation is not for everyone.
00:30:37:36 – 00:30:44:09
Agent Palmer
And you even said yourself earlier that, you know, it wasn’t always regular. And I look, I understand, like.
00:30:44:14 – 00:30:46:29
Keelin
What.
00:30:46:34 – 00:30:57:31
Agent Palmer
Do you find the content creation part enjoyable or is it the means to an end? Like, I have all these thoughts and that’s the only way to get them out.
00:30:57:36 – 00:30:58:55
Keelin
It’s a little bit of both.
00:30:59:00 – 00:31:00:27
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:31:00:32 – 00:31:22:30
Keelin
So for a little bit of context, I am a Buffalo native, and also my mom works at an elementary school, so this month was really rough for me. Just in general. Yes. And that was a toll on my content creation, because, you know, I still have to go to work and actually do my job so I can do pay rent.
00:31:22:33 – 00:31:45:19
Keelin
Sure. Live and do this. So the content creation, I do enjoy it. I dabble in photography, self-taught, completely dabble in photography. I dabble in all of these things. I think I lean a little bit more towards the means to an end. Okay? Or an end to the means. Means to an end? Yes. Mean to an end.
00:31:45:24 – 00:31:45:49
Agent Palmer
All of it.
00:31:45:58 – 00:32:06:36
Keelin
Yeah. But I enjoy the writing. I really do enjoy the writing and the connections that I’m making. And also just the overall. I like thinking about things in a critical way, okay? And I like thinking about art critically. So that’s where that is.
00:32:06:40 – 00:32:15:29
Agent Palmer
Okay. So I’m going to go out on the limb and say the question you get most often is, why don’t you start your own podcast?
00:32:15:38 – 00:32:38:18
Keelin
Well, I am kind of working on that. I do want to get a channel, I would say a channel or a stream out there of my reviews, because part of me thinks it’s a little silly that I’m reviewing podcasts, but I’m not in a podcast player for you to dip into and say, oh, maybe I like that one.
00:32:38:23 – 00:32:48:27
Keelin
I don’t really, I don’t want to make them long. I’m literally I literally my kind of thought process is literally taking my reviews and editing them for me to speak them out.
00:32:48:29 – 00:32:49:25
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:32:49:30 – 00:33:20:34
Keelin
And starting there, I’ve had 1,000,001 ideas for podcasts, but part of that was a technology barrier, as I’m sitting here with my microphone now, at one point it was a technology barrier because I live with a live audio engineer. And so when I told him I was thinking about getting a Yeti microphone, he went and bought me my Shure Mv7 for Christmas.
00:33:20:38 – 00:33:45:12
Keelin
Yeah. And so that’s been a slow going of me getting the technology to have a quality that I will be proud of. Yes. And then I don’t want to put something out that the content level isn’t something I’m going to be proud of, or I feel comfortable and confident with.
00:33:45:17 – 00:34:18:12
Agent Palmer
So I can tell you two stories. One, this show about two years old, two and a half, I don’t know, whatever, but I’ve been in podcasting for like 8 or 9 years. Both as a probably ten years as a fan and listener and then as a frequent guest and, quote unquote, proxy caster. And then as a producer behind the scenes on other shows.
00:34:18:16 – 00:34:50:53
Agent Palmer
And so I always got, well, when are you going to do your own show? When I’m ready. Like when I have an idea that I’m willing to go with and want to do. And, you know, I finally coalesced into this idea which 70 whatever episodes in, I’ve morphed as a host, I think, of course I did. But the format that I settled on after years of hemming and hawing and doing other people’s shows is essentially the same format.
00:34:50:53 – 00:35:31:14
Agent Palmer
Yeah, my my cold open is the same. I I’m in love with my cold open because it’s quick, it’s easy. It incorporates the blog, which I do on a regular more whatever. And it also tells you what you’re getting into. And yet my intros and my outros have evolved again as I would as a host, but to the idea of still thinking about what’s next with the barrier of entry being technology, I thought about taking all of my book reviews, which at this point has to be at least a third of every blog post on my site right now.
00:35:31:19 – 00:35:49:24
Agent Palmer
It didn’t it didn’t start out that way. And then it was about half, and then it was a little more than half, and now it’s about half. I have a lot of book reviews, and I think the book reviews are generally speaking, I try and do when it’s fiction spoiler free, because it’s always somebody’s first time when it’s nonfiction.
00:35:49:28 – 00:36:32:15
Agent Palmer
All right. Like, you know, I recently read a book about the 1966 World Series. I. I’m not spoiling the end. Okay? That’s it’s really hard to do, so. Fine. But I, I’ve toyed with the idea of being a talking head and just taking these reviews. I’ve already done scripting them a little bit more to my voice, obviously my writing voice and my speaking voice is slightly different, and I understand that maybe condensing them, I don’t know, sometimes they get long winded so I can edit myself and then doing it is it, you know, here’s the book, because I think I physically own, I don’t know, 90% of all the books I’ve ever read.
00:36:32:20 – 00:36:55:51
Agent Palmer
For me, video is the issue because I’m I love audio only because I get to edit and I get to slice and dice as I as I want. You can’t do that in video. You need two cameras to do that with video. Really? So you can cut to something, and cover yourself. I’ve still toyed with that.
00:36:55:51 – 00:37:30:34
Agent Palmer
I got as close as recording one, like redoing a review into a script and then recording it. And then it’s gone away, and the idea comes and goes, but I’m already. And this is where my thought process is probably similar to yours. I’m already doing a blog and a podcast, a video, while I am already using the skills in the set up from my podcast and the text from my blog, it’s another there thing.
00:37:30:34 – 00:37:57:37
Agent Palmer
And it’s not just, throw away another thing. You still want that quality level. I wouldn’t want it to be like, well, my blog is really quality and my podcast I make is quality is humanly possible. My video there like, no, no, that’s that’s not what we’re building. And so I, I’m with you almost because it’s like, yeah, you’ve already done this work.
00:37:57:37 – 00:38:02:02
Agent Palmer
Let’s make it work again. But it’s not that simple.
00:38:02:07 – 00:38:28:42
Keelin
It’s it’s really not. Especially because I did take an audio design class in college. It was okay, I was okay, I can definitely get through it. But I have, at least personally, I feel like I have such a respect for the art form that me sitting there and messing around. And even though I know I’m learning, I know that I’m learning.
00:38:28:42 – 00:38:54:09
Keelin
I know that no one walks or very few people walk into these things with their final product. Yes, there and there, you know, I’ll use the name Dallas Taylor just because I think 20,000Hz is one of the when it comes to audio, one of the best produced podcast I’ve ever listened to. Dallas Taylor isn’t just a podcaster or someone that was like, I really like sound.
00:38:54:09 – 00:39:17:37
Keelin
I do sound design. No, he has he has a whole audio company. Yeah. And I have such a respect for that. And I know that I’m probably never going to be that way. I have messed up hearing in one of my ears from an unfortunate, incident with my glasses arm at one point. Oh, no. Yes, you can imagine where that ended up.
00:39:17:42 – 00:39:44:05
Keelin
So, like, it’s just for me. There’s definitely that fear of I’m not going to be able to do this as well as I’d like to. And then there’s also the fact of, while I do know people, I don’t have the money to pay for a jingle or someone to design me the in in the out audio, in a way, I just I’m not there yet.
00:39:44:19 – 00:40:21:02
Keelin
I’m getting there. I’m definitely getting there, but I’m just not there yet. And I’m also perfectly okay with that because I’m just going to I’m going to mess around as I can when I can and figure it out. And like I said, I’ll hopefully my goals loosely by the end of the summer. To have a basic magpie podcast where you can pump it into your ears, rather than going to my blog and reading it, you can just have it in your feeds and be like, oh, I was thinking about listening to the solar podcast because I’ve been listening to that a lot.
00:40:21:02 – 00:40:26:28
Keelin
I’ve been listening to solar, or I’ve been thinking about listening to solar. What is Keelin? Think about it.
00:40:26:33 – 00:41:04:51
Agent Palmer
I mean, I will say it also is about I mean, it goes back to how did we get here? I never thought that running sound for middle and high school theater and play productions. And even in college and then in high school, my slight, small dabbling in recording friends bands would never amount to anything like that. Like, so when I get back into podcasting and I sit down to do this for the first time for The Palmer Files episode one.
00:41:04:56 – 00:41:29:10
Agent Palmer
I’m not scared of a board. I mean, yeah, I’m decades removed from having done it, but like, I know what everything does and I’ve used a board that’s bigger than my desk, right? Like. And I mean, shock of shocks. If you had told me right when I leave college, which was the last time I had ever touched a board, you’re going to do this again.
00:41:29:15 – 00:41:51:23
Agent Palmer
But it’s not going to be radio. I’d be like, what are you talking about? What do you mean? There’s. Because I mean, that was 2004. So yeah, you know, you’re getting inklings of some internet audio. I wouldn’t say you’ve got podcasting yet. I mean, maybe as a concept, but not as a you know, industry. We are where we are.
00:41:51:23 – 00:42:10:40
Agent Palmer
We end up where we end up. Yeah. Would it have been great to capitalize on some of the other shows that I was, it turned a lot guesting on so that they were live and running and I could cross-promote and all that stuff. Sure. But would this show be this? Would I still be, you know, who knows?
00:42:10:40 – 00:42:50:29
Agent Palmer
But we get to hear and that’s fine. I, I, I still think that we need more of you. I think we need more critical thing. I’m. I think because I’m in it. And this is my only concern for you of starting your own because I’m in it. I can’t do it critically. I might be able to critically, review, big podcast, a PBS or, Spotify exclusive, but like an indie, I don’t know if I could because, like, if it’s one voice, if it’s for voices, like, I know what that’s like.
00:42:50:29 – 00:43:15:35
Agent Palmer
I’ve produced shows with big personalities, and I know that in order to make it sound all good on mic, sometimes people got to check their egos and sometimes they don’t. And I know what it’s like to be editing at 1:00 Am and, I think once you get in the weeds in creation, it’s a little bit harder to check that the door and not be like, yeah, of course you’ll hear a car go by.
00:43:15:35 – 00:43:33:28
Agent Palmer
In some of my episodes. The guest was saying something great. I can’t cut it out on the guest side. I have no control over that. This is entirely remote, and, I’m more forgiving of that. Whereas I think a real critique would be sound quality’s okay.
00:43:33:37 – 00:44:00:26
Keelin
Well, I I’ve dabbled with that because I do I do want as a critic, I want to support indie content creators and indie podcasts. I’m I think they’re very important. And I think there’s an ecosystem there for them in the industry, whether, you know, for whatever reason, you know, we have indie films, we have indie music. Why don’t we have indie podcasters?
00:44:00:34 – 00:44:15:24
Keelin
Yeah, they need they need to exist, in my opinion. And so there’s definitely some podcasts that I’ve listened to that are indie that I’m like, you know, I don’t think you’re ready for me to review. I don’t tell them that.
00:44:15:29 – 00:44:28:34
Agent Palmer
Why not? I mean, I, I mean, devil’s advocate here, like, you could say. I think you’re a few more episodes away or, like, I think you’re still developing. I mean, that’s good feedback for them to have that they’re not going to get from anyone else.
00:44:28:39 – 00:44:32:42
Keelin
Oh, absolutely. I, I feel a little weird doing that cold.
00:44:32:47 – 00:44:33:30
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:44:33:35 – 00:44:54:52
Keelin
So that’s the only that’s like my very ear right now is that I feel a little weird doing it cold, but I’ve definitely listened to some indie podcasts that I enjoy. But if I were to be critical about them on my blog and even if I say I really like this podcast, they’re going to see audio quality is distracting.
00:44:54:52 – 00:45:15:38
Keelin
Yeah, you’re going to see that rather, in my opinion, rather than you’re going in a really great direction or your writing is really great, your content like you’re getting there. And that’s something that I’m, I try and be very conscientious about that. When I am reviewing an indie podcast, I can’t think of one.
00:45:15:38 – 00:45:22:25
Agent Palmer
No, I don’t want you to call anybody out. But I will tell you. Yeah, it it’s a double edged audio quality, double edged sword because.
00:45:22:25 – 00:45:22:55
Keelin
Oh, absolutely.
00:45:22:55 – 00:45:50:44
Agent Palmer
My parents, who for better or worse, listen, my father listens to every episode. My mother my mother is a visual person. I’m amazed she gets through about half of these. But they I don’t know if this is just because they genuinely like the show or they’re trying to support me. They tell other people about the show and what I hear from other people is audio quality professional.
00:45:50:49 – 00:46:15:56
Agent Palmer
I’ll be honest, that doesn’t tell me like it. You know, whereas people might read great content, but audio quality is distracting for me. Would you say the audio quality is professional? What I hear is you didn’t like the show. You know, so like so yeah, you know, it it okay. It’s the audio quality not distracting. But clearly you didn’t listen to the whole look.
00:46:15:56 – 00:46:26:49
Agent Palmer
And I know longform is not for everyone, but, Yeah, nothing like that. That’s that’s what you have. It sounded good. Oh. Thanks.
00:46:26:51 – 00:46:34:17
Keelin
Yeah, that’s. It is a double edged sword. And it’s definitely something that I think critics need to be aware of.
00:46:34:22 – 00:46:34:50
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:46:34:54 – 00:46:53:50
Keelin
And how they talk about it. How I talk about it. You know, I try to be careful. And I also I’m like, if I don’t like it, I’m not going to write about it, really. I it’s just there is that cultural thing that we have sometimes about like liking to hate something.
00:46:53:54 – 00:46:54:54
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:46:54:59 – 00:47:07:27
Keelin
Getting enjoyment out of the that and yes, I do partake. Obviously I’m a human but I’m not going to do that publicly.
00:47:07:42 – 00:47:09:30
Agent Palmer
Yeah. You don’t want to commit that to work.
00:47:09:33 – 00:47:33:41
Keelin
It’s I’m going to make fun of Twilight with my friends or, you know, something like a cultural thing like that. I’ll make fun of Twilight. I’ll make fun of this, that, or the other thing in a, you know, interpersonal way. Yeah, but not I’m not going to sit here and like, I it’s that whole I don’t want to feed into the bad press is still press idea.
00:47:33:55 – 00:47:54:21
Agent Palmer
No, I mean that makes sense. I, I, I guess I should probably start saying that I’ve written one negative book review, but I’ve written two negative reviews because I wrote a post about hate watching the first ten episodes of Riverdale. When it first started and I got through ten and I went, I can’t do any more.
00:47:54:21 – 00:48:15:50
Agent Palmer
And then I wrote about it and this is what. So I’ve got two negative reviews on my, on my site. But, but you know, and I think some of it was for, you know, I was still trying a lot of different things. It was so long ago that I feel like now I’ve grown, I, I wouldn’t even bother spending the time or the energy on it.
00:48:15:54 – 00:48:42:41
Agent Palmer
I think I turned a corner after my, like, negative book review where it’s like, all right, you know what this is permanent. Like, we have the internet Wayback machine. I can take my blog down and people could still find the bad words or like the negative reviews like that screenshot, you know, all this stuff. So when I hit publish, whether it’s this podcast or that blog, I know it’s basically chiseled in stone.
00:48:42:46 – 00:49:08:50
Agent Palmer
Even if I delete it, somebody can find it. Yeah. If there’s two mistakes from a younger blogger, I don’t care like that. I can live with that. I don’t want to feed it. You know, you’re right. Like I and I see because Twitter is the main platform for a community within indie podcasting, you can’t help but see all the other stuff.
00:49:08:50 – 00:49:36:19
Agent Palmer
So you see the 15 articles shitting on something. And like you, I don’t want to feed into that. But I also have to tell you, it’s no secret. Like my one podcast at Maron. And I think the reason it’s my one podcast is because it comes out twice a week. And, you know, I’m still creating and I’m reading like, I can’t read and listen to a podcast.
00:49:36:19 – 00:49:59:07
Agent Palmer
I think everybody who’s a reader understands that. But like, I want to throw my headphones across the room every time I listen to a man episode and I’m like, that was fun. Then I go on Twitter and it’s like some random site, some more reputable than others and still do this. Or like, you’ll never guess what so-and-so said on Maron.
00:49:59:12 – 00:50:23:14
Agent Palmer
Listen to them. It’s a 90. It’s a it’s long form conversation. You’re writing an article about a quote. What are you doing? Like. And yeah, and as a blogger, I don’t want to chase that. I know it’s successful. I know you can get make money, do I? I don’t want to chase that. And I, I get sick to my stomach that that’s some, those hangers on are around in every industry.
00:50:23:19 – 00:50:31:01
Agent Palmer
Yeah. You can’t help it. But just, if you don’t, you know, our mothers told us if you don’t have anything nice to say. Right.
00:50:31:11 – 00:50:53:01
Keelin
That’s basically where I’m. And I’m also coming from someone in the creative industry with this huge creative background. And I’m sitting here, it’s like, I don’t I don’t want someone like, I don’t want to stop someone from doing something that could become great just because they’re not there yet.
00:50:53:01 – 00:51:12:21
Agent Palmer
It’s the one thing that differentiates podcasting from all the other things. When we watch a movie, it’s done. Maybe it doesn’t get a sequel, but the movie’s done. When you read a book, the book’s been published. When you watch a television series. I mean, for the most part, by the time it comes to air, they’ve made 12 whatever.
00:51:12:22 – 00:51:29:28
Agent Palmer
Right. Podcast. Like, it’s happening now. Like, as you listening, they’re working on the next episode, the next series, the next season, whatever. Do you feel that burden every time, or is it just with Indies?
00:51:29:33 – 00:51:50:30
Keelin
I feel it more with Indies. And I’ll give the caveat of indie, too. I don’t want to say it’s a lot easier. How do I want to phrase this? To me, it’s a little bit more obvious when it’s an indie that is someone who has the background.
00:51:50:35 – 00:51:51:24
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:51:51:29 – 00:52:03:57
Keelin
I’ll say let’s talk about aftershock for a hot second, which got some flak for being considered an indie podcast, which it was, but it’s an indie podcast that had what?
00:52:04:11 – 00:52:28:39
Agent Palmer
Well, they’ve got radio cred, really. I mean, that’s the other thing. Like technically and I this is my argument. Marin’s an independent. It’s him and Brendan, right. That’s two people. They they’ve never signed on to a major label or platform or whatever. Two people. It’s really hard to say. You’re basically discounting their success. Well, they’re successful, so they’re not independent anymore.
00:52:28:39 – 00:52:34:15
Agent Palmer
So yeah. Hold like that’s not right. So where their backgrounds are coming from, that’s.
00:52:34:17 – 00:53:14:03
Keelin
I mean here’s a big one. My favorite murder for a hot second. Yeah. They started as two friends with an entertainment industry background with a background in recording and had the connections to find a great producer for them. And now they’re, they’re they’ve created the their own network out of this podcast that they just started. But, you know, they already had skills that directly siphoned them into a certain to a certain level versus someone that’s like, I like podcasts, I’m going to try it.
00:53:14:10 – 00:53:14:47
Agent Palmer
Yes.
00:53:14:51 – 00:53:24:33
Keelin
And I think it’s relatively easy to tell those people apart, or at least in my eyes, it no.
00:53:24:38 – 00:53:31:06
Agent Palmer
No, I yeah, I, I think it’s generally speaking we can tell those things apart. Yeah fairly.
00:53:31:17 – 00:53:55:15
Keelin
Easily. And it’s one of those things that it’s not saying that they can’t get to a certain level, because they definitely can. Or in some cases there are podcasts that I just enjoy, and I don’t want them to necessarily get that super high quality. I just like them the way they are, you know? And those ones are like the fun, I would say.
00:53:55:15 – 00:54:28:09
Keelin
Like the fun. I don’t to say kitschy, but like the audio dramas of people are just starting to figure out audio drama. There’s something kind of beautiful in those like early stages that I very much enjoy, because it’s fun and you can feel that coming out in that like experimentation, I would say. And that development and that growth.
00:54:28:13 – 00:54:51:15
Agent Palmer
I have to tell you, I knew that podcasting was special and different, but articulating it towards the end with Keelin, with the idea that and I’ll paraphrase for the both of us, since I have also written about podcasts, we don’t want to stop someone who’s in the process of making something just because it isn’t great yet. I’ve known it all along, but I’ve never had it so succinctly put.
00:54:51:20 – 00:55:17:46
Agent Palmer
Podcasts as a medium are different because even the larger ones you are listening and giving feedback to a completed episode. Well, potentially the next or soon to be future episode is currently being worked on. It’s so unique. It’s why it’s a responsibility that Keelin feels as a critical reviewer is so heavy. And now it’s occurred to me that that’s why I’m so defensive about podcasters.
00:55:17:57 – 00:55:48:28
Agent Palmer
I want to protect them, all of them, even if I don’t listen or even like their show review. Bombing happens in our society. It’s sad and has an agenda that is often unrelated to the content. Usually it’s marginally related at best, but it’s horrible. However, it often happens to movies that are completed, TV series that are already produced, and recently it’s been happening to minority hosted or focused podcasts, which is dangerous.
00:55:48:33 – 00:56:09:39
Agent Palmer
Is every show great? No. Do they all need to be know? Does that mean the just good ones should stop producing? Not at all. I enjoy this podcast. It is a good podcast. I know what it would take to become a great one, at least in my eyes, and probably in the eyes of a critical reviewer like Keelin.
00:56:09:44 – 00:56:38:20
Agent Palmer
But I don’t necessarily want to produce that show. This show is fun. The process of making this show is fun. That’s one very important piece of the puzzle that makes this a good podcast, that it’s fun. Take that away. And well, I just don’t want to imagine what that would be like. So since you’re still here, review your favorite podcast on your app of choice.
00:56:38:25 – 00:57:02:19
Agent Palmer
Tell your favorite podcaster that you like them on Twitter or Discord or whatever platform that they use that you are on. Let them know that their time and energy has produced something that has had an impact on you. For certain shows, even the smallest kind note can save the burn from a review bombing. All it takes is just some kindness.
00:57:02:23 – 00:57:24:44
Agent Palmer
Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 75. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can tweet me at Agent Palmer, my guest Keelin at I Am Killing It that I am Killing it.
00:57:24:48 – 00:57:44:14
Agent Palmer
And this show at The Palmer Files. You can find more information about Keelin and read her reviews at mentally a magpie.com, and you can connect with Keelin on Instagram or TikTok, both at the I am killing It, just like her Twitter email can be sent to this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things.
00:57:44:14 – 00:57:57:09
Agent Palmer
Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:57:57:14 – 00:58:04:59
Unknown
And you?
00:58:05:03 – 00:58:27:33
Unknown
Will be.
00:58:27:37 – 00:58:33:20
Unknown
She.
00:58:33:24 – 00:58:36:09
Agent Palmer
All right. Keelin, do you have one final question for me?
00:58:36:14 – 00:58:41:21
Keelin
Where do you want to see critical reviews go?
00:58:41:26 – 00:59:33:38
Agent Palmer
I, I think this is very grandiose, but I think I’d like to see them culminate in a decade or two in the podcast Grammys or podcast Emmys, because right now we’ve got 50 billion different, like everybody talks about. Oh, there’s a podcast born every minute. And yeah, but usually one dies every minute too. But the other problem is a fraction of those or fractionally, we also have so many awards, so many awards and even, the Grammys now, and especially the Oscars celebrate independent film and independent music and, I, I would like to see podcasting get to a point where there’s just one podcast award that means.
00:59:33:42 – 01:00:01:56
Agent Palmer
So right now we have a few that could get their. But they’re very industry heavy and they’re not independent, critically reviewed things. And they’re much more look, I’m not saying the Emmys and the Grammys aren’t pay to play. They very much are. But I think that those, bodies such as they are, still take the time to bring in the independents because that’s how you grow.
01:00:01:56 – 01:00:27:58
Agent Palmer
Otherwise you end up with the same three directors all the time, the same five actors. Right? I would like to get to a point where there’s a, like a legit critical board that can find things that can’t normally be found, like I and I, I will put this on myself because it just makes the most sense to people can pick on me and I I’m.
01:00:28:03 – 01:00:50:48
Agent Palmer
That’s fine. I’ve been the butt of jokes for like 20 years now. I’m the straight man in every group I’ve ever been a part of. But, I do not think I’m the next Marc Maron, though it is very clear to me that when people in podcasting don’t know how to describe my show, they go, oh, he’s kind of like Maron.
01:00:50:53 – 01:01:19:30
Agent Palmer
He’s a white guy with a beard that talks too long, right? Like I like it. I understand the comparison. I, I don’t think I’m there. But I also think that without, an independent board, someone like me or whoever the next X, you know, pick your favorite podcaster is they retire without an independent thing if it just stays as it is.
01:01:19:30 – 01:01:48:18
Agent Palmer
Pay to play. You don’t find me. I’m never paying for an award. And maybe because we’ve had this conversation or because just we interacted on Twitter and you happened to be like, I’ll check out his show. Maybe as a critic, because most critics do interact on the podcast. Maybe you check out a show that you normally wouldn’t and that that gets a special recognition or a nomination even though it doesn’t win or whatever.
01:01:48:18 – 01:02:12:59
Agent Palmer
And it I think generally speaking, I would like to see that as just culminating in one thing. Right? Because right now we have 7 or 8. You know, I help on occasion, consult with other podcasts. And, you know, especially the ones where people have money to spend and they go, oh, well, there’s these seven different awards. Which one should we go for?
01:02:13:01 – 01:02:41:25
Agent Palmer
It’s like, well, to me, you know, if you’ve got the money and you’ve got enough of a fan base, you can win any award you want. And and I don’t see it as a critical achievement. And I would like to see awards become a critical achievement. And that’s not to say that there aren’t some. I don’t know about all of them, but right now, the ones that do kind of come across my feed don’t seem to be critical at all.
01:02:41:26 – 01:02:55:02
Agent Palmer
They all seem to be pay to play, popularity contests. And I, I just, I would like to see the little guy get a shot. You didn’t have to win. But I’d like to see him get a shot.
01:02:55:06 – 01:03:43:54
Keelin
Yeah, I would agree with you to a certain point. Because I think the whole thing with the Oscars, the Grammys, the Tonys, whatever that we forget because they’re so heavily publicized. Yeah. Is that every industry has those 17 million awards and, you know, I personally know Tony voters, multiple Tony voters and I it’s just one of those things that I think there will be one that comes out and it will probably still be paid to play to certain degree, because the Tonys are mostly just Broadway.
01:03:43:59 – 01:04:17:03
Keelin
Yeah. And regional theater is not taking this seriously because it’s not Broadway, and it hasn’t necessarily won a Tony, but you can get just as quality of productions in regional theater or higher quality, depending on how you feel about it. But the Tonys and Broadway get the Hugh Jackman’s The and those types of people that have the names on them, just like the Oscars kind of do, even when there is those other little awards.
01:04:17:03 – 01:04:57:27
Keelin
So I think, I think it’ll get there. I think we’ll have the big publicized big public thing. I think what’s going to be the critical thing is just the growth of the criticism and having it be people like me who I’m not a podcaster yet. I’m not a podcaster. But I can look at these things critically and know the art and have these opinions, but not be so knee deep into it or neck deep into it.
01:04:57:32 – 01:05:23:32
Keelin
You know, there’s a balance and there will be a balance. Yeah. And I do think to a certain point, not necessarily I don’t think it’s the end all be all in any way, shape or form. But I think there is a certain value to pay to play as a benchmark or a goal for someone to say, I want to get to the point where I can pay to play, even if it’s not like I.
01:05:23:37 – 01:05:49:55
Keelin
I, I see a small portion of value there for goal setting. And also just I hate the gatekeeping aspect of it, but how do you not to a certain degree have some type of gatekeeping? Because, you know, I’ll go back to Tony because I’m in the industry, but like the Tonys have very specific parameters. There needs to be podcast awards that also have very specific parameters.
01:05:50:01 – 01:05:55:14
Keelin
I hate the fact that it’s monetary because it feels gross. Yeah.
01:05:55:14 – 01:06:07:33
Agent Palmer
But I, I guess I think the other thing too, is and I maybe I’m a bit spoiled. I live in Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania, where I.
01:06:07:33 – 01:06:08:56
Keelin
Drove through there this weekend.
01:06:09:01 – 01:06:37:22
Agent Palmer
The we have the State Theater that does the Freddie Awards. So we have and look, I understand compared to podcasting, just doing high school theater in, in a specific geographic area means that everybody kind of gets a shot, right? But it also means these I see people get celebrated that wouldn’t in any other place get celebrated.
01:06:37:27 – 01:07:16:00
Agent Palmer
And so I almost just like I guess selfishly I go it would be nice to have a shot because I, I don’t have the aspirations to hit the hit the monetary number to pay to play. But I do have the aspiration that my audio quality and my content will be at that level. And I think that for someone without the monetary, goals, all you have is your content and your audio quality.
01:07:16:05 – 01:07:51:18
Keelin
Oh, absolutely. And so, you know, I think these conversations are important to the industry to figure out what those things are going to be. Yeah. You know, will it be a regional podcast like a Northeast Podcast award? Will it be a new podcast award for podcasts that were just published, or will it be, I don’t know, the talk show, podcast awards, those little things of the more specific narrowing, what are the different ways we can narrow podcasts to help sift through the podcasts that’s born every minute.
01:07:51:18 – 01:08:19:30
Keelin
Come like problem we seem to have because there is a lower barrier of entry. Yeah, to this specific medium versus being an author or movies or music. There’s a far lower barrier of entry. So what are the different ways we can look at podcasts and say, we’re going to narrow this down and be able to take the barrier of entry.
01:08:19:30 – 01:08:24:26
Keelin
That is the monetary pay to play and be able to set that aside.
01:08:24:30 – 01:08:52:55
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, this you’re you’re right. This is just the beginning of the conversation. And I, I don’t assume like, oh, that you and I will be a part of that conversation. But I also think that, the powers that be need to talk to us, even if we’re not in the conversation. When they get to setting the rules, they still need to talk to, like, true independents and and and they also need to talk to the passion people, which is what I’ll call myself.
01:08:52:55 – 01:09:28:28
Agent Palmer
Right? I’m not. Yeah. And just for no other reason than I have a different perspective. Just like you have a different perspective than, say, other people. And I don’t know, we’ll see where it goes, but I’m, I actually cynically have started really enjoying the fact that the podcasts that fail, fail because it’s like, oh, good. Like, I know you’re just clogging up the search and it makes it hard every time there’s one born.
01:09:28:33 – 01:09:52:05
Agent Palmer
But I still think the educated or the veteran podcast listener looks at, well, this guy hasn’t put out an episode in three years versus, oh, this one came out four days ago. I still think once people start getting into it, they become podcast listeners as opposed to fans of a show. These are the small things they start picking up on.
01:09:52:05 – 01:09:59:47
Agent Palmer
And so, you know, if I can keep it rolling, if you start and can keep it rolling again, you know, it’s just keeping it active.
01:09:59:47 – 01:10:08:24
Keelin
And yeah, who knows. I certainly don’t, but I’m hoping better see it.
01:10:08:28 – 01:10:09:17
Agent Palmer
You and me both.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).