Episode 112 features Essa Hansen for the third time, who’s returning on the other side of the publication of her Graven trilogy. We discuss taking a break, process, reception and promotion, what has been learned, burnout and much much more…
Throughout the conversation, we discuss:
- Finishing a book trilogy as a writer
- Taking a break
- Burnout
- Success
- What’s next?
- Marketing and promotion
- Fan interaction and reception
- What have you learned?
- A new paradigm, perhaps?
- Balance
- And much more
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Sound Design with Nia Hansen Episode 21
Nophek Gloss with Essa Hansen Episode 32
–End Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:23:29
Agent Palmer
Previously on agent Palmer dot com. Celebrating Sydney in the arts with anthemic Play It safe. Lots of love and laughter in Gracie Allen’s biography by George Burns. And John’s tagline is still processing in my head. You have to grow older, but you don’t have to grow up. This is The Palmer Files episode 112 featuring Essa Hansen. Back for the third time, who’s returning on the other side of the publication of her grave in trilogy.
00:00:23:42 – 00:00:46:54
Agent Palmer
We discussed taking a break process. Reception and promotion. What has been learned? Burnout. And much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:00:46:59 – 00:01:04:03
Agent Palmer
This year.
00:01:04:08 – 00:01:28:33
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 112th episode is Essa Hansen, who’s still working at Skywalker Sound but returns to the show not just as a published author, but as the author of a published trilogy, The Graven Trilogy. For information on my guests day job, listen to episode 21 and for more information on the origins of the Graven Trilogy and the first book, Norfolk.
00:01:28:33 – 00:01:52:43
Agent Palmer
Plus, listen to episode 32. But here and now we’re talking about the other side of that trilogy. We discuss how it feels to have completed the trilogy, burnout from that completion and a demanding day job, fan interaction, promotion and marketing, the creative process. And just what will the recovery process be and when all of that, plus a whole lot more, is coming your way shortly.
00:01:52:44 – 00:02:17:19
Agent Palmer
But first, remember, if you want to discuss the episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all contact information for myself and science in my guest in the show notes. There you can find more information about my guests work@Hansen.com. That’s ESR, hsn.com. Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to the Palmer Files at gmail.com.
00:02:17:28 – 00:02:25:07
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:25:12 – 00:02:40:22
Agent Palmer
All right. You have finished a trilogy of books, and you did that all while maintaining, to some extent, many full time job projects.
00:02:40:27 – 00:02:40:56
Essa Hansen
Yes.
00:02:40:59 – 00:02:44:14
Agent Palmer
Have you given yourself a break?
00:02:44:19 – 00:02:47:19
Essa Hansen
I am coming up upon a break now.
00:02:47:24 – 00:02:57:15
Agent Palmer
In the end, the the book’s been. The third book’s been published. You haven’t given it. You didn’t go like I’m done. Here comes the beach.
00:02:57:19 – 00:03:02:10
Essa Hansen
I’m trying. So the book, the book finished for me.
00:03:02:14 – 00:03:12:21
Essa Hansen
At the beginning of this year, 2023, and it came out in July. So there’s a gap where, like most of my part, is finished in production.
00:03:12:26 – 00:03:14:42
Essa Hansen
And it’s not out.
00:03:14:42 – 00:03:19:12
Essa Hansen
Yet. So I’m waiting, you know, for that last sort of final moment.
00:03:19:16 – 00:03:20:17
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:03:20:22 – 00:03:40:38
Essa Hansen
Yeah. But I still had my day job, and that was really busy and getting into the busiest period. So the book came out, but it wasn’t like I could go off on vacation. So now my film project has finished as well, and I’m taking at least a few months off to try and decompress. But that’s going to be a slow process.
00:03:40:43 – 00:04:07:52
Agent Palmer
Well, so this was going to be my my big question for you, because I’m not going to say were the same because I just am incapable of break like a true break. That’s something that personally I just cannot do. I will have to jot down. So I will have to write. I might be able to not record for a few months, but I don’t know if you’ll get me to a point where I won’t be.
00:04:07:52 – 00:04:31:22
Agent Palmer
I won’t think I should write this down like I should. I should write this or so. So just something so like if you have three months upcoming where or months, you know, in general upcoming like are are are you is it a is it a, a genuine do nothing like is it a genuine like I’m just going to read all the books.
00:04:31:22 – 00:04:41:40
Agent Palmer
I’m going to catch up on all the, the, the, the media that has come out. Or is it going to be like, yeah, I mean, maybe, but I also have this other thing I’m going to work on.
00:04:41:44 – 00:04:42:02
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:04:42:02 – 00:04:53:51
Essa Hansen
So before the trilogy, I was more like you or like you. I couldn’t put the brakes on my creative brain if I wanted to, like, even out on vacation. Like, there’s always ideas going and stories going.
00:04:54:02 – 00:04:55:12
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:04:55:17 – 00:05:01:21
Essa Hansen
Now there’s. I can never be bored because there’s always something to learn, something to look up or something to chase.
00:05:01:26 – 00:05:03:23
Essa Hansen
00:05:03:28 – 00:05:13:20
Essa Hansen
And the one surprising thing about, well, the burnout of this and the trilogy done with a demanding day job was that that kind of went away.
00:05:13:34 – 00:05:14:39
Agent Palmer
Oh, okay.
00:05:14:44 – 00:05:15:08
Essa Hansen
And that was.
00:05:15:08 – 00:05:21:27
Essa Hansen
Something that I never thought like. Some of the passion is still there and it’s still something I want to do.
00:05:21:40 – 00:05:25:57
Essa Hansen
But like, my entire creative being is so.
00:05:26:02 – 00:05:35:03
Essa Hansen
Wrung out that it just doesn’t happen. Like, I can’t close the space between what I want to do and the energy that I want back in where I am now.
00:05:35:18 – 00:05:58:13
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, you give me hope that one day I’ll be able because my mind has been and I’ve I think part of it is I’ve never had a large overarching project. I have ongoing small project, and I’d say in the podcast, in the blogger, nothing. But they are a lot. They are. It’s a lot of micro projects.
00:05:58:13 – 00:05:58:35
Agent Palmer
So like.
00:05:58:35 – 00:05:59:11
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I.
00:05:59:11 – 00:06:21:06
Agent Palmer
Finished the draft, I finished the episode moving on to the next. And so like for me, one week without doing anything, with the asterisk that like if I’m healthy because if I’m sick and like laid up, then there’s very little we can do anyway. But like when I genuinely choose to take time off, I, I, I last about three days.
00:06:21:11 – 00:06:28:22
Agent Palmer
Three days is my max and I’m healthy. And so you give me hope that one day I can change.
00:06:28:27 – 00:06:31:12
Essa Hansen
I do think there is a happy middle.
00:06:31:17 – 00:06:32:25
Essa Hansen
I am not there yet.
00:06:32:40 – 00:06:34:46
Essa Hansen
But but yeah, like.
00:06:34:51 – 00:06:35:45
Essa Hansen
Before.
00:06:35:45 – 00:06:52:59
Essa Hansen
I was on, contract on deadline. I could kind of, I could flow with one creative project for a longer term if it felt like it. Or I could switch to another one, or like I could write two months, same time, which I did for a while, or I could kind of bop around and there was no nothing looming, no kind of pressure.
00:06:53:04 – 00:07:08:48
Essa Hansen
But with the trilogy, it really was like three solid years of just this one world. Day in, day out, in between each of our so wishes. This one thing was all I had extra time for it. And that was like, from a creative standpoint.
00:07:08:48 – 00:07:09:12
Essa Hansen
Kind of.
00:07:09:22 – 00:07:27:50
Essa Hansen
New and unexpected for me. Like not having the time luxury to to jump around and just being like in one mode for that long. And I think that’s part of what burned me out faster, was like the intensity of just this one mode, this one like corral of.
00:07:27:50 – 00:07:29:45
Essa Hansen
Thoughts for so long.
00:07:29:51 – 00:08:09:21
Agent Palmer
So now that it’s over, and this is a, a selfish question, and I genuinely mean that to me from the sidelines. You published a trilogy, so victory, right? Victory. But, like, how do you determine success? From from your own, you know, brain like. Because doing it is one part, but there’s always more metrics and like, what are you, you know, is it positive reviews or is it, you know, like publishing has changed so much too.
00:08:09:22 – 00:08:15:01
Agent Palmer
So it’s not always it’s not like it used to be. So like what? What determines success for you?
00:08:15:06 – 00:08:34:10
Essa Hansen
That’s extremely individual. I’ll say up front, like, so every single author’s going to define success differently. And the experiences that I’ve heard of and then I’ve had very wildly. And you really have to define success for yourself because there’s so many different metrics.
00:08:34:15 – 00:08:37:19
Essa Hansen
And you’ll hit some, you’ll lose some.
00:08:37:24 – 00:08:44:18
Essa Hansen
And you just have to keep an eye on what for. You mean success and what fulfills you.
00:08:44:23 – 00:08:46:39
Essa Hansen
So, you know, for me.
00:08:46:39 – 00:09:03:41
Essa Hansen
I was trying to. Trying to create a specific feeling for readers and writing towards a specific kind of reader. And when some of the reviews started coming in, especially at the end of the trilogy, and from readers who have.
00:09:03:41 – 00:09:05:48
Essa Hansen
Stuck through like.
00:09:06:01 – 00:09:16:15
Essa Hansen
From like one to 2 to 3, and we’re kind of picking up everything that I was putting down, and I could tell that they got it in, that I was giving something to them. That was my intention in writing it.
00:09:16:20 – 00:09:16:39
Essa Hansen
That.
00:09:16:39 – 00:09:18:02
Essa Hansen
For me felt like success.
00:09:18:04 – 00:09:18:57
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:09:19:01 – 00:09:25:39
Essa Hansen
More than any kind of metric like that, that what I was conveying was getting through to another human being.
00:09:25:39 – 00:09:26:40
Essa Hansen
And in.
00:09:26:40 – 00:09:27:58
Essa Hansen
The way that I wanted.
00:09:28:03 – 00:09:58:33
Agent Palmer
Though that’s I, I like that because I feel like especially for a trilogy, especially, the way you did it in that each book got progressively not necessarily longer, but more complex. Like which, by the way, not for nothing is the way research is like. That’s just generally how things work. Like you go like, oh, so, I don’t know.
00:09:58:33 – 00:10:18:02
Agent Palmer
I want to learn a little bit more about pottery and then you go, okay, so now I need to know a little bit more about all the different clays. And then I need to know the different temperatures at which all of the clays harden. And like, there is like and just the further you go down, the more complex it gets, which is, I mean, life.
00:10:18:02 – 00:10:18:40
Agent Palmer
I mean that’s just.
00:10:18:40 – 00:10:21:49
Essa Hansen
Yeah, yeah, exactly how it works.
00:10:21:49 – 00:10:45:26
Agent Palmer
But to know that people hung on because like, there has to be a, a drop out rate, like for and I feel like this isn’t just this is just all media, like at a certain point, like there’s people that aren’t going to watch the second movie. There’s people that aren’t going to read the second book. And then of those people, there’s going to be people that don’t do the other.
00:10:45:26 – 00:10:50:17
Agent Palmer
So like, of course there’s a yeah.
00:10:50:22 – 00:10:51:06
Essa Hansen
And there’s.
00:10:51:11 – 00:10:57:55
Essa Hansen
There’s at one point any of the specific there’s like a, an average kind of ratio of drop off in a series.
00:10:58:06 – 00:10:58:46
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:10:58:51 – 00:11:03:07
Essa Hansen
And I don’t remember those numbers now, but there is like a figure.
00:11:03:12 – 00:11:04:29
Essa Hansen
And I sort.
00:11:04:29 – 00:11:34:06
Essa Hansen
Of also know the reasons why readers would drop, like, bounce off of book two or book three and like, not continue on. Okay. But it was definitely more uplifting than I expected. And like, just elbows deep in writing and meeting deadlines and getting this thing made to see that readers were, you know, carrying through and responding to and enjoying like the scope as it expands in that way.
00:11:34:20 – 00:12:02:17
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I without spoilers, I can selfishly say, I, I haven’t been able to really talk about your book yet, the third book, because my partner hasn’t read it yet. And so I’m waiting for that because I got to talk a lot about this. I get to relive it with her, just like I got to relive the second book, because she got it after me.
00:12:02:22 – 00:12:29:44
Agent Palmer
And so like, I get to relive it at that point, but very much the intervening months is very much like when you watch a movie that you don’t want to spoil and you’re like, did any did anybody see it yet? Come on, somebody, somebody’s got to see this movie so I can talk about it. And so like, I, I’ve kind of like I’m in a very privileged position to be like, well, I’ll be able to talk about it.
00:12:29:49 – 00:12:40:04
Agent Palmer
Spoiler. All I want, but I just, I’m, I don’t know, I’ve turned into a spoiler free guy. It’s just,
00:12:40:09 – 00:12:59:45
Essa Hansen
Well, and I imagine it’s different with, like, like media that’s smaller and less consumed. It’s like harder to find those even, like, on social media that it’s like hard to find those people to kind of gush about something or discuss something versus like, you know, the big franchises that everyone’s talking about at the time, most of which I’ve missed.
00:12:59:45 – 00:13:04:35
Essa Hansen
Because I have been so busy. So I see it happening and I’m like, I can’t engage.
00:13:04:35 – 00:13:05:49
Essa Hansen
In any of that.
00:13:05:54 – 00:13:06:30
Agent Palmer
Well.
00:13:06:35 – 00:13:07:22
Essa Hansen
And then.
00:13:07:27 – 00:13:08:36
Essa Hansen
Five years later, I watch.
00:13:08:36 – 00:13:11:22
Essa Hansen
And I gotta keep it to myself.
00:13:11:26 – 00:13:14:48
Agent Palmer
I mean, you don’t have to, some of us. So, look, I will.
00:13:14:48 – 00:13:16:45
Essa Hansen
Admit it’s, you know, on social media.
00:13:16:45 – 00:13:46:11
Agent Palmer
Some of us are just as far behind as you are. And like every, no, nobody can keep up on all of it, right. But I, I, I can’t not ask this question. And if you can’t answer, that’s fine, but I have there have been, different media talks, mediums talks.
00:13:46:23 – 00:13:51:09
Essa Hansen
Different medium talks. Possibly.
00:13:51:09 – 00:14:07:48
Agent Palmer
Okay. Well, I because that was it. I listen back for a little bit because I was like, I think I talked about this during this when we talked about the first book. And and I was like I have to, I have to ask again.
00:14:07:52 – 00:14:09:15
Essa Hansen
Okay. Well now I can’t.
00:14:09:15 – 00:14:10:52
Essa Hansen
Remember what my answer was.
00:14:10:52 – 00:14:25:48
Agent Palmer
You, I, I just said, I think you just said it would be interesting, but I, I all, all I know is that, my $0.02 to you was that it would work better as a limited series than a movie.
00:14:25:53 – 00:14:32:14
Essa Hansen
Yes. I agree that as a movie would be tricky to condense like the first book.
00:14:32:16 – 00:14:39:10
Agent Palmer
Or you just all of a sudden in here. This is part two, like part one and part two.
00:14:39:15 – 00:14:39:39
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:14:39:40 – 00:14:50:29
Essa Hansen
Would be it would be difficult. And in my head, since I work on these kind of film feature films, I sort of had this, sense.
00:14:50:29 – 00:14:51:06
Essa Hansen
Of.
00:14:51:11 – 00:15:00:57
Essa Hansen
Like it would be prohibitive, just budget wise. And I worked on a lot of like, non franchise sci fi blockbuster films. And then a lot of.
00:15:00:57 – 00:15:02:35
Essa Hansen
Most of them have flopped.
00:15:02:40 – 00:15:12:16
Essa Hansen
And it’s just not like the audience isn’t there to pay off this gigantic budget of these VFX intensive films. But now my view has.
00:15:12:20 – 00:15:13:04
Essa Hansen
Shifted a little.
00:15:13:04 – 00:15:19:59
Essa Hansen
Bit and I can start to see ways to reframe the narrative.
00:15:19:59 – 00:15:21:37
Essa Hansen
Or.
00:15:21:41 – 00:15:23:10
Essa Hansen
You know, shift it so that it.
00:15:23:10 – 00:15:24:33
Essa Hansen
Is.
00:15:24:38 – 00:15:35:29
Essa Hansen
A budget achievable, or like in a limited series. So you can kind of yeah, there’s ways to skew the perspective and the structure and the shape of it so that.
00:15:35:38 – 00:15:39:26
Essa Hansen
You’re not leaning too heavy on the visual.
00:15:39:36 – 00:16:02:31
Agent Palmer
So is that a goal? Like even if it’s not your trilogy, like, I know you’ve been in sound for a very long time now. And, and and now you’ve created this body. Do you, do you, do you want to produce like like because I know, you know, there’s there’s always that. Well, everybody in Hollywood has their script, right?
00:16:02:31 – 00:16:28:06
Agent Palmer
And everybody. But that’s I don’t think everybody wants to produce. I don’t think everybody wants to act. I think people go after their things. But like, you’ve kind of dabbled in like a lot of different things, especially in this massive creative vortex you’ve been in. Is there a part of you that’s like producing seems fun or like, is there a part of you where you look at, like other pieces of the industry go like, that could be fun.
00:16:28:17 – 00:16:41:25
Essa Hansen
I think they’re all like, it could be fun and it could be scary. And it’s sort of equal measure because there’s just a consumer like, you see a lot of, like novels that have been adapted and it’s terrible.
00:16:41:32 – 00:16:43:56
Essa Hansen
It lets you down or like, you see all these.
00:16:43:56 – 00:16:45:04
Essa Hansen
Mixed cases and some.
00:16:45:04 – 00:16:46:04
Essa Hansen
Of them are good.
00:16:46:09 – 00:17:12:33
Essa Hansen
And you really can’t know. And if someone in the entertainment industry I know the vast number of people involved in getting something to the screen in any format. And so as a creator, you’re you’re giving it there’s this balance that you’re giving of creative control to people who are experts in whatever that one department is or whatever that one field is.
00:17:12:33 – 00:17:17:35
Essa Hansen
So, you know, you’re trusting them to do even better than you could imagine.
00:17:17:35 – 00:17:18:27
Essa Hansen
If you were.
00:17:18:27 – 00:17:24:47
Essa Hansen
Trying to control every aspect of, you know, how this thing got gets made.
00:17:24:57 – 00:17:25:59
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:17:26:04 – 00:17:43:23
Essa Hansen
So you, you trusting all these many, many people to bring their creative genius to in ways that were better than you could imagine. And so it’s hard, you know, some, some creators, I think, want to get in that control. Like, this would be great if I could.
00:17:43:34 – 00:17:43:48
Essa Hansen
Make.
00:17:43:48 – 00:17:55:21
Essa Hansen
Sure that everything was exactly the way that I wanted and exactly the way it is in my head. It’s like the way I envision it, but I think you absolutely have to give over that control to potential that you can’t even imagine.
00:17:55:26 – 00:18:28:34
Agent Palmer
Well, but so that it it begs to, I guess. Two comments really. One, you’ve already jumped off this massive cliff by starting the trilogy. You finished it. But like starting it was not that like there are never any guarantees of the creative process. And two during that process, three times no less, you’ve given over to editors and proofreaders and, you know, advanced copy whatever.
00:18:28:40 – 00:18:47:52
Agent Palmer
Like you’ve kind of, I guess you’ve learned to cede a little control away from yourself. So how scary can all those other things really be like? You just went through this like you jumped off the cliff and you gave the control to other people, and like.
00:18:47:57 – 00:18:56:42
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I think there’s there’s this myth in publishing, especially among know authors that like, if you go the traditional publishing route.
00:18:56:47 – 00:18:57:56
Essa Hansen
Like.
00:18:58:01 – 00:19:01:55
Essa Hansen
You’re going to get assigned an editor or they’re going to like their say is.
00:19:02:00 – 00:19:02:25
Essa Hansen
You know.
00:19:02:25 – 00:19:19:46
Essa Hansen
Final and they’re going to do whatever they want with your book, and everyone’s going to kind of shape it into what they want. But I had a ton of control editorially, like, and it was always the discussion, you know, if I didn’t look like a suggestion, I could, you know, discuss my case and where I was coming from and what I wanted.
00:19:19:46 – 00:19:41:23
Essa Hansen
And in the end, like all those edits were sort of what I wanted. I could reject them. I could go with them, I could I could solve something in a different way than was suggested. So in one avenue, I had a lot of control. And then in other avenues there’s absolutely zero control, like the cover, the marketing, the packaging, the way the books presented.
00:19:41:28 – 00:19:44:08
Essa Hansen
So it was sort of an I.
00:19:44:08 – 00:19:59:42
Essa Hansen
Imagine, like I have, I don’t know, but I imagine that in a media situation it would be the same. Or maybe and, you know, some people really want your involvement and are listening to you and, you know, get what you’re saying and get the book. And then others.
00:19:59:47 – 00:20:01:37
Essa Hansen
Maybe have their own ideas or.
00:20:01:49 – 00:20:05:18
Essa Hansen
Haven’t done their research, and you get a bit of a mix.
00:20:05:23 – 00:20:07:17
Essa Hansen
You have to prepare your heart for that.
00:20:07:22 – 00:20:40:07
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I just it it’s just hard for me to imagine you would be scared having put this like, you get to wake up every morning with three books on your shelf, like you’ve already gone to war. You’re a veteran now, right? Like, because that and it’s, you know, even even had you gone the independent route like you’re here now, like you’re on the other side, like it feels like you should wake up, especially after your months off, which I hope you actually take.
00:20:40:07 – 00:20:54:59
Agent Palmer
And and don’t ruin by getting a good idea in the middle of. But like, I hope you wake up and go like, oh, I have another idea. And now you’re like, I can do this. Like, there’s no. Yeah, I guess.
00:20:55:08 – 00:20:59:31
Essa Hansen
I’m I’m getting there. I hope I’m getting there. Well, ask me after these months.
00:20:59:31 – 00:21:00:21
Essa Hansen
Off, okay?
00:21:00:28 – 00:21:04:50
Essa Hansen
Because I feel like my brain is still coming back from war. Like I’m waiting.
00:21:04:54 – 00:21:07:15
Essa Hansen
Okay, to come back from work.
00:21:07:20 – 00:21:17:57
Essa Hansen
And I’ve had the next book idea, and it revised a bunch and, you know, make pitch documents and stuff this year. And now I’m at the point where I’ve got a drafted.
00:21:18:02 – 00:21:19:38
Essa Hansen
But it’s still like.
00:21:19:43 – 00:21:23:53
Essa Hansen
Waiting for that same energy to come back and that same.
00:21:23:58 – 00:21:24:51
Essa Hansen
You know.
00:21:24:56 – 00:21:34:47
Essa Hansen
Passion for the page to come back. And I realize how much like the last year, year and a half, my energy was just sheer.
00:21:34:47 – 00:21:42:25
Essa Hansen
Like fugue state how to get it done, just complete immersion in.
00:21:42:29 – 00:21:44:23
Essa Hansen
This world and my.
00:21:44:23 – 00:21:45:21
Essa Hansen
Deadlines.
00:21:45:26 – 00:21:45:47
Agent Palmer
Now.
00:21:45:47 – 00:21:46:21
Essa Hansen
And and.
00:21:46:21 – 00:21:48:30
Essa Hansen
The reader like.
00:21:48:34 – 00:21:50:37
Agent Palmer
Does a reader feedback kind of.
00:21:50:42 – 00:21:51:32
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:21:51:34 – 00:22:13:07
Essa Hansen
That was something that I hadn’t expected with, with a series and a trilogy, especially because there’s an end state, right? Yeah. That there’s like, again, it’s sort of this dual state. There’s this joy and seeing the readers reaction and they’re excited for it and it’s like hitting for them. But then that just feels more pressure to like the next book.
00:22:13:07 – 00:22:14:35
Essa Hansen
Has to be even.
00:22:14:35 – 00:22:25:26
Essa Hansen
Better for them, or the final one has to land the ending. Otherwise you’ve let them down and they’ve spent this time with you, and they put this energy in. So it was this extra pressure that was like, I love them, but.
00:22:25:26 – 00:22:29:06
Essa Hansen
Also I have to the is in like.
00:22:29:18 – 00:22:32:31
Essa Hansen
My court. I have to deliver on this or I’ll let them down.
00:22:32:31 – 00:23:00:52
Agent Palmer
Now I, I don’t I’m, I’m saying this for anybody listening. I’m saying this like you have the ability to ignore all the outside influences, but like, do you have an internal pressure to try and do like another one, like, is that or is it just all external and you can be like, I need my months. Like I need some time, I need a break or like, is there some internal drive or, like, I gotta keep.
00:23:00:52 – 00:23:01:59
Essa Hansen
Going.
00:23:02:04 – 00:23:03:26
Essa Hansen
You mean for each book in the trilogy?
00:23:03:26 – 00:23:08:54
Agent Palmer
No. I mean, now that that’s open now. Yeah. Like, for for whatever’s next.
00:23:08:59 – 00:23:29:19
Essa Hansen
Yeah. There’s there’s no external pressure. Really. It does feel like there’s a career pressure. So there’s like a certain momentum, you know, that my, my books are out there and people kind of know who I am. The readers are eager for something else. Like my core readers are looking forward to what’s next.
00:23:29:24 – 00:23:31:48
Essa Hansen
But publishing is really slow.
00:23:31:53 – 00:23:34:11
Essa Hansen
And so it feels like if I don’t.
00:23:34:11 – 00:23:35:38
Essa Hansen
Kind of.
00:23:35:43 – 00:23:45:49
Essa Hansen
Drag something soon enough and get it on submission, which is also slow, and then maybe gets picked up, maybe not, and then it’ll be a year or two before it actually hit shelves. It’s like a long.
00:23:45:49 – 00:23:46:41
Essa Hansen
Runway.
00:23:46:48 – 00:23:51:45
Essa Hansen
And it feels like at this stage, if I don’t start.
00:23:51:45 – 00:23:52:48
Essa Hansen
Soon and then that.
00:23:52:48 – 00:23:53:49
Essa Hansen
Momentum is just.
00:23:53:49 – 00:23:56:38
Essa Hansen
Gonna go somewhere and then once. But once the.
00:23:56:38 – 00:23:57:05
Essa Hansen
Momentum is.
00:23:57:05 – 00:23:58:27
Essa Hansen
Gone.
00:23:58:31 – 00:24:04:15
Essa Hansen
I think there’s pretty much no pressure, because if you restart, it’ll feel like a restart. You know, respects.
00:24:04:20 – 00:24:11:35
Essa Hansen
So so that in some ways I’m almost waiting for that might me to be slow enough to lose that momentum.
00:24:11:41 – 00:24:50:33
Agent Palmer
So so this is the real question. What have you learned? Like, I mean, first of all, from the outside and like you and I message it every few months like it’s not we don’t we don’t talk every day, but like there’s a part of me that goes, I really hope, I really hope that the next time it’s not book, book, book and there’s not an overlap and that there’s some time in between, or maybe there’s a book and then it’s sat on a shelf where the second one can be put together.
00:24:50:33 – 00:25:37:09
Agent Palmer
So that way when the first one publishes, the second one’s already done. And then it’s not like, because I, I think I messaged you like 2 or 3 times during the overlap of books two and three in various stages. And it just felt like even from our short interactions, like the world was falling apart just because, like, you were juggling like, and I’m not just like, even if you had quit your day job for this, it just felt like managing two novels at once, even even though they’re in the same unit, like it just felt like a lot like, would you, you know, sign a contract that said, like, I need like, no, not
00:25:37:09 – 00:25:42:32
Agent Palmer
not that again. Like, is there, you know, what have you learned?
00:25:42:37 – 00:25:45:09
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I’ve I’ve learned so much.
00:25:45:20 – 00:25:48:07
Essa Hansen
So yes, they there’s a lot.
00:25:48:07 – 00:25:49:00
Agent Palmer
That.
00:25:49:05 – 00:26:03:43
Essa Hansen
Going into publishing the first book, like I didn’t have the peer group to get the information that I needed and there wasn’t as many like, podcasts and other resources that really informed me about what I was in for. So it was a lot of learning as I went, okay.
00:26:03:48 – 00:26:04:31
Essa Hansen
And the books have.
00:26:04:44 – 00:26:10:36
Essa Hansen
The book schedules overlap. So the minute you turn something in for when you’re on to the next and it just never stops.
00:26:10:36 – 00:26:14:09
Essa Hansen
Ever until the trilogy is done.
00:26:14:14 – 00:26:26:27
Essa Hansen
And at the time, I didn’t realize that the extent to which I could ask for more time at various stages of editorial and production. So now I know, like I could ask.
00:26:26:35 – 00:26:30:39
Essa Hansen
For another month or two and like a lot of people do, and that’s the.
00:26:30:39 – 00:26:40:50
Essa Hansen
Normal for them. But it wasn’t for me. And since in the film industry I’m used to schedules being efficient and absolute and non-negotiable.
00:26:41:01 – 00:26:41:54
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:26:41:59 – 00:26:46:34
Essa Hansen
I kind of brought that mindset into publishing where I was like, yeah, the the entire team.
00:26:46:34 – 00:26:47:40
Essa Hansen
Is on.
00:26:47:40 – 00:26:52:14
Essa Hansen
A schedule that makes sense and is almost non-negotiable. When everyone’s going to do their.
00:26:52:14 – 00:26:53:45
Essa Hansen
Part, then you know, it’s.
00:26:53:45 – 00:26:54:36
Essa Hansen
Going to flow the same.
00:26:54:36 – 00:26:55:30
Essa Hansen
Way.
00:26:55:35 – 00:27:02:54
Essa Hansen
Which it doesn’t at least. And they expect you to kind of negotiate for your specific needs. So, yeah.
00:27:02:54 – 00:27:05:38
Essa Hansen
And in the book two, I was sort of juggling.
00:27:05:50 – 00:27:06:46
Essa Hansen
Book one stuff.
00:27:06:46 – 00:27:09:45
Essa Hansen
And book three stuff. I trying to chat, but two.
00:27:09:49 – 00:27:15:30
Essa Hansen
And I felt really bad responding to everyone who asked for interviews and things like that, that I just.
00:27:15:35 – 00:27:18:48
Essa Hansen
No capacity at all.
00:27:18:52 – 00:27:22:50
Essa Hansen
But my, my next project will be a standalone novel. So this.
00:27:22:50 – 00:27:23:32
Essa Hansen
One.
00:27:23:36 – 00:27:39:19
Essa Hansen
Not a series world. And I hear that a lot of authors burnout on series and trilogies like right out of the gate. Okay. And after that, you know, though, they’ll go to Standalones for a while or maybe duology and kind of pared back because it’s more intense than they thought.
00:27:39:28 – 00:28:05:36
Agent Palmer
Now, now, I know it’s always different for everyone, but it in in the peer group that you’ve kind of created throughout this process. Do people usually start with the trilogy like like I mean, I mean, going from trilogy to standalone makes sense because like a trilogy is a lot of work, but like, is the norm just a standalone.
00:28:05:41 – 00:28:16:16
Essa Hansen
So when I got my book deal, it felt like trilogies or longer series was sort of the norm. Like every every imprint seemed like they were acquiring longer series.
00:28:16:16 – 00:28:16:52
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:28:16:57 – 00:28:17:57
Essa Hansen
And now.
00:28:18:09 – 00:28:36:03
Essa Hansen
As I’ve been watching peers consummation and get feels, it feels like they’re pulling back a little bit to like dualities or standalones and kind of holding the cards little bit more. But definitely when I was on submission with my agent to these books, it was.
00:28:36:08 – 00:28:37:06
Essa Hansen
00:28:37:11 – 00:28:40:40
Essa Hansen
The trend was to write a standalone with series potential.
00:28:40:49 – 00:28:41:14
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:28:41:14 – 00:28:53:51
Essa Hansen
It’s a term which means that you you write one book and you know, it has a potential to be a series of any size. But it kind of stands on its own like nothing. Glass still kind of feels that way to me. The first.
00:28:53:51 – 00:28:55:18
Essa Hansen
Book.
00:28:55:23 – 00:29:17:10
Essa Hansen
Because that’s how I wrote it, and I went it sold. I kind of went back and added threads that were going to go into book two, because I knew would be a series, but as a whole, like the Arcs all kind of wrap up, in one little package, because, you know, you don’t want to spend extra time planning or writing subsequent books in a series that’s not going to sell.
00:29:17:15 – 00:29:21:06
Essa Hansen
Because if you have to shelve the first book, you’re shelving all the books and that’s wasted time.
00:29:21:11 – 00:29:21:29
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:29:21:29 – 00:29:40:08
Essa Hansen
So you kind of go on the mission with your standalone series potential, and you start working on the next thing, whether that’s another standalone series potential or standalone whatever you’re excited about. You start working on that and you kind of ignore the thing, submission and maybe it sells, maybe it doesn’t.
00:29:40:13 – 00:29:45:35
Essa Hansen
But the thing I didn’t expect is if you do sell the.
00:29:45:35 – 00:29:53:36
Essa Hansen
Standalone and it becomes a series and you get a series deal, which is amazing, then you suddenly have to rush and figure out what else.
00:29:53:40 – 00:29:57:11
Essa Hansen
Are you doing, what are the other books?
00:29:57:16 – 00:30:11:27
Essa Hansen
And you know, if you’re a solo writer or it’s like a big world and it takes you time to wrap your head around that, you can kind of feel like you’re just rushing to get up to speed with it. As you’re.
00:30:11:32 – 00:30:12:37
Essa Hansen
You know, that’s your own deadline.
00:30:12:37 – 00:30:14:54
Essa Hansen
As you’re demanded to create it.
00:30:14:59 – 00:30:45:48
Agent Palmer
Did you have a room in your house dedicated to post-it notes, like with the string and the crazy conspiracy theories to keep track of everything? Like how do I. We’re not spoiling anything, but like it does get a little bit complex. So I need I need to know like because as a reader, I was like. I slowed down in places because I was like, I gotta make sure I get this, but you’re the one creating this.
00:30:45:53 – 00:31:12:59
Agent Palmer
How did you like is there like an I know, like as we talked about it in that first episode when we talked about sound design, where you had like, you know, you’re working on Avengers and you have like millions of sounds that are, you know, was it was there a part of your brain that like, because you were handling in a different way, like all these different sound things that you were able to handle all these different plot threads, like, is there a connection there?
00:31:13:04 – 00:31:20:04
Essa Hansen
Like I do think I’m able to contain a lot in my head, just like abstract it without needing to write it down?
00:31:20:04 – 00:31:21:06
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:31:21:11 – 00:31:29:48
Essa Hansen
But as a writer, I quickly outpace, like any physical ability to get ideas down because it’s just too slow. It’s too slow for me.
00:31:29:52 – 00:31:31:25
Essa Hansen
So I use.
00:31:31:29 – 00:31:48:07
Essa Hansen
Digital like TextEdit, I use Scrivener, I use anywhere that’s like fast, and I can delete things if they’re done. And I can, you know, organize things the way that works for my brain with fonts and colors and, you know, broken out. However.
00:31:48:12 – 00:31:52:50
Essa Hansen
So for me, so yeah, it was.
00:31:52:55 – 00:32:03:44
Essa Hansen
Especially my outline documents for books two and three, especially three, just like I feel like if I look back at them with enough space.
00:32:03:57 – 00:32:04:33
Essa Hansen
Like in a few.
00:32:04:33 – 00:32:25:32
Essa Hansen
Months, like my, my physical visual shorthand for things would just make no sense to me. Like colors and symbols and little like, abbreviations and things, just to try to condense what was going on into a shape that I could see in one, like a one page, or like.
00:32:25:37 – 00:32:40:19
Agent Palmer
I just, I just assume it’s just kind of like your own personal, like high school yearbook where you open it up and you go like somebody wrote like three words that don’t mean anything. And you’re like, that must have meant something.
00:32:40:23 – 00:32:43:56
Essa Hansen
Yeah, it’s and I remember I can still.
00:32:43:56 – 00:32:51:34
Essa Hansen
Remember like, how kind of frenetic some of this, like, structural editing stuff was and some of the ideas that I wanted to pull.
00:32:51:34 – 00:32:52:18
Essa Hansen
Off.
00:32:52:23 – 00:33:08:22
Essa Hansen
But wasn’t really sure how, like not spoiling anything but structure wise. In the last third of the book, there’s some stuff that was like just the trade off of point of view and like information flow and all of that, and like Time Station and again.
00:33:08:27 – 00:33:09:55
Essa Hansen
Was really.
00:33:10:00 – 00:33:18:03
Essa Hansen
And like this the metaphysical mechanics and how that worked, it was really tricky to like this needs to make sense.
00:33:18:07 – 00:33:21:02
Essa Hansen
At least to be on some level.
00:33:21:07 – 00:33:22:14
Essa Hansen
In trying to get that.
00:33:22:19 – 00:33:24:06
Essa Hansen
Structure working.
00:33:24:11 – 00:33:33:07
Essa Hansen
It was a lot of, yeah, just in Scrivener visual shorthand stuff.
00:33:33:16 – 00:33:49:02
Agent Palmer
So, like, are you getting to unwind now little by little? Like, is there a weight lifted now that you quote unquote only have a day job? You know, like.
00:33:49:07 – 00:34:02:32
Essa Hansen
It’s coming in pieces? Like, I think we we want to believe that, you know, you finish something immense, and just immediately the weight is gone and you feel like a million bucks and you’re fine. You’re like.
00:34:02:38 – 00:34:02:59
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:34:03:03 – 00:34:04:47
Essa Hansen
High energy. You ready for the next thing?
00:34:04:47 – 00:34:05:25
Agent Palmer
Like, well.
00:34:05:30 – 00:34:07:52
Essa Hansen
Done. I know you’re excited and it’s awesome.
00:34:07:52 – 00:34:14:47
Agent Palmer
I mean, I, I will admit you do need some recovery time, but, like, there should be a weight lifted. I would hope.
00:34:14:51 – 00:34:18:19
Essa Hansen
Well, and in publishing, it’s weird because you are so.
00:34:18:24 – 00:34:18:55
Essa Hansen
Like.
00:34:19:00 – 00:34:42:55
Essa Hansen
Emotionally, you’re so far back about six months from where the public is. So like, see, I’ve turned in everything. Like the book is finished in my mind and I’ve turned in everything six months before it’s going to hit shelves and anyone’s going to react to that. Yeah. And like with an emotion that matches mine, like, you know, the relief, the excitement, like, I’m done, I finish this thing.
00:34:43:00 – 00:35:10:06
Essa Hansen
And then by the time six months or whatever reaches and then the fans are excited, you get photos this on the shelves, you know, whatever the hubbub is, you’ve emotionally kind of moved on from that visceral excitement feeling. And so you’re still excited, but it’s like there’s this displacement, okay, that every time a book has released has been really weird to navigate.
00:35:10:11 – 00:35:11:53
Essa Hansen
And maybe not all authors get this.
00:35:11:53 – 00:35:13:52
Essa Hansen
Maybe they get another surge of the same kind.
00:35:13:52 – 00:35:24:20
Essa Hansen
Of feelings, but there’s this displacement between, like when your work is done and where the work is received is a big time gap.
00:35:24:25 – 00:35:54:11
Agent Palmer
Now, as a as an independent creator of of of text blogs and an audio podcast and whatever it’s going to be in the future. I know for a fact I do not promote as much as I should. Okay. And I say that knowing that like we have mutual friends that are probably that probably do more than me, that probably still don’t do it as much as they should.
00:35:54:16 – 00:36:26:30
Agent Palmer
You have a publishing house behind you and the marketing team that’s pushing you along the way. So I want to ask you, did it feel like you pushed it enough? Did it feel like you pushed it too far? Did like. Because that’s the thing where like, coming from an independent, like, I know it’s not enough, but like, it’s enough for me or like, it’s it’s what I can do versus you’ve got, you know, professionals to help along the way.
00:36:26:35 – 00:36:27:03
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:36:27:18 – 00:36:50:40
Essa Hansen
So something that I, one of the things that I learned along the way that I didn’t really grasp entirely, when I got my book deal, was that, like, your the novel’s performance is pretty much decided, when it’s acquired, like, you decide the fate of your book that early in the early discussions before it’s acquired. They know the marketing spend.
00:36:50:40 – 00:37:01:55
Essa Hansen
They know, like, where are they going to place your book? They know how much they’re going to push it. So the fate of your book in your series is determined, like before you even kind of hit that runway.
00:37:02:00 – 00:37:02:43
Essa Hansen
Okay. Then it.
00:37:02:43 – 00:37:09:27
Essa Hansen
Feels, as the author, and the other thing that I didn’t understand.
00:37:09:31 – 00:37:10:28
Essa Hansen
Was.
00:37:10:32 – 00:37:32:05
Essa Hansen
That first year I felt like my effort had any kind of impact on sales or visibility. So I said yes to everything. Every virtual event, every podcast, every blog interview, every everything. Because I felt like I needed to try to give my book the best chance that it could and get it into me hands as I could.
00:37:32:18 – 00:37:46:03
Essa Hansen
Yeah. So I was expanding all of my effort, just trying to do everything, even if it was uncomfortable for me, even if I knew I wasn’t great at it. I was trying to do everything, and I burnt out to a crisp really fast.
00:37:46:18 – 00:37:48:13
Essa Hansen
And then I realized that none.
00:37:48:13 – 00:37:56:26
Essa Hansen
Of it really matters. Like it doesn’t move the needle very much and you should do it if you love it and have fun, you know, talking about the things and meeting people.
00:37:56:26 – 00:38:08:07
Agent Palmer
And that’s what that’s what happens after the third book for you. Now you can just chill out and talk to people, and you don’t have another book or two to write.
00:38:08:12 – 00:38:09:21
Essa Hansen
Yeah. Well, like.
00:38:09:33 – 00:38:24:26
Essa Hansen
So after that, around the first book release said yes to everything and burnt out and then I just for my own health, I had to say, start saying no to any of those kinds of quests. And then I was just so intensely engrossed in.
00:38:24:30 – 00:38:25:01
Essa Hansen
Finishing.
00:38:25:01 – 00:38:30:30
Essa Hansen
Book two and three to a degree, that I felt like my fans would be happy.
00:38:30:30 – 00:38:31:13
Essa Hansen
With my.
00:38:31:13 – 00:38:44:08
Essa Hansen
Effort in then I had nothing that I could regret in when I put into them under the duress that I was in. And, you know, I was just completely focused on that. And then that’s done, and I thought I should.
00:38:44:08 – 00:38:48:16
Essa Hansen
See if doing events again is.
00:38:48:16 – 00:38:48:54
Essa Hansen
Comfortable for.
00:38:48:54 – 00:38:51:20
Essa Hansen
Me or not.
00:38:51:25 – 00:38:55:54
Essa Hansen
And if that was a factor of burnout or if it’s just like me being.
00:38:55:59 – 00:38:56:15
Essa Hansen
Sort.
00:38:56:15 – 00:38:58:25
Essa Hansen
Of an anxious, inarticulate person.
00:38:58:30 – 00:39:19:55
Agent Palmer
Well, how did how did events change for you, by the way? Because the first when you put out the first book, people maybe read part of it, maybe read all of it, but they’re just getting to know you when you do the second and when you’re doing promotion for the second and the third book in this trilogy, people know you now, like even if they don’t know you, they know your writing.
00:39:19:55 – 00:39:37:39
Agent Palmer
They know your style. They they’ve gotten a you’ve given them three pieces of you. Right? So like, does it was the fan interaction like that much different from like first book to like I’ve got a trilogy now.
00:39:37:43 – 00:39:39:55
Essa Hansen
Well so and I wonder.
00:39:39:55 – 00:40:01:26
Essa Hansen
If that would have changed my perception of that would have changed if I had been keeping up the same level of like public fan interaction. Because with the first, with a debut novel, no one really knows you. Like maybe some people at an see a virtual event have read the book, most probably haven’t, but they’re interested. So you get sort of this.
00:40:01:31 – 00:40:02:05
Essa Hansen
You know, people are.
00:40:02:05 – 00:40:11:07
Essa Hansen
Interested, but no one knows the questions to ask because they haven’t read it. No one’s really engaging with the content. You just kind of feel like you’re killing yourself.
00:40:11:12 – 00:40:14:36
Essa Hansen
It. And then with.
00:40:14:41 – 00:40:25:05
Essa Hansen
The two and three, like the publisher support drops off almost completely and they’re sort of are banking on the first book carrying and the rest of.
00:40:25:05 – 00:40:28:22
Essa Hansen
Them. Okay. And.
00:40:28:22 – 00:40:32:15
Essa Hansen
At that point I was too burnt out to like, really push them myself.
00:40:32:20 – 00:40:33:09
Essa Hansen
00:40:33:14 – 00:40:40:54
Essa Hansen
But I realized I had a little core of fans that were, you know, spreading word of mouth and telling people and.
00:40:40:59 – 00:40:41:31
Agent Palmer
There.
00:40:41:35 – 00:40:44:28
Essa Hansen
Was bloggers and interviewers and readers became really precious.
00:40:44:28 – 00:40:45:21
Essa Hansen
To me.
00:40:45:26 – 00:40:48:36
Essa Hansen
And that, you know, a lot of them were friends with each other.
00:40:48:36 – 00:40:50:00
Essa Hansen
And I kind of,
00:40:50:04 – 00:41:03:35
Essa Hansen
Talking to one another and excited about what was coming next. And that uplifted me through a lot of the dark times. Just knowing that there were readers there that we knew were excited and were getting.
00:41:03:35 – 00:41:04:51
Essa Hansen
Other people.
00:41:04:51 – 00:41:10:15
Essa Hansen
Reading the first book in the second and excited for the third. And that momentum meant a lot.
00:41:10:20 – 00:41:42:31
Agent Palmer
So I know we talked a little bit about maybe changing mediums, but, for now, you have a day job, you’re going to take some time off, you’re a published author times three. Like, is there a part of you, regarding, despite everything else that wants to be like, I think I just want to be a writer now, like, is that is that, you know, you’ve done it like, I mean, which means which puts you ahead of a lot of people that say that.
00:41:42:31 – 00:41:54:14
Agent Palmer
Just sit back and go, I want to be a writer one day. But, like, is that a thing where you could see yourself just churning out one book every few years? Like, is that a thing you want to do or like, do you want to?
00:41:54:16 – 00:41:58:18
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I think I could. I definitely realized with.
00:41:58:22 – 00:41:58:44
Essa Hansen
And this is.
00:41:58:44 – 00:42:03:01
Essa Hansen
Something I probably should have known ahead of time, like many things, but I didn’t.
00:42:03:01 – 00:42:04:19
Essa Hansen
Realize the.
00:42:04:20 – 00:42:17:51
Essa Hansen
Exact workload in like terms of hours of the day that a lot of the editorial and drafting would take me. But doing 50 hour a day job and squeezing in writing, which is about the same.
00:42:18:04 – 00:42:18:20
Essa Hansen
Amount.
00:42:18:20 – 00:42:20:30
Essa Hansen
Of effort for me into.
00:42:20:35 – 00:42:26:58
Essa Hansen
Each week, was not sustainable.
00:42:27:03 – 00:42:47:10
Essa Hansen
So I had to take some time off my day job just so that I wouldn’t die trying to finish third book. And now I’m like, well, how? How do I balance these two things? Because writing is really dear to my heart and I would, you know, sort of want to do that until the end of time, reading world and stories and characters.
00:42:47:15 – 00:43:03:24
Essa Hansen
And my day job is really fun. Really intense also. So I need that spaced out a little more. But schedules in the film industry can move around in post-production, especially even in courses subject to moving.
00:43:03:24 – 00:43:05:00
Essa Hansen
And yeah, I mean.
00:43:05:00 – 00:43:13:19
Essa Hansen
Production schedules and release date and all of that. So things that really set in stone. So I can’t exactly schedule.
00:43:13:23 – 00:43:14:03
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:43:14:08 – 00:43:26:00
Essa Hansen
Publishing time around that. And if I get a book deal that it’s flexible to some degree. But there’s also a production schedule and rhythm that can’t move.
00:43:26:15 – 00:43:27:16
Essa Hansen
Yeah.
00:43:27:21 – 00:43:38:00
Essa Hansen
Without moving the release date a bunch. And that just shuffles everybody around. So and sort of subject to these various rhythms falling where they may.
00:43:38:05 – 00:43:38:33
Essa Hansen
And having.
00:43:38:34 – 00:43:43:11
Essa Hansen
To deal with it. But, I think I have more tools now.
00:43:43:20 – 00:43:43:43
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:43:43:45 – 00:43:51:29
Agent Palmer
Well, you’re probably better prepared now as well. Yeah. Well, at least a little bit better prepared.
00:43:51:34 – 00:43:57:24
Essa Hansen
Yeah. And I know that ask for the time that I need and be, you know, sort of upfront about.
00:43:57:28 – 00:43:58:45
Essa Hansen
And just.
00:43:58:49 – 00:44:06:30
Essa Hansen
Hopefully having honest conversations about what’s needed, when and how much flexibility there is and how we can all meet each other’s needs.
00:44:06:30 – 00:44:07:26
Essa Hansen
And rhythms.
00:44:07:31 – 00:44:33:02
Agent Palmer
Is there, change in your, I guess I want to say, creative process that you could see in the future that would allow for a little bit more balance because like, I, you know, just on what you said in the last 15 minutes, it feels like even though you took time off your day job, there was no balance in your life when you were finishing book three.
00:44:33:07 – 00:44:47:21
Agent Palmer
So, like, is there a way that you as a human can find a way to, balance a little bit, as you move forward in whatever capacity the combinations end up?
00:44:47:26 – 00:44:48:22
Essa Hansen
00:44:48:27 – 00:45:08:31
Essa Hansen
Well, if they double up, there just isn’t a lot of wiggle room. Like I would wake up as early as I could like 6 or 7 in the morning and I get a couple hours for, I start work at nine and then and off work at eight. So then it’s from eight until I pass out at midnight or one.
00:45:08:36 – 00:45:09:30
Essa Hansen
Less my schedule.
00:45:09:42 – 00:45:11:07
Essa Hansen
And then I would get a few hours of.
00:45:11:07 – 00:45:12:17
Essa Hansen
Sleep. You have to.
00:45:12:17 – 00:45:25:18
Essa Hansen
Wake up and do it again. So that was my schedule for many months. Just trying to do both. But what I realized amidst that was that, and I kind of had a sense of this before, but.
00:45:25:23 – 00:45:27:22
Essa Hansen
That I was able to maintain that.
00:45:27:27 – 00:45:52:02
Essa Hansen
Sort of rigor, prove that in my brain. The because my day job is very creative and very technical. So I’m doing a lot of creative work, a lot of creative sound choices in sort of painting with sound and thinking about storytelling and environment and movement and shape and all these things that I also cover in my writing, because it’s very immersive and sensory.
00:45:52:07 – 00:45:54:34
Essa Hansen
But the two mediums are different gears in my brain.
00:45:54:39 – 00:45:55:16
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:45:55:21 – 00:46:13:33
Essa Hansen
So I think if they had been the same, I wouldn’t be able to keep up like 17 hours of work every day for months. But because it was a at least a little bit of a gear shift in terms of how I express those same modes of thinking, that helped me.
00:46:13:38 – 00:46:14:18
Essa Hansen
You know.
00:46:14:23 – 00:46:15:54
Essa Hansen
Switch gears after ten hours.
00:46:15:54 – 00:46:17:31
Essa Hansen
Of one creative mode.
00:46:17:31 – 00:46:20:33
Essa Hansen
Into a different creative mode and still get something done.
00:46:20:33 – 00:46:49:24
Agent Palmer
I mean, I think it’s it’s very much a, like a testament to your internal creative character that those two things, while similar and from like where I sit, the same, you know, world building with sound and world building and text from this, from this seat seemed like it’s not like you’re going to a drudgery like data entry job, and you’re coming home and you’re writing prose.
00:46:49:28 – 00:47:10:22
Agent Palmer
Like, to me, I’m like, seems like an overlap, but like, it’s a testament to your internal creative character that you can say that they’re fulfilling in different ways. So you can do still, you know, as a fan, I don’t want you to work 17 hours on the next one, you know, maybe cut it back to 15.
00:47:10:22 – 00:47:13:47
Essa Hansen
Yeah, yeah. It’s great. And like.
00:47:13:52 – 00:47:23:08
Essa Hansen
Still sci fi fantasy in my day job. So it feels like I, I like, pick up my little briefcase and I and exit one world and enter another world.
00:47:23:13 – 00:47:28:52
Essa Hansen
And in there for a long time in the name. Pick it up. And I exiting the internal world.
00:47:28:57 – 00:47:45:01
Agent Palmer
Well it’s I, I’m happy to know that around the time that this finally releases to the world, you’ll be, I don’t know, getting ready to what’s the what’s the break you’re going to go sip, sip drinks on a beach?
00:47:45:06 – 00:47:46:05
Essa Hansen
I’m just trying to.
00:47:46:05 – 00:47:46:51
Essa Hansen
Be.
00:47:46:55 – 00:47:58:42
Essa Hansen
Gentle with myself right now. I’m getting back out in nature a lot, which really fulfills me. Like going to the beach, taking hikes, looking around, just absorbing. And that’s where I get my ideas to.
00:47:58:51 – 00:48:00:34
Essa Hansen
Okay.
00:48:00:39 – 00:48:15:32
Essa Hansen
So getting out in nature more, just taking it easy. And I feel like it’s going to be a slow process, but I’m sort of retraining my brain that everything is actually okay. Like, you can get out of fight or flight.
00:48:15:36 – 00:48:20:44
Essa Hansen
Like you’re not going to get attacked by something today. Like it’s okay and.
00:48:20:56 – 00:48:25:51
Essa Hansen
That doesn’t happen overnight. It’s going to take time. But I’m slowly trying to ease back.
00:48:25:51 – 00:48:30:55
Essa Hansen
Into not a routine, but just a sense.
00:48:30:55 – 00:48:35:29
Essa Hansen
That things can flow. Like there’s no urgency.
00:48:35:34 – 00:48:35:43
Essa Hansen
Because.
00:48:35:43 – 00:48:51:16
Essa Hansen
It’s been so long with this urgency, just constantly, whether it’s, you know, deja wake or things on the calendar or events or deadlines are like, you always have 50 clocks going in your head and your brain’s.
00:48:51:16 – 00:48:53:10
Essa Hansen
Always kind of.
00:48:53:15 – 00:48:56:48
Essa Hansen
Looking forward to the next thing. I’m trying to unhook from that.
00:48:56:52 – 00:48:58:05
Essa Hansen
And.
00:48:58:10 – 00:49:10:16
Essa Hansen
Just foster a sense of ease for a while until I can recreate the routine, like the writing routines I want and the creativity I want the right times to sort of get back to their normal.
00:49:10:16 – 00:49:22:41
Essa Hansen
That I remember from before the books.
00:49:22:46 – 00:49:46:09
Agent Palmer
Given the conversation you have just heard, and many of the others that have been contained within the episodes of this podcast, I am led to the conclusion that essay, and my own lack and yearning for balance is not only common for many, but perhaps comes with the territory of being in a creative space. As I’m speaking to you now, I hope that essay is taking her break, or at least is soon to do so.
00:49:46:14 – 00:50:09:25
Agent Palmer
Even though we spoke about what would happen when that break happens, I’m still not sure there will be progress made towards that next thing. I just hope that rest is also happening. I need to do the same myself, which is why I’m going to keep this short and sweet. Be kind to the creators whose work you enjoy, especially independent creators or those who are not doing it full time.
00:50:09:30 – 00:50:35:56
Agent Palmer
Balance doesn’t come easy to the creative mind. Neither does rest, for that matter. But as John Hammond once said, creation is an act of sheer will. And like Hammond’s creation in Jurassic Park, that Will is usually spared no expense. The break creators seek is often from their own mind to have it turned off for a bit. It’s not nearly as easy as you might think, so just be kind.
00:50:36:01 – 00:50:55:10
Agent Palmer
Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 112. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact my guest as a Hansen and myself in the show notes. There you can find more information about my guests work at S.A. Hansen.com.
00:50:55:10 – 00:51:14:30
Agent Palmer
That’s SSA, a hand Centcom. The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent Palmer, dot com.
00:51:14:35 – 00:51:28:07
Unknown
You.
00:51:28:12 – 00:51:46:08
Unknown
See?
00:51:46:12 – 00:51:55:43
Unknown
Me?
00:51:55:48 – 00:51:58:21
Agent Palmer
All right. Do you have one final question for me?
00:51:58:26 – 00:52:02:14
Essa Hansen
Since we have talked multiple times across.
00:52:02:14 – 00:52:07:21
Essa Hansen
The years, what is your experience.
00:52:07:25 – 00:52:07:51
Essa Hansen
Talking to.
00:52:07:51 – 00:52:27:00
Essa Hansen
Someone with these interview intervals, interviewing them, and sometimes about the same topics and about new topics like what is that for you as a podcaster? Getting these these check ins, these snapshots, these deep dives across the years?
00:52:27:00 – 00:52:53:20
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s I so I think part of it’s cheating because I do message you in between. So it’s not like I’m not coming at this stuff with well, since the last time she was on, I read both books like it’s been a little bit more than that. But like, I’m within my own circle. This is my function, okay?
00:52:53:20 – 00:53:31:24
Agent Palmer
Like, I’m the one who calls x, Y, and z friends that no one else talks to because they don’t call anybody. But I call enough that they pick up for me. Right? So I get to know, I get to check in, and then when I talk to everybody else, I’m like, oh, by the way. So it’s I was, you know, doing great, you know, so that it’s a role I fill in my non creative space and I, I just like talking to people like I, I, you know, you and I could do this for a week and probably have a different converse.
00:53:31:24 – 00:54:12:31
Agent Palmer
Even if I started with the same question every time, I think you and I could have a different conversation each time. And I, I think that in a day and age where let’s, you know, my podcast is not nearly what it could be for two reasons. One, probably not short enough, and two, I don’t want it to be short enough like I want to raise, the level of, attention span in the world.
00:54:12:31 – 00:54:36:57
Agent Palmer
And so there’s a part of that, I, I think that the interesting thing about doing this so infrequently and not being like, well, you can come back next year, like you come back annually, like annually. We can do this. I, I think it’s a testament to how life does and doesn’t change in the span of those things.
00:54:37:02 – 00:55:01:46
Agent Palmer
So like between the first and the second one that we had was about a year, and we talked about your day job in the first one and then the second one, you had just put out the first book, and during the first one we talked a little bit about you writing the first book, and it was just that little snapshot.
00:55:01:51 – 00:55:46:09
Agent Palmer
Now we get to talk about it’s three years now. I think almost to the day that we’re recording, and it’s two you’ve, you’ve done two more books, but you’ve continued this day job and you’ve, you know, just kind of, you know, we’ve been we’ve talked about all the things you’ve learned through the processes, but these are things that if I don’t get out of you and I and I, I mean this a little bit selfishly, if I don’t get them out of you and learned them through your experience by talking to you and share them with my audience, by having you tell me, then there’s going to be potential authors out there that are
00:55:46:09 – 00:56:14:15
Agent Palmer
going to be like, you know, well, it is possible to work 17 hours in a day job in a book, but no one’s suggesting you do that. And it’s important for somebody to say that it’s important, you know. Is it is it wrong? No, no, I’m not, I’m not I’m not going to say that the books were wonderful, that it clearly worked out on some level.
00:56:14:30 – 00:56:48:38
Agent Palmer
But you also need months now to recuperate. So there’s a there’s a give and take in that. But that needs to be stated. I, you know, because there are there are quiet people in the back that may be read your bio and go, okay, full time job wrote a trilogy. Anybody can do that. That seems like logical and without conversations like this in any capacity, at any stage along the way, no one’s going to tell that person, hey, hey, hey, maybe take some time.
00:56:48:38 – 00:56:50:56
Agent Palmer
Like maybe, maybe pump the brakes. Maybe it’s.
00:56:50:56 – 00:56:51:20
Essa Hansen
Hard.
00:56:51:20 – 00:57:09:37
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And and I this is a theme. And this is the reason I love doing this is because I get to talk to different people in different places that are creating very different things. And the theme that comes up a little bit more often than it should.
00:57:09:42 – 00:57:42:37
Agent Palmer
Is it’s never as easy as it looks like. Yeah, there’s a, there’s a, there’s a generation or generations of people out there that think all I do is hit record, talk to you, hit process and hit publish, which is not the way this works at all. And there’s they’re the same people that thank you sit down type your 300 pages, send it to a publisher, and it goes publish and goes out there.
00:57:42:37 – 00:58:06:00
Agent Palmer
And people need to know that you and I are doing this in our spare time, that I take time to. Well, I read your books, but I also take time to do a little research. And, you know, we do have a bit of a relationship outside of this, but then this gets edited and you have a day job and, you know, like there are other things people.
00:58:06:05 – 00:58:26:53
Agent Palmer
It’s not it’s always glossed over. Everybody’s like, hey, I did this thing and nobody’s nobody’s out there yelling from the rafters, which is what I feel like I’m doing, going like, hey, kid, this is something you can do. But maybe learn that it’s not easy.
00:58:26:58 – 00:58:48:22
Essa Hansen
Yeah. And there’s a degree to which, like, especially in social media, you can yell about the successes, you can yell about the exciting things, you can yell about everything positive going on with your life, your career, your process. But you can’t always publicly. You don’t want to be complaining all the time. You don’t want to be down. You don’t be negative.
00:58:48:22 – 00:58:54:17
Essa Hansen
You don’t want to. There’s things you can’t talk about that you’re unhappy about. You know, you. That’s for the group chat.
00:58:54:21 – 00:58:54:49
Agent Palmer
And.
00:58:54:52 – 00:58:55:33
Essa Hansen
I’m fine.
00:58:55:39 – 00:59:08:16
Agent Palmer
But I’m glad that you myself, I’m glad we have group chats because the. Yeah, that’s the other side of the coin is you have to let that how you keep.
00:59:08:21 – 00:59:24:36
Essa Hansen
Yeah. You have to let that out. And you have to me, I think there’s a degree to which it’s really valuable to be honest, for other people like me back in 2019, 2020, there are so many things that I would have loved to have known ahead of time, to have been aware.
00:59:24:36 – 00:59:26:17
Essa Hansen
Of, to have one of.
00:59:26:22 – 00:59:48:42
Essa Hansen
Like the peer groups we talked about that I didn’t have, you know, the resources, the conversations, those things would have prepared me a lot better and I maybe could have managed my time better, or at least like psychologically, emotionally, been able to, pass and navigate some of these things better.
00:59:48:43 – 01:00:05:53
Agent Palmer
But now you’re you’re talking about them on this. I’m sure you’ve talked about them elsewhere. Hopefully people are listening. Like, not that people are listening, but hopefully they’re taking it to heart. Like hopefully somebody who wants to write a book or start working on a movie, you know?
01:00:05:57 – 01:00:12:48
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I take, I take what I went through and I now and the, the white Knight, the paladin, the like anyone.
01:00:12:53 – 01:00:13:41
Essa Hansen
Anyone newer who.
01:00:13:41 – 01:00:23:33
Essa Hansen
Wants some knowledge, I’ll point them the right way or tell them why. Like I’m here for those people who are me. In the past, when I felt like I needed that and didn’t have it. But now I know.
01:00:23:38 – 01:01:03:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, since we last talked, I helped produce a movie, and I did it from the hours of 9 p.m. because I worked with someone, from 9 to 11 nightly. It felt like, or sometimes till midnight or one if we were on a roll and, it’s a project that it’s one of those projects that had we known what we were getting into beforehand, we probably never would have wondered, which is like there is an amount to where you just have to jump.
01:01:03:57 – 01:01:38:02
Agent Palmer
But there is a thing where I’m like, maybe people shouldn’t do like a third gig, so to speak. As a full length feature documentary, remotely like, yeah, you know, it worked out for me, Chris, but I don’t know if that’s the thing everybody should do. But I just I like the idea that you’re out there, and I then that I can give you a platform to kind of help future people who want to create things.
01:01:38:07 – 01:01:41:00
Essa Hansen
Yeah. And multi creatives that are looking to.
01:01:41:05 – 01:01:43:35
Essa Hansen
Like the people that are two creatives.
01:01:43:39 – 01:01:59:24
Essa Hansen
Like we were saying at the beginning, like too many ideas like you can’t stop the creative brain. Like you always have something pushing it you that’s exciting. They want you to follow it. You have all these threads and following them is amazing. But at some point, if all of them start to.
01:01:59:24 – 01:02:03:09
Essa Hansen
Materialize too frequently, you have to.
01:02:03:14 – 01:02:05:07
Essa Hansen
You know, pick your pick your battles.
01:02:05:11 – 01:02:05:38
Essa Hansen
And.
01:02:05:45 – 01:02:06:17
Agent Palmer
And you got to go.
01:02:06:17 – 01:02:07:24
Essa Hansen
For.
01:02:07:29 – 01:02:08:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And I got to get outside.
01:02:08:52 – 01:02:13:27
Essa Hansen
You got to take a walk. Now that’s that’s when I get.
01:02:13:34 – 01:02:16:26
Essa Hansen
That’s when I get all the ideas kind of.
01:02:16:30 – 01:02:20:26
Essa Hansen
Take a walk, drive my car, take a shower. Any time.
01:02:20:26 – 01:02:22:09
Essa Hansen
That it’s harder to write.
01:02:22:14 – 01:02:24:45
Essa Hansen
Things down is when the ideas come to me.
01:02:24:50 – 01:02:30:58
Agent Palmer
That I mean, you’re not wrong, but I do try and actively shut it off when that happens.
01:02:31:02 – 01:02:43:57
Essa Hansen
That’s why I listen to podcasts or music or something that can preoccupy that bit, especially podcasts or like audiobooks, nonfiction, where they can preoccupy that part of my brain that wants to chase after.
01:02:44:02 – 01:02:44:39
Essa Hansen
Little story.
01:02:44:39 – 01:02:45:33
Essa Hansen
Rabbit’s idea.
01:02:45:33 – 01:02:48:29
Essa Hansen
Rabbits and helps.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).