For episode five of The Palmer Files, guest Tristan Boyle the Anarchaeologist joins Agent Palmer to discuss modern archaeology, hidden history, and our shared past.
From the different types of archaeology to Tristan’s love/hate relationship with Indiana Jones, how our paths crossed even for the first time on Twitter, my ill-informed education, our joint work on no longer published podcast Chronicles Unwritten and much much more.
Throughout the conversation, we dig in to:
- Archeaogaming
- Recording what could be lost
- Ancient Arch vs. Modern Arch
- What constitutes something of value
- What’s the point?
- Arch twitter
- Justification, Prioritization, Importance
- Hidden history
- Archeology of brushing teeth
- Life as a commercial arch
- How often things crumble
- Being inclusive
- Reflection and projection
- Theresa O’Mahony
- Living in a post-apocalyptic world
- Saying too much vs. things not said
- Podcasting
- Chronicles Unwritten
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
The Modern Myth with Tristan Boyle
Andrew Rinehart’s The No Man’s Sky Archaeological Project
Scottish Area Group of Chartered Institute for Archaeologists
Enabled Archaeology – Theresa O’Mahony
Dark Angels and Pretty Freaks Podcast (DAPFpod)
You can also hear more Palmer in the meantime on Our Liner Notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and as mentioned on this show as co-host of The Podcast Digest with Dan Lizette.
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:14 – 00:00:44:11
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. A book review of Clive Thompson’s Coders, My Thoughts on Sturgill Simpson’s Netflix special Sound and Fury, and I’m still working on creating a Margo approved meal. This is The Palmer Files episode five with guest Tristan Boyle, the anarcheologist, where we talk about modern archeology, hidden history, and then I break his heart. Let’s do the show.
00:00:44:15 – 00:01:05:08
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer, and on this episode is a guest who was on the initial list of guests well before launch Tristan Boyle. Now, normally I would tell you how I know Tristan, but since we actually cover that during the episode, I’m going to tell you why Tristan was chosen instead.
00:01:05:12 – 00:01:30:41
Agent Palmer
Usually when something’s dead and buried, it’s over. But for this archeologist, it’s just the start of the conversation. Tristan is passionate, he’s knowledgeable, and he’s not only willing to share his knowledge. He is the co-founder of a podcast network created on the idea of sharing any and all knowledge that he can find. That network is the archeology Podcast Network Arch Pod Net for short.
00:01:30:53 – 00:01:53:13
Agent Palmer
And of course he’s got his own show on the network, The Modern Myth with Tristan Boyle. He’s also an independent researcher and a digital public archeologist. When it came to topics for this episode, I was always going to start where we do with modern archeology, and from there I had faith that any of the rest of the ideas or notes I had on where the conversation might go would get thrown completely out the window.
00:01:53:13 – 00:02:21:28
Agent Palmer
And of course they were. As mentioned earlier, we discussed on this episode how it came to be that we fell into the same circles, plus how this episode came to be, and we diverge into Tristan’s love hate relationship with Indiana Jones and dig into some more dustier topics. I think that’s enough puns for now. Before we get into the episode proper, you can hear Tristan on his show, the aforementioned Modern Myth with Tristan Boyle, and you can follow him on his Twitter at Anarcheologist.
00:02:21:29 – 00:02:52:58
Agent Palmer
His network is at Arch Pod Net, and the website for that network is Archeology Podcast network.com. You can also tweet this show at The Palmer Files, me at Agent Palmer, and of course, all of these links and all of those mentioned within the show will be located in the show notes. So without further ado, let’s get digging into the conversation.
00:02:53:02 – 00:02:57:41
Agent Palmer
Tristan, what is modern archeology?
00:02:57:46 – 00:03:26:20
Tristan Boyle
I modern archeology, I think, is going through a bit of transition because I don’t think it represents what a lot of people believe it represents. There’s a kind of, an idea that archeology is digging up the past, looking at it and then showing it off. And archeology is more than that. Without getting too, like, technical or theoretical.
00:03:26:33 – 00:03:52:55
Tristan Boyle
I think archeology, my opinion represents, a kind of way of reckoning who we are. We ourselves as individuals, we have memories, we have experiences, and we have like, we rely on what’s happened to us previously to figure out what we should do nigh and what we need to do in the future. And as a society, we also do that.
00:03:53:04 – 00:04:17:31
Tristan Boyle
We used to tell stories that had meanings. We used to try and retell things. We used to write things down. We used to have oral histories, and now we have an evolution of that, which is the kind of archeology that you kind of see today. Now, to boil that down, really, like massively there are two main types of archeology that is done today.
00:04:17:39 – 00:04:27:05
Tristan Boyle
And that’s like commercial archeology, also called salvage archeology. And academic archeology. Those are the two kind of main separations you’ll hear people talk about.
00:04:27:05 – 00:04:30:02
Agent Palmer
And which one did Indiana Jones do?
00:04:30:07 – 00:04:54:50
Tristan Boyle
He did, technically he did colonial archeology. And colonial archeology is kind of like, if you can imagine, you know, better than other people. You go into their country, you go into their lands, you take their items and you tell them what it means. That’s where Indiana Jones fits in, okay?
00:04:54:50 – 00:05:10:19
Agent Palmer
And you got and I say you. But like archeology as a whole, secretly hates Indy, right? Because that’s what like on the outside, people who don’t know, that’s what they always think.
00:05:10:23 – 00:05:37:27
Tristan Boyle
And do you know why I hate Indy? But, I, I, I cannot say that other people who I have met quite a lot of archeologists, I’ve been to conferences, I’ve spoken to them, just generally, a lot of people took up archeology because of Indiana Jones. It is probably one of the most important things in getting people interested in archeology as a career.
00:05:37:42 – 00:05:58:39
Tristan Boyle
So yeah, we all recognize like how problematic Indiana Jones is. And I think there’s a certain but there’s a certain kind of like there’s something there that really captures people’s imaginations. So I mean, I, I don’t know, I, I, I’m still I’m still on the fence. Really.
00:05:58:44 – 00:06:01:17
Agent Palmer
Okay. So commercial and academic.
00:06:01:29 – 00:06:02:46
Tristan Boyle
Yes. Roughly.
00:06:02:50 – 00:06:05:22
Agent Palmer
Are they is it all digging in dirt.
00:06:05:27 – 00:06:41:36
Tristan Boyle
No no no no. So archeology really, has different parts to it. I mean, the thing is, for me, I, I see archeology as a very broad category. For me, it can range from your typical digging up dirt to what, stuff like, doctor Andrew Reinhardt does, where he actually is doing an archeological survey of the game No Man’s Sky, and he’s taking that information and uploading it to a real archeological data service, for other people then to access.
00:06:41:41 – 00:06:49:43
Tristan Boyle
So for me, archeology can encompass so much that it’s difficult to really pin it down.
00:06:49:48 – 00:07:11:16
Agent Palmer
I guess the follow up question, because I wanted to get into this, was if it what’s the digital equivalent of digging in the dirt? Are we talking digging into the code, or are we talking digging into the database piece that we’re left behind, or is it a little bit of both, or does it depend on what you’re looking for?
00:07:11:21 – 00:07:30:17
Tristan Boyle
All of the above. I think I think, well, I’ll, I’ll kind of paraphrase, what Andrew Reinhart, this kind of said in the past, actually, consequently, Doctor Andrew Reinhart was the guy who was the archeologist on the project to dig up the Atari ET cartridges in the desert. I don’t know if you ever heard of that.
00:07:30:17 – 00:07:35:22
Agent Palmer
No, I, I watched the documentary on it. Yeah. Or one of the documentaries on on it.
00:07:35:27 – 00:08:00:23
Tristan Boyle
So he’s the main that he was the main archeologist for that. And I mean, what he talks about is the Ark gaming and that being the archeology of and in video games. So for digital digging, there’s a couple of people at the University of York who, do that as well. And it’s it’s actually a really broad subgenre as well.
00:08:00:28 – 00:08:34:10
Tristan Boyle
So for example, somebody find, I think, a hard drive or a pen drive and literally went to it, recovering it, checking the file directories in it, you know, recording it as if it was an archeological site made of mud and like, dirt and stuff. And, you know, it’s about I think archeology is about recording and it’s about trying to get that information, that otherwise would be lost if we just, let people kind of, like, build over ancient sites.
00:08:34:15 – 00:08:46:29
Tristan Boyle
And so when it comes to digital stuff, it’s about recording information in such a way that you can, even if it’s erased, you can actually piece together kind of what might have been there.
00:08:46:34 – 00:09:13:00
Agent Palmer
I guess. The other question then becomes when you look at the time that’s changed, right? So in the 1900s, archeology literally is digging in dirt and the quote unquote digital equivalent for the 1900s was reading whatever texts existed. But there were only so many texts. There were only so many places to dig, in fact, that the second part of that still true.
00:09:13:14 – 00:09:46:16
Agent Palmer
But like now, you know, so much is created, so much is written and podcasts and video, and there is just so much that you know, 100, 200, 300, a thousand years from now, anybody looking back is going to have so much more to sift through. Not even just noise, but just so much to sift through. Like one podcast episode is going to equal one pot, but there’s going to be like a million pots for them to like, look at in hindsight.
00:09:46:16 – 00:10:02:47
Agent Palmer
Like, should we be, I don’t know, doing a favor to those people like and like finding a way to organize it. Now, are we doing a good job of that or is it just going to be a mess for them when they when they turn around and look back on us?
00:10:02:52 – 00:10:24:12
Tristan Boyle
I think we should just stop making podcasts. That would help. The other thing is, I actually think, I think we have to understand that the past itself, as it stands right now, that’s a mess as well. And the thing is that there are things in the past that we will never know. There’s things in the past that we will never find out.
00:10:24:25 – 00:10:56:05
Tristan Boyle
There are things of the past that are gone forever. Right? And there is so much information in the past, and I think you can’t treat it like that. The podcasts and the books and the things that we’re writing now, those are just a different form of the same information that’s lost in the past. I think that in reality, what we might start doing is having more in between records of stuff.
00:10:56:09 – 00:11:21:54
Tristan Boyle
So one of the biggest problems in the past is to kind of say one after another, like, what kind of sequence did things happen in, like what’s old or what’s younger and trying to piece together what happened and then you can start asking why. So when we have this abundance of material now, we could just look at podcasts, you know, we have this abundance of podcasts.
00:11:21:54 – 00:11:36:33
Tristan Boyle
You know, everybody in the grandmother has one. And, you have to you can have. But every podcast has a story, you know, and I mean, for example, the, The Palmer Files has a, has a story, does it not?
00:11:36:44 – 00:11:37:27
Agent Palmer
It does.
00:11:37:27 – 00:11:52:39
Tristan Boyle
Let’s let’s see if we can trace that story because let’s let’s take a look back because for me, my connection to you is not very apparent. We don’t live on the same continent. We don’t we never we’ve never met in real life.
00:11:52:39 – 00:11:53:50
Agent Palmer
We haven’t.
00:11:53:54 – 00:12:07:39
Tristan Boyle
But how do we know each other? Let’s take it back. Because I started listening to Dark Angels in Pre Freaks, which was linked on a Reddit, podcast subreddit.
00:12:07:43 – 00:12:08:50
Agent Palmer
Okay, okay.
00:12:08:50 – 00:12:18:18
Tristan Boyle
Now off the back of that, I’m pretty sure I met David and the other guys Diamond Dave. Yep.
00:12:18:22 – 00:12:46:45
Agent Palmer
Okay. And and then I came into the circle somehow. I mean, I guess so at the same time or on a different like tangent, I started listening to podcasts and got to Seven Days of Geek and Seven Days a geek got me to Diamond Dave, which also got me to Dark Angels and Pretty Freaks. And then you and I kind of co-existed within a a, a similar circle.
00:12:46:50 – 00:13:02:00
Agent Palmer
And it wasn’t until, May I think it was before Chronicles unwritten, but like, at a certain point, because of Dave, we got, like, together, so to speak.
00:13:02:04 – 00:13:22:02
Tristan Boyle
Yeah, yeah. And I think I well, I was having a lot of strange conversations around that time as well, which I think kind of helped kind of, speak to other people and get people get to know who, like, who I was and stuff. And I think there’s that. But but you see, I have just the Palmer Files podcast.
00:13:22:07 – 00:13:49:58
Tristan Boyle
We’ve already connected all these other podcasts and they’re creators and they have all offshoots. Now let’s try and think about it. Say we find one pot in the village from, I don’t know, like, let’s make it easy 1500 years ago. So like 500 BC, the Romans have just left Britain. There’s kind of like this is pre medieval times and you’ve got a pot.
00:13:50:02 – 00:14:24:13
Tristan Boyle
Now the pot has markings on it. And those markings made by person, that person could have had so many other connections to other people as you have had between me and you. To all these other people who’ve influenced them and connected them. And that information is forever lost. So that is possibly the difference between then and now, that all the information that really, you know, tie people together, together and connected them is the information we’re going to be missing.
00:14:24:18 – 00:14:37:58
Tristan Boyle
And maybe that’s the information that we’re going to be able to keep. Now that everything’s digitally stored, that is, unless, you know, we, destroy ourselves before all that.
00:14:38:03 – 00:15:05:09
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, that’s that’s true. But, I mean, I guess we can look at the history of now almost because we were never able to connect those dots for the most part. I mean, in, in if you go back 50 years or what, before the modern digital age is what I’ll call it. You unless it was written in a book, you were never going to be able to see those connections.
00:15:05:14 – 00:15:30:07
Agent Palmer
Whereas now we can. But I mean, we just went through your connection to me. How many more? I don’t know, personal connections do we need to, like, look at in order to, I don’t know, learn something because I don’t know if a case study of one is valid or is it?
00:15:30:12 – 00:16:04:49
Tristan Boyle
I think what you have to realize, then, is that when it comes to ancient archeology, up to modern archeology, is that sometimes you will only have one. I mean, I know about a little bit about American archeology just through osmosis with my American kind of colleagues and compatriot. And I know that there are rules in certain states where, like, for example, a site is defined by, I don’t know, like, a couple of flakes, you know, they’re like little stone chippings.
00:16:04:49 – 00:16:49:28
Tristan Boyle
So when somebody wants to, like, create a stone tool, you basically hit one rock off another rock and you create these little flakes that have sharp edges. So you know how many of those come together. And as an archeological site and that changes from state to state, you know, that that that changes. So there’s a part of archeology which is actually talking about what you’re saying, and that’s about what constitutes something of value to record, because I’m sure you could understand that recording absolutely everything is a impossible, and B, you know, you have to ask yourself why?
00:16:49:37 – 00:17:13:38
Agent Palmer
Well, if you spend so much time recording it, you spend no time analyzing it. I mean, so there there has to be a balance between, like, you have to be able to look at it. And I mean digitally, of course, like if you stop recording something, it’s better to zoom out and see a big picture and then zoom in and see all the tiny little like cross-sections and little stories.
00:17:13:38 – 00:17:17:01
Agent Palmer
But how does that even happening?
00:17:17:06 – 00:17:40:33
Tristan Boyle
I, I think there’s a, there’s I think the internet is somewhat different, than previous like I think the internet allows us to do different things. And I think the advent of computers, I don’t think it’s c I like, I like this, there’s this saying, it’s like somebody who’s not smart, they can just say dumb things really, really quickly.
00:17:40:38 – 00:18:14:44
Tristan Boyle
And I feel like technology has not necessarily made us smarter. And that’s an er quotations. But we’re able to do stuff just more quicker, you know, because ultimately we from this almost like idealistic state of, oh, which ought we to be doing when it comes to what we’re recording, hybrid recording and things like that. You then come up against the struggle of resources, you know, like, why should we be spending money on this?
00:18:14:44 – 00:18:38:52
Tristan Boyle
Why should we be spending time on this? You know, and there’s a lot of questions that you need to ask that ultimately come back to this. Almost like, what’s the point? And a lot of archeologists talk about this. It is a very talked by thing. But I don’t think most of them like it when I say, yeah, what’s the point?
00:18:38:57 – 00:18:40:37
Tristan Boyle
What’s the point in archeology?
00:18:40:41 – 00:19:06:44
Agent Palmer
I almost want to know, like, are there like common answers when people ask that question? Because my, my guess and I would love to know, right or wrong, is that archeology in general, unless you’re teaching a class, like if you’re just an archeologist and not a professor of archeology, you have to justify your project. You have to justify your budget.
00:19:06:55 – 00:19:23:55
Agent Palmer
You have to justify the amount of money somebody is giving you. And that’s what the point is, right? Like whatever answer you give to what’s the point is also the same answer for why you should give me this money.
00:19:24:00 – 00:19:50:10
Tristan Boyle
Yeah. Like, I’ll I’ll put an addendum. Yes. And also, if you’re a professor, you have to, you know, you have to say that as well, because the thing is one of the most difficult things to do at the moment. And if you like, on archeology, Twitter. Yes, archeology. Twitter exists. And we all know each other and it’s really, really weird because when you bump into people and they’re like, oh, what’s your name?
00:19:50:10 – 00:20:07:09
Tristan Boyle
And he’s like, oh, I don’t recognize that. What’s your Twitter handle? I know you so and that’s literally like, I swear I’ve been to conferences where people recognize me, my Twitter handle more than my name. So it happens. It happens. But Tristan.
00:20:07:09 – 00:20:12:04
Agent Palmer
I’m right there with you. I, I’ve announced that I’m Jason on this show and other.
00:20:12:06 – 00:20:17:14
Tristan Boyle
You’re not I’m I’m Palmer. Yeah.
00:20:17:19 – 00:20:31:17
Tristan Boyle
I, I’m never going to accept Jason I mean like cool. I respect you. You’re totally valid. But no, your Agent Palmer, I don’t know. Oh. Adjacent. This. Is there a lot of Jason’s? No.
00:20:31:22 – 00:20:38:18
Agent Palmer
I mean, there are a few. I have a best friend named Jason. There’s Jason, the angry ginger. I.
00:20:38:33 – 00:20:39:52
Tristan Boyle
Guess that’s who I was thinking, you know.
00:20:39:59 – 00:20:57:19
Agent Palmer
Like, holy shit, there are two members. I actually know. Seven. Jason’s not counting myself. Ooh. And not like I know them, like. Like I’ve met and hung out with, So, yeah, there’s a lot of us. I don’t know how that worked out there.
00:20:57:24 – 00:21:53:22
Tristan Boyle
Yeah. I mean, there’s a there’s quite I, I’ve met a few Tristan’s, not in archeology. I actually went no, I tell a lie. I’m definitely no another Tristan in archeology. But reversing back to your question, yeah, I think I think archeology sometimes has a bit of an image ish problem. And there are questions and very healthy discussions as to how archeology is justified, because I’ve kind of talked about this on my podcast before, and I’ve, I realize sometimes I talk about it in a very abstract sense, but, that the choices that we make in terms of justifying what history we’re wanting to do, we’re almost prioritizing the preservation of some history over other
00:21:53:22 – 00:22:19:37
Tristan Boyle
history. And for me, that’s that’s a bit of a problem, because these choices that we make that, oh, well, like this is really important because it’s going to decay really quickly. Well, or maybe that’s not as important. We kind of give different levels priority to things. And we can never stop the inevitable decay of all things. Everything will decompose.
00:22:19:37 – 00:22:55:41
Tristan Boyle
Everything will decay to some extent. Right? Our choices are only what we preserve and to what level. And for the last, I’d say, 100 years, those decisions, whether like they’re decisions that were meant, meant in a certain way or not, they have done they have kind of reinforced the way, 20th century people saw the world where they saw certain races as, like, more important and superior to others and other people just, you know, like, naturally not as intelligent.
00:22:55:45 – 00:23:27:18
Tristan Boyle
And instead of really saying, actually, there’s a lot of history that we’re missing because it was overlooked, because it was seen as not important enough to be prioritized. We should actually be starting to look to that hidden history, not, that history that was overlooked before, and actually start working with that and trying to find a way of digging that up and experiencing that and bringing that to the world.
00:23:27:23 – 00:23:33:52
Agent Palmer
I guess. Doesn’t that also lead you back to the problem of, we can’t record everything?
00:23:33:57 – 00:23:58:21
Tristan Boyle
True. But we can make decisions about what we record? This is this is the thing is like, it’s like, well, my only thing is, well, okay, why are you recording this? Oh, well, it’s because it’s, you know, it’s important. We’ve we’ve, you know, this is this is important stuff. But at the same time, people say that because almost like they’re used to it.
00:23:58:21 – 00:24:18:58
Tristan Boyle
Like there’s stuff you’re used to that you think is important because you’ve heard a lot about it and there’s a lot of money in it because people like to hear about it, you know? And it’s almost like this big circle. So like for me, this is where I put my on my, an archeologist hat. And I say, look, I don’t care about Vikings.
00:24:18:58 – 00:24:40:48
Tristan Boyle
I don’t care about Romans, I don’t care about ancient Egyptians. I don’t care about, like, what the Victorians did for us, you know, give me something good. Give me the archeology of brushing teeth and no joke, no joke. I was at a conference in September and somebody said, like, I, I read this off to them because it’s like one of my things.
00:24:40:49 – 00:25:03:03
Tristan Boyle
Oh, the archeology of brushing teeth. Students interested in that. And she said to me, wait a minute, Tristan. I actually know somebody who’s done about the archeology of brushing teeth. And and I was like, no way. So, that that was amazing for me. That was validation. But the reason why I say it’s kind of important to think about the archeology of brushing teeth.
00:25:03:12 – 00:25:15:10
Tristan Boyle
I don’t know, actually. Just I’ll pass this one to you. Why do you think a the archeology brushing teeth is important? And B, why do you think, why do you think people haven’t been interested in that?
00:25:15:15 – 00:25:46:48
Agent Palmer
Well, I think a, and b are probably the same answer because everyone does it. So because it’s universal, it’s it’s international. It’s, it’s it’s regardless of race or gender or creed, everybody there’s always dental care. And I mean. It’s just a thing like it’s a constant like drinking water. So nobody’s going to go back and be like, why are we drinking water?
00:25:46:48 – 00:25:56:19
Agent Palmer
I feel like the because everybody does it because it’s so like ambiguous. That’s why, A and B.
00:25:56:24 – 00:26:27:56
Tristan Boyle
So one of the things that archeologists might use in terms of like for example, find out the age of a skeleton is to look at tooth wear analysis. Now, tooth wear analysis shows us principally, things like, teeth like they’ve been chewing lots of hard, like, hard, fibrous materials or, it can show us, like the cavities, abscesses, but it can give us sometimes the rough age of a person.
00:26:28:01 – 00:27:08:22
Tristan Boyle
Especially with the how children’s teeth erupt in different sets. You know, and what my question was to, tooth researcher was basically, now that people more regularly brush with things like fluoride based stuff, you know, we’ll archeologists in the future have a problem aging people’s teeth. Will it present an issue when we’re looking at diets of the 21st century and, you know, like finding out like what people’s teeth are like, I think, you know, for example, you know, the British, you know, the, the stereotype that I still don’t understand, of British people with bad teeth.
00:27:08:27 – 00:27:30:39
Tristan Boyle
You know, I, I’m fascinated by the idea that, like, in some future archeology goes to America and, like, finds that everybody has all these, like, veneers and like, like pristine white teeth and, like, tries to make up, like some sort of ritualistic, kind of like interpretation of. Oh, well, they all just, they, they pray to the smile of God.
00:27:30:39 – 00:27:40:02
Tristan Boyle
And they thought the teeth were a sign of, you know, wealth and good health. And only the men with great teeth could get a woman and all this, you know?
00:27:40:13 – 00:28:03:50
Agent Palmer
Look, listen, I, I watched my fair share of, panel shows because, the the UK has them and we don’t, and there’s a lot of good teeth on British panel shows, so, I mean, unless, like, everybody with bad teeth is not allowed to be a celebrity or on TV. Like, there’s clearly that is a misnomer.
00:28:03:50 – 00:28:05:15
Agent Palmer
Like, it’s just.
00:28:05:20 – 00:28:22:23
Tristan Boyle
Yeah. Yeah, there’s I mean, there’s definitely a class element to it and a wealth element to it. I will say that, you know, there’s there’s very few people who would be well known as celebrities who have bad teeth. There are a couple. Well, there are a couple that big.
00:28:22:23 – 00:28:48:21
Agent Palmer
So what’s another question, which is if I presume that there are very few, I don’t want to say poor archeologists, but if you don’t have money, it’s very hard to do. Or if you don’t have funding, it’s it’s pretty hard to do so what is the class system say about, prioritizing? Because that’s basically where you’re getting your money, right?
00:28:48:25 – 00:29:29:58
Tristan Boyle
So I, I for the last five years have sat on the Scottish group, of the chartered Institute for archeologists. So the chartered insofar archeologists is basically a, a body that seeks to kind of create a code of conduct for archeologists, but broadly kind of like looks kind of into archeologists as professionals. So I’ll, I’m going to put on my, my kind of like archeology, workforce hat and say that archeology still is one of the, most poorly paid jobs.
00:29:29:58 – 00:29:59:22
Tristan Boyle
That requires a degree. And this this is one of the this is one of the problems that we are having is that people are often chased away from archeology as a career because the conditions are very difficult. So like, when I was an archeologist for three months before I realized, look, I, I cannot that was a commercial archeologist, I cannot, I cannot live like this.
00:29:59:22 – 00:30:24:47
Tristan Boyle
So, like, you were kind of expected to kind of phone up on the, on the Friday to see if you had work on the Monday you’d be given a week, or you’d be given three weeks here and you had to kind of like be prepared to travel, you know, different parts of the country and build up some experience, you know, hopping about the place and then maybe, maybe after a year somebody might give you a permanent contract.
00:30:24:52 – 00:31:03:35
Tristan Boyle
So it’s really uncertain. There’s not really a lot of job security when you start out. And, it means that it’s quite difficult to work and live and be stable. As an archeologist, I remember meeting somebody who said to me like, they were 35, all their friends had houses and families, and they were the only one who couldn’t get a mortgage, because they, you know, the the way they were digging, they were, you know, they had temporary job after temporary job, you know, and they loved doing it, and that’s why they kept doing it.
00:31:03:35 – 00:31:12:38
Tristan Boyle
But it had its sacrifices. And I wish archeology didn’t impose such sacrifices on people. I wish it was a bit better.
00:31:12:47 – 00:31:27:49
Agent Palmer
All right. So I’m going to ask the question I, I I’m not trying to be insensitive. Right. But the other digging in dirt quote unquote profession is paleontology.
00:31:27:54 – 00:31:28:36
Tristan Boyle
Yeah.
00:31:28:40 – 00:31:56:53
Agent Palmer
And, I’m very aware that you do not mix the two. But, I mean, is this a scenario where it’s kind of similar where I can’t imagine paleontologists have it any better early on? And is there any, like, camaraderie that you guys, as professionals have? Because, like, if you’re not teaching, it’s not an easy road.
00:31:56:58 – 00:32:24:43
Tristan Boyle
I think I like I think there’s, I think archeologists have solidarity with a lot of workers. And, there’s actually a move to properly unionize a lot of working archeologists. That’s kind of growing, there’s a sentiment that there’s needs for much better working conditions overall. And it’s not just pay. I think it’s also to do with the working conditions.
00:32:24:43 – 00:32:49:03
Tristan Boyle
You know, how much you’re out on site, you know how much travel you’re doing, etc., etc. and I would say that if there’s any paleontologists out there who are suffering or like having to deal with the same issues, I think there’s definitely room for solidarity under that umbrella. I definitely, I definitely think so. But I think also, you know, even teaching, even teaching is difficult.
00:32:49:05 – 00:33:12:46
Tristan Boyle
You know, I remember reading a paper that said, although universities largely say that you do 40% of your time teaching 40% of your time is research and 20% is admin, that in fact, the admin is about 35%. And so you have to cut into the percentages of time for your other stuff to try and make up for it.
00:33:12:51 – 00:33:39:37
Tristan Boyle
But of course, you can’t reduce the amount of time that people are in classes for. So then your research suffers. So actually, if you’re an academic, it’s it’s tough. And that’s because, you know, universities and research facilities are being run as businesses, archeology companies are being, you know, run very strictly like businesses to the point and the detriment, of their workers.
00:33:39:37 – 00:33:46:18
Tristan Boyle
And I think and I think that’s a terrible thing. And I think that should that should improve. I think conditions need to improve.
00:33:46:25 – 00:34:13:40
Agent Palmer
Was was there ever a golden age for archeology, like where, maybe conditions have always been conditions. Right. But like where it was I don’t know where there was more money in it. Maybe not to be earned, but, you know, to fund digs or where, you know, interest was more I mean, it’s I don’t know, I like I know you write and occasionally I read some history books, but I don’t hear about it like, ever.
00:34:13:45 – 00:34:37:53
Tristan Boyle
No. And you won’t unless you’re in the industry. I mean, this is this is the same for other industries as well. But archeologists, you know, like, I, I hate to say it, but if an archeologist gets an interpretation of an archeological site is wrong, nobody dies. However, if the surgeon get something wrong that can injure somebody, you know what I mean?
00:34:37:58 – 00:35:07:35
Tristan Boyle
And so because of that difference in what they do, sometimes there’s this idea that, oh, well, it’s not worth our time to think about it. However, the thing is, archeology is very young. As a commercial enterprise. The first archeology units in the UK, that’s archeology companies, only go far as back as the 90s. So they’re really not that old.
00:35:07:40 – 00:35:21:01
Agent Palmer
So was it other countries doing it or was it like individual enterprises doing like I mean obviously there was digging happening before. I mean yeah, whatever that. But what were those then.
00:35:21:05 – 00:35:55:21
Tristan Boyle
So commercial units started in the 90s. Some of them formed out of the back of university, like organizations who were doing the digging for research purposes. However, what happened was, the planning laws were amended to say that if you’re doing you new development, you have to do an archeological survey to protect heritage. From that, the more and more development was happening that the universities, they couldn’t keep up with their research.
00:35:55:21 – 00:36:18:40
Tristan Boyle
So, archeological companies were created in order to do this development work. And it’s almost like they’re kind of like parallel to the construction industry because the construction industry relies on them going out, surveying, digging up anything important. And then, you know, then it can be held and maybe then interpreted later on.
00:36:18:45 – 00:36:29:11
Agent Palmer
What I mean, I guess so you’re you’re in the UK, you’ve been around a lot longer as a civilization then than I have here in America.
00:36:29:18 – 00:36:29:42
Tristan Boyle
00:36:31:40 – 00:36:42:16
Agent Palmer
But we don’t I don’t really think we’ve got that here to that extent. Unless you’re in a specific spot in the States.
00:36:42:20 – 00:36:57:09
Tristan Boyle
Well, I think what always fascinates me about the United States is the amount of archeology that people don’t recognize is archeology. So I know that if you’re in the West.
00:36:57:09 – 00:36:59:31
Agent Palmer
Look, we’re famous for our ignorance, okay?
00:36:59:31 – 00:37:44:53
Tristan Boyle
Yes. No, no, in most certainly. And let let’s let’s be clear, America has a history stretching back, at least if not more than 14,000 years. And it’s probably even further back than that. And the difference is that in America, a lot of people who lived there before the Europeans came over, they, they created, like they create mines, for example, there’s like, a lot of, an American Midwest had a lot of mines built in it, you know, these kind of like hilly kind of, structures sometimes in the shape of different animals and stuff like that.
00:37:44:53 – 00:38:33:59
Tristan Boyle
It’s really interesting, to look up. So, there’s a lot of history and evidence that, like, for example, trees were used as marking posts and were monuments in of themselves and obviously trees. Some trees lived for a very long time, others don’t. They get chopped down. There’s a lot of kind of like history in America before the Europeans arrived that a lot of people just don’t know exists, because it’s not it’s it doesn’t take the same form as it does in Europe, for example, you know, in, in Western, in the west of America, you could be walking on the desert and you can literally find like sites just on the top of
00:38:33:59 – 00:38:58:00
Tristan Boyle
the desert. You could find like piles of, like, rock flakes from where somebody is trying to make stone tools you can find like, like, lots of different pieces of information there, but it’s not in the way that you would think in Europe. What you find, like we find Roman roads, we find like, Neolithic pottery and stuff like that.
00:38:58:04 – 00:39:16:22
Tristan Boyle
It’s it’s just very different, but it’s definitely there. And, I think a lot of Americans, not not to put anything on you, Jason, but a lot of Americans feel as if, like, America wasn’t really much of anything before the Europeans arrived. Well, there’s.
00:39:16:27 – 00:39:36:20
Agent Palmer
That Eurocentric, view of history is what was in our textbooks. I mean, are they they’re Native Americans, although to be fair, I don’t know what they’re called anymore, whatever the politically correct. Yeah. No, no, these are,
00:39:36:24 – 00:39:38:51
Tristan Boyle
I think many Americans find.
00:39:38:55 – 00:40:08:48
Agent Palmer
But to be fair, in my textbooks in like, middle and high school, they were Indians. And we didn’t learn about them except to say that, you know, we traded them beads for New York like, it was very, they were, they weren’t they were walk on roles despite the fact that they were here first. They were walk on roles in the movie only when White Man showed up.
00:40:08:48 – 00:40:34:42
Agent Palmer
I mean, that’s basically the way it was in our textbooks. And so I don’t think it’s being amended, like, I don’t know, like history books. I mean, I guess this would I don’t know if this is an archeology thing, but like, how often did textbooks get rewritten like history books. So like that has a colored my view I guess, so to speak.
00:40:34:42 – 00:40:59:29
Agent Palmer
So I mean I, and I don’t read a lot about I, I’ve actually, I read a lot of history books. Right. And a lot of it’s modern history, I’ve been digging a lot into technology. But you know, I read the last history history book I read was The Source by James Michener. And I have read I read that like a decade ago, I feel like, and that was not from my own backyard.
00:40:59:29 – 00:41:14:43
Agent Palmer
That’s a a tale over somewhere in the Middle East. So I haven’t even done a good job of, correcting my ill informed old history books.
00:41:14:48 – 00:41:39:17
Tristan Boyle
I, I think I think the thing is that, though the choices that were made when it came to those textbooks were actually political ones and social ones. I think, America right now is going through, a very weird tantrum. I think politically and like UK America is not alone because the UK is doing it as well.
00:41:39:17 – 00:42:10:31
Agent Palmer
Yeah, absolutely. It’s it’s gotta be the I mean, I did want to ask you this and this is a pause right here. So here’s the question. Is there another time in history where two major powers were having crises at the same time? And obviously these crises are not quite related. They’re kind of on their own. But like, has that ever happened, like did was there ever anything in like one of the old, Chinese dynasties at the same time as, like there was the Rome was burning like, is that.
00:42:10:31 – 00:42:10:46
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:42:10:54 – 00:42:36:52
Tristan Boyle
I mean, yeah, all the time. Okay. Like, I mean, if you look at history, you’ll be surprised at how often, things crumble and things fall. I mean, the thing is, you know, I mean, the famous one is obviously the fall of the Roman Empire, which, to be absolutely honest, is like a number of different social and economic policies that the Roman state took.
00:42:36:57 – 00:43:00:58
Tristan Boyle
And it’s actually rather boring in a sense, because it’s not this kind of like one last final stand battle where the whole place was brought to ruin. It was more like a slow drip drop of, like, bad decisions, repercussions. And I mean, the thing is, the East Roman Empire continued on after the Western Roman Empire had fallen.
00:43:01:02 – 00:43:30:59
Tristan Boyle
Like it wasn’t as if, like the whole of the Roman Empire dissolved. I mean, it’s stretched from all the way in Spain, all the way over through Italy, all the way to like Bulgaria, like it was really, really big. And this is the thing is that, like when you start looking, asking people about the Romans in, for example, I was speaking to a researcher at the conference there, and she was telling me about, Romans in the Balkan states.
00:43:31:04 – 00:43:52:54
Tristan Boyle
For your listeners, that’s places like south of Ukraine and like kind of on the edge of the Mediterranean Sea. So if you look up at the map, as you’re mentioning, see the Balkan states are like, you know, Bulgaria, Romania, those kind of places, Hungary, etc.. Although I don’t know if any Hungarians would be actually offended at that.
00:43:52:59 – 00:44:36:49
Tristan Boyle
I mean, that kind of general area of Europe, but not a lot of people think Romans Roman history is there. But actually there were massive cities there, you know, and obviously Constantinople was a very it like, important city in the past, you know, that there’s so much that people can simplify, because I think one of the issues that the US and the UK are having at the moment is a realized nation that the, belief that their, their power and their might and their wealth is like just and, you know, earned through honest means is actually a fallacy.
00:44:36:49 – 00:45:03:24
Tristan Boyle
You know, there’s a lot of power and strength and bloodshed that happened that made those countries the way they are. And coming to terms of that is very, very difficult. And that’s why I think history presents know a chance for people to reflect in a deep time kind of way, and for people to kind of see the future.
00:45:03:24 – 00:45:31:11
Tristan Boyle
I’d of not making the same mistakes as the mistakes made in the past. I think that’s one of the really important takes here. I mean, the thing is, you know, should, you know, if America was illegitimate in its inception because it was based on the genocide of Native American peoples and it was based off slavery, you know, if if it’s illegitimate, should it not exist?
00:45:31:11 – 00:45:44:52
Tristan Boyle
And if it doesn’t exist, where do all the Americans go? It’s a really, you know, like then you have to ask, well, if it then should exist in what form should exist? And this is the same for the UK.
00:45:44:57 – 00:46:10:18
Agent Palmer
Well, I guess the bigger follow up question is, number one, we have to do the research. I mean, and that’s a big assumption, right. But number two is we have to tell the story and but you can’t just tell the story to me. Like we have to tell the story. Like how I mean, I guess that’s the big like question mark in the room is how do you get the story out there?
00:46:10:18 – 00:46:32:51
Agent Palmer
I mean, you’re involved in a podcast network, but I mean, do do we need to go bigger? Like, is this a thing where, like, somebody’s got to get some money and throw into Hollywood? Like, we need to tell these stories, like, how do we how do we get these stories out there to the to to like the masses almost.
00:46:32:56 – 00:46:58:27
Tristan Boyle
I think when I, when I started my podcasting journey and when I started actually my general archeology journey, I, I kind of saw a very narrow definition of what I thought was the only way forward. I thought we had to be very, very kind of, like, caustic, very kind of, reactionary and very kind of ready to take down, you know, people who got it wrong.
00:46:58:31 – 00:47:24:41
Tristan Boyle
And now I, I’ve kind of matured in my stance because I feel as if you could never tackle something with just one approach. There needs to be a number of different approaches that that should be made. There’s space for everyone. One of them really important things, I think, in history and the past is that we start including more people.
00:47:24:41 – 00:47:53:39
Tristan Boyle
We don’t say like, oh, you can’t talk about the past because you don’t know enough. Well, they can learn enough. You know, you don’t know. You can’t speak about the past because this, that and the other. And obviously there’s issues with that. And you know, I’m more than happy to discuss that. But like as a general point for me, if we want to really make history more accessible and people getting excited about it and learning about it properly, we have to include them.
00:47:53:44 – 00:48:37:21
Tristan Boyle
You know, that’s really it. We have to include other people in the conversation. We can’t be hidden away. We can’t be like, talking amongst ourselves. We have to be doing it. And that’s why I wanted to make a podcast. And that’s why when Chris Webster, who does the CRM archeology podcast, kind of put a call out to make a network, I was like, ready to call because for me, it’s about connecting people to that information and getting them excited and having other people go, hey, well, you know, like they’re involved and they’re not like some ivory tar elite.
00:48:37:25 – 00:48:45:17
Tristan Boyle
You know, maybe, maybe I can have my say as well. And that’s that’s why I think, we need to be heading towards.
00:48:45:22 – 00:49:12:44
Agent Palmer
All right. So I, I want to turn this completely positive. So, Tristan, you are probably, you know, much more historically well-rounded than I am. So could you tell me, like, one interesting, like positive story of of of or one of your favorite stories of something you’ve learned, in your archeological journey?
00:49:12:49 – 00:49:45:31
Tristan Boyle
Food. This is, this is a really this is a difficult one because I obviously want to be positive with this, but it’s going to have to take a little mix of some negativity as well. So can can I prepare this complex answer? Sure. I’ll make it nice. I’ll round it off. Okay. So I, I heard about somebody doing research a couple of years ago.
00:49:45:31 – 00:50:08:18
Tristan Boyle
I think this is back in 2014, 2015 now, I, I started my podcast in 2014 and I was I had a chance then, you know, like before I was doing my archeology podcast, I didn’t feel like I could talk to other archeologists because I was just fresh out of university. I hadn’t really done a lot of my own unique research.
00:50:08:18 – 00:50:27:25
Tristan Boyle
I wasn’t really I wasn’t important, you know, but having the podcast meant I could go up to people and be like, oh, well, I’ve got a podcast. You want to talk to me about your research and like, you know, start a conversation. One of my favorite episodes that I’ve ever done, was with somebody called Teresa O’Mahony.
00:50:27:30 – 00:50:57:24
Tristan Boyle
Now, Teresa started doing archeology later on in life. And she started her degree, I think, in her 50s. And one of the really special things about Teresa, was that she was really, really, like, committed to making archeology better because, she was, she had disabilities, through her life, and some of them were physical disabilities.
00:50:57:28 – 00:51:24:09
Tristan Boyle
And one of the things that she noticed was that when she was applying to field schools to get, like. So field schools are where you pay to go on a dig, as part of, like when you’re a student to kind of like get experience so that when you leave, she studies, you can get a job. She noticed that not very many of them, were accepting her night in her class.
00:51:24:09 – 00:52:00:07
Tristan Boyle
Those those same field schools would accept her classmates at a much higher rate. And she spoke to some other people who were in the similar position to her, who might have certain disabilities that basically they were told that they were a liability to these organizations who did field schools and that the insurance wouldn’t cover them. Now, she then began to kind of figure out that in archeology, being disabled was a big problem.
00:52:00:07 – 00:52:32:05
Tristan Boyle
It was a barrier. It was a huge barrier. And she actually started dedicating her research that she would then eventually do in, trying to figure out how bad the problem was. And I mean, you know, she has, stories of people being turned away from job interviews, being told, like, why even here. And she was determined out of that to create guidelines that would help employers.
00:52:32:05 – 00:53:04:28
Tristan Boyle
She was determined to change people’s attitudes towards disabled people. And her goal was to make archeology a shining beacon of what an industry can do, by being more accepting, because there were so many good, hard working people who were being denied work because the employer had prejudged them, you know, without having seen them work. And that was the key point.
00:53:04:33 – 00:53:33:28
Tristan Boyle
It wasn’t based on what performance they had. It was just this idea that the employer had that, oh, I don’t know if I could deal with this. So I, I spoke to her about podcasts and I had, the opportunity to then meet her at a conference, and she was just she was absolutely lovely and amazing and just such an honest, person who saw the podcast as just this amazing thing.
00:53:33:28 – 00:54:01:25
Tristan Boyle
She was she was so on board, she was like saying to me, look, as soon as I get the, foundation, I want to start ready. I want you to train up people to, like, make podcasts and stuff. I want you to be, you know, like helping out. And I was I was totally up for that. So I, you know, I’m still, so she has been doing this and she’s done her masters and she was about to start a PhD, and unfortunately, she fell ill.
00:54:01:29 – 00:54:42:17
Tristan Boyle
And it was just last month that, she passed away. And I think a lot of us in archeology who knew her, especially, in public archeology, which is kind of like where I place myself as public archeology. We were shocked, and we were deeply saddened, by her passing. But when I was talking to people about her, it was the it was the resolve that people had to continue on her work and her legacy that, like, filled me with such joy.
00:54:42:17 – 00:55:05:00
Tristan Boyle
It was amazing. Just like the amount of people who were just ready to fight in the same way she did. You know, like she would, you know, stop truth to power. She was she was there every single time. A relentless font of energy, ready to help out when even she was, like, feeling bad. She like she was feeling ill.
00:55:05:00 – 00:55:34:41
Tristan Boyle
She was ready to do stuff to help other people. And I was so moved by the way people talked about her and what they said about her. And for me, if there’s anything positive by archeology, it’s the fact that there are people like Teresa out there who are ready to shake things up, to make a difference and to do the right thing, and in so doing, like spur on everyone else to do it as well.
00:55:34:45 – 00:55:43:13
Tristan Boyle
And yeah, and that’s, that’s kind of like, that’s, that’s the joy that I see out of the darkness.
00:55:43:18 – 00:56:04:46
Agent Palmer
That’s I mean, that’s beautiful story number one. And number two, it leads me to a, a question, which is, is the key to our I mean, I guess it’s probably always been this way, but I’m going to ask you anyway because I feel like there’s got to be a, a better way, more eloquent way of saying it.
00:56:04:51 – 00:56:20:37
Agent Palmer
And if nothing else, you can just say it because with your accent, it’ll sound better. Is the key to our future. The past. Like. I mean, I feel like now more than ever, that statement is true.
00:56:20:42 – 00:56:54:34
Tristan Boyle
I think the way one of the things I’m writing at the moment in terms of podcasts is I’m trying to kind of get a few ideas together where I think it’s difficult to think about the past without comparing it to the present, and it’s difficult to think about the future without comparing it to the past. And, I mean, I was having this discussion with somebody about, I don’t know if you’re very familiar with the arguments of free will, whether it’s deterministic.
00:56:54:34 – 00:57:23:37
Tristan Boyle
Yeah. That or, you know, or something else or fatalist or, you know, compatible list. There’s lots of different terms for either, you know, the world can only exist, the reality can only happen in one way kind of thing. Or do we actually choose to do stuff, etc., etc., etc. but I think when we talk about history, it’s so impossible to talk about history without talking about the future.
00:57:23:42 – 00:58:08:43
Tristan Boyle
And vice versa, that we almost live in this middle state between past and future. So like the past represents to us, as a society, like our early childhood and the future is the embodiment of things that could be when you lose a sense of concept, of what the future could be, that you lose your way, you know, I think for me, in my darkest times when I’ve really suffered and been in a kind of state where I couldn’t go on, it’s because I didn’t know the future, you know, I was incredibly sick last year.
00:58:08:43 – 00:58:41:32
Tristan Boyle
I was in hospital, and, I for a while, I, went to a very bad place mentally. My body was breaking down at that point. I had lots of lots of problems. And one of the things was there was no, prognosis date that they had. My doctor, I think quite rightly. So, kept the recovery time a secret to me because he kind of felt that I could possibly heal quicker, but he didn’t want to give me false hope or lie to me.
00:58:41:44 – 00:59:09:06
Tristan Boyle
So he just didn’t say it. But because I wasn’t sure how long I would suffer for, I felt like I had no future. There was one week where every single day, something else went wrong, and I mean, it went so wrong, I had to go back into the operating theater, several times. So at that point, my future was like nothing.
00:59:09:06 – 00:59:37:58
Tristan Boyle
I was just living every day in agony, and that I went to a really bad place. And I think what society is now experiencing is this lack of a future, you know, this lack of, well, what’s going to happen. You know, every single year we seem to be faced with like things we had no, knowledge of happening, you know, we’re we’re we’re stuck thinking, well, what could go worse?
00:59:38:03 – 01:00:08:34
Tristan Boyle
And then something worse presents itself. And that’s really confusing for us, as both individuals and society. And so I think. We have to be careful not to lean back on history in such a way that all we do is look behind us. We do have to look forward, but we have to be novel and new in the ways in which we can imagine the future.
01:00:08:39 – 01:00:34:22
Tristan Boyle
You know, as much as the game for light is really good fun. I don’t think I would want to live in a full light world. Or June. Isn’t June set in the future? Oh, God, I hope, I hope it is. But, I mean, that kind of. Or Waterworld. That’s that’s a it that’s not one. I mean, do we really want to see the end of the world happen or what’s the alternative?
01:00:34:22 – 01:00:54:33
Agent Palmer
I think the other scary part is, while we have these, fantastical Fallout and Waterworld, but, I think the reality is never going to be that pretty. The reality is, if there is an apocalypse, I mean.
01:00:54:38 – 01:00:55:39
Tristan Boyle
We’re not going to survive.
01:00:55:44 – 01:01:19:09
Agent Palmer
Yeah, there’s there’s not going to be an us really on the other side to, to have the water world. I mean, there’s, there’s only a probably I like to compare everything to Avengers at this point. So, I just, I just, I just imagine that, where Doctor Strange is like, I looked at all these billions of ideas, and there’s only one in which we win.
01:01:19:14 – 01:01:39:28
Agent Palmer
It’s probably true that there’s only one in which an apocalypse happens, and we somehow managed to survive. But this isn’t science fiction. This isn’t comic books. There’s very little chance there’s even less of a chance, mathematically, that that 1% of our survival actually happened.
01:01:39:33 – 01:01:40:22
Tristan Boyle
01:01:40:27 – 01:02:09:00
Agent Palmer
But I still think there’s valid there’s a validation in looking back and looking at the present and keeping an eye to the future and on the horizon, which it’s hard to look in three directions, but all you have to do is move your head. You just can’t be tunnel vision. You can’t always look at the present. You can’t always look at the at history, and you can’t always look at the future because you don’t get the whole picture that way.
01:02:09:04 – 01:02:33:47
Tristan Boyle
I mean the thing is like each in our own lives we have faced this issue as well because I know that I think back to conversations I have that I mean I wish I hadn’t said things and I wish I had done things and you know, I, I, I sometimes even though I love presenting podcasts, I sound really friendly and cheery.
01:02:33:51 – 01:02:57:57
Tristan Boyle
I, I actually sometimes say the wrong thing. A lot of the time. I have been known to insult people and then have to work to win their trust back. I’ve, I’ve had to do that quite a few times because, yeah, I say the wrong thing and I then think about it and and it like, takes over.
01:02:57:57 – 01:03:18:12
Tristan Boyle
It’s kind of like, yeah, I don’t really, I don’t know, it’s difficult. I mean, Jason, is there anything that is there ever a time where you kind of like, think back to like a time when you said something and you were like, oh, I really shouldn’t have said that and just keeps coming back.
01:03:18:16 – 01:03:37:12
Agent Palmer
You know? Yeah. Yes and no. It’s changed. And I won’t say it’s changed since I started this podcast. It’s changed since I was on podcasts in general, because what I find myself doing is thinking more about what I didn’t say.
01:03:37:16 – 01:03:38:04
Tristan Boyle
01:03:38:09 – 01:04:03:45
Agent Palmer
And maybe it’s the difference between, okay, I had something recorded and out there versus I don’t have something recorded and out there. So I can think about all the things I said that were wrong or like, I can’t believe I did that versus now where it’s like, I didn’t follow up that question or I didn’t answer this question properly.
01:04:03:50 – 01:04:21:53
Agent Palmer
Now it’s more the things that I left unsaid and I, I don’t know if it’s kind of two sides of the same coin. Right. Like thinking about the things that you didn’t say is no better or worse than thinking about the things you did say.
01:04:21:58 – 01:04:22:16
Tristan Boyle
Yeah.
01:04:22:16 – 01:04:28:16
Agent Palmer
I’m still living back there in the past. Like, I mean, I got to get my eyes front basically.
01:04:28:21 – 01:04:47:58
Tristan Boyle
Yeah. No, but would I think this is a very normal human thing to do, and I don’t necessarily think, I think you said it best when you said, you know, you can’t be focused one way or another. You know, I think it’s it’s very easy for us to kind of like it’s very easy for us to kind of challenge ourselves sometimes.
01:04:47:58 – 01:05:15:53
Tristan Boyle
And, you know, fight ourselves in a very destructive way. You know, like, I’m very self-critical but in a destructive way. Not in a good way. And there’s some places in which I wish I was a bit more critical of myself that would actually end up doing some positive stuff instead of this kind of like, after the fact.
01:05:15:58 – 01:05:43:57
Tristan Boyle
I shouldn’t have said that or done that, or, I maybe I should have approached this situation in a different way. With podcasts, actually, I actually listen back and some of them I’m actually still, still happy with, which is great, which I think is great. I actually what did I listen to recently? I, I know it’s terrible to listen to yourself, but I don’t know if you ever remember the stranger conversations.
01:05:44:12 – 01:05:53:17
Agent Palmer
I mean, I will tell you and the listeners that I happened to have season one on my hard drive.
01:05:53:22 – 01:05:54:42
Tristan Boyle
Amazing.
01:05:54:47 – 01:06:25:23
Agent Palmer
I also have the few episodes of season two, that, I guess technically I was a part of all three of season two, right? Because there was the one with Chris, Meyer that did air, on the how was your week, honey feed? And then I did the one with Kristen. But yeah, I mean, I, I don’t go back often, but, like, I think I listened to, I’ve listened to my friends more than strangers.
01:06:25:23 – 01:06:35:31
Agent Palmer
Right. Like, I think I’ve listened to Bill’s episode a couple times. I think I’ve listened to Hannah’s episode. Of course I’ve listened to yours. I have gone back and listened to yours.
01:06:35:36 – 01:06:57:25
Tristan Boyle
Yeah. I mean that, you know, that was one of my that was one of like, that is one of my strongest, like, podcasting memories. Is that, I think that’s one of my strongest memories that really just every time I think about it, it’s just positive vibes. Really good. And I think that was one of the best things I ever did in terms of podcasts.
01:06:57:32 – 01:07:28:08
Tristan Boyle
I was definitely one of those things. And, I did listen to it like more recently. And I think I’m pretty sure I still stand by, like everything I said in that, which I’m really happy for, because I think Grant is a really good questioner. I think that was really, really one of the key things. And that’s what I like about certain podcasts, is I think certain podcasts are made good by good questions because I, I actually suck if it’s just me, I really do.
01:07:28:08 – 01:07:39:57
Tristan Boyle
I love asking questions, but if it’s just me doing a monologue, I just I’m not. It’s good. I don’t know. It’s not. It’s not me. You know, all my good episodes are with people.
01:07:40:02 – 01:07:59:38
Agent Palmer
I’ll tell you this little secret that I’ve done with some people, and I won’t say who. They know who they are. I’ve been the audience, the silent majority, so that some of my friends didn’t have to record alone, even though the end product was a monologue.
01:07:59:43 – 01:08:03:26
Tristan Boyle
So good. Because it makes it get you to do that.
01:08:03:33 – 01:08:23:40
Agent Palmer
It makes such a difference. I mean, people don’t, it seems like. What would it make a difference? Like you’re not saying anything. You’re not adding anything to the conversation, but the fact that somebody can see me on screen and they’re talking to me, it doesn’t matter if they’re reading it or they have a loose outline. They’re talking to someone.
01:08:23:40 – 01:08:46:13
Agent Palmer
And even if I Because usually the way that works is they can hear me. So number one, I can be a producer and I can say, you want to redo that line or number two, I can just say, yeah, or like the quintessential like television, like we aren’t hearing anything but the other side, which is just like, yeah,
01:08:46:18 – 01:09:10:25
Agent Palmer
Like even just doing that helps the person who’s talking to no one. As the course of a monologue is just understand that, like, no, they’re talking to because not sometimes it’s just easier not to visualize the audience like to just have one. And I’ve been that and it it’s super helpful for some people. Not everybody needs it.
01:09:10:29 – 01:09:24:54
Agent Palmer
I, I don’t I don’t need it necessarily when I do my intros and outros, but, that’s because I don’t need people hearing all my outtakes, like, the those are one like.
01:09:24:59 – 01:09:27:07
Tristan Boyle
I’m that one. Take Charlie, like, come on.
01:09:27:09 – 01:09:57:21
Agent Palmer
I said, you know, so it’s it’s what it is. And I mean, listen, I, we started a little bit talking about our history, and, I mean, you and I, I wish I had all the episodes because I don’t, but you and I worked on, a short lived show where Diamond Dave wrote, and I edited, and then you, narrated, the Chronicles unwritten.
01:09:57:21 – 01:10:26:55
Agent Palmer
And so I want to tell you that as a, as an international starting in Canada, edited in, America and then, like, you know, recorded in the UK, like it was, it was a sight to behold that, like, I’ve still never met any of you. Yeah. But that we put that together, like, that was amazing. And I, I was privy to some of your outtakes.
01:10:27:00 – 01:10:31:19
Tristan Boyle
Oh. No. And and it was called A River.
01:10:31:24 – 01:11:04:44
Agent Palmer
And one of the one of the things that I learned and I tried to help out with was like, towards the end for, like, the last 2 or 3 episodes, I tried to edit with you in mind because there were occasionally some words that would trip you up. So I would I would edit them out of Dave’s drafts so that you wouldn’t have to, like, have trouble with this word or like be like, all right, this this alliteration is not going to go well, we’re going to edit one of these word to make this simpler for Tristin to make it easy for.
01:11:04:49 – 01:11:06:34
Tristan Boyle
Yeah.
01:11:06:39 – 01:11:07:47
Agent Palmer
But it’s just one of those things.
01:11:07:47 – 01:11:14:57
Tristan Boyle
You halfway felt like it got easier. I thought I was just getting better at it, but. No, no, I was. Yeah. That’s it. I put the training wheels.
01:11:14:57 – 01:11:17:10
Agent Palmer
Back on, you.
01:11:17:15 – 01:11:18:24
Tristan Boyle
Know?
01:11:18:29 – 01:11:21:58
Agent Palmer
No, I didn’t get better.
01:11:22:03 – 01:11:22:28
Tristan Boyle
I think it.
01:11:22:28 – 01:11:34:01
Agent Palmer
Was probably a little bit of both, I don’t think. I think I, you know.
01:11:34:06 – 01:12:00:36
Agent Palmer
Well, I do feel slightly bad for breaking Tristan’s heart at the end there. I thought I was doing the right thing at the time, making it easier for him. So for that Tristan, I apologize. But for this conversation that we had, where it went and where it didn’t, let me just say, listening back, I may have said the thesis statement, the takeaway for the episode on making sure we look in three directions, keeping our eyes on the past, the present and the future.
01:12:00:41 – 01:12:27:58
Agent Palmer
But it was only because the conversation with Tristan led me there, and it’s an important thing to note. Many people are fascinated with 1 or 2 of the three times the past, the present, or the future. Some are absolutely frightened by one or more of them. Two but the concept of keeping an eye on all three is no different than the moderation that is discussed, and things such as episode four of this podcast with Margo regarding diet, fitness or self-care.
01:12:28:03 – 01:12:59:35
Agent Palmer
I also believe that having these kinds of conversations is important to a well-rounded education, because healthy debate usually leads to more questions than answers, which means the continuing education actually continues. And because the discourse of a lively debate is not always linear, the continuing education can and will go in many different directions. I, for one, am now going to take a look at my reading list and be sure to add some of the history books beyond the volumes I have on the history of technologies.
01:12:59:40 – 01:13:29:12
Agent Palmer
In full disclosure, one of the working titles for this podcast before it was launched was The Continuing Education of Agent Palmer and while I’m happy with the Palmer Files and the description I used for the show on most major podcast apps, Continuing Education still fits as a pillar of what I want to accomplish, because if this podcast is listened to, then the goal would be to educate or inform one of the three parties involved, either myself, the host, my guest, or you, the listener.
01:13:29:16 – 01:13:50:33
Agent Palmer
Some weeks are more obvious and academic in nature, but not all of them will be like that. And as the podcast is still in its infancy, part of that education for me is in doing the podcast. So did you learn anything on this week’s episode? Tweet or email the show and let me know. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode five.
01:13:50:46 – 01:14:17:37
Agent Palmer
As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for some more official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the conversation. Let me hear what you think. You can tweet the show at The Palmer Files. You can tweet myself at Agent Palmer, and you can tweet this week’s guest, Tristan Boyle, at anarcheologist the show email is the Palmer files at gmail.com.
01:14:17:37 – 01:15:26:03
Agent Palmer
And don’t forget to visit Tristan’s podcast network at Archeology Podcast network.com and see what I’ve got going on at Agent palmer.com. You can also hear more of me in the meantime on our liner notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier, and as co-host of the podcast digest with Dan Lizette.
01:15:26:08 – 01:15:30:13
Agent Palmer
So, Tristan, do you have one final question for me?
01:15:30:17 – 01:15:57:54
Tristan Boyle
Yes, I do, I do, in fact, after all the years of, like, being around podcasters, doing podcasts, editing other people’s podcasts, editing other people’s shows, editing scripts for other people’s shows, adding a helping guide and all the behind the scenes things. How does it feel to now be doing the podcast and be the presenter of it?
01:15:57:55 – 01:16:10:53
Tristan Boyle
Have you always wanted to be the presenter of your podcast, or do you feel like this is something you’ve kind of almost had had to do? Because that’s what everybody does. What, how do you feel about that?
01:16:10:58 – 01:16:36:57
Agent Palmer
I, I won’t say I had to do it. But I will say it’s a scenario where like, it was it was, it was a confluence of a lot of things. I spent two years thinking about doing a podcast. So first I needed to figure out what I was going to do. I think the all of the things you just mentioned, of the things I did made it easier to do.
01:16:37:02 – 01:17:02:02
Agent Palmer
I’m not afraid of the mic, you know, I’m not afraid of editing, and I’m not afraid to reach out and book guest because I’ve done that for other people. What it really boiled down to was, I for a short time on my blog, I was doing interrogations, which were Q and A’s, which is the only way you can really have a conversation in text form.
01:17:02:07 – 01:17:27:47
Agent Palmer
And they’re not necessarily fulfilling. I’m not unhappy with them, but there’s only so much you can do. I’m not going to email you back and forth. Tristan 100 times and put edit the whole thing together and put it on my blog. Having a conversation was going to be better, and I didn’t have, I can blame a few people if I really wanted to, but there was.
01:17:27:52 – 01:17:55:30
Agent Palmer
I was meeting more people and I was meeting authors and, you know, telling people that I was involved in podcasting. And then the follow up was always, but I don’t have a show to put you on like none of the shows I was involved with were for an author. A it’s not a it’s, you know, not a slight on anyone, but all of the people whose podcasts I was working on, they don’t have time to read a book and then have an author on.
01:17:55:35 – 01:18:14:05
Agent Palmer
So I can read your book and write the review on my blog. But you’re not going to be able to be on a podcast. And, I haven’t had an author on yet, but there’s going to be authors on this show, and that’s a big reason. One of the big reasons why is I want to talk to these authors about the books they’ve they’ve written.
01:18:14:10 – 01:18:37:13
Agent Palmer
And I want to know what else they’re reading. And their influences, but I didn’t have a platform for them. And now I do. And I have a platform for other people. Like, I have a platform for you, and I’ve like, so I can have these conversations. And anybody who’s familiar with the back catalog of the proxy cast, as it were, a lot of those were fun shows.
01:18:37:13 – 01:19:00:20
Agent Palmer
I didn’t I I didn’t really do a lot of serious discussion, and that’s really what I wanted this to be. And it was always going to be easier to start my own show than to convince somebody else. Like, do you mind? Do you mind doing a serious conversation and dropping the humor altogether? Like, I’m not saying you can’t have a good time, but can we?
01:19:00:25 – 01:19:22:25
Agent Palmer
Not with the dick and fart jokes. So it was just going to be easier and and and thinking about it for two years and helping everybody with all their stuff, you start to tick boxes. This is what I want to do. This is what I don’t want to do. And the idea of the show gets narrower until I have a show.
01:19:22:30 – 01:19:23:56
Agent Palmer
I hope this answered your question.
01:19:24:03 – 01:19:35:36
Tristan Boyle
But it’s really interesting that you’re saying this because it’s quite similar reason as to why I started podcasting when I was 16 years old. I’ve technically been podcasting for 12 years.
01:19:35:41 – 01:19:38:32
Agent Palmer
Brag about it. Fine.
01:19:38:37 – 01:20:01:44
Tristan Boyle
No, no, no, it’s it’s, you know what? I, I had some hiatuses in the middle. But when I say it was 2014 when I started the An archeologist podcast, which now has become the Modern Myth podcast. I’m, I’m inserting the names, so that you can go and find it. So anyway, what was I going to say?
01:20:01:44 – 01:20:04:11
Agent Palmer
Oh, it’s it’s all going to be in the show notes. Yeah, I.
01:20:04:14 – 01:20:29:37
Tristan Boyle
Know, but I like saying it as well as my show. What was it? Yeah. So when I, when I was in it was 2014. I just finished my degree in archeology with chemistry and I was like, right, I need a radical, like, really kind of crazy archeology podcast that isn’t scared to ask really difficult questions and confront difficult history.
01:20:29:42 – 01:20:49:54
Tristan Boyle
Like, I’m looking through the wall and they’re all like, this is what happened in the room. You’re in Britain. This is, archeology Indiana Jones. And I’m like, oh my God, it was so bad. So I had to I had to make my own. And I had done a lot of podcasts beforehand, and I think I just had to make it.
01:20:49:59 – 01:21:11:12
Tristan Boyle
There was no choice in it. I had to make it and that’s what I feel is like so important about podcasting is you almost have to feel like you have to make it like there’s a relentless energy behind it. And I think that’s that’s it was always inevitable, Jason. Always inevitable, always doomed, doomed to podcast.
–End Transcription
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).