Episode 119 features Jess Eskra, a lawyer who’s in the game to help people.
We talk about lawyer myths, posture, legislation, Jury duty, law school, debate, education, and much much more.
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00:00:00:03 – 00:00:23:17
Agent Palmer
Previously on agent Palmer dot com finding future pirate treasure in the pages of Debatable Space, six Nations Full Contact is sports documentary at its most candid and primal. And Kat from last episode has just announced Undead Folk, her next short. So go do all the things. This is the Palmer Files episode 119 with Jess Eskra, a lawyer who’s in the game to help people.
00:00:23:31 – 00:00:43:19
Agent Palmer
We talk about lawyer myths, posture legislation, jury duty, law, school debate, education and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:00:43:23 – 00:01:03:39
Agent Palmer
First.
00:01:03:44 – 00:01:26:55
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 119th episode is Jess Eskra. I met Jess through her husband, Rob Eskra, who was on this show twice during episode 94 to discuss hobbies. But most importantly to this episode 58, where Rob and I talked about his going to law school, being a lawyer, and getting out of the game.
00:01:27:00 – 00:01:53:14
Agent Palmer
Jess did not do that. Once she eventually got to law school. A story to come. Later in this episode, she found that she loved what she was doing and she’s still doing it. You discover just exactly what she does during this episode as well, or at least a portion of her job, because she does a lot. Anyway, you’ll get to hear what she does and why she enjoys it, as well as debunking some of those TV courtroom myths.
00:01:53:19 – 00:02:14:37
Agent Palmer
A little about government, because that’s where she works. Legislation, legalese, posture, anxiety, education, facilitating change. And, well, all of that and a whole lot more is coming your way shortly. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact myself and my guest, Jess Eskra in the show notes.
00:02:14:51 – 00:02:36:54
Agent Palmer
Just doesn’t have a website, but you can be sure I’ll pass along any messages to her if you wish. Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Jim palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:36:58 – 00:02:50:16
Agent Palmer
Jess, you are a lawyer and I just want to know, like the number one thing you want people out there to know. That is the biggest myth about lawyering.
00:02:50:21 – 00:03:11:32
Jess Eskra
Oh, that’s a good one. First off, I hate to to be a dream killer, but, if you’re a suits fan, which I know a lot of people who admire the legal profession are, they probably violate the rules of professional conduct and ethics about 17 times. And this is.
00:03:11:37 – 00:03:17:51
Agent Palmer
This is like being like, I’m a fan of scrubs, and now I want to get into medical, like, just.
00:03:17:55 – 00:03:21:36
Jess Eskra
It’s nowhere near reality. I hate to kill dreams, but.
00:03:21:36 – 00:03:26:32
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but do they. But do people dress like that? Like, is the fashion on point?
00:03:26:36 – 00:03:29:24
Jess Eskra
God, no no no no no no no no.
00:03:29:29 – 00:03:31:17
Agent Palmer
It’s all a lie.
00:03:31:22 – 00:03:55:53
Jess Eskra
It’s all a lie. I will tell you, they wear a lot of, probably, like, theory dresses. So I work in the public sector, a lot of government attorneys as well. We are nowhere near the same pay scale. So you’re getting a lot of Macy’s clearance suits. You’re getting a lot of, things that aren’t tailored, to you.
00:03:55:53 – 00:04:09:30
Jess Eskra
And it’s nowhere near that glamorous. And the shoes, I have to say, for women, there’s no way you’re going to be in court on your feet for five, six, seven, eight hours in stilettos.
00:04:09:30 – 00:04:35:14
Agent Palmer
But, okay, so this has always been my question about that. It’s not the, the, the comfort level. I, I that’s a discussion for other people. But like, some of those courtrooms have solid floors. Yeah. Like at some point isn’t like the judge going to be like, can you, can you, can you stop tap dancing? Because they don’t they do make noise.
00:04:35:14 – 00:04:35:56
Agent Palmer
You’re not.
00:04:36:01 – 00:05:00:12
Jess Eskra
Got marble. You’ve got hardwood. Yes. It definitely is not a quiet. So you are actually mindful if you’re a walk or a pacer. I don’t know. I get mindful about how many steps I’m taking. Because yeah, it can get noisy and it can make you look a little bit, I think antsy, not calm. Cool.
00:05:00:12 – 00:05:02:57
Jess Eskra
Collected as you want to portray.
00:05:02:59 – 00:05:10:47
Agent Palmer
Is it like, did you take any acting classes in school and, like, do you wish you had?
00:05:10:52 – 00:05:20:49
Jess Eskra
I did not, I was a ballerina, so that might have helped a little bit with stage presence and posture and all of that. I did that for like 13 years.
00:05:20:58 – 00:05:25:11
Agent Palmer
Okay. But before we move on, do you still have good posture?
00:05:25:15 – 00:05:46:49
Jess Eskra
No. Terrible. Oh, we actually talk about that. We talked about that in law school. There’s something called Lawyer Knack where you kind of from hunching over and reading all the time. You got really poor posture. And if you look at some of the really seasoned older attorneys, they’re like just completely hunchback. And I’m terrified of that.
00:05:46:54 – 00:05:52:08
Agent Palmer
All right. But you have the posture because you’ve got some background in, being center stage.
00:05:52:08 – 00:05:58:13
Jess Eskra
Yeah. And I get to carry babies all day, which helps. Right. When I’m not at work.
00:05:58:27 – 00:06:07:15
Agent Palmer
Did you always like. You’re the center of attention when you get up in a courtroom like it was that that you’re cool with that? Like, no, no.
00:06:07:20 – 00:06:36:59
Jess Eskra
I it’s still nerve wracking. It never gets old. You know, I honest to God, I still, I don’t litigate that often. So a lot of what I do in my role is, case management, I prepare legislation, I do contracts, I give general legal advice. So it’s really across the board. We have a really small legal team that really just runs the city from a legal aspect.
00:06:37:04 – 00:07:04:43
Jess Eskra
But when I do litigate, it is stressful. It’s nerve wracking. Oftentimes I have, you know, the press may be present. So that’s an added layer of stress or just residents, taxpayers may come. They’re interested in the subject matter. And so I still get the jitters, I get butterflies, I even, you know, have a little bit of a panic attack here.
00:07:04:44 – 00:07:06:44
Jess Eskra
There nothing crazy, but.
00:07:06:51 – 00:07:32:49
Agent Palmer
I think that’s the sign of a good whatever. Not even just, like being in the courtroom. Like, I still like, I’ve done this show over 100 times, and I’ve done it with my parents and my best friends and strangers. And I still get nervous. Like, I feel like when I don’t get nervous before recording, like, like that’s probably when it’s time to hang it up, like it gets us together.
00:07:33:03 – 00:07:55:55
Jess Eskra
So that’s, where I was going to go next. I talked, I confided in one of, you know, my mentors, an older attorney who has been around for decades and really respected him. And I said, you know, maybe this isn’t for me. I’m like, I’m just a nervous wreck all the time. And he said, oh, yes, honey, that means you’re so good.
00:07:55:55 – 00:08:03:00
Jess Eskra
He said, when you stop getting nervous, when you don’t care anymore, it’s time to be done. And I was like, oh my God, really.
00:08:03:05 – 00:08:19:10
Agent Palmer
I, I mean, the anxiety could go like, I like nerves. Getting ready for the record is fine. But like, I wish the just general generalized anxiety that I live with that can go away. Yeah. I don’t think I need that to be good that.
00:08:19:10 – 00:08:27:34
Jess Eskra
But yeah, fine. Let me ask you because I, I get anxious beforehand, but once a minute I’m just in the moment and I yeah.
00:08:27:36 – 00:08:31:57
Agent Palmer
I mean for, for this. Yeah. What.
00:08:32:02 – 00:09:04:44
Agent Palmer
I mean there are, there are times when it takes longer to, to like loosen up. But. Yeah. But by about now, it’s gone whether it’s the best or the worst. And I’m just in it and it kind of like, I presume being in a rocket like I was. I still am fascinated with the old NASA. Okay, so I presume you can be as nervous as you want when you’re sitting going to the moon on the launch pad.
00:09:04:56 – 00:09:29:33
Agent Palmer
But once liftoff happens, you you there’s nothing to be nervous about anymore. It’s all out of your control. And so, I mean, yeah, to a certain extent, we are having a conversation and either of us could twist it in any way. I guess we’re both steering, but we’re on our way. Like the there’s there’s no turning back now.
00:09:29:33 – 00:09:41:38
Agent Palmer
So I like I, I feel like at this point you would have to be like looser or. Yeah, the nerves would be gone. I, I think the.
00:09:41:43 – 00:10:02:24
Agent Palmer
My, my level of anxiety beforehand has shrunk down like I used to be nervous for, like hours before the recording. And now it’s just like the half hour where I’m like getting everything set up and getting everything ready. It’s like, oh, there it is again. There’s there’s that feeling. I know, I know that feeling.
00:10:02:29 – 00:10:03:56
Jess Eskra
Yeah, definitely.
00:10:04:00 – 00:10:31:08
Agent Palmer
Now, aside from, you know, that meaning you’re prepared in some way. Do you want to just not have to go into court? Like, would you rather just manage the paperwork and the case loads and the writing or do you like being do you like the diversity? Do you like being in the courtroom? Which, by the way, I’ve served on jury duty well, twice.
00:10:31:13 – 00:10:39:30
Agent Palmer
Only once did it actually go to a trial. And like even just being on the jury, like when you sit in that room.
00:10:39:35 – 00:10:44:17
Jess Eskra
Is it stressful? I’ve never known what the. Yeah, it’s something about that.
00:10:44:19 – 00:11:12:46
Agent Palmer
It’s so, it was weird because and I think generally speaking, most people it depends on the trial. For me, though, the few times I’ve been not selected, like, it just feels like a weight of like, oh, this is responsibility. Like, because everybody’s like, do your civic duty. And it’s like, yeah, but can somebody else do it?
00:11:12:46 – 00:11:20:52
Agent Palmer
Like, I don’t know if I won’t, I don’t know if I’m ready for this level of responsibility. But when you get chosen.
00:11:20:56 – 00:11:52:19
Agent Palmer
Like there’s a different like it, it feels like you’re back at school and yet not prepared because you’re never like the one. And the case that I was on, it was around the holidays. And I’m pretty sure that, like, we went Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and then Friday, there was a recess. And then they settled some time over the weekend.
00:11:52:19 – 00:12:18:40
Agent Palmer
And like, Christmas was like Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday the next week. Christmas was the next week. So it ended up being that they they pushed it and then they settled. So we didn’t get to we didn’t make a decision. And it was a malpractice case and it was a whole thing. But like sitting there like in the jury box, you’re like, it’s it’s everything about school.
00:12:18:40 – 00:12:24:42
Agent Palmer
I hated. Because you don’t you only get one like. I mean.
00:12:24:47 – 00:12:30:12
Jess Eskra
Technically you can lawyer will be a good teacher, though, and they’ll give you what you need.
00:12:30:12 – 00:12:53:22
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but you know what? You know? You know what? That that might be true. But I, I, I may have fixated on the wrong things because it was medical. So, like, they were trying to they were trying to talk about like they were trying to make analogies and metaphors. They did not want to get into the science like.
00:12:53:22 – 00:13:16:46
Agent Palmer
And it was both sides. No, no, nobody wanted to get into like, the true science. Like we had one, like three hours of testimony from a doctor about the actual science. And the rest of it felt like metaphors of like, and it’s just like, I don’t I don’t know what I’m supposed to be doing. And I, you know, it was a diverse group.
00:13:16:55 – 00:13:35:47
Agent Palmer
It felt like a diverse jury, like I was this was a while ago, so I was 24. I was one of the younger people on it. But it just it felt like a responsibility I didn’t sign up for.
00:13:35:52 – 00:13:39:07
Jess Eskra
Yeah, but, like, I didn’t, I was.
00:13:39:12 – 00:14:14:05
Agent Palmer
But, like, it was just like, oh, man, what’s going on? And yeah, it’s I know, like sitting there, they’re giving you all the facts but like, yeah, consuming all the facts and making sure you take it in and it’s just it’s one of those things where like when, when I, when I think back on like the OJ trial and like the bigger like high value jury things, I’m like, I don’t, I like I, I think those people are saints.
00:14:14:10 – 00:14:27:18
Agent Palmer
Like, holy crap, that’s amazing. And I, it amazes me how many people I’m surrounded by that have never been even like, not even not chosen, just have never been drafted for selection.
00:14:27:23 – 00:14:36:09
Jess Eskra
I have to tell you, I’ve never had a good conversation with someone on a jury, so it’s a fascinating perspective.
00:14:36:14 – 00:14:57:28
Agent Palmer
Well, but I don’t there’s, there’s, there’s none of the people that were on my jury wanted to be there for various reasons. I think a lot of most of it was timing, right? Right. Like everybody’s like, I’m trying to get prepared for the holiday break, whether they be professionals or they just.
00:14:57:28 – 00:14:58:28
Jess Eskra
Got in the way, you know.
00:14:58:31 – 00:15:20:13
Agent Palmer
And it was just like, oh no, this is this is ruining my plans. Me, I was kind of pissed because, like, I was working retail at the time and that’s when I make my money. Like it was like, well, you’re not you’re not going to pay me. So there’s and and the entire jury kind of commiserated on like, well, this is shit like that.
00:15:20:22 – 00:15:22:14
Agent Palmer
It’s shit that we’re here.
00:15:22:19 – 00:15:23:53
Jess Eskra
Yeah.
00:15:23:58 – 00:15:46:22
Agent Palmer
But I just, I it feels like when, when I, when I see things happen where it’s like, this is a case without a jury, I’m like, well, why did they need me for, like, just like, can we just do that all the time? Yes, I don’t know. So have you ever. But you’ve been on jury selection.
00:15:46:27 – 00:16:13:16
Jess Eskra
I have not okay. So I guess a little bit of background in my legal world, what I kind of do. So, when I came out of law school, I originally did, family law. So I worked with a nonprofit organization that provided, free legal defense, legal representation to survivors of domestic violence. Okay, so that put me in family court.
00:16:13:16 – 00:16:41:05
Jess Eskra
I did a lot of custody work, divorce work. So a lot of litigation experience. I was in court quite frequently. But those are all bench trials because they’re in family court. So just a judge is deciding those cases. Okay. Now, in my work, with the city. So I represent the municipality and a whole host of, litigation type matters.
00:16:41:10 – 00:17:11:18
Jess Eskra
The cases I’ve been in court directly on were largely tax related. Also some interesting stuff about, interpretation of the city’s charter filling a mayoral vacancy, which was a whole crazy debacle. Those go before a judge or a panel of judges. There are also bench trials. I also help manage the defense of cases and federal court and just general civil matters and state court as well.
00:17:11:23 – 00:17:34:51
Jess Eskra
But those are typically covered through insurance. So we’re appointed insurance defense counsel. Okay. I’m still very hands on in those cases, but I am not the one trying them. I will help mediate them, where possible, to try to settle, to spare folks like you, agent farmer from jury duty. Yeah.
00:17:34:56 – 00:17:49:34
Agent Palmer
You’ve you’ve kind of been all over, and it sounds like generally out of law school, you’ve done, like, helping, and you’re not what the cliche would be of like the ambulance chaser or anything like that.
00:17:49:36 – 00:18:16:38
Jess Eskra
So I like to say that I took the most expensive degree possible and found a way to make the least amount of money doing it. Okay, so I feel like public service. Yeah. I, I work for the city now. It’s my only position. I don’t have a private practice. I yeah, complete. And that’s how a lot of lawyers.
00:18:16:43 – 00:18:29:53
Jess Eskra
What a lot of lawyers do. There’s legal aid, there’s, government work and the complete antithesis to sort of the. You mentioned ambulance service, but. Yeah.
00:18:29:58 – 00:18:55:09
Agent Palmer
Do you, do you want to like, write laws? Do you want to be a mayor? Do you want to be a referee, like, because outside of and I don’t maybe maybe I’m a little naive when it comes to this and I probably am. But like outside of majoring in political science, being a lawyer is a stepping stone to service.
00:18:55:14 – 00:19:11:04
Agent Palmer
Not not all the time, but it’s a common stepping stone. So, like, do you see yourself, like, with an ambition to be like, yeah, of course I want to run for mayor or district attorney or state representative. Like, is that like.
00:19:11:08 – 00:19:36:39
Jess Eskra
I it’s not why I set out on this path. This path kind of happened to me, which is super bizarre. I know most people go out with this intent. For me, it was just kind of the way my career evolved. Okay. But, I don’t see myself right now running for anything. And I do. You mentioned making laws.
00:19:36:39 – 00:20:02:09
Jess Eskra
I’m not a legislator, but I do write all the city ordinances, so that is cool. I get to craft. And so it’s a different hat, right? When you’re in the courtroom, it’s more defense, right? You’re defending something you’ve done. That’s typically the space we find ourselves in, in the litigation realm. And drafting ordinances, creating laws. It’s a much more prospective mindset.
00:20:02:09 – 00:20:16:46
Jess Eskra
You’re sort of problem solving into the future if I write it this way, how what will happen in this situation or how does it apply to this hypothetical? So it is a whole different aspect to the law. But it’s fascinating.
00:20:16:48 – 00:20:41:03
Agent Palmer
Does it does it permeate the rest of your life? Like there are there moments when, like you come home from writing something and thinking about how far in advance something might impact things, and you go like, oh, well, if I, if I do this in the house, like in five years, we won’t be able to move that couch again or just, you know what I mean?
00:20:41:03 – 00:20:46:11
Agent Palmer
Like, do you think long term about other things like is it.
00:20:46:16 – 00:21:06:21
Jess Eskra
Yeah, there’s definitely more of, malice as of cause and effect. I think. What are the unintended consequences of something? I would say I’m definitely more of a worrier. So they tell you when you go to law school, the whole purpose of it is to change the way that you think.
00:21:06:32 – 00:21:07:10
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:21:07:15 – 00:21:28:08
Jess Eskra
And it’s totally true. Everyone I graduated with from law school, every lawyer I know says absolutely false stuff. No question. You see those potential problems, potential areas of liability, kind of just permeate everyday life. That’s crazy.
00:21:28:19 – 00:21:53:11
Agent Palmer
I, I have a friend who’s in insurance who now also sees the world in, in, in that kind of a way where it’s like he he we walked into a building and he’s like, yeah. I wonder what the liability is on that thing right there. And I’m like, you just don’t don’t look at it like you’re off the clock.
00:21:53:24 – 00:22:00:03
Agent Palmer
Chill out buddy. You’re not, you’re not, you’re not forever. You’re not. You’re not writing them a policy like chill. It’s cool.
00:22:00:03 – 00:22:00:26
Jess Eskra
Right.
00:22:00:41 – 00:22:05:04
Agent Palmer
But I like I understand it. It can’t be easy.
00:22:05:09 – 00:22:10:43
Jess Eskra
You can’t turn it off. No, it’s just, it’s running. Running in the background at all times.
00:22:10:43 – 00:22:26:37
Agent Palmer
Now you’re helping people. You got out of law school, and you chose a path to help people. So I guess I would ask why. Why law school? Like, was that all was always the goal to to get a law degree and help people.
00:22:26:42 – 00:22:49:34
Jess Eskra
Or early on, I always wanted to go to law school. My mom from she, she always says, when I was really young, I was always obsessed with fairness. Right. Like, well, fair, where people being treated well, I’d pick up for the kid who was getting a stick up for the kid who was getting picked on, like, I gotcha.
00:22:49:39 – 00:23:18:00
Jess Eskra
And, I, I took a, government and law course and high school, and I really liked it. So I loved the teacher. So I started in the Mock trial Club. I really loved that. So then when I went to, I went to Temple University for my undergrad poly sci and again, just gravitated towards, I had a specialty concentration in philosophy.
00:23:18:00 – 00:23:27:27
Jess Eskra
Like I love debating, I loved, arguing in the abstract. My, my parents would probably tell you I still do that to a fault.
00:23:27:32 – 00:23:54:05
Agent Palmer
I still I’m not. I didn’t take a philosophy course. I think I may have taken one philosophy course as an undergrad, but I love all of that. Like I, I will debate in the abstract to no end. I will even fight to the abstract in no end. And, I, I’m I’m cool with it. Like, it’s just there’s a it.
00:23:54:09 – 00:24:21:29
Agent Palmer
I feel like there’s a part of me that likes debate better than I do, like writing or creating something because it’s a live puzzle that because I’m talking to you and debating you, it’s always changing. Like, I can know you pretty well and still not know that you’re going to, like, pull out some random thing that I just didn’t expect or like, you know, who knows what direction you’re going to go?
00:24:21:29 – 00:24:42:19
Agent Palmer
And it’s like, oh, I you know, in that regard, it’s like a boxing match. It’s like, well, if you don’t dodge, if you don’t ever come back, you’re done. Right? But you have to think on your feet. You got to talk it out. And outside of the law and the courtroom, like you and you could, you could let me talk myself into circles.
00:24:42:19 – 00:24:49:39
Agent Palmer
I might actually talk my way out of it. Like I might talk myself into a good point. Like that I it’s.
00:24:49:39 – 00:25:05:42
Jess Eskra
True with law to laws just using a specific set of rules and procedures. Right. There’s your rules of the courtroom, your civil procedure and the laws. It’s just a match. It’s the same concept. It’s just you’ve got two specific rule books.
00:25:05:47 – 00:25:12:57
Agent Palmer
And you, you start law school, which is not a guarantee to a finish of law school.
00:25:13:02 – 00:25:31:51
Jess Eskra
Right? So like I took time off at and after undergrad, I started, working in a law firm because I was like, I don’t I just don’t know yet. I ended up working there for four years, and I was doing a lot of the lifting. By the end of my time there, I was like, you know what?
00:25:31:51 – 00:25:36:55
Jess Eskra
I should just go, okay, I’m. I’m there anyways. I might as well just try it.
00:25:37:00 – 00:25:48:08
Agent Palmer
I, I, I know this is a dangerous question, but like, had you not spent four years coding, you know, I guess trying before you buy.
00:25:48:13 – 00:25:49:09
Jess Eskra
Yeah.
00:25:49:14 – 00:25:51:58
Agent Palmer
Do you think you still would have gone to law school?
00:25:52:03 – 00:25:52:57
Jess Eskra
No idea.
00:25:53:04 – 00:25:54:02
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:25:54:07 – 00:26:09:52
Jess Eskra
Probably, I don’t know. I don’t know if I would have been called back to it. It was something that I was always interested in. But had I gone down a different path, if I had gotten comfortable in really set up, I don’t know if I would have made that leap.
00:26:09:57 – 00:26:40:22
Agent Palmer
It’s because it’s I. I finished halfway through, I want to say like sophomore junior year of my undergrad. I was convinced that it would be fun to stay in school forever. By the time I graduated, I was like, I’m never going back to school ever again. And I don’t, I don’t know, like something changed in that little bit.
00:26:40:22 – 00:26:46:20
Agent Palmer
I was like, I, I grew out of it. I was done with it, I don’t know. But like, I was like, I cannot.
00:26:46:25 – 00:27:04:35
Jess Eskra
I can’t. I was right on the cusp. I had been out for about four years. So it was like, I mean, it was do or die time. Like I was either gonna set myself up doing staying on the track I was on, or it was time to just go all in and take that leap. And I happened to come across.
00:27:04:35 – 00:27:23:42
Jess Eskra
So we had a client at the time who happened to be an al SAT tutor. And so, he gave me some free tutoring. I took the assets. It did really well, applied and got a scholarship to law school, which is really rare. Right. So I just went for it.
00:27:23:47 – 00:27:57:18
Agent Palmer
So you get out, you’re helping people. Are you living that? I mean, and ignoring the money. Because I know that that’s a whole different kind of, stratosphere. And you can take different zigs and zags if money was more of a priority than helping people. But you’re helping people. You know, in Rob’s episode, Rob talks about, like, calling up one of his old professors after about like, two and a half years ago and like, I don’t like this.
00:27:57:18 – 00:28:20:44
Agent Palmer
And he’s like, this is not uncommon. Like there’s there’s always not for everybody. But some people get to that moment and go, this isn’t for me. Did did you even have that moment like, or was it just like from the moment go, I’m helping people. I’m cool. This is great. I’m. I’m into this. And then never looked back.
00:28:20:49 – 00:28:47:37
Jess Eskra
I would say, I’ve not really ever had buyer’s remorse. I do enjoy thoroughly what I do some aspect x aspects of it more than others, but I would say there’s definitely moments where the work is hard. It’s not glamorous. And you kind of go, oh, maybe I should have picked an easier path like this is this is tough.
00:28:47:37 – 00:28:57:09
Jess Eskra
There’s there’s heartbreak. There’s ups and downs. It’s not always as gratifying as you would want it to be.
00:28:57:23 – 00:28:59:44
Agent Palmer
Are you good at compartmentalizing that, though?
00:28:59:49 – 00:29:18:15
Jess Eskra
Yes and no. There’s there’s part of me that pines for the private practice days, right? Where you pick up a file, you work on it, you push it as hard as you can, you do well for your client, and then you get to put it down right? Yeah. And move on to the next file. And this is different.
00:29:18:15 – 00:29:28:42
Jess Eskra
So I’m, general legal counsel internally for the government. It’s all mine, all the time.
00:29:28:42 – 00:29:31:49
Agent Palmer
There’s no end. There’s always something new and.
00:29:31:49 – 00:29:44:03
Jess Eskra
Right. And so that’s tough. And and you become personally invested in the work then. And so there’s, there’s moments of heartbreak, there’s moments of struggle.
00:29:44:10 – 00:30:13:56
Agent Palmer
But unlike putting the file down where you might get a break in between files even for a little bit, you you don’t get that now you’re on the and I while this is nowhere near similar, this podcast doesn’t have seasons. I’m on. I’m I’m on the grind until whenever I drop. Basically. Yeah. And, every time people ask about starting a show, I’m like, do seasons?
00:30:14:01 – 00:30:15:59
Agent Palmer
Like, don’t make me.
00:30:16:03 – 00:30:16:23
Jess Eskra
Yeah.
00:30:16:25 – 00:30:21:01
Agent Palmer
Be able to, like, have a start and a stopping point and then choose to start again.
00:30:21:05 – 00:30:49:59
Jess Eskra
Oh, God. Yeah. I look at Rob, who has his life as organized and semesters. Right. Because he’s in academia, he’s in the college world. And I’m like, oh God, that sounds so nice. Like you got a fresh start in September. No matter what happens, you got a blank slate. It’s, and I have cases close. I’ll have certain matters, you know, I’ll come to a conclusion, but like I said, and we have legislative calendars, right?
00:30:49:59 – 00:31:16:30
Jess Eskra
So that has a cycle to it. But there’s always contracts. There’s always legal advice. So I give legal advice. I only have a staff of four full time attorneys. Okay. It’s myself. And then I have three full time assistants. But we give legal advice, so our staff is about 500 or so employees.
00:31:16:32 – 00:31:18:49
Agent Palmer
That’s not a good. That’s that’s a.
00:31:18:54 – 00:31:20:46
Jess Eskra
What’s the average. Yeah.
00:31:20:51 – 00:31:22:29
Agent Palmer
You say that’s.
00:31:22:34 – 00:31:51:32
Jess Eskra
For doing all the legislation, the litigation, the contracts, the legal advice. And it’s the entire fire department. It’s the entire police department. It is the entire public works department. It’s all of the city hall staff. It’s anything from tax issues to, search and seizure law to property disputes, code enforcement. So it is a wide arena that we kind of have to cover.
00:31:51:32 – 00:32:17:14
Agent Palmer
So I know that there is like the League of Cities and like the convention of mayors or whatever they’re called. Like, I know there are these kind of things. Is there like, I don’t know, a support group for other people in your position around the country where, like, you can talk to people that are in municipalities bigger than you and smaller than you or like.
00:32:17:19 – 00:32:39:13
Jess Eskra
I know of none. I know in Pennsylvania they were trying to have. And that’s the other thing. Right. So you may have some universal issues that are across the board, but when you were looking at municipal law, it is very much state specific and it is very much tailored to your category or classification of municipality based on size.
00:32:39:15 – 00:32:39:57
Jess Eskra
Yeah.
00:32:40:02 – 00:32:48:10
Agent Palmer
And so and I, I, I have to ask this question. Municipalities change size all the time. So how much.
00:32:48:15 – 00:32:56:49
Jess Eskra
You can change classification. It’s more difficult than not to do that. So it’s pretty rare. Okay.
00:32:56:54 – 00:33:02:07
Agent Palmer
So you don’t have to worry about everything. You’ve just been doing changing because, like.
00:33:02:11 – 00:33:28:30
Jess Eskra
I would you keep it on a dime? No, it would not happen on a dime. It would, it would. It’s due to the train coming. But, you know, it is fascinating. So the city that I represent and Pennsylvania is the only city of its size, the only one that’s classified as a two, a city. Okay. So we are an island unto ourselves.
00:33:28:35 – 00:33:52:34
Jess Eskra
And we’re governed by our own home rule charter, which makes it even more, specifically tailored. So we don’t necessarily have to follow that code. We, we follow our own charter. That was adopted by the residents, by referendum, by and through a commission now. So it’s like we have our own sort of little constitution book unto ourselves.
00:33:52:34 – 00:34:16:15
Agent Palmer
So at the beginning of this, I asked you about myths about lawyers. Yeah, but you have to in your position here, myths about governance like all the time. Right. Like there has to be people that come up and go, well, you work for the city, right? Like you can just fix this for me.
00:34:16:20 – 00:34:19:07
Jess Eskra
Oh, sure. Yeah.
00:34:19:12 – 00:34:27:51
Agent Palmer
Do you wish that that would stop? Do you like it? And, like, how much do you wish we could just pause everything and educate people better?
00:34:27:55 – 00:35:00:02
Jess Eskra
Oh, yeah. A lot of people, I, I always find that somewhat alarming and disconcerting. I think I think there are a lot of people who are really dedicated and knowledgeable. And kudos to them. Really appreciate them. Then there’s, I think a fair portion of the population that doesn’t understand the law, but is nonetheless very opinionated.
00:35:00:07 – 00:35:28:17
Jess Eskra
They don’t understand the government or the way things work. But yet still. And I get that right. Like, I don’t want to understand the code or the ordinance. I just want you to fix my problem. Yeah, that’s the level of local government that we are at. And I absolutely get that. You know, that. And that’s what our job is, is therefore, I will tell you, I dealt with some really complex legal issues.
00:35:28:17 – 00:35:52:13
Jess Eskra
I litigated, I was in a hearing for 8.5 hours this week, but I still have emails with this woman who was really bothered by the storage pod next to her house that wasn’t in the right spot, and nobody would listen to her. And because she saw me at this hearing, she found my email and she sent me pictures and she was just like, I’m just want somebody to help me.
00:35:52:17 – 00:36:15:21
Jess Eskra
I got it fixed for her before Friday. So that’s why you do what you do, right? And she doesn’t want to lecture on this ordinance or the state statute or why? You know, I it’s just she just wants you to fix her problem. And if you can find a way to do that, kudos to you.
00:36:15:26 – 00:36:26:14
Agent Palmer
I mean, I think a lot of people are in that boat. I would also say a lot of people are in the other boat where it’s like, I saw this on an episode of SVU.
00:36:26:18 – 00:36:26:47
Jess Eskra
Or like.
00:36:26:47 – 00:36:33:35
Agent Palmer
Just the proliferation of law shows that people are using.
00:36:33:35 – 00:37:03:14
Jess Eskra
Yeah, there’s a real basic misunderstanding. I think, of some really general concepts in law and in government. So kind of switching gears, I did teach a course, at one of our local colleges. For a semester, I taught political sociology. I had third and fourth year students. So I had designed this beautiful class. They were going to make their own government, and I was going to be great.
00:37:03:14 – 00:37:27:22
Jess Eskra
And, we were going to do some comparative aspects, look at other countries, other structures of, you know, democracy and other forms of government. I walked in and I could not get one student on the first day to name the three branches of government for me. I know, I know, but you just did exactly what I.
00:37:27:27 – 00:37:57:16
Agent Palmer
Said I don’t like, I don’t, I think I’m smart. I don’t think I’m a genius. But like, I don’t know how that’s not how. How can people not know that? I don’t know, by the way, I was just it’s executive, judicial and legislative. Like they’re like, just just for anybody who’s like, well, he’s just saying that like, no, I mean, I know what it is, but I think I knew what it was in seventh grade.
00:37:57:16 – 00:38:00:00
Agent Palmer
I don’t know, I.
00:38:00:05 – 00:38:09:57
Jess Eskra
I yeah, there are moments where I’m concerned, okay, about the state of this country and where we’re going because of education.
00:38:09:58 – 00:38:39:10
Agent Palmer
But doesn’t this make you want to, you know, take that step up and, you know, be the mayor or the state representative or the governor, you know what I mean? Like, doesn’t it? Yeah. Like it’s got to balance that. You also know how the sausage is made. So like you, you’re you’re not coming in as like, well, I’m just going to get elected and change things like, you understand what it takes to change them.
00:38:39:15 – 00:38:41:47
Agent Palmer
But like, you still have to kind of want to.
00:38:41:52 – 00:39:13:27
Jess Eskra
Like I do, I do want to help facilitate change. I know in my small way, when I get platforms, because I do speak sometimes at city council meetings or in larger professional settings, try to really explain things in a basic way. My goal is to educate people. So you mentioned earlier about the jury and not understanding and it being more of an opinion based.
00:39:13:32 – 00:39:40:20
Jess Eskra
Yeah. Bantering them. I think a good lawyer educates, right? You’re not supposed to know every aspect of the law. You’re not supposed to know the facts or the story of each case. But let me explain it all to you in a palatable way. So it’s not intimidating. I don’t ever want people to feel dumbed down or stupid or, you know, this is tough stuff.
00:39:40:31 – 00:39:56:49
Jess Eskra
Every case is difficult. Running a government is difficult. So being able to explain it in a way that’s palatable, that’s digestible, I think separates the good attorneys from those that are really subpar.
00:39:56:54 – 00:40:24:11
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I and I, I think the other thing is not not all lawyers. It’s that TV mentality of like, no, no, no, no, like you. Because I think, I think in the average television courtroom drama, there’s an objection and an overrule like every 30s or something like that. And I was on the air. I sat there for four days.
00:40:24:11 – 00:41:10:31
Agent Palmer
I think there might have been one objection, right. Like just the pace of things and the real back and forth is very different. Yeah. I, I did do you do you think that, you change and I’ll make this personal so it’s not just general, but like, do you think you change when you know, like it’s an open door session and the press shows up, or you look in the, in the gallery and there’s like 15 citizens as opposed to just like an empty bench, like, does it change the way whatever you prepared, you know, does it change your performance, so to speak?
00:41:10:36 – 00:41:36:08
Jess Eskra
Yeah, I, I would say so. Because I’m not just trying to then convince a judge or if I’m even at a city council meeting, like convince council to vote my way on something. It is a it is an educational platform. It’s a chance to explain. I think a lot of people get disheartened by government because they don’t understand what’s going on.
00:41:36:21 – 00:41:37:28
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:41:37:33 – 00:41:55:10
Jess Eskra
And so if I can help you understand and take you along this journey with me, win, lose or draw, it’s still a win in a sense that, like, at least there’s an educated populace. To your point that we were kind of talking about earlier.
00:41:55:17 – 00:41:58:04
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I mean, I.
00:41:58:04 – 00:42:18:49
Jess Eskra
Don’t want anybody to ever feel like, oh, I have no idea what she just said. I’m dumb. I should just check out. Right? Like, if I see eyes glaze over, I’ve lost you and I’m not doing my job because my client isn’t just the some more Morpheus entity. It’s not just government for the sake of government, it’s people.
00:42:18:51 – 00:42:19:33
Jess Eskra
Right?
00:42:19:37 – 00:42:24:47
Agent Palmer
That’s it. Do you want to get into education that at some point.
00:42:24:52 – 00:42:30:44
Jess Eskra
I taught a class and I don’t have the patience for it? I it’s it’s I.
00:42:30:44 – 00:42:54:18
Agent Palmer
Don’t know, I mean, look, I, I, we’ve been talking in generalizations because it’s safer for the both of us. But like, I can only imagine that you’ve needed a lot of patience in some of your research and your writing. And like I, I, I, I don’t want to be mean, but like when I was in college, I rewrote a set of bylaws.
00:42:54:30 – 00:43:18:31
Agent Palmer
Okay. And I was in court. I didn’t know anything. And that’s why you go to college to learn things. And I could read the quote unquote legalese that these things were written in, and I could write it. Yeah. I’d never want to do it again. I’ve done it once. That’s. That’s enough for me.
00:43:18:36 – 00:43:19:49
Jess Eskra
Yeah.
00:43:19:54 – 00:43:42:53
Agent Palmer
But at the same time, people look at those documents and they go, none of this. Now this shit makes sense. What are you. What are you talking about? And it’s like, I, I get some of the issues when we talk about, like, constitutional issues because things are written in, Not not plain English, but they. But they also are written in English.
00:43:42:53 – 00:43:45:27
Agent Palmer
Like, you can understand what it is. And I think it’s just.
00:43:45:40 – 00:43:49:07
Jess Eskra
Unnecessarily they’re using outdated. Yeah.
00:43:49:16 – 00:43:50:41
Agent Palmer
That’s the. Yeah.
00:43:50:46 – 00:44:16:52
Jess Eskra
So actually couple of things pretty cool. Contract law has now the newer school of thought is to move away from that. Oh, nice. No wherefores. There’s no here. And afters. There’s none of that. A good solid contract is going to be plain English, black and white. You can’t hide behind it. And the average person can understand it.
00:44:16:52 – 00:44:22:12
Jess Eskra
And I’m a big proponent of that. I actually have a book that I made all my assistants read about.
00:44:22:12 – 00:44:23:13
Agent Palmer
That sounds.
00:44:23:13 – 00:44:56:49
Jess Eskra
Amazing. I mean, more of that outdated crap. Nice. I also, so we do legislation and that is stylistically a lot of that old school. And I, I do appreciate the history of it all. But we’ve started, over the last few years. We do cover sheets now that go with every piece of legislation. And it is pretty basic who, what, when, where, why, how much.
00:44:57:01 – 00:45:15:36
Jess Eskra
Okay. And anybody and that’s public record. It’s on the website. It’s posted to the agenda. So anybody that picks that up should be able to understand what’s going on. And I think they’re just those are some of the little things. But I think it’s a big deal. I think it’s important. Right.
00:45:15:36 – 00:45:43:13
Agent Palmer
Oh, I think it would make a huge difference. I mean, I, I stay away from a lot of it, but like, you can’t avoid the internet and like talking heads, talking about law in some respect. And if you turn on two channels, you’re going to hear two opinions. And that’s not necessarily because of the law itself, but most of the arguments are by and far unrelated to what’s written on the page.
00:45:43:18 – 00:45:43:41
Jess Eskra
Right.
00:45:43:41 – 00:46:06:16
Agent Palmer
And, I, I don’t think a cover sheet’s going to solve it as far as the media goes, but I think as far as the people in the middle, the people that are getting, you know, that aren’t on the extreme left or the extreme right of things, they will be able to pick up this cover sheet and go, oh, so generally it helps me.
00:46:06:21 – 00:46:07:56
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I’m willing to spend a little money.
00:46:08:10 – 00:46:22:23
Jess Eskra
Either I love it or I hate it, and I’m going to be able to suss that out pretty quick. Yeah, I read it. You know, it’s I’m not going to win everybody over with everything that I try to accomplish, but at least they know.
00:46:22:28 – 00:46:37:40
Agent Palmer
Do you think, generally speaking, we’re headed in a direction where, like, you know, laws will start to kind of. Devolve into plain English and we’re going to get rid of the whereas and the, you know.
00:46:37:40 – 00:46:52:38
Jess Eskra
I don’t know because I don’t at least in my state, I feel like there’s a lot of outdated stuff that on the books that should be cleaned up. And it just isn’t it just lingers because politically we don’t want to touch it right.
00:46:52:43 – 00:47:16:40
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah. I mean, also it it’s one of those things that unless you can come up with a way to make it a voting issue, which becomes an issue for me as an intelligent person, because I’m like, well, not everything’s a voting issue. You’re not going to get elected on cleaning up the books, but someday down the road, somebody’s going to be very happy that they picked up this book and could read it like.
00:47:16:45 – 00:47:50:30
Jess Eskra
Yeah, I think, we’re also legislating things to death. Things have gotten so complex. Like, I know we’ve expanded the law department, where I work because there are so many rules. It’s it’s hard for a lay person to understand what’s what’s allowable, what’s not, what the process is. Especially like you look at the so we do have have some federal funding.
00:47:50:35 – 00:48:04:44
Jess Eskra
Oh my God the to just contract and to understand when you can do certain things when you can’t like it’s it’s a lot to unpack and I think unnecessarily so at times.
00:48:04:44 – 00:48:19:25
Agent Palmer
I, I’m just happy that someone in your position thinks this as well because like, there’s, there’s, there are plenty of people I could have sat down across from that would been like, well, that’s the way it is. You got to go to law school to understand it.
00:48:19:30 – 00:48:33:30
Jess Eskra
And then those are the lawyers that are making lots and lots of money by the hour. Okay. Me, I want the simple expedited like is there a reason for this? Can I do it can I not? How do I tell my client.
00:48:33:37 – 00:48:34:38
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean the.
00:48:34:38 – 00:48:35:03
Jess Eskra
One.
00:48:35:14 – 00:48:55:50
Agent Palmer
We should. You and I should start like a small consulting business where it’s like somebody, somebody, somebody is like, this is what it. This is my contract of 500 pages and, you know, you’re like, explain it to my aunt. And it’s like, well, in 500 words, I’ve summed up this 500 pages clearly. We don’t need these 500 pages anymore.
00:48:55:50 – 00:48:58:55
Agent Palmer
We’ve just saved ourselves all this time.
00:48:59:00 – 00:49:12:10
Jess Eskra
Yes. And a lot of money from private attorneys who bill by the hour.
00:49:12:15 – 00:49:35:44
Agent Palmer
It’s not a political statement to say that people get disheartened by government because they don’t understand what’s going on, but I believe that Jess has explained to me that there is some good stuff happening at local levels that is worth noting, and more than that, worth perpetuating up to regional, state and national government. Jess wants to facilitate change.
00:49:35:48 – 00:50:13:38
Agent Palmer
I believe she already is making sure that text of legislation is simpler and more straightforward, cover sheets that make laws and legislation more approachable and understandable, one cover sheet at a time. These are not necessarily groundbreaking ideas, but they are not only simple to do, they are in practice. Now. We could all use more good government, and if someone like Jess is willing to take the most expensive degree possible and make the least amount of money with it all for the sake of public service, we should hope that there are more like her out there, and I believe there are.
00:50:13:43 – 00:50:38:49
Agent Palmer
And they’re fighting an uphill battle because, as we discussed, not everything is a hot button issue. Not everything will have pundits and talking heads debating on the screen of your choosing day in and day out. And if you would just shut out those voices, you may just hear or see Jess making roads better and making lives better for the fellow members of her own community, one small issue at a time.
00:50:38:54 – 00:50:59:12
Agent Palmer
Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 119. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion in the show notes. You can find more information and ways to contact myself where you want and I can pass along any messages to Jess, who’s fairly off line.
00:50:59:16 – 00:51:20:07
Agent Palmer
The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:51:20:11 – 00:51:50:44
Agent Palmer
You.
00:51:50:49 – 00:51:57:57
Agent Palmer
See? All right. Do you have one final question for me?
00:51:57:57 – 00:52:12:50
Jess Eskra
I do, Agent Palmer. So my question for you would be based on our conversation, do you feel that you have a positive outlook on lawyers, a negative one, or are you neutral?
00:52:12:55 – 00:52:43:47
Agent Palmer
Oh, man. That’s a tough question. I mean, I, I think that your citizens are in good hands. I have I have a positive outlook on you. I, I don’t, I don’t know, I mean, generally speaking, I have a positive outlook on lawyers because most of the lawyers I’ve run into socially are similar to you where they’re just trying to help.
00:52:43:52 – 00:53:09:25
Agent Palmer
But then again, I don’t know any of those private attorneys that are billing by the hour and making a lot of money. And even the one time I needed a private lawyer, it was, Unfortunately, more and more like that long contract bullshit. Or, like, I probably could have done it myself had it been written in English.
00:53:09:30 – 00:53:46:41
Agent Palmer
Right. But I don’t have a I want to have a positive view on it. I think if I never turned my TV on again, I would have nothing but positive, like, you know, idea of lawyers. But I think the problem ends up being that I turn on the TV and there’s a talking head that’s not a congressman, and it’s not a representative, and it’s not a mayor or a senator, and it’s just like lawyer, like just like economist.
00:53:46:41 – 00:53:56:39
Agent Palmer
I hate economist, I that that one drives me nuts to just general like lawyer who’s just like talking. And it’s like you’re.
00:53:56:51 – 00:53:58:12
Jess Eskra
The head lawyer.
00:53:58:12 – 00:54:20:32
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I’m, I’m done with the talking head lawyers. And honestly, I, I’m, I’m not a big fan of like, I didn’t watch suits. I wasn’t the biggest fan of, like, any of the law and orders. I, I remember a ton of stuff from the West Wing because that was one of my favorite shows.
00:54:20:37 – 00:54:25:42
Jess Eskra
Love the West. So isn’t that the idealistic world of, like, lawyers and government?
00:54:25:44 – 00:54:37:35
Agent Palmer
Well, it is because you, you had a scenario where there were episodes where the left and the right would have breakfast together and fix something, as opposed to just yelling in the press, which is.
00:54:37:40 – 00:54:38:27
Jess Eskra
What we have.
00:54:38:39 – 00:54:40:02
Agent Palmer
What we have.
00:54:40:07 – 00:54:46:51
Jess Eskra
For the record, I have no, babish that is my role, but I do not have the same,
00:54:46:55 – 00:55:00:47
Agent Palmer
All right. But but what was the, John Larroquette? Do you have a cricket back? Cricket? Bat from, because John Larroquette played the the the the chief guy before Babish.
00:55:00:52 – 00:55:01:15
Jess Eskra
Right.
00:55:01:15 – 00:55:03:12
Agent Palmer
And he had a cricket bat. Do you have a cricket bat?
00:55:03:14 – 00:55:03:59
Jess Eskra
I mean.
00:55:04:04 – 00:55:06:39
Agent Palmer
You should get we should get somebody should get you a cricket bat because.
00:55:06:48 – 00:55:09:39
Jess Eskra
My son does want to play cricket. Yeah, actually.
00:55:09:42 – 00:55:10:04
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:55:10:09 – 00:55:12:04
Jess Eskra
Get get in the cards.
00:55:12:04 – 00:55:21:42
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I’m just saying that would be baller. Like, that’d be great. But, also on the Wednesday night, NBC lineup of that era was my favorite law show of all time.
00:55:21:47 – 00:55:22:30
Jess Eskra
What’s that?
00:55:22:32 – 00:55:24:15
Agent Palmer
Ed?
00:55:24:20 – 00:55:25:30
Jess Eskra
I didn’t see that one.
00:55:25:32 – 00:55:51:00
Agent Palmer
No. Nobody has. It’s just like me and, like, four people. But Ed was the bowling alley lawyer, and it was all at Ed. It was like 3C4 seasons, three four. See, I think it was four seasons. And Ed like it’s the most cliche late 90s, or early 2000 like thing like he literally is a, a lawyer in a big city law.
00:55:51:02 – 00:56:06:29
Agent Palmer
This is the pilot I’m describing. Oh, he’s a lawyer in a big city law firm. And he makes one mistake on a 500 page contract. But it’s like where the comma is, so he loses a comma. What.
00:56:06:33 – 00:56:07:43
Jess Eskra
An Oxford comma.
00:56:07:45 – 00:56:27:52
Agent Palmer
No, no, no, this is like a comma in like, numbers. Like it’s like 100,000 instead of 10,000 or something like that. And so he gets fired, finds out his, his wife is sleeping with the mailman, and then he goes home and ends up buying the old bowling alley in his hometown and starting a law practice, a small town law practice.
00:56:27:57 – 00:56:56:02
Agent Palmer
And and that is been my favorite because it’s it’s kind of like, like some of the other, like, country like city lawyer goes to country movies that we’ve seen, and it’s kind of like that. But I it’s the thing about that show specifically, which is why I like it more than any of the others, is because when it comes to the law, it’s generally just him trying to help people.
00:56:56:02 – 00:57:18:13
Agent Palmer
I don’t honestly, he did fairly well as an independent, and nobody ever really talks about how he makes money because he’s always taking like pro bono or like he’s just the good. He’s just the cliche good lawyer who’s like, yeah, wait, so you just need to turn your electricity on, you know, like, and he’s just gets a notepad out and starts writing like, that’s that’s what I want.
00:57:18:13 – 00:57:29:44
Agent Palmer
All lawyers, I just, I, I want them to do it for the good of do like I know law school is expensive. Yeah, but I want them to do it for the sake of doing something good.
00:57:29:49 – 00:57:30:38
Jess Eskra
Yep.
00:57:30:43 – 00:57:32:31
Agent Palmer
And and not that. Yeah.
00:57:32:36 – 00:57:54:08
Jess Eskra
That’s funny you said that. So I have, like, a little bulletin board in my office, and I just won, like, a potentially, like, multi-million dollar pension case. But the thing that’s on my bulletin board right now is the thank you letter from the lady, because I moved the storage pad in front of her house that was blocking her parking spot.
00:57:54:12 – 00:57:55:35
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I.
00:57:55:50 – 00:57:57:41
Jess Eskra
Like, so I’m all about it.
00:57:57:55 – 00:58:08:52
Agent Palmer
I, I know I’m going to have to send you some links. It’s definitely it’s, it’s and it’s wholesome. That’s the other thing too. Like the one that’s real good.
00:58:08:52 – 00:58:11:12
Jess Eskra
It does. It just makes me feel good.
00:58:11:14 – 00:58:34:49
Agent Palmer
And the law doesn’t need to be like, I think we’ve spent too much time in front of the TV. It’s like we’ve we’ve we’ve officially established that the law is, a unreadable and unknowable, and b, it’s sexy and flashy and dangerous, and it really is. It’s words on the page. It’s no more dangerous than any other book.
00:58:34:49 – 00:58:37:40
Agent Palmer
Like it, it or it shouldn’t be.
00:58:37:45 – 00:58:46:39
Jess Eskra
And I just I started this out by debunking suits. I told you that none of that’s true. Yeah. This is so we came full circle. We went all the way around the horn.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).