Episode 143 features Hal Nathan, recent film school graduate and someone who’s just newly out of the structure of formal education and wondering what comes next.
We discuss that and how he got into film, writing, editing, what film school does and doesn’t prepare you for, accepting not bad, and much much more.
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
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–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:23:36
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. The satire of Franken’s Why Not Me is now just our reality. The weekend days of the week Shuffle playlist, and you’ll have to keep an eye out on Ken’s podcast, the comfortable spot for yours truly. This is The Palmer Files episode 143 with Hal Nathan, recent film school graduate and someone who’s just newly out of the structure of formal education and wondering what comes next.
00:00:23:49 – 00:01:05:42
Agent Palmer
We discuss that and how he got into film writing, editing. What film school does and doesn’t prepare you for accepting. Not bad and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:05:47 – 00:01:07:25
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files.
00:01:07:27 – 00:01:28:52
Agent Palmer
I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 143rd episode is how Nathan Hale is a recent film school graduate whom I met when he did a yet unreleased project for the podcast. I produce and edit The Good Government show. He is, by all accounts an aspiring visual storyteller, though as you’ll soon hear, he’s not quite sure what form that will take.
00:01:28:57 – 00:01:51:19
Agent Palmer
During the conversation, we discuss editing and exporting, rhythm and flow, leadership and experience, writing and acting, balance and structure, or lack thereof and all of that. And a whole lot more is coming your way shortly. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact my guest, Hal and myself in the show notes.
00:01:51:23 – 00:02:12:12
Agent Palmer
You can visit Hal’s website Hal nathan.com where you can see what he has hit publish on. Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, white on the set.
00:02:12:17 – 00:02:34:53
Agent Palmer
Hal, you are, freshly released from a post-graduate education, and obviously, you’re undergraduate and you want to get into film, so I’m just gonna reduce this down and ask you one question. What stories do you want to tell?
00:02:34:58 – 00:03:00:14
Hal Nathan
And I think, see, that’s that’s the problem is I just coming off the, the program and doing a little bit of everything. It’s even tough to say, I wrote in my first semester, I wrote a short film, Ron directed a short comedy, and that was a ton of fun. And moments, I loved it. And then at other moments, I would go through and I’d edit and I’d sit there and I’d go, wow, this is horrible and not funny.
00:03:00:14 – 00:03:01:26
Hal Nathan
This is the worst thing ever.
00:03:01:31 – 00:03:11:45
Agent Palmer
So all right. But that’s that’s an editing problem, though. That’s a, like I can go I mean, if you want to go there, like back in high school when you would write papers.
00:03:11:50 – 00:03:12:50
Hal Nathan
Oh, yeah.
00:03:12:55 – 00:03:22:19
Agent Palmer
Was the editing process similar? Like you’d write it down and then you’d go back and edit it and go, oh, this is horrible. Like, is it horrible? So that’s the same. That’s that’s a constant for you.
00:03:22:19 – 00:03:37:31
Hal Nathan
That was that was the thing that probably because at least I mean with the essays you’re only tool was an eraser. Okay. You just turn around and write a new sentence. So it was kind of easy. But we were learning all of the editing software and I was getting back into it, and I hadn’t done that for a little bit.
00:03:37:36 – 00:03:57:10
Hal Nathan
And I went in college and I was shooting, you know, other, other things. I was never I was always in the editing room, but I was never the editor. It was just not my I thought I was, like, good at editing. Flow and sort of learning the timing of things. And that was I was sharpening that skill.
00:03:57:23 – 00:04:13:57
Hal Nathan
But pushing the buttons was where I just everything would go down the drain, and I’d make one small move and I would know how to undo it. The amount of times that I called my friend over when I was, in the editing room and just said, hey, do you know how to do this thing? He’d be like, oh my God, yes, I know how to do this thing.
00:04:13:57 – 00:04:26:59
Hal Nathan
Like it’s this easy. And I just showed you five minutes ago, so, you know, I’m sitting there crossing my fingers at the export, hoping that I didn’t mess anything up at the last second when I was, you know, rendering all my footage or whatever. I but.
00:04:27:00 – 00:04:51:13
Agent Palmer
I know it’s vastly different on a scale to video, but like, even for podcasts like I’ve done, I’ve done more than 100 of these. Yeah. And when you count the ones I’ve done for other people, I’ve done almost thousands. You still always, if you don’t get nervous on export, publish is a finished product that you’re uploading somewhere, right.
00:04:51:13 – 00:05:12:08
Agent Palmer
Like that’s not the problem. But export exports, that’s the hard part. That’s the like, did I do everything right? Is this going to render when I’m done? Is it going to look like it sounded before before I hit export? Did I do anything that’s going to mess it up so the export doesn’t sound like it did or look like it did beforehand?
00:05:12:13 – 00:05:20:57
Agent Palmer
That will never change. I feel like when you when you don’t get nervous and you’re like, I think this is done, then you’re probably time to move on.
00:05:21:02 – 00:05:34:03
Hal Nathan
I think I’m slowly getting there. I’ve started exporting on, a more recent short film, which was not a comedy. So to answer your question, really don’t know totally what I mean.
00:05:34:08 – 00:05:36:08
Agent Palmer
But you’re doing it right like that.
00:05:36:08 – 00:05:37:40
Hal Nathan
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:05:37:42 – 00:06:06:12
Agent Palmer
I’ll say this I, I always have advice for podcasters like, don’t pigeonhole yourself. Like, dude, do create a show that’s as open as it can be because you don’t ever want to get bored or your audience will get bored, right? And I think that from a career standpoint, and I had this conversation the other day, because I told a guy that I produce podcasts and he’s like, it’s fun, right?
00:06:06:12 – 00:06:28:55
Agent Palmer
I was like, yeah, he’s like, do you make a lot of money? I was like, no, nothing. That’s fun. Makes you a lot of money that that is 100% the trade off. But by the same token, if you never get bored, you know, if you, if you, if you don’t say like only documentaries forever like, and you get bored of documentaries.
00:06:29:00 – 00:06:41:18
Agent Palmer
Well that’s sad for you but if you don’t pigeonhole yourself like the trade off will most of the time be worthwhile? I guess as long as you can feed yourself, you know, like, you know.
00:06:41:23 – 00:07:12:01
Hal Nathan
Pretty much. Yeah, I think it was that that was what was nice is something. There was always something new. Okay. And so I was always on a set with a different vibe and a different, story, and, you know, everybody’s directing style was different in their writing. So I read a lot of scripts. I helped polish some of them up, which was a lot of fun, and I just got to see what people were doing and where they wanted to go with, you know, storytelling.
00:07:12:01 – 00:07:43:04
Hal Nathan
And I think that probably helped open up the possibility to write the drama in the second semester and to, you know, not focus so much on comedy and stress over that editing process or stress over the editing process, which is what I was definitely doing. And yeah, it was a little it was more, I think the process was more intense because the, the, the story was certainly more, you know, emotional.
00:07:43:04 – 00:08:05:00
Hal Nathan
And I think that was it was important to, to handle that with care. But at the same time, it was also easy to communicate with everyone. Once I sort of took the pressure off, I think, which was what was really, now I think everybody was trying to get out of their shell.
00:08:05:00 – 00:08:07:33
Agent Palmer
Self pressure like, this is all coming from you.
00:08:07:33 – 00:08:07:56
Hal Nathan
Absolutely.
00:08:08:05 – 00:08:12:12
Agent Palmer
You basically when you get out of your own way, you’re good.
00:08:12:17 – 00:08:26:01
Hal Nathan
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it’s sometimes hard to tell when you’re doing that, when you’re not. And then all of a sudden you finish a project, you know, like, oh, you know what? That when I write and other times I finish something and I’m like, oh my God, I’m still thinking about it. And it’s, you know, behind me and whatever.
00:08:26:06 – 00:08:43:54
Hal Nathan
And yeah, I’d say it’s, you know, it’s tough to with filmmaking and anything creative, you have a whole you have an idea and you got a whole team that’s, you know, behind you and backing you and saying, all right, great. We love your idea. Let’s do this. And you go, okay, cool. So I can’t let anybody down.
00:08:43:54 – 00:09:14:28
Hal Nathan
And it’s, you know, it’s got to be this. It’s got to be that. And there are flashes of that. Absolutely. But once you get into a rhythm and you really establish what you’re doing and that, you know, you’re confident what you’re doing and you believe it, everyone else does. And you could see that transition from first, you know, the first semester of of learning things to the second semester of, you know, everybody really, really, frankly, you know, faking it until they make it and pretending like they’re, you know, a big budget Hollywood production.
00:09:14:28 – 00:09:16:32
Hal Nathan
And that’s kind of what we needed. That’s definitely what I needed.
00:09:16:46 – 00:09:42:02
Agent Palmer
Did you have the. So I know that, many, many decades ago, I would run around with a camcorder with friends now. Yeah. And we made some short films, some I hope, never see the light of day. But that’s a whole different story. Right? And I’m sure somebody’s got the the tape. I don’t know what kind of tape it is.
00:09:42:02 – 00:10:02:32
Agent Palmer
I know it wasn’t VHS, so it’s some kind of mini tape. I don’t know that it’ll ever get transferred to digital, so maybe I’m safe. Maybe I’m not. But when you’re hanging out with friends and somebody wants to take the lead, take direction, give direction, whatever, that’s easy. That’s friends. I’ve been, you know, we’ve been hanging out for years.
00:10:02:32 – 00:10:32:32
Agent Palmer
We’ve been, you know, you know, you know, whatever. When you get on a set, even with fellow students, it’s slightly different. It’s not just, oh, this is my friend Bill and my friend Bob, and we’ve been hanging out for 20 years or ten years or whatever. And was that like, what was the adjustment for like stepping into leadership role of people that aren’t just hanging out, you know, like everybody wants to be there and now it’s, hey, yeah, you got to put on that director’s hat.
00:10:32:32 – 00:10:35:56
Agent Palmer
But that also means, like, you’re in charge.
00:10:36:01 – 00:11:16:29
Hal Nathan
Yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s definitely strange. I think the the best part about, And I was studying in Prague at a small school called Prague Film School, and it’s. It was fantastic. And the best part about that experience, besides, obviously, that it was filmmaking, was the community. The community was small and tight knit and, everyone was there with the same mindset of, you know, we come from these backgrounds in film and we all want to get better, and we all want to make something and see if we can do this and see if we like this.
00:11:16:34 – 00:11:44:44
Hal Nathan
And, I think everyone was within the first few weeks, we were all like fast friends. And so there were certainly people that I didn’t I wasn’t necessarily like on sets with all the time and, and see all the time because everybody was doing different things. But I think, so, so when it came to, you know, working with people that were not necessarily my, you know, my close buddy or or whatever.
00:11:44:46 – 00:12:08:06
Hal Nathan
Yeah. I it was that that was easy to, to it was easy to communicate with those people because we were all there at the bare minimum to do a job, okay. And to make everyone’s projects, as successful as they can be. The tough part was when you had a bunch of people on set who you were good friends with.
00:12:08:10 – 00:12:08:56
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:12:09:01 – 00:12:37:55
Hal Nathan
And that was like, it felt like we all knew what we wanted to get out of the thing, but it was almost like how, you know, like turning 30, sort of turning on the professionalism and just being like, all right, let’s like, not go, you know, grab a drink this Friday and joke around. Let’s sit down and do the do the paperwork and like the, the scheduling and the planning and, I think at first it was definitely weird.
00:12:38:00 – 00:13:22:13
Hal Nathan
And, you know, it was like, come on, we know each other. What are we doing? Like, let’s just be normal. And eventually it was very easy once we were again, once, you know, we kind of took the pressure off of the whole project and relaxed. But it’s tough. It was tough. It’s it’s a it’s a there’s a weird line in between like friend and, you know, person in charge and how comfortable you feel with these people and, and you know, you want to make sure I think it was there’s also a weird stress of like making sure that you’re set and your project is, like, friendly to everyone and everybody’s not like, you know,
00:13:22:17 – 00:13:31:34
Hal Nathan
jolly having a good time like I want of course you want that. But just making sure everyone’s comfortable and everybody’s taken care of. And so there’s that in the back of your mind.
00:13:31:38 – 00:14:07:04
Agent Palmer
Do you have. But like before this, do you have any leadership experience at all? Like. And I mean, even even just like, you know, captain of a sports team, like, just some kind of leadership because this what you’re talking about is a completely different level than anything else. And and even as far as, like what we experience in, like, scholastic clubs where there’s always an advisor over your shoulder, even if you’re president of the club.
00:14:07:04 – 00:14:12:28
Agent Palmer
Like this, is not that so, like, did you have any thing?
00:14:12:28 – 00:14:45:22
Hal Nathan
I can’t say I had anything to. There wasn’t an advisor over your shoulder. I played Division three lacrosse in college, okay? And I was not a captain. But when you’re an upperclassman or a senior, you you’re expected to lead and to at least lead by example and keep. And, you know, make sure that, you know, your, your team is, is on the right track and are doing the right things and are, you know, getting better every day.
00:14:45:22 – 00:15:20:28
Hal Nathan
And so I wasn’t a captain. I was just another player. But, you know, even even then, it was you had a coach, you know, you had a coach, you an assistant coach and a defensive coordinator. You have an offensive coordinator, and they’re the ones who are setting up the drills and teaching this or that. So probably this was one of the first times that I think I was in a community that was just let loose, that where someone just said, you know, a bunch of professors said, we’re here to teach you, but we’re not on your set.
00:15:20:28 – 00:15:40:47
Hal Nathan
You know, like you’re coming in with script, story ideas and scripts and all this stuff. And that’s great. And we can help you. But, you know, you get assigned a certain week to shoot your film, and we’re not there. Like, you just go do it and figure it out. And we can only, you know, they can teach us what a good set environment looks like.
00:15:40:47 – 00:15:47:00
Hal Nathan
And how do you know what these jobs are and all that stuff. But at some point, it’s just.
00:15:47:04 – 00:15:48:15
Agent Palmer
You got to do it.
00:15:48:20 – 00:15:49:25
Hal Nathan
Yeah, you just got to do it.
00:15:49:39 – 00:16:23:30
Agent Palmer
So I. I want to ask the elephant in the room that I’m, I, I at least think about when explaining this, which is, you are you know, you’re and obviously you’re on other people set, so like, your director on your thing, but you might be the director of photography on somebody else’s thing. You might help with set design on somebody else’s thing, and as a script advisor on somebody else’s thing and all of those are fairly leadership heavy titles and roles in real major motion pictures.
00:16:23:35 – 00:16:44:24
Agent Palmer
And you have been in the industry at not at all. You know, you’re just out of college. Do they talk to you about like, hey, this is how you learn this stuff. But when you get out of here, you’re now going to be just a production, one of many production assistants, for a very long time. Unless you decide to go at your own.
00:16:44:24 – 00:16:54:51
Agent Palmer
Like, what do they prepare you for? What I can only assume is the long game. If you don’t want to just completely go independent, I think.
00:16:54:56 – 00:17:21:55
Hal Nathan
Yes and no. I think I’ll I’ll start with, getting an opportunity to be on any set and it doesn’t matter if it’s student or not. Is so. So, important. Okay. And, just learning like the industry and film language is huge. And so I think what, like a graduate program in film or any of these creative.
00:17:21:59 – 00:18:01:32
Hal Nathan
Well, I’ll just speak to film, but, what what a graduate program does is at least prepare you to, explore your own ideas and write scripts and assemble teams and take you through the very basic process of if you want to get something off the ground. This is how you do it. Okay. And then second, I think, you know, being a runner on somebody’s set and getting coffee, as you know, as well as being the cinematographer or the, you know, you know, a C or.
00:18:01:34 – 00:18:02:56
Agent Palmer
Or.
00:18:03:01 – 00:18:20:33
Hal Nathan
Even actor if you’re asked, I think that’s all super, super informative and, it’s, it’s it doesn’t really matter what you do as long as you’re doing something because I think you’re you’re learning, which I know is such a yes educational answer.
00:18:20:46 – 00:18:55:32
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s a little cliche, but it it is very but it’s still very much, like it’s such a I don’t want to use it because it’s such a derogatory term now even. Yeah. Coming off an election year, but like, it’s a very 1% job like. Yeah. And so and it might be less than a 1% job, like even if you decide to do it, I guess if you decide to do it on your own, like as a side hustle or a hobby, like that’s a different thing.
00:18:55:32 – 00:19:24:48
Agent Palmer
But if you want to make money at this thing, that’s a it’s got to be less than 1%. Even if you want to be like an assistant assistant director of photography or like, you know, like that or a an assistant assistant, second unit assistant, like it’s just yeah, it’s so tiny. Like, it it’s it feels like the and and I don’t I, I’m this is going to sound negative and there’s no other way to put it, but like, yeah, it’s it’s the opposite.
00:19:24:48 – 00:19:42:14
Agent Palmer
And you were an athlete but it’s the opposite of what athletics do in to for for pro sports. Right. Like if you want to play high school football that’s possible. There are hundreds of thousands of high schools.
00:19:42:19 – 00:19:42:48
Hal Nathan
00:19:42:53 – 00:20:10:41
Agent Palmer
If you want to go to the next level there are only thousands of colleges right. Like and so only the best of the best go there. And then from the thousands of colleges there are you know depending on where you go. But it’s, it’s a pyramid. It is not a pyramid to working in film or being an actor like, there you it’s almost like a, like a reverse funnel where it’s like, you anybody can do it.
00:20:10:41 – 00:20:35:11
Agent Palmer
There’s no kind of like from high school. We don’t take the, you know, we only take the best to get to college like, that’s a decision you make sure you’re getting out with, not the cream of the crop. You know, this is not about, like, what you are. It’s just numbers like, you may be the cream of the crop, but you’re also in there with like, a thousand other people, whereas the, like, the second string quarterback from high school never goes on to college.
00:20:35:11 – 00:20:51:08
Agent Palmer
Or maybe he. Right. You know, like, so what’s that like? Like it’s now not only just what you want to do, it’s super competitive and overabundance of like just bodies. Not even talent. Yeah.
00:20:51:13 – 00:21:03:08
Hal Nathan
It’s very that that can that can help answer your question with this in the second part, which is, in a way it is not helpful at all.
00:21:03:12 – 00:21:03:57
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:21:04:02 – 00:21:19:00
Hal Nathan
Because nothing is that’s like organized and linear. I think this is probably the first time in my life where things aren’t linear, and film as a career or getting into that industry arts.
00:21:19:00 – 00:21:23:02
Agent Palmer
I just creative in the arts is not. Yeah, linear.
00:21:23:04 – 00:21:41:25
Hal Nathan
It’s not linear, it’s not linear. And so it’s so weird to, you know, come back from that experience and college and high school and a, you know, a sort of a path that, you know, students set up for themselves.
00:21:41:29 – 00:21:45:38
Agent Palmer
And it’s so, so did you take any time off in between?
00:21:45:38 – 00:21:48:43
Hal Nathan
I no, not really.
00:21:48:43 – 00:22:11:07
Agent Palmer
So so you’re going from, you know, grades, you know, K through eight and then you’re going to high school and then you’re going to college and, and then you go to, post graduate school. And it’s kind of like it is very linear. And then you get out and there is no I mean, there are about a thousand next steps.
00:22:11:12 – 00:22:52:36
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And you get to choose and there is no path anymore. And I will tell you that if you can, whatever you’re feeling now know that that doesn’t go away. Because more and more, you know, I’ve got I’ve got some decades on you, but I’m not old enough to have experienced a linear career path. I don’t know anybody in my age group, which we’ll just go with 50 and under, even though I’m well under 50.
00:22:52:41 – 00:23:18:58
Agent Palmer
But even the people around me, none of our careers have ever been linear. Everybody I know that even the few that were lucky enough to get a gig at a college, no matter what that was, had setbacks or lateral moves, or like it was not the high school college. Get a degree, get a job, move up right like it was always something vastly different to that.
00:23:19:03 – 00:23:37:40
Agent Palmer
And now you, are in the arts. You’re not even in accounting. Like. And I’ve that’s the thing. This is the way that I bring it up. Right? Like, I know people in accounting that haven’t had linear careers. And that’s one of those safe bets that like, there’s an uncle in every family that’s like, you really want to be at the arts.
00:23:37:40 – 00:23:43:28
Agent Palmer
Are you sure you don’t want to just get a job and make money? Like there’s always one? Yeah. In the family.
00:23:43:29 – 00:23:43:35
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
00:23:43:36 – 00:24:10:34
Agent Palmer
Because you’re in arts now. Linear is you’re like, I’ve, one of the I, I like I’ve had too many podcast guests, but I had a, a movie producer on or a TV producer on and her, her career was is good and, well, like, she’s successful, but there are times in between shows because you, you can’t line it up.
00:24:10:34 – 00:24:26:23
Agent Palmer
Like when you’re going to leave a job, you know, like there’s if things end when they end and now they get canceled for no reason. And whatever you’re feeling now about not knowing what the next step is, just get comfortable with that. That’s all I’m saying. Like, it’s just.
00:24:26:27 – 00:24:35:40
Agent Palmer
The the way of the world and and creative. You’re going to meet a lot of great people. But that’s also what they’re going through too.
00:24:35:45 – 00:24:59:07
Hal Nathan
Yeah. Yeah. It’s funny, I had, a professor in college who said, was talking about. We had him for a theory class, so it was no filmmaking. You know, people in there were either, you know, going to do what I was trying to do, which is, you know, write and direct and all that stuff. And then we had people in there who were taking it as a credit because they needed an arts or philosophy or something credit.
00:24:59:07 – 00:25:22:53
Hal Nathan
And they were going to go off to med school and continue on what seems to be the most linear of, of the careers, which I, you know, not for me, but, he, he told us he said, I don’t remember what we were talking about, but he sort of stopped. The class broke down. He was like, look, you know, after this, all kinds of things are going to happen.
00:25:22:53 – 00:25:42:20
Hal Nathan
You don’t know what you’re going to be doing. You’ve no idea. You know, there’s no structure anymore. That’s it. And he said, I became a teacher because I stopped. I, you know, he finished college and, his masters. And he was like, I can’t do it without the structure. So now I’m here with you guys coming to class at the same time as you.
00:25:42:20 – 00:25:50:10
Hal Nathan
And I was like, never like it. So obvious yet. Makes sense. Like. Yeah. And he was like, I couldn’t get away from it, I needed it.
00:25:50:15 – 00:26:03:47
Agent Palmer
Okay. And I guess how are you now? I mean, you haven’t been out for as long as I have, but like, you’ve been out now, like what’s, what’s no structure like for you?
00:26:03:51 – 00:26:05:14
Hal Nathan
Brand new. Okay.
00:26:05:16 – 00:26:12:17
Agent Palmer
Brand new. So you still feel it now. You don’t you don’t know if you’re going to fall in line with your teacher and want it back or not.
00:26:12:22 – 00:26:34:15
Hal Nathan
I think, look, anything could change. I at right now, am more in line with what you were saying, which is just grapple with you never know what’s going to show up on your front door, and you never know what’s going to change. You never know what kind of you know. You never know who you’re going to meet, what kind of job you be working for, this or that.
00:26:34:15 – 00:27:06:44
Hal Nathan
So, I’m headed in that direction. I think. I’m okay with are beginning to learn how to be okay with, you know, just go out and do something. Say yes to everything, get on a set, talk to this person. And that’s, you know, kind of new. I didn’t even take a break during. I was the college chunk where Covid, we had Covid.
00:27:06:44 – 00:27:33:44
Hal Nathan
Covid was our freshman year. Okay. And so that’s the closest thing I guess I’ve had to a, like a break or like a, like a pause. Yeah. Pause. Yeah. And even then, we our school did a weird thing they wanted. They are, they do this semester program, but they wanted to go trimester for a year because they said, well, we can if we are trimesters, we can have a summer semester, fall and spring.
00:27:33:44 – 00:27:47:07
Hal Nathan
We can put everybody, you know, you get two of the three, everybody can have a single dorm. So we’ll be safe and everyone can be on campus. And I remember we were all sitting there like, oh my God. Like, do we? I mean, I want to be fall in spring. Do we get to choose? They were like, nope.
00:27:47:12 – 00:27:54:29
Hal Nathan
And so they gave me I was a sophomore at that point and they gave us, they gave the sophomore class fall and summer.
00:27:54:36 – 00:27:55:11
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:27:55:15 – 00:28:15:56
Hal Nathan
And I was like, there’s no chance I’m going to school in the summer and taking this weird spring whatever off. Absolutely not. I did the fall, and then I signed up for classes online, and took them that spring. And so I just kept going, and that was just what I knew, you know, that’s what I had done for years.
00:28:15:56 – 00:28:28:13
Hal Nathan
What do you do? You take classes in the spring. The newest thing that besides the pandemic for me was I didn’t play a sport in the spring because that was the biggest, like shock, I guess.
00:28:28:13 – 00:28:30:50
Agent Palmer
You you mentioned you played lacrosse.
00:28:30:55 – 00:28:31:53
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
00:28:31:58 – 00:28:35:58
Agent Palmer
I want to go back to high school because it’s a little less competitive. Did you play anything else?
00:28:36:03 – 00:28:52:43
Hal Nathan
I did, I ran track, I ran track, I was, I ran track in the winter. And then played the cross. The spring track was, a lot of fun, but it ended up being mostly a good stage and to get in shape. Yeah, yeah.
00:28:52:48 – 00:29:36:45
Agent Palmer
I mean, look, I, I, I ran cross-country in the fall. And so you run track in the spring because it’s almost like what you do. There’s no, there’s no like if, ands or but but I only ask because, like, I remember, and I don’t know if you’ve, and this is a lot of hindsight talking, but I remember thinking back on it that the end of a sport season in high school is almost like having no structure, because you go from when whatever your morning routine in high school is goes till what?
00:29:36:51 – 00:29:57:54
Agent Palmer
Whenever you get on the bus, which is basically just wake up, get ready, get on a bus right like that for or get to school however you do, and then you’re in school. And if you’re one of us, you then go to a thing. So you go to school till three and from 3 to 5, or if it’s a game night, 3 to 7 or 8 or 9.
00:29:57:59 – 00:30:22:41
Agent Palmer
Yeah, you’re spoken for. And the idea that in between seasons, which for you and me in high school would have been just winter. Winter was I didn’t know what to do with myself between 3 and 5. It was defer. In hindsight, it was the first time where it was like, oh wait, there’s no structure now. I’m not.
00:30:22:41 – 00:30:29:15
Agent Palmer
I’m never home at 330. What is what am I supposed to do now.
00:30:29:20 – 00:30:30:14
Hal Nathan
00:30:31:06 – 00:30:42:37
Agent Palmer
And filling that time like is that where is that where some of the artistic of like I’m going to get into movie starts. Does it start back then.
00:30:42:42 – 00:31:06:42
Hal Nathan
I think it’s funny. I in high school I had no idea what I wanted to do. Okay. So I was always I was always doing creative things like my, my creative outlet in high school was mostly like art class, and, I was always in an art class or always doing some kind of projects.
00:31:06:53 – 00:31:09:57
Agent Palmer
So visual mediums.
00:31:10:02 – 00:31:21:40
Hal Nathan
Visual mediums came in. I mean, I, I started I took a, my I think it was my junior year of high school. I did a film camp for one week.
00:31:21:45 – 00:31:22:05
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:31:22:08 – 00:31:54:06
Hal Nathan
Because I had just sort of gotten interested in it and didn’t know what to do. And I said, all right, well, I’m going to try this out and see if I even like it or not. And, you know, if this is something that clicks or works. And I did, I did a camp for a week and we shot, we wrote little, you know, I think there were like maybe a minute or two minute like scenes.
00:31:54:11 – 00:32:15:56
Hal Nathan
And we had, you know, an editing class and, learn the camera class and all this stuff in a, even a class where we just, like, every once in a while, we would just watch a movie and talk about it, and, and it was just a week, and I finished that program with, you know, a garbage little thing, and it was a ton of fun.
00:32:16:03 – 00:32:43:30
Hal Nathan
Okay. And that’s when I was sort of rounding the college application. I was I was headed, you know, towards that which was senior year of high school. And so I said, all right, I at least want to make sure that all the schools I’m applying to have some sort of film program where I can explore this, okay. And I don’t necessarily want to go to a film school because I don’t know if I’m going to like it and I don’t want to get stuck and blah, blah, blah.
00:32:43:30 – 00:33:06:28
Hal Nathan
And, you know, small liberal arts college sounds good because I’ll just try everything. And so I made sure that all the places I was applying had a, I had a program. And then I explored it a little more in college, and then I ended up playing lacrosse. And so that sort of like you said, gave me a ton of structure, but certainly not a lot of availability.
00:33:06:33 – 00:33:07:26
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:33:07:31 – 00:33:35:08
Hal Nathan
Which was tough. And it wasn’t that I like I, I there were you know there’s you have off days and you have like there were times that I could go and shoot and be a part of stuff, but also, who knows if that’s when the rest of the crew of, you know, 5 or 20 people can do it and it’s like, all right, well, I’m just going to be on as many projects as I can and just tell whoever I’m just like going to show up.
00:33:35:12 – 00:34:13:26
Hal Nathan
And if you need me, great. And if not, then I’ll, you know, hang out or whatever. And so I did that for a while while sports. And, you know, my classes took over, which was fine. And so my we lacrosse is a spring sport. And then I did not run track in the winter, in college. And so I, fall and winter was my I get to be creative of the semester, and I get to work on projects then and I did and junior year and senior year when those classes, those, you know, filmmaking classes sort of become available to you, those larger projects, I worked on a documentary with,
00:34:13:30 – 00:34:19:49
Hal Nathan
a bunch of people that was a ton of fun. I don’t know if it’s any good. Probably not. But it was, it’s a it’s.
00:34:19:49 – 00:34:34:14
Agent Palmer
A learning experience. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I, I but I but I asterisk that learning experience statement with the following sentiment.
00:34:34:18 – 00:34:57:09
Agent Palmer
I don’t know how good the first three episodes of this podcast are, but they are my first three, like, you know, like it’s what I did, right. Like and I this is now free flowing. And obviously there’s an evolution where even if you jump around, the more you do it, the more you learn what works, what doesn’t, what your style is, what have you.
00:34:57:09 – 00:35:30:20
Agent Palmer
And I and I telegraphed the first three episodes of this show as a faux introduction, you know, like the first ones. Should I even be doing this? The second one is I’m a writer. Get used to this. Let’s talk about writing. And the third one is I’ve been around podcasting. Let’s talk about podcasting. So it’s telegraphed or at least the topics are I’m a little more hosty as in like let’s stay on topic as opposed to, you know, we’ll just go wherever we go.
00:35:30:25 – 00:35:46:43
Agent Palmer
But that’s how you build upon that to get to here. Right? So I feel like we all kind of give our own stuff in the past. Crap. I, I don’t know that it makes it actually bad, though.
00:35:46:46 – 00:36:08:23
Hal Nathan
It’s a building block. Yeah, it’s part of it. Yeah, I agree. So and it was you know, again I have no clue what people, you know, I don’t know what people think of the old stuff that I did whatever projects I was on. Okay. I don’t care, I don’t care. It’s not at some point it doesn’t, you know, like, those things are great, you know, as little.
00:36:08:32 – 00:36:33:00
Agent Palmer
I mean, it’s it’s the it’s the. Yeah, but you have to move on, right? Like Spielberg didn’t stop at jaws. Like Scorsese. He didn’t stop, you know, like that. You don’t stop like, oh, I, I a good one. Yeah, I guess I’m done then. Like, you don’t stop there. I did want to ask about writing because you mentioned arts and you mentioned film, but we haven’t talked about writing at all.
00:36:33:05 – 00:36:41:49
Agent Palmer
And I mean, you mentioned it, but like in the process of high school interests and whatever, like where does writing come in?
00:36:41:53 – 00:37:15:31
Hal Nathan
I writing, I think, I guess there there’s always been, like a yearning to paint the picture. Okay. Which started with me physically going to art class and painting pictures. And I think in a way that was my intro to storytelling. Okay. I, I can’t even put a pin in where I all of a sudden decided, you know what, I love writing, and I’m just going to try this.
00:37:15:31 – 00:37:38:19
Hal Nathan
Okay. I think maybe, maybe it was the I like when I was looking into film stuff in film schools, like the the word director. The title director was sort of like a buzz word in the film industry. I honestly didn’t know what that meant. Besides, this is the person who makes the movie and I and and like, those things unfold.
00:37:38:19 – 00:37:56:08
Hal Nathan
And then you figure out what goes into actually making a movie and like, obviously somebody writes the movie, but I never really thought about like, oh, that’s you can just do that. You can just be the writer. And it’s not that I wouldn’t want to direct the things I wrote. I think that’s great if if that’s, possible.
00:37:56:13 – 00:38:07:06
Hal Nathan
But, I think it connected my obsession with painting the picture and.
00:38:07:11 – 00:38:32:31
Hal Nathan
Sort of working in the working that into film and realizing that, like, writing is, you know, a ton of a ton of that process. I mean, it’s the script, it’s everything. And then you pass it off to the director and they, bring it to life, and that’s awesome. And I think I never thought of that as, like, a real path or a real job.
00:38:32:31 – 00:38:53:01
Hal Nathan
I think those things unfold and that just folded a little bit later. And then I thought, well, all right, let’s do it. And then, you know, then you go to film school and they say, great, you’re going to direct it. And I go, yeah, yeah, of course. Why like why not like obviously. And so then you know that that you start to learn about how to work with actors and all that stuff and that’s great.
00:38:53:01 – 00:39:22:16
Hal Nathan
And you know, and that’s its own, its own challenge. But I guess it’s sort of has been a slow progression of me understanding, what storytelling is about. Okay. And how it’s done. And it’s the answer is so simple, right. The story. But you know, that that that only becomes possible when you discover that you’re interested in in it, you know, in filmmaking and or whatever, you know, creative field you get into.
00:39:22:23 – 00:39:29:06
Hal Nathan
So it’s it’s weird, but it’s sort of just unfolded very slowly. And now I’m looking into it.
00:39:29:11 – 00:39:51:35
Agent Palmer
All right. And and then I guess the other side of that from writing and the directing is the acting. And I’m sure when you were in school, you had to do some of that just because they want you to. But like when we take back, go back to high school, like, are you doing any plays? Like, are you getting on the stage at all?
00:39:51:40 – 00:40:02:09
Hal Nathan
Absolutely not. Okay. That was the and that’s the weirdest part is I was oh my god. Terrified. Still terrified of the stage is is, crazy. I mean you don’t.
00:40:02:09 – 00:40:26:55
Agent Palmer
Get oh no, it’s intimidating. Like, I don’t care who you are or. Yeah, what you’re doing. The stage is intimidating, but it’s. But it’s the question. The person in my seat. But it’s you’re going to get asked the question because it’s where we all start. And I look, I played in bands in front of people. And I know that’s not that doesn’t make the stage any less.
00:40:27:00 – 00:41:00:55
Agent Palmer
I was also part of the stage crew, but that doesn’t I like, but I feel that disqualifies me because I was actively wearing black to blend in, right? Not stand out on the stage. Right. Like that’s. Yeah, that’s so so I don’t know that that counts, but I’m with you like the stage is terrifying. So if if you weren’t in it on the stage back then, how comfortable you were, how comfortable were you when it was like, all right, but you’re not going to be on the stage necessarily, but we’re going to turn the camera on.
00:41:00:55 – 00:41:05:23
Agent Palmer
You like now you’re not behind it. You’re in front of it. Is that fine? That’s different.
00:41:05:23 – 00:41:26:36
Hal Nathan
Obviously it’s it’s weirdly better. I think I like when I was a kid, we had the we did like the, we did a play for I think it was in like second grade. We did like The Three Little Pigs, but it was a play, okay? And everybody just tried out. It was like that was, you know, we’re going to learn for, you know, 15 minutes.
00:41:26:36 – 00:41:47:51
Hal Nathan
We’re going to do an English exercise and we’re going to go to math, and then we’re all going to go to the auditorium and try out and do auditions for this play. And we all just were like, okay, yeah, sure. Great. And, you know, I got up there and I said some lines and I it was awful. And, I ended up out of just, you know, probably they needed they were running out of kids.
00:41:47:51 – 00:42:14:11
Hal Nathan
And I ended up being the understudy for the big Bad Wolf, which made zero sense because that is a, loud and confident and striking character. And I was none of those things, at least on the stage and had no desire. And I remember there was one like rehearsal where they said, all right, we’re going to put in the, we’re going to put in the understudies in second grade.
00:42:14:15 – 00:42:34:54
Hal Nathan
And I was like, okay. And I distinctly remember and there was no one in the audience. It was our, you know, teachers and our music teacher. And I remember holding the script shaking, and I had the mask on and the tail on, and I wasn’t even facing the four people who were sitting in the thing I was who were sitting in the in the bleachers.
00:42:35:03 – 00:43:00:00
Hal Nathan
I was turned like halfway looking like kind of at the wall and mumbling the lines, and it was awful. But that was second grade and that was everybody, you know, not knowing what the hell they were doing. And then you turn it around on, you know, and you do it in film school, which I did a little bit of, and I did some in college, some acting in front of the camera.
00:43:00:05 – 00:43:32:29
Hal Nathan
Yep. And it was a little more comfortable because I thought, this is what I want to do. These people are just as passionate as me. They’re here to get the best out of everybody, and I’m here to help produce their story. And so it felt a little more like teamwork and like, you know, it turned it turned acting into a bit more of a job and a bit more of a this is a this is a craft and this is there’s a reason that, you know, you take it in one direction and another and not another.
00:43:32:29 – 00:43:39:31
Hal Nathan
And it’s not just like, oh, you know, let’s just have some kids go sitting on a stage in front of like, a bunch of people. And so it felt more natural.
00:43:39:31 – 00:44:08:07
Agent Palmer
Also say, I think you it’s not I don’t think it’s you growing up. I still think you probably get nervous if I threw you on a stage right now. Right? Absolutely. But I think there is a comfort level for you, specifically on the other side of a film camera, because you know, there’s an editing process, right? Like, you know, and look this, you know, everybody knows this show is live to tape.
00:44:08:07 – 00:44:35:38
Agent Palmer
I talk about editing this show all the time. Knowing that I as the host, even though I’ve done this a million times and as a guest, I’ve done it a million times a podcast and it’s not hard for me, I’ve done it. But just knowing it’s not live knowing it’s live to tape and that there is a buffer that hopefully somebody with my best interest in mind is going to take out that flub or clean that up or whatever.
00:44:35:38 – 00:45:05:22
Agent Palmer
Just knowing that makes this exponentially better than, say, radio where there’s no buffer. Right? And it’s just it’s that simple. Like people have said, like, you should try radio. I was like, well, I’ve been on radio. I don’t like it, but I like it’s not. It’s not as fun. The buffer of editing. I, I and you know this because when, when you were finally getting the camera turned around on you, you had experienced all the other stuff.
00:45:05:27 – 00:45:13:42
Agent Palmer
So you’re like, oh yeah, no, like they want a certain thing. And if I mess up that, that’s going away.
00:45:13:47 – 00:45:14:05
Hal Nathan
Right?
00:45:14:06 – 00:45:19:18
Agent Palmer
That’s it. They get to laugh at it in the editing booth. I don’t know, that’s one person that’s fine.
00:45:19:23 – 00:45:51:40
Hal Nathan
Who cares? Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly what it was. I think I was more it took me when I did, I was asked to, like, actually act in a short film my senior year of college, and for it was the first time I was doing some serious acting. And it was, I had taken some acting classes, and I think I was in one probably, that fall and those were I mean, it was, again, very informative, but like you said, terrifying.
00:45:51:40 – 00:46:09:51
Hal Nathan
And I asked, I have a bunch of friends who are actors now, and they all say, yeah, acting class is way worse than like actually doing it because it’s the same thing is like getting up there and just like seeing if people laugh or seeing if they cry or seeing if they, you know, look at their phone and like, wait for the next person because that was, you know, awful or whatever, and you’re getting critiqued right on the spot.
00:46:09:51 – 00:46:28:46
Hal Nathan
And if you don’t do it right, it’s like, I didn’t do that, right. Not because I don’t feel it because like, I didn’t get enough sleep last night or whatever. Like it. It’s that’s so different. But getting approached and saying like, hey, we’re all working on this project. Here’s the script, here are the people involved. We’d like you to act in it with whatever experience you have, which was next to none.
00:46:28:51 – 00:46:46:36
Hal Nathan
Just do your best and we’re going to edit and we’re going to do takes, and we’re going to have rehearsals and there’s like a direction we want this to go in. And there’s an answer not that there isn’t, not that there aren’t like multiple answers like different sure takes two different things. But having that is like a honestly like a safety net.
00:46:46:39 – 00:47:09:26
Hal Nathan
And as a like process was so helpful. And it took all the pressure off, which was awesome. And then I went to when I, when I was in film school post-grad, I was asked to meet a few things and some of them I was I can definitely tell you I was horrible and and others I was okay. And it was just that community that was so supportive.
00:47:09:26 – 00:47:30:50
Hal Nathan
And so, I mean, it means a lot having people around you that are like minded and are also, you know, there to do the job just as much as you. That made all the difference. Okay. And of course that it was editing, I could go in and I was I was working on my own project and I’d lean over to the director who I was friends with, and I would say, hey, I don’t really like that take.
00:47:30:50 – 00:47:47:31
Hal Nathan
Can you maybe move in and say, oh, that was a really good one. But like, if you if you really hate it. And I was like, no, no, it’s okay. It’s your movie. Do what you want. And I’d sort of sit there and they’d go, all right, fine. If you don’t like that, whatever. So helpful to have the person who was making the movie.
00:47:47:31 – 00:48:00:39
Hal Nathan
But I watched we had a screening at the end of the year, and I watched that movie with one of my friends, and we were working in the projecting room. And so we were sitting back there and there was an audience of people watching the movie, and then ours came on, and I was in it, and I was like, how do you think that went?
00:48:00:39 – 00:48:09:10
Hal Nathan
And he was like, that was good. I was like, really? He was like, yeah, fine, you did good. You know, don’t worry about it. I was like, okay, cool.
00:48:09:10 – 00:48:29:13
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s there is something to be said for accepting. Not bad. And you know what I mean? Like, it’s and I’m not saying like because, you are by nature of being an artist going to have have to leave some level of perfection behind in order to finish anything.
00:48:29:18 – 00:48:31:46
Hal Nathan
Absolutely. Oh my God. And that’s a struggle every day.
00:48:31:46 – 00:49:10:36
Agent Palmer
But we also have to allow for not bad or good to be good enough. And that’s something that we all have a problem with. That’s not that’s not just you, right. It’s not you in the the guy going your friend say in the projector room saying it’s good. It is good, it’s fine. Like it’s not you because you probably in your head are hoping for it was very bad because it will validate what you thought or it’s amazing, which is the only other option you’ll accept.
00:49:10:36 – 00:49:13:49
Agent Palmer
And anything in between is like, wait, really?
00:49:13:54 – 00:49:16:36
Hal Nathan
Right. Like, I don’t know what that even means. Yeah, yeah. What do you.
00:49:16:36 – 00:49:35:15
Agent Palmer
Mean, what’s good? What’s this okay, I don’t yeah yeah. All right. So I want to I want to fast forward to right this moment. Right. Let’s say I become independently wealthy and I’m like, you know what? I, I’m going to throw how, a budget of $2 million to match what ever he wants.
00:49:35:20 – 00:49:36:43
Hal Nathan
Cool.
00:49:36:48 – 00:49:53:11
Agent Palmer
But you have to do it in the next two years, because I feel like if I gave you a ten years, you’d come up with something, but you’ve got $2 million and two years. Are you, you know, what’s your first thing? Is it like I’m going to shoot a documentary? I’m going to start writing a script.
00:49:53:11 – 00:50:01:32
Agent Palmer
I’m going to get some friends together or a writing group or like what are you doing? And what am I going to see in two years?
00:50:01:37 – 00:50:24:07
Hal Nathan
I think, if I could, if I could take the 2 million and make anything, I’d be very, very tempted to. I’m I’m I’m, you know, a writer. So I’m writing always. I’d be very tempted to see if I could make another short film that was a little longer. Now that’s one because I have an idea that I’m working on, so that’s an easy answer.
00:50:24:16 – 00:50:52:58
Hal Nathan
And two, I’ve been working in short films, so like, that’s also, you know, makes that easy. But, if I, if I could really do anything, I have, ideas for TV that I’d love to start, pursuing, but that also means, you know, you’re getting in a room with, with, networks and figure out if people even like the idea.
00:50:53:02 – 00:51:09:52
Hal Nathan
So maybe I use the 2 million to just have them say yes, and we get started and it goes where it goes. But yeah, I think writing for TV and starting a series would be awesome. That would be what’s the.
00:51:09:57 – 00:51:36:59
Agent Palmer
And I only ask this because it wasn’t available to me. Yeah, but it’s available to you. What’s the what’s stopping you from taking the 2 million and saying, I’m going to do, six or a ten episode series on YouTube? Like, what’s stopping. You know what I mean? Like, I’m just saying, like, you immediately went to network, like, and and, like, what’s stopping you from just independently releasing.
00:51:37:04 – 00:51:59:47
Hal Nathan
I mean, I mean, definitely, I think, I think with the short film that I’m working on that that falls in line a little more with like that. I’ll just do it myself. Okay. So maybe, maybe that’s a better like I would, you know, if I could, I’d assemble a team and get in touch with, you know, the producers.
00:51:59:47 – 00:52:17:12
Hal Nathan
I know whoever it is to to drum up some interest and just do it and just say, great, I’m going to direct and write this, and I’m looking for these people, and I’m going to, talk to a casting agent and see if or, you know, somebody in casting and see if we can get some auditions for these characters.
00:52:17:12 – 00:52:34:11
Hal Nathan
And, like, I would just go and just do it. And I think that that hopefully answers your question. I think with stuff like that, that like sort of one and done like a feature, I mean, you know, that also would be great that those you can just do. So if I had if I had the money, like you said, I’d probably just get started on that.
00:52:34:15 – 00:52:59:48
Hal Nathan
Okay. The YouTube short thing, if I had an idea that I thought was perfect for that sort of style, like the little YouTube series. Absolutely not. You know, nothing. Nothing. It all depends on if what I’m writing, I think is going to be, you know, if I think it’s valuable or if I have a story that fits the, you know, that that sort of style, I guess a.
00:52:59:52 – 00:53:23:03
Agent Palmer
I then I mean, I guess the only other question is, you said you fell in love with writing over the last little bit, like we talked a lot about film. Yeah. There’s a lot of things you can do with writing, like could you could you write a book like, is a novel like a collection of short stories, like, is this within the realm of possibility for Hal as well?
00:53:23:08 – 00:53:32:34
Hal Nathan
It is something I thought about because it’s the natural like just right, like that’s you and your computer, like, just do it.
00:53:32:34 – 00:53:33:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:53:33:21 – 00:53:55:54
Hal Nathan
Think of something. Write it. And I did experiment with, like, creative writing classes in college too. And, it was mostly me seeing if that my mind was so and still is so involved with like, film and television. So it was mostly me,
00:53:55:59 – 00:53:58:33
Agent Palmer
Developing ideas for film and TV.
00:53:58:42 – 00:54:20:38
Hal Nathan
And seeing if I could take those ideas and make them turn into screenplays, which we were not working with. We were working with, you know, everything from from I, we, we were all like, one of our assignments was like, create like a Reddit post or something that, like, you know, that’s supposed to be, crazy observation of, you know, something you saw on the street.
00:54:20:47 – 00:54:43:17
Hal Nathan
Okay. And so we’re doing everything from from that to, talking about and starting to write, like, what it’s like to write a chapter of a book or whatever. So, there was everything in there, and it was great, I think, because I was so involved with film and television, I was not taking advantage of the.
00:54:43:21 – 00:54:44:17
Agent Palmer
Yeah, you’re right, a.
00:54:44:20 – 00:54:44:48
Hal Nathan
Book.
00:54:45:02 – 00:54:45:24
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:54:45:26 – 00:54:53:06
Hal Nathan
So, yeah, television is a great word. Yes, exactly. It was a little tunnel vision, so I’m not sure I would want to take that class again.
00:54:53:13 – 00:54:53:36
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:54:53:38 – 00:55:19:13
Hal Nathan
And think about it in terms of, you know, writing Harry Potter or, you know, something that that would be maybe a great idea. So I would take a chunk of that 2 million and spend it on some, some lessons or some, you know, something like that. I don’t know.
00:55:19:18 – 00:55:43:43
Agent Palmer
Given how spread open the entertainment industry is about process now, the information, the behind the scenes, the hard work, quite literally, how the sausage gets made, it is encouraging that someone like Hal still wants to get into the industry. When it comes to creative fields in the entertainment industry, there are many safer ways to pay the bills, but that doesn’t matter to those who really have the passion.
00:55:43:57 – 00:56:12:53
Agent Palmer
And Hal has been bitten by the passion bug. And to that end, what he’s experiencing now and graduating into this new post structure. Normal is a non-linear world. That is the new normal for everyone. How he and the rest of us handle that is up to us. But know that none of us are alone. We all experience this new non-linear life, whether it be creative career or some combination of both.
00:56:12:58 – 00:56:34:40
Agent Palmer
So take this to heart. You are not alone. And while I don’t have all the answers or even any of them, I’d be willing to talk it through with you. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 143. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion.
00:56:34:51 – 00:56:59:53
Agent Palmer
You can find all related ways to contact my guest, Hal and myself in the show notes. You can visit his website. How nathan.com, where you can see what he has been up to. The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com and remember, you’re home for all things agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:56:59:58 – 00:57:13:38
Untitled
You.
00:57:13:43 – 00:57:21:11
Untitled
See?
00:57:21:16 – 00:57:36:09
Untitled
Me?
00:57:36:14 – 00:57:42:28
Agent Palmer
She’s all right. How do you have one final question for me?
00:57:42:37 – 00:58:25:38
Hal Nathan
Like with this, with this live tape and this, like when it comes to, like, scripting live shows or interviews or podcasts or that whole world of unscripted but scripted. Yeah. Media. I’m just beginning to learn about that. Working on the podcast, could government show and I’m wondering, as weird of a questions as this is, like I’m learning about what goes into that, how much of that stuff and that like kind of media is scripted.
00:58:25:42 – 00:59:09:33
Agent Palmer
Usually. You’re not supposed to know, right? Like, and that’s, that’s the it’s, I’m trying to think like there are, there are a lot of instances where now in 2025 or even 2016, 20 tens, after the massive blow up of reality television kind of happened in like the early the late 90s, it’s the 20 tens ish 20, definitely by the 2020s that we have a general idea of just how not real the reality television is, but we’re not still not quite sure how scripted it is.
00:59:09:33 – 00:59:36:30
Agent Palmer
Right? Like it’s a very, delicate balance between like, well, how, you know, the Real Housewives aren’t doing all of that completely off the cuff, but we don’t know just how much. We don’t know what percentage is editing. We don’t know what percentage is a producer yelling or someone from the, you know, DP department yelling off camera like pusher again, you know, or whatever.
00:59:36:30 – 01:00:13:38
Agent Palmer
Just so we don’t know. And when it comes to podcasts, it’s it’s it’s slightly, worse. And what I mean by that is, take this show for example. Right. I’ve gotten really good at writing for myself. Right. So when I do my cold open my intro and my outro, you should have a fairly good idea. I’m reading, but I’m also reading something I wrote in my voice for myself, so it shouldn’t.
01:00:13:43 – 01:00:42:28
Agent Palmer
It should still sound kind of off the cuff, even though it may sound delivered very different than the rest of the show where you and I are bouncing back and forth, and it’s definitely not scripted. However, with a good enough voice actor and a good enough script, you and I could sit down, you know, you and I could end this call, sit down and script your return appearance.
01:00:42:33 – 01:01:09:00
Agent Palmer
And if we scripted it in our own voices and we were good enough voice actors to pull that off, you don’t know. So, like, even listening back to this, this show, when I edit it or like, the people listening now, like, you know, how did I do for my cold open, which is formulaic and I don’t I only need like an outline at this point.
01:01:09:00 – 01:01:28:36
Agent Palmer
And I can say it by word and my intro is, again, it’s formulaic and it’s supposed to be, but it’s also not supposed to sound like I’m reading it, which I think I accomplish, but I don’t think it sounds like it’s completely off the top of my head. And so that’s a balance just for this show, and I can come clean with that.
01:01:28:40 – 01:01:46:43
Agent Palmer
Versus like, there are other shows out there where you just don’t know. And the other thing is I’ll go one step further. You’re talking about scripting and that’s one part of it. The other part of it is.
01:01:46:48 – 01:01:51:26
Agent Palmer
Did I tell you what we were going to talk about tonight?
01:01:51:31 – 01:01:52:35
Hal Nathan
Right. Not at all.
01:01:52:48 – 01:02:15:11
Agent Palmer
So but and you could admit that now and I usually never tell people. Maybe I’ll discuss the first question, but from there it goes. But I’ve been a guest on many other podcasts where they will give me the ten questions. Now, there will always be follow ups and in betweens that aren’t. But like just knowing the ten questions.
01:02:15:11 – 01:02:36:32
Agent Palmer
And I always I don’t know if this makes me a good guest or a bad guest. I never look at them because I don’t want to know. Like I. My favorite movie today is not going to be my favorite movie tomorrow. It’s going to depend on my mood, what I’ve seen recently, what you know, like that’s just the way it is.
01:02:36:37 – 01:03:00:35
Agent Palmer
My answer to how do I write better? Because. Or how do I become a better podcaster or editor? Or, you know, this, that and the other. Those things all change based on experience. Because you learn. Because you do, because you whatever. So again, how much of that is scripted, right. Because it’s, you know, so like it’s not off the cuff.
01:03:00:39 – 01:03:20:40
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if I’d consider that scripted, but how is all right, how many invite you back in the Palmer files. But here’s the ten questions we’re going to discuss. Look at them beforehand and come up with your answers and get prepared. How is that any different than like the reality television of like somebody kind of outlining things that may or may not happen?
01:03:20:53 – 01:03:49:49
Agent Palmer
We have no idea. And I think that that’s kind of a it’s I don’t think it’s a disservice to the listener or the audience or the viewer. They’re after the first 5 to 10 minutes of anything that’s long form, even a 30 minute, 25 minute, 22 minute, you know, sitcom. You’ve agreed to whatever you’re watching, right?
01:03:49:50 – 01:04:22:08
Agent Palmer
Whether it’s scripted or completely off the cuff or sports, you know, like you’re you’ve bought into it after that period of time and you’re good. Who it does a disservice to is you. How specifically you because you listen to my show. And it’s done by me. But I don’t know if I do a good enough job explaining that I produce right and edit this show.
01:04:22:12 – 01:04:54:59
Agent Palmer
Right. And I don’t know that when we, go out and listen, to other podcasts or we watch TV or even what streaming services have done for video, like, do you especially on series, nobody sits through the credits. And while you are aware that there is at least a producer and potentially a writer or a script editor or whatever for something, you have no idea who’s behind it.
01:04:55:14 – 01:05:30:18
Agent Palmer
You have no idea how big the team is that’s behind it. And I think that’s probably worse than is it scripted or not, because now I’m just letting you know that there’s a team behind the Palmer files. There isn’t. It’s just me. But letting you know that I wear the hat of producer, editor, sound engineer and writer let you know that those are for jobs you could have in podcasting.
01:05:30:23 – 01:06:15:57
Agent Palmer
But if you just listen to Rogan or Maron or any show you want, even if you listen to the credits, not a lot of them are that, and they’re not job specific. And so I think in general media across the whole and I think YouTube, because of its prevalence, is as bad as anyone else. I know YouTube channels that are done by teams that don’t have credits like the disservice not to change your question, but the disservice is not only do you not know what’s real and what’s scripted and what’s not, you don’t know genuinely how it’s being created.
01:06:16:02 – 01:06:47:00
Agent Palmer
Like, I don’t have a big vinyl collection. I have some vinyl because I saved it when family members were getting rid of it. I had a massive CD collection in the 90s, and when I went from CD jewel cases to CD binders, I kept all the liner notes. And I only bring this up because albums and their predecessors and what came after them in cassettes and CDs, had liner notes.
01:06:47:04 – 01:07:08:31
Agent Palmer
You got to sit down and read whatever the artist wanted you to know. This is the sound engineer, this is the producer, this is the individual writers and the individual musicians on the individual songs. And oh, by the way, we have plenty of extra space in here. So we’re going to write a little thank you or give you extra.
01:07:08:36 – 01:07:34:57
Agent Palmer
That is an important part of all media that those liner notes are so important not for the general consumer, but for the next generation of artists so that they can read the liner notes and go, maybe I want to be a sound engineer. Maybe I want to be a line producer, maybe I want to be a, you know, but all of that’s missing.
01:07:35:02 – 01:08:03:18
Agent Palmer
And so to kind of like piggyback on the what’s scripted and what’s not in podcasting, you just don’t know, because a lot of people want to blur the line or don’t want you to know one way or the other. And so it’s it’s kind of sad, but I think the sadder part is I can’t turn around to the people behind me and go like, these are the jobs you can have.
01:08:03:23 – 01:08:22:38
Agent Palmer
I, I don’t do it on my show because it feels self-serving. But I give credit to Hanno Hyder because he does my music, so he gets a credit. And by the way, it took me like 40 episodes to give him a credit. Like, I it was just it’s just an afterthought. It’s not something that we think about immediately.
01:08:22:43 – 01:08:47:21
Agent Palmer
But now when I get in new projects, it’s all I think about because I want to make sure that whoever’s next can know me like and know I exist, as opposed to like, that’s an entity. Like, that’s a podcast. That’s a video that just came out of the internet like, no, it came out of people. Right. And I think that’s the other piece that’s missing.
01:08:47:26 – 01:08:49:43
Agent Palmer
Like.
01:08:49:48 – 01:09:24:56
Agent Palmer
You went to film school. You’ve been behind the scenes now, but like, and and you’re working in podcasting and you’re probably going to end up working in a lot of other mediums in the next few years as your career goes wherever it goes. But how many of these positions that you’ve done in film school or that you’re doing now in podcasting or what will probably be some kind of small whatever, how many of those jobs hats that you wore did you even know existed before film school?
01:09:24:56 – 01:09:34:06
Agent Palmer
Right? Like while you were consuming content that inspired you to want to tell stories you only knew, maybe like actor director, writer maybe.
01:09:34:15 – 01:09:37:36
Hal Nathan
I think maybe director and actor was my introduction.
01:09:37:43 – 01:09:38:37
Agent Palmer
Okay. I mean.
01:09:38:37 – 01:09:40:13
Hal Nathan
It was it. You can’t it.
01:09:40:18 – 01:10:06:13
Agent Palmer
You know, it’s we almost that’s I think that’s where we fail that next generation where unless you’re going to truly be like a film geek, you don’t know. And I feel like that that cuts off a lot of things. So we have to that’s, I think where we have to we have to do better. And we also need to say what’s scripted and what’s not.
01:10:06:14 – 01:10:26:21
Agent Palmer
I don’t think we should be. I don’t think we should be ashamed by what’s scripted and what’s not. And I think right now you can flip a coin and it could be either or. I’m ashamed that this is scripted or I’m ashamed that this is not. And we just need to be okay with it so that we can share what is and what isn’t and who does it.
01:10:26:26 – 01:10:27:25
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
01:10:27:30 – 01:10:33:41
Agent Palmer
But we’re not. We’re kind of failing across the board of the media right now for that.
01:10:33:46 – 01:11:07:07
Hal Nathan
I movie magic is going beyond the screen and the story and it’s going over to who’s doing what. You can’t tell, which is tough. I mean, I every day learn of a new position or a new this or that in the film industry and be it would be such a shame to for that to stop. Yeah. And for anybody else who wants to do what I’m trying to do or get into this, you know, get into anything creative, it would be a shame to not know where to go.
01:11:07:09 – 01:11:09:37
Hal Nathan
It’s already hard. It’s already tough. I mean, you were saying it before.
01:11:09:39 – 01:11:26:03
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it’s hard enough, but yeah, just. No, there is, there’s probably a job out there for you. It will not you will not retire on it most likely. But you will probably be able to pay your bills and you will have a blast.
01:11:26:08 – 01:11:27:25
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
01:11:27:30 – 01:11:32:19
Agent Palmer
Ladies and gentlemen, the arts in the 2020s.
01:11:32:23 – 01:11:35:48
Hal Nathan
That’s about right. Yeah. Oh, man.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).