Episode 40 features Joel Mengel creator of The Edge of The World Broadcast, a zombie apocalypse podcast that he wrote, created, edited, and produced.
We discuss all of those processes, plus inspirations, working with kids, being proud, not wasting time, and more.
During the episode we cover:
- Who is Delsin Moore?
- Write what you know
- When inspiration strikes
- A Prairie Home Companion
- The recording process
- Editing and directing yourself
- Working with kids
- Sound effects
- Learning by doing
- Episodic vs. binge
- Being proud
- Don’t waste your time
- Respecting the audio medium
- Knowing how it ends
- Storytelling
- And much more…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
The Edge of the World Broadcast
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:24:53
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com ready player two is just as good as Ready Player one. Storytelling is an undead art with the edge of the world broadcast and Lauren story resonated with people across many swaths of life. Trust me, they told me so. This is The Palmer Files, episode 40 with Joel Mengel, creator of The Edge of the world broadcast a zombie apocalypse podcast that he wrote, created, edited, and produced.
00:00:24:57 – 00:01:07:04
Agent Palmer
We discuss all of those processes, plus inspirations, working with kids, being proud, not wasting time, and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:07:09 – 00:01:34:10
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 40th episode is Joel Mengel, creator of the edge of the world broadcast. Joel and I will soon get into the conversation where we discuss the inspirations and origins of The Edge of the world broadcast. But first, in the event you haven’t heard the show, here’s the season one trailer for you.
00:01:34:15 – 00:01:57:45
Delsin Moore
If you can hear this, my name is Delsin Moore. It’s been over three years since the event and the Great Panic three years since they appeared. I have no idea how this number station is still broadcasting or why, and I don’t know how many more of us are left. What I do know is this world is no longer ours and we are an endangered species.
00:01:57:50 – 00:02:12:25
Delsin Moore
There are secrets here that I’ve only just begun to unravel, and I think it might just change everything. I hope you can hear this. Stay safe. The future depends on it.
00:02:12:29 – 00:02:31:54
Agent Palmer
So if you’ve heard the show, you know what it’s all about. And you’re probably as excited for season two as I am. But if you haven’t, that is a taste of what’s in store. Should you be intrigued after the conversation you are about to hear, which contains no spoilers? What it does contain is discussions about creating the project you want to consume.
00:02:31:56 – 00:02:57:01
Agent Palmer
The art of storytelling. Knowing how something ends. How we consume media philosophy, self-teaching a little mutual admiration and much, much more. Before we get going, remember that if you want to discuss the episode as you listen or afterwards, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer. My guest, Joel Mengel at Fuel Neve on Twitter. That’s l nev. His show at Edge World cast.
00:02:57:10 – 00:03:26:15
Agent Palmer
And this show at the Palmer Files. You can find the edge of the world broadcast, as well as Joel’s other show, The Curly Mustache Podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s attempt to stay safe.
00:03:26:20 – 00:03:37:26
Agent Palmer
Joel. Quick question real quick. How different is Delsin? More from Joel. Like, are you the same?
00:03:37:31 – 00:04:08:37
Joel Mengel
Kind of. Kind of. Yeah, pretty much. It’s the same. I took the, the Larry Corea right yourself as the hero at School of Thought when it came to writing that particular character. Which, if you don’t know who Larry career he’s is, he does a fantastic book series called monster Hunter international, and, The Grimoire Chronicles and all his main characters are basically just kind of hyper optimized versions of himself, which I kind of was like, yeah, I would this is how I would act.
00:04:08:39 – 00:04:17:54
Agent Palmer
Well, you write you write what? You know, I mean, that’s the basis for everybody when we start any anything. Right. Like that’s just the start.
00:04:17:59 – 00:04:27:23
Joel Mengel
Yeah. Well, according to my therapist, I really don’t know myself well, but I’m I’m kind of figuring it out as I write this character. In a sense, it’s very strange.
00:04:27:37 – 00:05:02:35
Agent Palmer
So I want to talk about the show. But more important than that, I want to ask you about this show is slightly satirical at times, but you started the Twitter account for this show in 2018, right before the pandemic and before people stormed the Capitol. And in your show, you have a pandemic and people storming the Capitol. So I want to ask, like, how has current events informed the show that you put out for season one?
00:05:02:40 – 00:05:29:20
Joel Mengel
Honestly, I started writing. I actually wrote the first episode in five minutes in 2018. It took me five minutes. I literally and this is gonna sound strange, but I was watching an episode of The Walking Dead. It was the scene where Rick Grimes dies. Quote unquote. Yeah, but I heard the music, and it was one of those things where I just heard the music in my brain just went, that’s that.
00:05:29:20 – 00:05:51:52
Joel Mengel
That hope, that just that music informed the concept of the first episode. And by the end of 2019, I had a basic outline of the story, like I had the full season one okay mapped out. So honestly, nothing about the pandemic or 2020 really influenced the story.
00:05:51:52 – 00:05:58:36
Agent Palmer
So I’m afraid for you to write season two now, right? Like, because if it gets worse, I am so scared for us.
00:05:58:40 – 00:06:24:41
Joel Mengel
I would be too with where the story’s going now. But to be completely honest, though, the original season two would have been infinitely worse. The original outline for season two because it went into like, I don’t mind telling people this one, but the original outline for season two had a very spiritual, supernatural demon aspect to it.
00:06:24:41 – 00:06:25:52
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:06:25:57 – 00:06:29:46
Joel Mengel
And so it’s like, oh, thank God I got rid of that outline. Yet.
00:06:29:51 – 00:06:56:09
Agent Palmer
Well, and and how do you think people like, do people see. And me like I did a little bit. I listen to the whole show right. And I listen to it in two ways, and we’ll get to that in a second. But I did I went and I went like, I, I remember you, I think pitching, something like back like, I don’t know, like a rough draft somewhere back then that I listened to.
00:06:56:11 – 00:07:15:32
Agent Palmer
So I was like, this has been around forever. Like, I don’t remember if it was pre-pandemic or not. And like, in the moment when I didn’t put all that together, I was like, well, this is obvious. This is clearly Joel’s, you know, manifestations of what’s going on now. So we you on the pulse like cause so yeah.
00:07:15:32 – 00:07:26:02
Joel Mengel
It was, it was, it was way ahead in in the sense that like I had an outline for another show that I wanted to do.
00:07:26:04 – 00:07:26:53
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:07:26:58 – 00:07:50:14
Joel Mengel
But I can’t ever seem to get my brother to commit to anything. So I, I was still kicking around an idea. And then I heard that music. And earlier in the day I had watched a documentary on, you know, the Black Plague. And I was like, that’s the most fucking frightening thing I’ve ever seen in my entire life.
00:07:50:19 – 00:08:11:12
Joel Mengel
And then that music and the scenes and it all just sort of my brain just went, well, how about this idea? And instead and then I had to think like, cause, you know, I had to work in the constraints that I had, which is I don’t have anyone else I can really depend on to kind of co-host or be a regular.
00:08:11:14 – 00:08:35:02
Joel Mengel
Yeah. At the time I didn’t. So I was like, how would I tell this story? And then there’s another show that I a podcast that I absolutely love. And if you haven’t listened to it, yeah, you and your listeners absolutely should. It’s called King Falls Am okay. And that kind of set up the concept of a broadcast, okay.
00:08:35:07 – 00:08:48:45
Joel Mengel
Instead of telling it from, I guess, like, a narrative. Yeah. I wanted to give it a unique, narrative approach that I could work with, with what I have, what I’m capable of being able to get to immediately.
00:08:48:45 – 00:09:25:57
Agent Palmer
And you this is written wholly by you. And. And that’s a process I understand, like I understand sitting down in writing. I’ve done two solo episodes to this podcast, and I have a couple more planned, and I, I push them off as much as possible. Joel, you you were the voice in some of these episodes. Do you not go crazy like just trying to get the lines out properly and then directing yourself and then having an hour of you to listen to, going like, oh, I’m why couldn’t I do it this way?
00:09:26:02 – 00:10:09:03
Joel Mengel
This is going to sound incredibly vain on my part, but not for season one, okay? Because 2019, it was all just me trying to. I had the first story, all right. I knew where it was going, and I knew I know where the story will end. I know exactly how the story’s going to end. But for almost all of 2019, I’m going through all different music in my head until like my walk, my my MP3 player is just playing an instrumental of different styles and like once it hits in my head, I’ll replay the episode before I even write it down in my brain.
00:10:09:03 – 00:10:25:27
Joel Mengel
So I know exactly how I kind of want to hit it vocally, to kind of match the emotion that that song, which I can’t use. But I want to evoke that emotion. Yeah, in what I say with the music, that how it evoked it in me.
00:10:25:32 – 00:10:51:16
Agent Palmer
And is it easy to get, I like I have a hard time with the solo episodes, right? Like, I do an intro for this show and an outro, and that’s at total at most seven minutes. And I have a hard time because it’s me I can edit this conversation we’re having right now, no problem. But just me and I’m I’m at a loss and you’re doing it dramatically.
00:10:51:16 – 00:10:56:14
Agent Palmer
So you probably do. You give yourself multiple takes, like, what’s it like being your own director?
00:10:56:18 – 00:11:17:26
Joel Mengel
You know what? Honestly, I think it goes back to what I said earlier. I’ve had so much time, okay, to to work on season one that I honestly think I’m going to have that problem in season two, because I’m under such a time crunch now to meet a deadline that I set for myself that I’m going to have the problem.
00:11:17:26 – 00:11:40:16
Joel Mengel
You’re talking about. But I’ve worked, you know, had this I’ve been kind of gestating it for so long that I knowing like, I’ll give myself 2 or 3 if I don’t feel like I hit it right. Okay. But most of the time I kind of. Again, this sounds vain, but I kind of do the I’ve kind of done the Alanis Morissette trick, which is I kind of one take it nice.
00:11:40:16 – 00:12:01:58
Agent Palmer
Well, hey, hey, why not? Like, if I can, I do like, if I mess up, depending on where I mess up, I’ll just do the whole thing over. Like, yeah. Yet four minutes that I have to do over or whatever, but like, it just flows better, right? Because that’s, you know, you want Delson to be as authentic as possible.
00:12:02:13 – 00:12:02:36
Joel Mengel
Yeah.
00:12:02:50 – 00:12:32:49
Agent Palmer
So and look, I have to applaud your writing like that because the pop culture like the little references and I feel like you’re writing to me. Right. Like the, the fact that you mentioned that Gwar played music at a lower volume than this, like, just viscerally. I was like, that’s for me. Like, I, I get that joke, like, I’m the guy who has four Gwar voices in my basement.
00:12:32:54 – 00:12:36:23
Joel Mengel
No kidding. Like, like it’s like.
00:12:36:28 – 00:12:57:34
Agent Palmer
I it’s just it’s just, you know, I and and by the way, I, my brain goes in other places too. Like, he throws the coffee mug after finding all the coffee and, for a moment, you had the great sound effect of it’s shattering. And for a moment my head went, oh my God, is this like the glasses in the Twilight Zone?
00:12:57:34 – 00:13:04:28
Agent Palmer
Like there was time I was like, you found all this coffee and now there’s no mug. Like, like there was.
00:13:04:33 – 00:13:19:05
Joel Mengel
I wish I had thought of that. I’m not gonna lie. I wish that thought of that. But, the more I got to thinking about it, I kind of go back to your first question. There’s a lot of my dad in the character as well.
00:13:19:07 – 00:13:19:47
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:13:19:52 – 00:13:48:42
Joel Mengel
There are little phrases. Little, just little phrases and and way certain things are said that I, I definitely lifted that from my father because he also inspired me a long time ago, right before he passed away. Like just he, you know, just told me like, don’t fucking waste your time. That’s like one of his last words to me was, just don’t waste your fucking time.
00:13:48:47 – 00:13:55:41
Joel Mengel
So I like to include little phrases of him, just kind of like, hey, pops, he. I’m doing it. Yet.
00:13:55:46 – 00:14:08:43
Agent Palmer
How many ideas like this did you have beforehand that you never like? What was that the impetus? Was that like, okay, well, now I have to like, have you been toying with little creative endeavors for forever?
00:14:08:43 – 00:14:44:38
Joel Mengel
I guess I have toyed with YouTube channels. I still think the movie review shows are still on YouTube. I think, which is just embarrassing to watch fat Joel in front of a screen talking smack about like The Happening. I think it was. But, you know, just little things like that. But I’ve always had, I’ve always wanted to do because going back to when I was a little kid, I think maybe nine, 8 or 9 Sunday nights after church, 9 p.m. NPR radio.
00:14:44:42 – 00:15:05:47
Joel Mengel
Underneath my blanket, Chicago, Illinois radio station is old time radio classics from when, you know, for two hours. Wow. So I, I would listen to, you know, like The Shadow, The Green Hornet. The guy what’s the name of the character from The Maltese Falcon? Oh, Damn. No.
00:15:05:52 – 00:15:08:36
Agent Palmer
I’m not going to get it either. That’s fine, but I.
00:15:08:41 – 00:15:18:01
Joel Mengel
Don’t, detectives. But that that’s what really set up my love for it and really like to. That’s always been where I’ve kind of wanted to take it.
00:15:18:06 – 00:15:38:07
Agent Palmer
Seeing you. What’s funny is I come from the next generation where I would listen to like Prairie Home Companion, which is spoofing that original. Well, not all the time, but it’s spoofing that stuff, right? Like it’s especially when they did their bits.
00:15:38:12 – 00:15:42:38
Joel Mengel
Women are strong where the women where the women are strong and all the men are good looking. Absolutely.
00:15:42:38 – 00:16:04:05
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No, it’s it’s I mean, that’s where I got my, before. Like, I listen to that before Am radio. Like, that was my that was how I knew NPR. I like that I thought that was all NPR was growing up because that’s all my parents would listen to as far as NPR. When I was around. Right. So like, that was the thing.
00:16:04:09 – 00:16:24:54
Agent Palmer
It’s how I still know who Leo Kottke is. Like, my music tastes are fucking all over the place, but that’s how I know, right? It’s it’s. And on long car rides, we wish we would take the cassettes when that was still a thing. Right. You’d have the Prairie Home Companion on cassette like it was. It was when I.
00:16:24:59 – 00:16:45:17
Agent Palmer
I didn’t talk about this as much. When I did the solo episode about my, my trip to Israel, when I created that part of my pitch in college for that original thing was, I’m going to do A Prairie Home Companion. But like, more modern, right? Like, I, I mean, at the time, this is like early aughts. He’s still doing it.
00:16:45:27 – 00:17:06:11
Agent Palmer
So, like, I don’t know why I was like, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m going to do it better, like, or, you know, cocky college kid. Right. But like, that’s I, I grew up with that stuff like that’s ingrained in me and I, I think, I think some of that stuff when it hit you at the right time, like it never leaves you.
00:17:06:15 – 00:17:27:34
Joel Mengel
No, no, no, I and, A Prairie Home Companion was a big thing with, again, me and my dad. That was kind of our big thing because it was like Sunday afternoon Prairie home slash evening. Prairie Home Companion would come on. So we listened for about an hour and a half, and then the family, mom and dad would drive to church, and we’d have to sit through that and then come home.
00:17:27:34 – 00:17:53:08
Joel Mengel
And then it was the old time. But yeah, Prairie Home Companion was one of those defining kind of, oh, I could do this. Yeah. With a story, because I get, I get. So I got so wrapped up with the drama, you know. And then I would hear them do it. Prairie Home Companion do the comedy aspect. I was like, oh, shit, I could do anything with this.
00:17:53:08 – 00:17:56:12
Joel Mengel
Yeah.
00:17:56:17 – 00:18:11:58
Agent Palmer
It’s it. It’s one of those, I know it was an institution on NPR, but, like, I’ve never heard anybody get the variety aspect of it down in podcast form.
00:18:12:02 – 00:18:51:40
Joel Mengel
No, that. Okay, let’s put aside Garrison Keillor for wildly inappropriate behavior. But he really did manage to capture something from a bygone era and just successfully bring it in that it’s read like, I dare to be honest, I got nine episodes in season one. There are about a region. There was originally 12 where I really did try and include a lot of the comedy, and there is one episode that will never see the light of day where it is kind of a musical.
00:18:51:45 – 00:19:02:46
Joel Mengel
Okay, where where I have friends of mine who are doing a version of that show, singing the music and doing the doing the dumb jokes that just are perfect.
00:19:02:51 – 00:19:03:24
Agent Palmer
And and.
00:19:03:24 – 00:19:04:53
Joel Mengel
It’s never be really it’s.
00:19:04:53 – 00:19:23:16
Agent Palmer
The over-the-top sound effects too, like it’s not subtle. It’s like where somebody walks in the room, like we’re hitting blocks because we want it to be like the the, the like, I don’t know, hardest hallway floor and the tallest heels. And she walked into the room.
00:19:23:20 – 00:19:27:09
Joel Mengel
Like click clack clack clack. Yeah.
00:19:27:14 – 00:19:43:29
Agent Palmer
But oh man. Oh well I mean that, that’s that’s a good part of it. What about the writing. Right. Because obviously that’s an inspiration for doing this and choosing this medium. But where does the writing come from. Were you always a writer?
00:19:43:34 – 00:20:12:22
Joel Mengel
I well, yes and no. When I was younger, I would write like, I would take Dracula, you know, like the old Bram Stoker’s Dracula. And then I would, I would literally rewrite it page for page as a kid. And then around the third page, I would just start coming up with new stuff. So, you know, it originally starts in like chapter 23 where Dracula’s stalking Mina or whatever, right?
00:20:12:22 – 00:20:36:46
Joel Mengel
And then around the third page, I just started putting my own ideas where Mina was, mutant, and she was friends with Charles Xavier. And, okay, you just kind of went from there. I always like taking something known and then kind of turning it and giving it my own little touch to it. Because everyone knows The Walking Dead, everyone knows the post-apocalypse landscape.
00:20:36:51 – 00:20:58:00
Joel Mengel
It’s it’s a well tread medium in, in storytelling. I just kind of was like I wanted to take all my favorite aspects and then put it in there and then really add me, for lack of a better term, into the story and create something that I would want to listen to.
00:20:58:04 – 00:21:20:24
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah, I it’s I, that’s why I do this show. Like, I like I, you create the show you want to hear, right? Like that’s that’s what you do. But we’ve covered the writing. We’ve covered some of the acting. Did you always have sound engineer chops like that? Your show is mixed, like, almost professionally.
00:21:20:24 – 00:21:43:51
Joel Mengel
Like it is. It is a pure gamble. It it it is amazing what you can learn on YouTube. I spent like four months just because all I have access to is free program. Sure. So I literally went through there and I was just typing in how to edit music in audacity, and then I would just watch it and take notes and then just experiment.
00:21:43:56 – 00:21:49:07
Agent Palmer
So, but, but do you have a a technical prowess from beforehand?
00:21:49:12 – 00:22:21:22
Joel Mengel
No. Absolutely not. I have no training, no real experience with audio, editing other than my old past podcasts where I would just, you know, edit out the ums and the, you know, the big breaks between speaking. That’s it. That’s the extent of my training. It was a lot of that’s a good 3 to 4 months where I am just watching YouTube videos and taking notes and then practicing whenever the kids fell asleep.
00:22:21:27 – 00:22:42:12
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, that’s I, I, I’m, I’m kind of jealous because like, I, I have such I try my best to make this sound as, as, as professional as possible. I’m, I’m aiming for people to think that I’m not a one man operation using your free audacity software like you.
00:22:42:17 – 00:23:06:50
Joel Mengel
I’m not gonna lie, I genuinely thought I started listening to you a while back. I genuinely thought, man, this guy, whoever’s doing it has got those the levels, because I was just learning the term. So I was like, yeah, the levels on it are great. And yeah, no, he’s that echo is in the background reduced and the sound is just clearing.
00:23:06:55 – 00:23:12:12
Joel Mengel
Wow. Whoever the hell I need to ask him who he hired and if it’s affordable.
00:23:12:17 – 00:23:41:43
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No, I well this is where and we, we, we talk about, like, our life experiences that have led us here. Like all of my, experience before this podcast led me to everything I know. Right. Like Bill Sweeney, I love him, but the Wicked Theory podcast always had a volume problem. It was like bar none for like, I don’t know, 75 of the 200 episodes he released always had a tweet.
00:23:41:43 – 00:24:02:58
Agent Palmer
It’s like somebody’s saying it’s it’s Bill. It’s it’s too low. It’s too low, bill. Right. So so the first thing I did on my first episode was I and I swear this is exactly what I did. I exported it and I put it into Google Chrome, because we all know Google Chrome works as a media player of all kinds.
00:24:02:58 – 00:24:24:35
Agent Palmer
So I was like, I don’t want anything with volume control, like complicated. I just put it in there. And then I downloaded whatever the most recent Marc Maron was, and I went, if I can make sure my levels sound to his, it will be loud enough because he’s a professional, he’s already doing it. And I have then and since then.
00:24:24:39 – 00:24:42:16
Agent Palmer
Like, I think I, I think I can visually figure it out, but I was like, I’m not going to have the problem that Bill has. Like, I’m just not going to do it. I want everybody to hear me loud and clear. And and it’s not a knock on Bill, but it’s just like I learned that from obviously that experience.
00:24:42:20 – 00:25:11:57
Agent Palmer
And the rest of it’s just, I don’t know, dumb luck. Like I figured out processes for like, how to make it sound a little bit better and how to make sure there’s no echo or, you know, I have, like, I have saved IQ like, like manual custom EQ, things that I made for, like, if a Skype call sounds like a Skype call, this is my Skype call filter, right?
00:25:11:57 – 00:25:30:07
Agent Palmer
Like just little things I’ve done over time. And luckily I don’t really need them all the time. But you know, I’m trying to be proud of this. And like, it’s the same thing with your show. Like, we’re trying to do something that, hey, we want to listen to and we want to listen to professional things we don’t want to listen to, and we do probably listen to amateur things.
00:25:30:07 – 00:25:39:56
Agent Palmer
But given the choice, you’d rather, you know, listen to somebody who knows what they’re doing. And oh, yeah, you just try and put that out there. So yeah.
00:25:40:01 – 00:25:55:37
Joel Mengel
And for me also, it was a lot of spite, like because there are two podcasts that I will listen to religiously without question two of the audio drama area, area, and that is King Falls Am and the Magnus archives.
00:25:55:41 – 00:25:56:08
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:25:56:08 – 00:26:15:49
Joel Mengel
And both of them are just the sound on them is so amazing. And I kept, you know, they do live shows where they talk about how they came about making it. And I just it made me so mad that these guys who had no experience in really doing it, were able to put together these shows that were so amazing.
00:26:15:49 – 00:26:30:34
Joel Mengel
And I’m sitting on my ass going like, oh, woe, do you guys go fuck yourself. I’ll show you how. I’ll fuck that. I can do it too, right? Like part of it was, you know, just me. Like I’m going to learn how to do it. And part of it was also just pure fucking spite.
00:26:30:39 – 00:26:44:00
Agent Palmer
Well, but. All right, so real quick back to Delson more. You do make a comment that four years of IT and communications classes have finally paid off. I think that’s been like the first episode or second episode.
00:26:44:05 – 00:26:44:34
Joel Mengel
Yeah.
00:26:44:39 – 00:26:48:04
Agent Palmer
Did you go to school for communication? And it.
00:26:48:09 – 00:26:48:55
Joel Mengel
No.
00:26:49:00 – 00:26:51:53
Agent Palmer
So that’s not autobiographical.
00:26:51:58 – 00:27:09:17
Joel Mengel
No, no, no, that one was. I knew where I was going to go with the story, and I needed to have something that the character that would be able to explain to the because it always bugged me in stories where like the hero just or the main character just, oh, he just, you know, just happened to come together.
00:27:09:17 – 00:27:40:40
Joel Mengel
It’s all just, you know, fate. Let him figure out how to do this seemingly impossible thing. And I wanted just originally I went for, radiology technician. Okay, but no, that one part wasn’t autobiographical. That was in service to the story because I knew where it was going to go, and I needed to have him talking about, you know, his his military and those particular backgrounds because I needed that to serve the story, that that’s where that came from.
00:27:40:40 – 00:28:09:01
Agent Palmer
So let’s talk about the story, because I listened to the eight episodes as they released and episodically, right, like as they came out. So there’s space in between each episode. And then I didn’t listen to the last episode because I was like, I’m going to binge this in one sitting, and then I’ll listen to the final one. I will tell you, like, there are things you pick up on when you listen to it back to back to back to back.
00:28:09:06 – 00:28:31:04
Agent Palmer
And I, I have to ask like, do you did you think about the two different ways people will consume it? Because obviously there are those people that will listen to it when it comes out. But then there’s people like, if somebody listens to this show right here and goes, well, I’ll listen to that. And then they go back like they’re all available so they can listen to it all in one sitting.
00:28:31:04 – 00:28:41:01
Agent Palmer
Did you I don’t know, like have any, you know, this is how I want to split things up or like this is the story. And if you listen to it, that’s fine.
00:28:41:16 – 00:28:58:22
Joel Mengel
Yes and no. I’m not going like I originally went into it going, I’m going to have it be like when I was a kid. It’s going to be once a week. And you know that that that’s all they’re going to get and that’s how they’re going to listen. And at the end of episode nine, you know, I credit my brother.
00:28:58:24 – 00:29:25:23
Joel Mengel
Yeah, as script supervisor because he brought it to my attention. He’s like just, you know, around the second episode, he’s like, just make sure that with each episode you don’t retread the same thing more than 45 seconds. Yeah. You want to have just enough, like at the beginning of any, you know, when you’re binge watching something on Netflix, as at 45 seconds of Previously On.
00:29:25:23 – 00:29:49:19
Joel Mengel
Yeah. And that really made me have to like re change a lot of the elements and how I told the story for season one and what I’m going to have to do for season two. But honestly, when I went into it, I just was thinking about how I do it. And I listen week by week by week. And then, like you said, every week there’s a new listener, there’s someone new who’s never heard it.
00:29:49:19 – 00:29:57:13
Joel Mengel
So I need to be able to connect them smoothly. But I didn’t think of that first time when I when I originally started.
00:29:57:18 – 00:30:01:12
Agent Palmer
But obviously you’re thinking about that going forward for season two.
00:30:01:17 – 00:30:02:35
Joel Mengel
Oh yeah. Okay.
00:30:02:40 – 00:30:33:05
Agent Palmer
Yeah. It’s I’ll I’ll tell you this. It doesn’t change. The story doesn’t change. Right. Like but but you’re you pick up on little details that you get that you like like I know you’re and given the global pandemic like I know your release schedule was a little erratic, but even if it was on a weekly or biweekly schedule, there are things you lose, like little details that will just not stay with you throughout a week or two weeks.
00:30:33:10 – 00:31:00:10
Agent Palmer
And that’s that’s the nature of television. When we grew up, two like, you just don’t remember everything. So there’s like, if anybody’s listening to this, that only listen to it episodically go back and listen to it. Although although although I hesitated at episodes seven and eight because I was like, I was like, these are the only two where he said listener discretion is advised.
00:31:00:10 – 00:31:08:42
Agent Palmer
And the moment you said that, I was like, I remember these. These are the ones I did not forget any piece of at all.
00:31:08:46 – 00:31:20:53
Joel Mengel
Episode seven I have to give my oldest son, Eli, just he blew me away.
00:31:20:53 – 00:31:43:13
Agent Palmer
Okay, well, good, because hold on, before we get there, I want to ask, like, what is it like? I mean, obviously they’re your kids, but like it if you and I like even if I’m not in the same room, like, if you have a part for me, we can sit on Skype and you can direct me. Right. Like and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve talked into a mic before the but working with the with kids just in general.
00:31:43:18 – 00:31:55:18
Agent Palmer
Not the same right. In any level. So what was it like. Like not even what the performance ended up being, but just what was it like getting them to record?
00:31:55:23 – 00:32:15:38
Joel Mengel
You know what, I have to with, like, my children are the most polite hellions you’ll ever meet. And it’s great in the sense that I have two great kids who, when they see I’m excited about something, they immediately want to be a part of it. If I’m excited about a movie, they’re like, can we watch it? They want to watch.
00:32:15:38 – 00:32:35:11
Joel Mengel
They want to see the movies beforehand, even if they don’t understand. Eli and Liam. It was a little difficult because getting them to just talk normal at first, because they loved watching the, the levels go way crazy.
00:32:35:11 – 00:32:38:57
Agent Palmer
Sure. So I want to make it go crazy. I want to make it go even more crazy.
00:32:38:57 – 00:33:02:35
Joel Mengel
Yeah. But honestly, just because I’m terrible. But they were. It was rough at first, but then when I promise to might pay them, like, legitimately. I told the oldest I was like, I will give you a dollar if you just kind of calm and give me 30 minutes. One SpongeBob episode, I’ll give you a dollar and I’ll order pizza tonight.
00:33:02:40 – 00:33:09:27
Joel Mengel
And the Neil, the youngest one, Liam, he just sat on the bed. He wanted that dollar. He wanted that pizza.
00:33:09:31 – 00:33:15:49
Agent Palmer
I mean, just like a true actor. Like why? You know, sometimes I’m in it for the craft and sometimes I’m in it for craft services.
00:33:15:54 – 00:33:27:23
Joel Mengel
Yeah, like, there’s a lot more to that episode I had. I had at least a good 15 minutes worth of stuff, but I realized that I couldn’t get them to do it all.
00:33:27:34 – 00:33:54:21
Agent Palmer
Well, well, I the the editing on that episode is superb because like listening back the second time, I know what I’m I know what it is. So I’m trying to focus on other things and just knowing that. And did you have it in your head that it would be, like jump skips because it it’s it works out in your favor because no matter what they give you, they only need to give you enough before it skips forward again.
00:33:54:36 – 00:34:19:01
Joel Mengel
Yeah, I wrote it with the idea of the jump skips in there. Okay. Because I wanted to kind of put that with a Delson starting to, you know, spoiler. Lose a shit. Yeah. You know, and yeah, I wanted to work that in there because, I remember an old TV show, I think it was, You know what?
00:34:19:05 – 00:34:52:05
Joel Mengel
It’s an old TV show called mantis. Okay. From back in the 90s about a pair of, paraplegic black superhero. Carl Lumby was the the actor’s name who made a, biomechanical suit that made him walk again and turned him into a superhero. And it. But there was one episode that literally when I was maybe 12 or 13, brought me to tears because they would have the guys, like, doing a weird kind of interview and then cut to, they’d make that noise.
00:34:52:05 – 00:35:17:37
Joel Mengel
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. And then show what was happening. Okay. And when I was a kid was real. Nowadays, all rewatching like that is the most cheesy shit I’ve ever seen. But as a kid that that affected me, I was like, and I always wanted to do something like that, and I wanted to do something that was my equivalent to the opening sequence from The Last of Us.
00:35:17:42 – 00:35:18:38
Joel Mengel
Okay, the video game.
00:35:18:38 – 00:35:20:00
Agent Palmer
Yeah. All right.
00:35:20:04 – 00:35:22:12
Joel Mengel
If you haven’t, have you seen that? I’ve played that.
00:35:22:12 – 00:35:40:58
Agent Palmer
Game. I haven’t played it, but I’ve watched a few people on Twitch because I like it’s not the kind of game I’ll play, but if if enough people are talking about it, I kind of like not necessarily hivemind, but I kind of want to know what’s going on. So I watched a few people play it. So I have a general idea.
00:35:41:03 – 00:36:10:43
Joel Mengel
Yeah. The opening sequence was where I got the idea of the boys. Okay, how I wanted to include my boys and what kind of emotion I wanted to evoke, because literally that is the most amazing 15 minutes in the last three minutes of it are you will stop, your jaw will hit the floor because it is it is better than, I’d say, 90% of the movies that come out in Hollywood in the past 5 to 10 years now.
00:36:10:47 – 00:36:22:16
Agent Palmer
Did you always want to involve your kids like, like, but, you know, at the very beginning, like before, it’s really scripted in your head, like when you’re like, I know what my next project’s going to be. Do you want to involve them?
00:36:22:21 – 00:36:42:53
Joel Mengel
Yes. Okay, I absolutely did, I absolutely did. I didn’t know how I was going to do it. Okay. Yeah. But I was like, I have to include them in one way or another because I again, going back to my dad, one of my old podcasts, I got to sit down with him and a buddy of his. So there’s like, I think it’s on my computer somewhere.
00:36:42:53 – 00:37:03:59
Joel Mengel
There’s like three hours of my dad just telling stories, like the time I, a staff sergeant told him to go pick up a injured soldier. And in Nevada, in Death Valley, when they were doing their basic. He called it the world’s most expensive game of laser tag. Okay. And, sent him into a live firing range.
00:37:04:08 – 00:37:05:06
Agent Palmer
Wow.
00:37:05:11 – 00:37:27:25
Joel Mengel
But I wanted I wanted something of that equivalent for me and them. So years, you know, when I’m gone, they have this cool, raw kind of story that they’re going to have forever. You know what I mean? Yeah. Kept in a medium for them that that was it’s three parts that made me want to make that particular episode with them.
00:37:27:36 – 00:37:54:16
Agent Palmer
Okay. All right. So we’re done. You’re done with season one. And I don’t want to talk about season two yet. I want to talk about how do you feel about season one, right. Because you’ve had a chance to release the episodes and see people like me react to certain things. And generally people react. What has that been like as far as you made this thing you loved it for?
00:37:54:23 – 00:38:02:44
Agent Palmer
You know, two years and then, okay, internet, here you go. Like, what was that like?
00:38:02:49 – 00:38:10:54
Joel Mengel
Oh, equal parts terrifying. And one of the most satisfying things I’ve ever done on a personal level.
00:38:10:54 – 00:38:12:01
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:38:12:06 – 00:38:39:04
Joel Mengel
But also relistening to it. Now I can’t really listen to it because I hear all the mistakes I made with the audio and the story and oh, I should have said it like this. Maybe that might have connected better to the next episode, but you know, it’s just little nitpicking things. But honestly, I’m still terrified to promote it because, you know, people are going to listen.
00:38:39:04 – 00:39:01:19
Joel Mengel
But I’ve never been more proud about a personal project than I have with this. Like, because people in like Israel DMing me and just saying this is a great I, you know, one guy is, working on the border between Israel, Israel and Palestine, and he says he listens to it on his iPhone. And it’s like, that is one.
00:39:01:26 – 00:39:05:40
Joel Mengel
I was like, are you fucking kidding me?
00:39:05:45 – 00:39:06:10
Agent Palmer
Are you.
00:39:06:10 – 00:39:14:27
Joel Mengel
Shitting me? You are seconds away from death. Yeah. And you’re listening to my shit. This is the coolest thing ever.
00:39:14:32 – 00:39:50:58
Agent Palmer
Well, I, I like the show, but, like, I got to tell you, man, like, it’s it’s not. You’re bringing me back to his genre. I haven’t really been a part of, like, as far as, like, horror thriller, even mysteries different. But like, as far as, like the horror thriller aspects of it, like, with the exception of whatever we do on Halloween, I haven’t watched those movies on a regular basis since I was like 17 and that, and that’s a number that I’m now just old enough to say was decades ago, right?
00:39:50:58 – 00:40:17:56
Agent Palmer
Like, but but but I’m coming back to this and I’m going like, well, when it’s done right, this is why it’s done right. Like, this is why people enjoy it. Because it’s more than just here’s your jump scare, right? And and you, you accomplished like getting me to that place where it’s like, I like I do, and I don’t want to know what happens next, like I did.
00:40:17:58 – 00:40:25:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah I may yeah. Do I hit play now do I, I don’t maybe not. I’m not in the right headspace. I’m I’ll listen to it tomorrow. Right.
00:40:25:21 – 00:40:50:20
Joel Mengel
Like like yeah I because I had I wanted to take like what you had said I kind of wanted to, I wanted to make something that, a story that I liked, but I also. And this is sound weird, but I wanted a story to kind of, like, pass the idea past my grandparents and have them say, that’s a cool story.
00:40:50:26 – 00:40:50:51
Agent Palmer
Nice.
00:40:50:56 – 00:41:14:17
Joel Mengel
Because if I could get my grandparents on board with because they are, oh, they make Billy Graham look like a groupie. It’s like, I love them. I’m not talking any trash. It’s just it takes a lot to get like my grandpa Bob interested in something like this? Okay. So it was part of it was me. Just kind of like getting them in.
00:41:14:17 – 00:41:18:33
Joel Mengel
I knew if I could get them in, I could get people like you in.
00:41:18:38 – 00:41:40:13
Agent Palmer
Who would fit. So it’s more. It’s it’s almost like a personal, like challenge. Like, how can I do this on such a level and, and, and and looked at I have trouble getting my mother to listen to this show and she’s my mom, right. Like that’s supposed to be the given. So I feel like. All right, well, I gotta up the ante.
00:41:40:13 – 00:41:57:30
Agent Palmer
I gotta make it interesting for my mom. Right. And so you have this level where it’s like. But but it’s more right because we just we talked about it like, not too long ago, like we want to do a show. We also want to listen to two. So now you’ve got multiple fronts with what you’re like. All right.
00:41:57:32 – 00:42:04:42
Agent Palmer
Now it’s kind of coalescing of what I need to do. Now it’s time to come up with the the meat of it.
00:42:04:47 – 00:42:05:26
Joel Mengel
00:42:05:30 – 00:42:10:13
Agent Palmer
What is the writing process like. Are you literally sitting down and writing.
00:42:10:18 – 00:42:34:41
Joel Mengel
The writing process usually starts with I have the idea. I was like, okay, here’s I had on my wall like a big like I taped together about 12 sheets of paper that I had drawn graphs on and literally it looked like Charlie Day from, It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia with because it had red string going to each of them.
00:42:34:45 – 00:42:36:27
Agent Palmer
I got and.
00:42:36:32 – 00:43:04:11
Joel Mengel
I had the outline, like each episode had a very specific point I wanted to make. So once I had season one in the full crazy conspiracy wall art done, then I would then I literally like, you know, right before the shutdown, the big shut down, we were dead at work. So I would literally sit down and look at a picture on my phone of episode one and start there.
00:43:04:11 – 00:43:16:32
Joel Mengel
Okay. And then because I knew where I want to go see event one beginning to end, and I had the basic roadmap for each episode and that that’s how I would start getting. That’s how I would write along.
00:43:16:36 – 00:43:39:51
Agent Palmer
I need to tell you, I am I find it refreshing that you wanted to do this as audio, because occasionally I run into people that are like, oh yeah, I’m starting my podcast so I can make a TV show or like I’m or like, or like, this is my launch pad I’m going to get people to. Yeah, I mean, this is my great idea.
00:43:39:51 – 00:44:06:36
Agent Palmer
And then Netflix is going to come and bang down my door and I, I find that like then just write a television script, don’t don’t fuck around with my medium. And, you know, I like it and you don’t like and and it’s not my medium. Right. Like it’s one like I write to like I have multiple mediums but like I, there’s something in maybe it’s because of the love of like the old radio stuff like the I find radio sacred.
00:44:06:40 – 00:44:17:23
Agent Palmer
And if you can do it right, it doesn’t need to be video. Right. Like it’s just one of the most authentic forms of storytelling that exist.
00:44:17:28 – 00:44:43:00
Joel Mengel
Yeah, and I never wrote this with the concept of ever achieving any kind of notoriety. I genuinely I don’t want any notoriety and I don’t. And I never thought it’s never even occurred to me the concept of like, moving it from just audio, the audio medium to like television or streaming or anything like that. It was literally all I ever wrote.
00:44:43:00 – 00:45:02:38
Joel Mengel
It was just for that. Just. Or, you know, that kind of anticipation I always get when I. It’s like, it’s fucking Tuesday. Get the new Magnus archives. I’m getting fucking excited. I know, 2:00 coming around. Let’s fucking hurry up. That’s what I was wanting it for you personally.
00:45:02:38 – 00:45:23:53
Agent Palmer
Because I will answer the question first. But like, do you find the idea of, like, success on a massive scale scary? Because like, I do like, I look at my numbers because I, personally, I want to make sure I’m doing better. And the only way that we can really know that is like, did I get a few more listens this month than I did last month?
00:45:23:53 – 00:45:43:09
Agent Palmer
Because clearly that just means I’m gaining someone, right? Like slowly but surely I’m gaining people and that’s cool. I don’t want a million people to listen to me tomorrow. That would scare the shit out of me. And there’s I don’t know what my I don’t know what my disinterest in. I don’t maybe it’s not even disinterest, but I don’t know what I’m scared of.
00:45:43:21 – 00:45:58:01
Agent Palmer
Like I am scared for this to, like, maybe go viral. One day and then all of a sudden like, oh my God, this is amazing. But like to have 1 or 2 people say, great to have 100,000 people say it behind the, what?
00:45:58:06 – 00:46:04:41
Joel Mengel
No, I that the concept positively scares the ever loving shit out of me.
00:46:04:45 – 00:46:06:53
Agent Palmer
Well, we can start our own little,
00:46:06:58 – 00:46:25:51
Joel Mengel
Support group just because I know. Because every time someone’s like, you’re going to be famous with this, all I can think of is that Tom waits song where he says, I fear from the sins of my youth. Yeah. And I just know I have done so much shady shit when I was a younger man that it’s like I could never be famous.
00:46:25:59 – 00:46:27:47
Joel Mengel
I didn’t go.
00:46:27:52 – 00:46:28:57
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean.
00:46:29:01 – 00:46:33:27
Joel Mengel
I it frightens me to no end. But, you know, the concept of fame because when.
00:46:33:32 – 00:46:44:19
Agent Palmer
We were before cell phones, man, we so some, some of that stuff is just he said he said, he said, she said like we don’t have video evidence of all the shit we did when we were kids.
00:46:44:20 – 00:47:12:47
Joel Mengel
I but I just, I just know that’s that’s part of my fear and the up and like I say, good 50, 50, 50, 50, oh, I don’t want to be famous because I did some dumb shit. And the other 50 is, I don’t want to get scared and screw it up, you know, I want I want to maintain the headspace I have writing this to get, you know, to make it stay the same but different.
00:47:12:47 – 00:47:36:59
Joel Mengel
Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, one of it. But I want to maintain where my brain is and what’s helped me get to season one that I’m proud of. Then make and transfer that in the season two. And I think fame or being viral or, you know, being well-known or recognized on a big scale would change that inevitably, because now you have a whole bunch more people that you want to make happy.
00:47:37:04 – 00:48:01:47
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And and it’s when you internalize it to just keeping it. Well, that’s, that’s the, that’s the balance. That’s the hard part. Right. Like can we keep can we grow our base, whatever that means. Like listeners, you know, get more listeners and still maintain the I’m doing this for me because this is the show I want to listen to, and it takes a kind of fortitude to maintain that.
00:48:01:47 – 00:48:10:28
Agent Palmer
And as long as we don’t have hundreds of thousands of downloads on release day, we don’t have to worry about that. We’re still just doing it for us.
00:48:10:32 – 00:48:28:41
Joel Mengel
Yeah, I, I’m going to have to do when I start really, ramping up production for season two. I’m going to just not I’m going to have to do what I did with season one, which is not look at the analytics for all of season one. I did not look till the end. I didn’t look how many people were downloading.
00:48:28:46 – 00:48:42:52
Joel Mengel
I didn’t because, you know, I wrote for season two all season two. I’m just going to have to not look again, not look at what an iTunes ratings or comments or anything like that. I’m just that’s off the table for me.
00:48:42:56 – 00:49:11:29
Agent Palmer
I do, I look monthly now. I’m monthly like once a month, beginning of the month. I look at the last month for the podcast. In the blog I just go, did I do a little bit better this month than last month? Yes. Fantastic or no? Well, can’t. Like I, I don’t know why I’m looking either. Like because I if if my numbers drop at the next month I look I I’m, I’m not changing anything.
00:49:11:34 – 00:49:34:14
Agent Palmer
I’m still I’m still doing this show for me and I’m still writing my blog for me. Like, I, I don’t know why I look at all, but I can’t not. But I’ve limited it to 12 times a year, so I feel like small victories because we all know that first show. How many did I get today? Oh, somebody downloaded me today.
00:49:34:18 – 00:49:55:48
Joel Mengel
Okay, I will admit for show I did check quite a few times. I wanted to sound cooler than I actually was, but no, that first show. But then I, I was like, I can’t, I can’t because I’m, I’m very much like, I want to appeal to as many people as I can. But for example, around episode two, I had to redo that twice.
00:49:55:53 – 00:50:34:41
Joel Mengel
I rewrote it twice. And there’s a, there’s like an alternate version of that episode that I have on my computer, but it was it was it felt so vastly out there, different than season one because, you know, I kept looking at the numbers and kept looking at the downloads, and I was like, wow, this I got this many people, okay, so if I put it this way and I just, I, I’m conscious enough of myself to know I’d be really easily swayed to change, to change what I wanted to kind of appeal to as many people as possible.
00:50:34:45 – 00:51:00:11
Agent Palmer
Is there anything in your process that you learned from season one that you’re going to take and tweak for season two? Like, holy crap. I mean, and obviously what you learned and as far as, you know, editing and producing like that’s learned to knowledge you’re going to take forward. But like as far as like the writing are, is, are you are you going to do another Charlie Day on your wall like.
00:51:00:16 – 00:51:24:09
Joel Mengel
I actually, yeah, I am going to do another Charlie Day on my wall. But what I’ve learned from season one is how to. And I want to take it in there by the end of season one, episode nine, there’s a lot of threads that we kind of tied up and then, you know, kind of frayed on the other end of the rope to lead into new questions for season two.
00:51:24:14 – 00:51:41:25
Joel Mengel
And now I think I have a better understanding of how to properly introduce them, because they’re parts of it for like episodes six, it kind of has the subtlety of a brick wall. Some of those things.
00:51:41:30 – 00:51:45:17
Agent Palmer
With six was six, six wasn’t the drunk episode, was it?
00:51:45:22 – 00:51:47:07
Joel Mengel
No. Six was the,
00:51:47:12 – 00:51:48:44
Agent Palmer
The Free State?
00:51:48:49 – 00:51:49:52
Joel Mengel
That’s episode five.
00:51:49:54 – 00:51:50:39
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:51:50:44 – 00:51:54:00
Joel Mengel
Episode six is the walk where he goes on his walk.
00:51:54:02 – 00:51:59:22
Agent Palmer
Gotcha. And their discovery. It’s the physical discovery episode. Really? Yeah. Okay.
00:51:59:27 – 00:52:08:05
Joel Mengel
But there’s there’s elements in there that I didn’t properly, I guess, drop out there for people to get.
00:52:08:19 – 00:52:17:03
Agent Palmer
But did you get that by listening back or. Yeah. Okay. So so you. But I mean, it was painful, but you did listen back.
00:52:17:08 – 00:52:17:33
Joel Mengel
Yeah.
00:52:17:44 – 00:52:18:39
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:52:18:43 – 00:52:55:19
Joel Mengel
Yeah I did I mean there are three episodes I really re listen to to make sure, you know, it’s like, did I do this right. The rest of them I can’t the rest of my just, I just can’t. But there were a couple where I’ll re listen to try and so. Yeah but they, they were the words. But that particular aspect is what one of the main things that I think I’m going to be bringing into season two when it comes to my writing, is how to properly introduce answers to questions instead of just having, you know, the big dick of truth.
00:52:55:19 – 00:52:59:40
Joel Mengel
Just put it on the table and be like, take it. Audience.
00:52:59:45 – 00:53:25:58
Agent Palmer
I mean, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I mean, remember, this is storytelling, right? Like, you are the author and no matter how many other characters there are, right? Like you are the voice of God. So whatever setup we need, you know, where as an audience member, like we’re along for the ride, you know, does this go on forever?
00:53:25:59 – 00:53:34:46
Agent Palmer
Like, I mean, obviously season one, you’re working on season two. Is there a 4 or 5 six? Like is there an overarching arc and you know where it ends?
00:53:34:51 – 00:53:38:28
Joel Mengel
I know exactly where it ends. It’s going to be. It’s a three season show.
00:53:38:30 – 00:53:39:27
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:53:39:31 – 00:53:49:40
Joel Mengel
Only three seasons. When I came up with the original idea, I came up with the exact final line in my head.
00:53:49:45 – 00:53:51:49
Agent Palmer
And you wrote it down. Please tell me you wrote it down.
00:53:52:03 – 00:53:52:44
Joel Mengel
Oh, absolutely.
00:53:52:44 – 00:53:53:15
Agent Palmer
Okay. All right.
00:53:53:15 – 00:54:21:24
Joel Mengel
Wrote down. I wrote down the final sentence, and then I circled the final word, which, you know, no one’s going to know, but it was literally my name is Alison Moore. And then the final word was that someone would say is defiance. And then that that’s. So I know exactly where the story goes. I just, I want to bring into the next two seasons more flow.
00:54:21:29 – 00:54:49:56
Agent Palmer
I got you like and and and as you go aside from flow, like the world gets bigger, right? Like. Yeah, I, I love the idea because it’s so, I don’t want to say simple. Simple is the wrong word. But in a world where people start things that don’t have an end or they start things without knowing how they end it, or maybe this will just go on forever.
00:54:50:01 – 00:55:12:44
Agent Palmer
I like knowing your start and your end and you know this is what I’m going to split it up in. Like that’s that’s huge. Because yeah, it like, I don’t want to I don’t want to speak ill of network television. But let’s be fair, the reason some of these shows lose their way is because they have no idea where they’re going.
00:55:12:49 – 00:55:41:36
Joel Mengel
Yeah, I wanted to avoid was an I am a die hard supernatural fan. All right. I’ll just say it now. I, I have watched every single episode of all 15 seasons, but for me personally, season 1 or 5 and I kind of have like it was season three of supernatural that kind of like how I wanted to weave in the elements smoother.
00:55:41:41 – 00:56:05:51
Joel Mengel
Like I watched how they introduced elements from season one and season two, and they did it with this. This like it was almost effortless in the way they told the story. And I that I watched that and I was like, after I did, you know, season one, I’m rewatching Supernatural Cults. We’re stuck in the house. I want to be able to more to better have that.
00:56:05:56 – 00:56:15:15
Joel Mengel
Those lines flow in the story and not, you know, again, brick wall just thump.
00:56:15:20 – 00:56:40:26
Agent Palmer
What what are the other creative influences like? I mean, is it, is it just everything around you or are there specific, like pieces of art, like obviously supernatural television. So is it is television like huge? I mean, obviously we talked about the radio, I understand that, but like movies, television, like, are you taking little bits and pieces from everything?
00:56:40:31 – 00:57:10:59
Joel Mengel
Yes. Okay. Like Delson, when I write him, I write him how I would do it and how my, you know, and then I include, you know, like, how would my dad kind of say these things. But the idea of Delson was kind of a little bit of Cool Hand Luke, just that loner trapped, you know, he’s a little because he thinks he’s smarter than the system and he’s kind of the last free man in that world of the story.
00:57:10:59 – 00:57:37:01
Joel Mengel
And I kind of wanted to have a little bit of a cool hand Luke element with my guy, but not, you know, it’s Paul Newman. You can’t really tell. But yeah, there are elements like, again, episode seven was an Omar a love story to the Last of Us? Yeah, I wanted that emotional holy shit moment that that game instilled in me.
00:57:37:06 – 00:58:03:23
Joel Mengel
And, episode eight, you know, the one where I, I tell my background story, there’s, you know, episode of lost. Okay, I want it because there’s a story where I think it was Jack’s character or whatever, one of those characters, and it was just like end of his rope, you know, telling that what I guess defined him in those moments that led to where he is now.
00:58:03:28 – 00:58:06:52
Joel Mengel
I wanted that kind of feel to it.
00:58:06:57 – 00:58:36:30
Agent Palmer
I mean, I, I like I just I applaud your, variety. Right. Because like, I mean, I know creatives that are like, well, I get all my ideas from TV because that’s what I want to do, or I get all my ideas from movies or what have you. And it’s like, no, storytelling is storytelling is storytelling. And while voice may be the oldest, right.
00:58:36:30 – 00:59:02:37
Agent Palmer
Like, we had this, we were telling stories like this well before we could write. But then we learned to write, and there were different things we could do, and then we could draw pictures. And there were different things we could do. And then there were moving pictures. And like, there’s elements of good storytelling and everything. And I think that the best story tellers and your season one is, is is proof of this.
00:59:02:41 – 00:59:04:37
Agent Palmer
Get it from everywhere.
00:59:04:42 – 00:59:34:26
Joel Mengel
Oh yeah. Season two. It’s drawn from three. Like season two is going to have four big things. You’re going to be able to see the I hate to sound pretentious, but you’re going to see the DNA of these four influences, okay, in the story. Like because they’re epic stories, they’re huge story. So I, you know, and this particular like I wanted to start season one micro.
00:59:34:31 – 00:59:35:18
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:59:35:23 – 00:59:57:27
Joel Mengel
Season two macro and season three, I wanted to be a hybrid of both. You can see the small, the story is told small, but you know of the huge implications of it. Yeah. So season two is going to have massive like just for the main elements. That might be a detriment. Now that we’re talking about it, I may need to rethink my well.
00:59:57:32 – 01:00:03:45
Agent Palmer
I mean look, it didn’t publish season two episode one yet. So you have all the time in the world.
01:00:03:50 – 01:00:08:16
Joel Mengel
Oh yeah. Okay. Okay. The more I’m thinking about now, I’m overthinking it. Shit.
01:00:08:21 – 01:00:34:17
Agent Palmer
Well, but we do this. I do this too. Like, I’ll, I, I it seems to come up on this show a lot recently, but like there are moments when I’m doing research or getting ready for an a conversation where I go, I think I’ve done my homework. Well, I’m going to ask this question. This is going to be the answer, and I’m going to be able to cycle right into this question, and this will be the answer.
01:00:34:29 – 01:00:56:42
Agent Palmer
And then we’ll be able to go off topic a little bit. And it’s like, that’s never like I, I forget those things halfway, you know, like I brew a pot of coffee before almost every episode and halfway through brewing, I forget everything except the first question. Right? Like everything that I just laid out is now gone. Why did I even bother?
01:00:56:42 – 01:01:22:50
Agent Palmer
But you know, hey, it it happens, right? Like, and we go through these exercises and every episode I’ve done before this and every episode I’ve thought of before, this helps in for me to, whatever I’m doing now, or at least I like to think so. Like, yeah, it’s always building, right? And and yours is, as an actual story.
01:01:22:50 – 01:01:34:30
Agent Palmer
Right. And in a more linear fashion is more, concrete, like, we can see these are the developments, these are the plot threads.
01:01:34:35 – 01:01:40:32
Joel Mengel
But let me let me ask you a question. As as someone who listened to the show, I always kind of want your personal opinion on something.
01:01:40:32 – 01:01:41:23
Agent Palmer
Okay.
01:01:41:28 – 01:01:46:00
Joel Mengel
Flashbacks like I did, telling back stories.
01:01:46:05 – 01:01:46:40
Agent Palmer
Yep.
01:01:46:45 – 01:02:09:12
Joel Mengel
How do you feel about that in a story? Because for me, it was really hard not to go down the road where it was like, well, this is just an easy crutch to be able to tell difficult stories and like someone who consumes the media. How do you feel about, backstories or background or flashback stories, as it were?
01:02:09:12 – 01:02:43:13
Agent Palmer
I, I like flashback stories, and I’ll tell you why. Because flashback stories allow the storyteller and I get this more from reading books than I do from anything else. But flashbacks allow you to IV drip out the information that the reader needs to know. Okay, so I don’t need to know everything. Like we don’t start stories with. He was born on a cold night in October and then he went to school.
01:02:43:13 – 01:03:07:31
Agent Palmer
Like, we don’t do that. We go, this is where he is right now. And oh, it happens to be his birthday in early, like in October. Right. Like and I think piecemeal. And it allows us to not forget everything. Usually when you’re doing a backstory, it’s related to the things that are going on. So I’m more likely to remember like if if you tell me, as is the case, right.
01:03:07:31 – 01:03:33:16
Agent Palmer
Like he cracks the, the, the code or and gets to the laptop and all that stuff because he went to school for it and communications, I’m more likely to remember that than if you just spend three paragraphs or a narrative at the very beginning saying you went to school for this. He had two kids to the like. So as flashbacks work, I’m okay with it.
01:03:33:16 – 01:03:54:05
Agent Palmer
I think it works better for the story overall, provided that it’s not like, well, we have a backstory for every single thing, right? Like there is a balance there, but it’s much better than what I like to call the info drop, which is like, who are you? This is who I like. No, like, just like, what are you doing here?
01:03:54:05 – 01:04:07:06
Agent Palmer
And then we’ll figure out who you are later. Right? Like, right. I like it because it it breaks up the story, but I’m more likely to remember that shit like, if you tell me everything up at once, I’m not going to remember.
01:04:07:11 – 01:04:16:32
Joel Mengel
Okay? I just was curious about that from just, from, I guess from an audience point of view, I just kind of I know it’s your show, and I’m just kind of hijacked.
01:04:16:34 – 01:04:17:36
Agent Palmer
No, no, no, no, I.
01:04:17:43 – 01:04:33:16
Joel Mengel
Kind of wanted to know because you were asking about the writing process, and that is a part of a problem when I write is, is I kind of lean on that too much and turn the background stories into big info.
01:04:33:16 – 01:04:39:31
Agent Palmer
Dumps, but you already know that, so clearly you’re already working on trying not to.
01:04:39:40 – 01:05:03:16
Joel Mengel
Oh, there are so many. Just there’s piles of printed out scripts in the closet where it’s like episode 14. It’s going to tell the background story of the bricks, and they’re just it’s going to be all their hopes and dreams and and what they hope to accomplish is zombies. And how do they feel during that moment? And then I’m like, oh, that’s terrible, isn’t that shit?
01:05:03:21 – 01:05:08:07
Joel Mengel
But yeah, you were asking. I just I got to thinking about that while we were talking.
01:05:08:18 – 01:05:33:30
Agent Palmer
No, I look, I love process. I mean, obviously I mean that’s kind of one of the like I love process and story and you know what you can’t tell. You can’t talk about process without talking about story. The two were 100% interchangeable. And that’s that’s one of the weird things that I didn’t name this podcast process and story, although I didn’t know that’s what it was going to be.
01:05:33:39 – 01:05:35:35
Agent Palmer
Right? Like, I had no idea.
01:05:35:39 – 01:05:40:34
Joel Mengel
That is a great name for a podcast, though. That is a fantastic process and story.
01:05:40:34 – 01:06:04:31
Agent Palmer
I it’s my subtitle. I’m just going to subtitle because this is the thing, right? Like, I always like to tell people like, you want to help with the podcast. Great, this is what you do, title it what it’s going to be, and then pick something that it’s going to be and stay in your lane. And I haven’t done either of those things, but I think over the course of, you know, like in when I get if years from now and I get to like 400, right, I can go back and go, all right.
01:06:04:31 – 01:06:14:43
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No, it was process and story for that early stuff. But then holy crap, I have to run a guest that didn’t talk about any of that stuff. And it’s hey, who knows.
01:06:14:48 – 01:06:20:57
Joel Mengel
Absolutely.
01:06:21:02 – 01:06:26:08
Agent Palmer
You.
01:06:26:13 – 01:06:55:00
Agent Palmer
What’s interesting to me is that while Joel and I have very similar inspirations and influences, and while we both enjoy each other’s podcasts, we didn’t want to create the same thing. Joel went with a fictional narrative and I went with a conversational podcast. Most importantly, we were inspired to create something. And while it might not have been the first inspiration or second inspiration that got us to literally or figuratively put pen to paper, eventually we did.
01:06:55:05 – 01:07:24:11
Agent Palmer
And when we did, we created something we wanted to consume that we are both proud of. But what resonates mostly is what Joel’s father said to him. Don’t waste your time. As I record this, I’ve been soul searching for the better part of three years, but not having found that one thing hasn’t stopped me from creating something. This podcast, or continuing my blog, or even assisting friends with their own passion projects.
01:07:24:16 – 01:07:56:08
Agent Palmer
While it is possible that I will eventually find what I’m looking for, I’m not expecting that it will be easy and I’m not anticipating that it will just simply work. I know things that matter take effort, things that matter require sacrifice. Things that matter take time. And above all, they aren’t a waste. So it can be as simple as just spending more time with friends and loved ones, or as complicated as becoming your own sound engineer for the next project you were inspired to create.
01:07:56:13 – 01:08:23:08
Agent Palmer
Don’t waste your time means making sure your time is valuable. It’s a commodity that can’t be saved, only spent one minute at a time. So don’t waste your time. Do what you have to do. But most importantly, don’t forget to do what you want to do, whatever that is. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 40. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes.
01:08:23:08 – 01:08:46:57
Agent Palmer
And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can tweet me at Agent Palmer, my guest, Joel, Mengel at fuel. Neve. That’s f u l nev e his show at Edge world cast. And this show at the Palmer Files. You can find the edge of the world broadcast, as well as Joel’s other show, The Curly Mustache.
01:08:46:57 – 01:09:01:28
Agent Palmer
Wherever you get your podcast, don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com.
01:09:01:33 – 01:09:15:26
Unknown
You.
01:09:15:31 – 01:09:28:14
Unknown
Be.
01:09:28:19 – 01:09:41:59
Unknown
Me.
01:09:42:04 – 01:09:44:56
Agent Palmer
All right. Do you have one final question for me?
01:09:45:00 – 01:10:07:33
Joel Mengel
I do, and, we’re going to a little bit of a spoiler. That spoiler warning for those of you who haven’t listened, which, by the way, we are available on iTunes and Spotify, so. But, season one. Yeah. The big drop at the end, the holy crap moment that I was aiming for. Where do you think we’re going?
01:10:07:38 – 01:10:12:32
Agent Palmer
Ooh, you know what? I.
01:10:12:37 – 01:10:51:13
Agent Palmer
That’s a good, I honestly so I binged it today, you know, and I, I honestly don’t know because my brain and this is, I think, maybe a personal thing. My brain got so, so wrapped up in trying to figure out the new character, the new voice that the very, very, very end, was not what I focused on.
01:10:51:18 – 01:11:26:13
Agent Palmer
Like when the when, when the credits run, I’m so focused on her and not the creepy voice at the end because I’m like, well, there’s a lot more going on now because and and I don’t know, maybe, maybe it’s the way you set it up, but you set it up like he was alone. So no matter what else happens, the fact that he’s not alone, like I can deal with any other shock you’re going to give me.
01:11:26:13 – 01:11:45:08
Agent Palmer
But for eight episodes, I thought he was the last man standing. And now he’s not alone. He’s not alone, Joel. He’s not alone. So for me, it’s like, well, whatever they tackle, they tackle together. But they’re not alone. Like, oh, what a what a what?
01:11:45:13 – 01:11:47:22
Joel Mengel
Oh, wait. Did you not hear the Stinger?
01:11:47:22 – 01:11:51:23
Agent Palmer
No, I know the stinger. I know the stinger. I’m just saying that part.
01:11:51:23 – 01:11:53:36
Joel Mengel
Okay. I was like no no no no. But like could Stinger.
01:11:53:51 – 01:12:25:34
Agent Palmer
That’s awesome. No I know I got the stinger, but but for me, like I freaked out so much more about like, there is someone else because you set up such a desolation and and and the wearing down of Delson it like it’s such a hopelessness that like when somebody else arrives who isn’t a zombie and doesn’t want to eat your face and is talking in English, right?
01:12:25:39 – 01:12:45:24
Agent Palmer
I it’s such a mind blower that, like it, it’s the pincher move that wins the war. And you’re like, but that’s just the pincher move. What? What about what about the rest of my offensive? Right. But for me, like the Pincher move did it like I didn’t I didn’t need the rest of the offensive. I was just.
01:12:45:29 – 01:12:55:35
Agent Palmer
What. So yes I, I know there’s other things coming but like for me the bigger one was like Holy shit, he’s not alone okay okay.
01:12:55:35 – 01:13:15:19
Joel Mengel
Because I just kind of was like I’ve always been curious like because me and my friends will do this about TV shows or movies or, you know, for me and my buddies, it’s always the Magnus archives where we were like, okay, that was a big ending. And then we kind of hypothesize where it’s going, and I didn’t know if, like, you had a little hypothesis, like, I don’t.
01:13:15:26 – 01:13:37:51
Agent Palmer
Know, I’m so, I, and I think I need to listen to the last episode again because again, the and look, this is where when we talked about info dumps, that was a proper info dump, right? Because she’s got all the Intel and he’s like, what? And and it’s like, I, I got so wrapped up in that.
01:13:37:56 – 01:13:57:00
Agent Palmer
And maybe it’s because maybe he’s because of all the spy books that I’ve been reading, like, it’s just like I’m trying to read in between the lines of the Intel, and I’m looking at Intel and information as so much more important than the exterior things. And that’s probably that’s very much me. Like, do not take that as a takeaway.
01:13:57:10 – 01:14:27:10
Agent Palmer
But like for me in in intelligence and information is it’s show like the Paramount like it’s easy it’s better to make information or it’s better to make decisions based on information than necessarily circumstances. And that’s the thing that I feel like is all because of the espionage I read. So so that’s. Yeah, but I’m, I, I mean, I’m excited for season two.
01:14:27:15 – 01:15:08:59
Joel Mengel
I, I that works for me. I just like the fact that you took, you know, that that that it had that effect on you like that. I am just I am not used to this much positive validation from something I’ve done outside of my immediate family. So to have someone as in, and I’m not trying to kiss your ass, but I’m gonna say it, someone who is immensely talented as you are with your work and your podcast and your blog and everything that you know, it’s like this motherfucker likes my stuff, and he’s getting what I was trying to put out there, and I it just just hearing you talk about that, well, I’m like,
01:15:08:59 – 01:15:10:56
Joel Mengel
I’m on cloud nine right now.
01:15:11:01 – 01:15:36:11
Agent Palmer
But for me right, it’s you’re the you’re that you’re the unpolished like you’re the gem I found. Right. Like how does not how does everybody not know about this. Right. Like, and and I, I think that like, you know, I like to say everybody has a story and everybody does, but not every story is created equal. And and I feel like your story’s good, like it.
01:15:36:14 – 01:15:43:23
Agent Palmer
It’s quality. And I think people need people need to. People need to listen to this. Sorry, I, I’m just not.
01:15:43:38 – 01:15:48:45
Joel Mengel
I this is just I am visibly uncomfortable right now receiving this kind of brave.
01:15:48:47 – 01:16:10:50
Agent Palmer
Look. I hope, you know, I’ve just kind of, like, glossed over the fact that you called me a professional because, like, for me, like, look, bar none, bar none. The worst thing you can do to me and for me is give me a gift or a compliment, because I don’t take either very well. So I just glossed them over.
01:16:10:55 – 01:16:19:20
Joel Mengel
Okay, I understand, trust me, I understand. I absolutely understand.
01:16:19:25 – 01:16:22:14
Agent Palmer
Well, we can start our support group on Monday.
01:16:22:19 – 01:16:28:51
Joel Mengel
Perfect. Thank you. It’s, Hi, I’m Joel, and. Hi. Don’t take compliments. Hi, Joe.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).