For episode three of The Palmer Files, guest Dan Lizette of The Podcast Digest joins me to talk about podcasting, which we now do together, though we arrived by separate paths.
It is all things podcasting, which mean we discuss our respective podcast histories, podcasting’s present, and future, and share some stories along the way.
Throughout the conversation we cover:
- Origins of The Podcast Digest
- The Palmer Files origins in The Proxycast
- Podcast Range: General Interest vs. Niche
- Shouting back from the void.
- Creators and Ownership
- Blog vs. Podcast
- The Evolution of The Podcast Digest
- Episode Recording Preparation
- Being Ed McMahon
- Podcasting Barriers
- Community
- Podcasting begets Podcasting
- Consistency, The Grind, The Dip
- The Future
- Search
- Money
- Commercialization
Lastly, as a reminder, this episode was conceived before I was a co-host of The Podcast Digest and recorded after I had said yes, but before any episodes with me had been released. I’m not sure if that’s super important, but I wanted to put it out there.
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
The Dip Book Review / The Dip Podcast Discussion
Phoebe Judge on The Podcast Digest Episode 27
Roman Mars on The Podcast Digest Episode 77
Agent Palmer’s First Appearance on The Podcast Digest Episode 94.
A Companion to My Declassified Top Secret Podcast Appearance on The Podcast Digest
You can also hear more Palmer in the meantime on Our Liner Notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and as mentioned on this show as co-host of The Podcast Digest with Dan Lizette.
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:32 – 00:00:24:59
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. Battle of Britain by Len Deighton is a very brilliant history book. I recommend Amazon Prime’s Undone and in the last episode I talked about blogging with Kristin Maier. This is The Palmer Files episode three with guest Dan Lizette of the Podcast Digest, where we talk about all things podcasting. Our origins, growth, evolution, and the future might get monetized in corporate.
00:00:25:10 – 00:00:50:03
Agent Palmer
Let’s do the show.
00:00:50:08 – 00:01:19:16
Agent Palmer
Hello there and welcome. This is the Palmer Files, and I’m still your host, Jason Stershic, also known online as Agent Palmer. And this is my podcast. Before we get into this week’s guest introduction and the conversation, let me say that this episode marks the end of the pre-launch recorded material, which means that everything you hear after this episode was recorded after the show launched, and conversely, everything you’ve listened to, including this episode, was recorded before the show launched.
00:01:19:21 – 00:01:38:54
Agent Palmer
That may not seem like a big deal, but I had to sit on the idea of launching this show and these three episodes for a while as I prepared them. So I’m excited to have them all out, as that was the plan going forward. The plan is a little less structured, but I do have episode four recorded, and five and six are in the process of scheduling.
00:01:38:59 – 00:02:07:26
Agent Palmer
But enough about the future. Let’s talk about the present episode three, where I get to discuss podcasting with Dan Lizette, host of the podcast Digest. Why Dan was that? Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but the topic is podcasts. And while there are great many podcasters out there, Dan is not only someone I’ve known in the podcast space for years, but he is the host of the Podcast Digest, which is a podcast about podcasts.
00:02:07:31 – 00:02:30:56
Agent Palmer
We do discuss his show. In fact, it’s one of the first things I ask him about. And through the show we talk about the evolution of his show, which now includes myself as co-host. In the interest of full disclosure, I was going to ask Dan to be the podcast guest for this episode three when I called to discuss it with him and he asked me to be his co-host on the podcast digest relaunch.
00:02:31:01 – 00:02:50:40
Agent Palmer
Since this all happened before I even had a chance to launch episode one of my show. I spent a lot of time on the phone with Dan trying to say no, but it’s been 3 or 4 episodes into that new dynamic for the podcast digest, and I’m still honored he thought of asking me, and I’m happy I did say yes, as we’ll discuss.
00:02:50:51 – 00:03:10:40
Agent Palmer
Dan has been a supporter of the Palmer Files, even before there was a Palmer Files, when it was just a proxy cast. So Dan, who runs a podcast about podcasts and who not only enjoys keeping tabs on the industry like no other, but has interviewed a good portion of the industry, some independent mainstays, and some before they were famous.
00:03:10:52 – 00:03:36:03
Agent Palmer
We get to talk podcasting on this week’s Palmer File. Now, before we get into it, you can follow Dan at Pod Digest. That’s Pod Digest. You can listen to the podcast digest immense catalog. And the more recent episodes with myself on the website, the podcast digest.com, or wherever you’re listening to my voice right now. As always, tweet along with the show at the Palmer Files.
00:03:36:03 – 00:03:52:49
Agent Palmer
Tweet me at Agent Palmer or email the show The Palmer Files at gmail.com. So here we go.
00:03:52:53 – 00:04:00:16
Agent Palmer
Dan, you have a podcast about podcasts. So let’s just start with why?
00:04:00:21 – 00:04:33:03
Dan Lizette
Why? First, Palmer, I need to bring back the podcast about podcast. But I have had for a very long period of time the podcast about podcasts. Why is this what you’re doing and what most people, especially in the independent scene, do, is they start a podcast about something that they’re super interested in, super passionate about, and that so that when they’re doing this, they’re obviously, interested, intrigued, connected, and want to keep doing it.
00:04:33:03 – 00:04:51:43
Dan Lizette
So I have been a podcast listener and fan for geez, I am one of those folks that had an iPod and would sync to my computer to connect and download podcast before taking the iPod out with me to school.
00:04:51:43 – 00:05:09:57
Agent Palmer
And what what I mean, okay, so I know for a fact that my first podcast episode was an episode of Nerdist with, Alton Brown, which I think was in like the two 50s or one 50s or something like that.
00:05:10:02 – 00:05:12:15
Dan Lizette
Yeah, I couldn’t tell you the first episode, but.
00:05:12:15 – 00:05:14:14
Agent Palmer
The show was like the early show because, I mean.
00:05:14:14 – 00:05:44:44
Dan Lizette
Yeah, some of the earliest shows were all tech oriented. I am an absolute technology freak, consumer tech, guru, passionate about all things technology. And so I remember the Cell Phone Junkie was one of my first podcasts, and I actually did speak to the host to that on my show, twit. The Twit network is, one of the first areas I landed, and they were super intriguing because they did something and they’re still doing it, which is video podcasts, which is very unique.
00:05:44:44 – 00:06:12:33
Dan Lizette
And, so I sort of started out there and it wasn’t long until I found five by five. Shortly thereafter, another tech based podcast network. And sort of that started things for me. And when you look at the world of podcasting and podcasting history, a lot of the earliest, earliest shows were indeed tech based. Not every one of them, of course, but many of the volume that started the world of podcasting were in the category of technology.
00:06:12:33 – 00:06:24:12
Dan Lizette
And that’s because you kind of had to be tech savvy to sort of even know how to make one, two, how to release one, how to get one, even as a listener, way back in, say, 2004, 2005.
00:06:24:12 – 00:06:30:38
Agent Palmer
It’s still arguable, you might say, in order to do a good one, I’d still argue you need some tech savvy.
00:06:30:43 – 00:06:56:09
Dan Lizette
Sure, sure. On the production and unfortunately nowadays, as a listener, it’s much, much, much, much easier than it was when I started listening. So that’s sort of where things started for me was it was something that I was super passionate, interested about. And so, to kind of address your initial question of way back, I believe it was 2014, I moved up to the state of Pennsylvania in 2013 from where I’m from in Virginia.
00:06:56:09 – 00:07:16:30
Dan Lizette
And, so we didn’t really know anybody, my wife and kids and I. And so we had a lot of time at home, and I was listening to a lot of podcasts, and I just like lightning struck me at one point and said, you know what? I might start a hobby and I might start podcasting. Now. I come from a background as a mobile DJ.
00:07:16:30 – 00:07:35:53
Dan Lizette
It’s been 20 years. I’ve been a mobile deejay, so I was familiar with a microphone, with a mixer, and again, my background in technology and I said, you know, I think I can put these pieces together. And I thought, well, what would I do? It literally was I might start a podcast was thought one and thought two was what would it be about?
00:07:35:57 – 00:07:53:50
Dan Lizette
And the first thing that kind of kept jumping into my mind as I was going through was it would have to be about podcasts. And I thought, well, what were some of the shows I was listening to? And some of the ones at that point? There was a lot of interview based shows. I’d found Marc Maron by that point in 2014.
00:07:53:54 – 00:08:17:10
Dan Lizette
And, and of course, fresh Air from NPR with Terry Gross. And I was really intrigued by the conversation based, interview based where you could hear aside from some people, you would listen to, on those shows, it was often comedians or actors or movie stars or what have you, those type of folks, and you’d hear a side of them that you never heard before in those episodes of those podcasts always intrigued me so much.
00:08:17:10 – 00:08:30:41
Dan Lizette
And I thought, well, maybe I could bring a side of a podcast in and of itself. And kind of generate that same interest in the listenership. And that was my idea, and that’s where I went.
00:08:30:46 – 00:09:02:04
Agent Palmer
So you took what I would consider a very linear path to your podcast. You found podcasts, you enjoyed podcasting, and then you made the step to, what am I going to do? And then this is what I’m going to do. And then you did it. I mean, I guess the elephant in the room now that I’m doing my own show, which I believe we talked about at one point when I was on your show.
00:09:02:09 – 00:09:03:13
Dan Lizette
Sure.
00:09:03:17 – 00:09:29:00
Agent Palmer
And has been talked about for a while is that I was a, I mean, I, I use the term proxy caster, but I want to say serial guest and podcast producer, but I never called myself a podcaster, and I came about it by just happenstance. I had a friend who kept telling me, you have to listen to podcasts, you have to listen to podcasts.
00:09:29:00 – 00:09:49:21
Agent Palmer
And Maron was a big one, that he kept pushing and I, I don’t know how I decided to start with that one. Nerdist, but I did, and I enjoyed it. And then I checked out Maron and I enjoyed it. And those two I still listen to to this day. And then it was just a matter of like, branching out into, like, what else?
00:09:49:21 – 00:10:15:29
Agent Palmer
So you look up geek, you look up nerd, because these are the things I was interested in. And I wasn’t thinking when and podcasts. So those are the three. Right. So podcast Nerdist at the time and Maron and they’re very broad based shows. So when I went looking for more, I went looking for nerd and geek. I didn’t think, I mean, technology would have been one.
00:10:15:29 – 00:10:32:24
Agent Palmer
I don’t think I ever got that far down until later on. But I didn’t think like, you know, just a show or like, oh, like, I like ThunderCats when I was a kid. Like, let me find that podcast. I know it’s out there, but I now I know it’s out there, but I never thought about hyper focused.
00:10:32:29 – 00:10:55:55
Agent Palmer
And then you get, I mean, I, I mean, I think I’ve talked about it on many other shows, but for people that only know me for this, I was the guy. I was the voice that shouted back from the void. And that’s kind of how I got into podcasting after I started becoming a listener, was I was the one who would give feedback and I would live tweet shows.
00:10:55:55 – 00:11:24:38
Agent Palmer
In fact, I still do for the most part. And it was it wasn’t a matter of if I was going to start a podcast. I know Dan is probably one of the biggest pushers on me. And you know, those people I worked with on other shows and it was always, when are you going to do your own show?
00:11:24:38 – 00:11:44:48
Agent Palmer
And I always said, no, I don’t need it. Like, I can stick with the proxy cash thing. I don’t need my show. I have yours and but in the back of my head, I always knew it was a win. It was never enough. And I. I mean, Dan, I’ll call you out right now like, I know I deflected an awful lot, but for you, was it the same thing?
00:11:44:48 – 00:11:50:14
Agent Palmer
Like, did you look at me and go like, he’s insane. Like it’s an if. I mean, it’s a win, not an if.
00:11:50:19 – 00:12:09:58
Dan Lizette
Sure. And it’s simple, right? Because you have your, And you. I believe you talked about this in the last episode. You talked about your blog and you talked about your writing and you. That means that you are a creator. You are a creative base person. And for those type of people, and to be honest, I don’t necessarily even consider myself one of these.
00:12:09:58 – 00:12:46:17
Dan Lizette
But, just enough to know this, that, ownership and creating something in your own vision is where you’re going to achieve that highest sense of satisfaction. So it didn’t really matter what you said all those years, Palmer, in terms of you had other shows and you weren’t going to do it. It was a question of win, because being a creative, you were going to just like you created your site, eventually create something so that you could fully realize your own vision so that you could sit in the driver’s seat so that you could plan out what the next episodes were, so that you could cover the topics that you wanted.
00:12:46:21 – 00:12:53:51
Dan Lizette
And you may be able to dabble in those things on other people’s shows, but it was never yours, and that’s why it was a win and not an ass.
00:12:53:51 – 00:13:25:34
Agent Palmer
Well, and it’s funny too, because I think I can find it. There’s a small circle of people I confided in about a year and a half ago where I was like, I’m definitely considering my own show. And you and I talked about it at the time, and I talked about it with a few other people, and it was the thing that always stopped me was, how do I make my podcast like the blog?
00:13:25:39 – 00:13:46:27
Agent Palmer
And I’m not talking in terms of like format or, you know, really, but I mean, listen, I’ve got a brand, Agent Palmer. I really like the brand. So the titled The Palmer Files kind of I mean, that’s but I wasn’t going to lean so heavy on the spy stuff. It was more about like, what content am I going to put out?
00:13:46:32 – 00:14:15:57
Agent Palmer
And I wanted it to be similar. I wanted the my blog has no restrictions. Why would I do the same to my podcast? Why would I limit my podcast to just books or just movies or whatever? And I understand this is the hard row to hoe, so to speak. Because I’m not hyper, you know, niche, which works very well for a lot of people.
00:14:16:02 – 00:14:43:43
Agent Palmer
This is going to be broad generalization and I, I, I honestly don’t know what to expect from this, but it has been fulfilling. So you were right on that account. I mean, you and probably 3 or 4 other people, but it’s just I was being fulfilled. I guess one of the things about me was the blog and the behind the scenes on the other shows was still fulfilling.
00:14:43:43 – 00:15:16:02
Agent Palmer
It’s not like I wasn’t being fulfilled or I was being taken advantage of. I just, I enjoyed working and I enjoyed the conversation and the camaraderie and you know, as well as anyone that when you’re doing your show, it it’s not even like it gets lonely at the top. It just gets lonely, like, yes, you’re talking to, podcasters and you’ve talked to multiple podcasters at once.
00:15:16:02 – 00:15:39:21
Agent Palmer
You’ve had like, co-hosts on together, but it’s you. And then when they go away, you do the edit and you do the promotion and one of the biggest hesitations for this whole thing was I was already doing that solo effort with the blog, do I really want to do this again? And I, I guess I decided on yes, because what’s the worst that could happen?
00:15:39:22 – 00:15:40:55
Dan Lizette
I could because we’re here.
00:15:40:59 – 00:16:03:21
Agent Palmer
Well, we’re here and it could. This is the third episode. Who who have I, you know. Well, I get to 300 when I get to one. I mean, I mean, I’ve already gotten to one and two and three, but like, we’ll get to ten. I hope so, but I feel like I had to give it a shot. And I also wanted to ask you like what was it like?
00:16:03:26 – 00:16:22:37
Agent Palmer
I mean, we talked about getting in the idea and doing it. What was it like releasing one and then releasing the 10th one and realizing that, like, you’re doing something and I’m not even talking about numbers, just you’re doing something, and occasionally somebody yells back, right?
00:16:22:37 – 00:16:45:51
Dan Lizette
So for me, I’m, I when I started in 2014, I was coming from a very different place than where you are now. You’ve almost done it in a way that was probably a bit more recommended in the sense that you have done, you know, producing type duties. You’ve seen the background and the, processes. You’ve been a guest dozens and dozens or hundreds of times at this point.
00:16:45:56 – 00:17:08:16
Dan Lizette
So you effectively knew what you were getting into for a lot of you listing a lot of you out there who maybe considering starting your own podcast, maybe you have it. And I hadn’t when I started the podcast digest in 2014. And you’re right in the sense that I didn’t know what was upcoming. And in terms of the way I felt, episode one was like, oh dear God, what?
00:17:08:21 – 00:17:33:35
Dan Lizette
What’s going to happen? And so on and so forth. And by episode ten, I realized that episode one sucked. And, and that’s what really what happens for almost everybody when you start out, it’s going to be bad. It’s going to be terrible. It is. You will inevitably look back on it and think, I wish I would have known now or then what I know now, which can be said about so many other aspects of life.
00:17:33:35 – 00:17:55:30
Dan Lizette
Right. So, it’s not unusual to feel that way or feel as if you hoped that it could be better, and you may even be tempted to just say, I’m going to pull those down, because I don’t want folks hearing that version of me because I know I progress. Now I learn more, whether that be sound quality, content, you know, the research you put into things before releasing episode, whatever it may be.
00:17:55:35 – 00:18:21:20
Dan Lizette
But I experienced or, experimented with multiple different formats. I came first. The actual initial thing I wanted to do was a recommendation show. And so actually, if you go way back in my catalog to the first ten episodes, you’re going to hear only me. You’re going to hear some terrible intro music, some terrible sound quality, and you’re going to hear me talk about two shows I recommended.
00:18:21:25 – 00:18:45:32
Dan Lizette
And that was the podcast digest in its very first, environment, version one, if you will, by episode 10 or 11, I had realized this was it wasn’t even interesting to me anymore and that I could bring those elements, later on. But I didn’t want it to be my focus. And that’s where the interview based format took hold.
00:18:45:36 – 00:19:07:45
Dan Lizette
And that was where I think I sort of hit a stride where I felt in the in the recommendation episodes, I almost started to run out of things to recommend, and I felt pressure on the week to find new things. And I was going out and literally pouring through the Apple podcast catalog, looking for things, trying it out, listening to it for like an hour and then going out and recommending it.
00:19:07:45 – 00:19:29:47
Dan Lizette
And I just it didn’t feel right. Whereas the interviews were more conversational, and I was really able to get deep into the topic and have a conversation with another creator and really figure out what made them tick, what made, what went into the whole show. I’ve said a lot about the podcast. I just that it was a director’s commentary track for podcasts.
00:19:29:47 – 00:19:51:38
Dan Lizette
And so those of you a little bit older, remember DVD is and I think some Blu ray still do this where, directors would do commentaries over top of a movie. So you’d watch the movie and hear a director talking the whole time. And I used to always love listening to those because you would find out things about the movie you loved that you never knew before, and probably never would have if that commentary didn’t exist.
00:19:51:43 – 00:20:10:31
Dan Lizette
And that was sort of the spirit that I still to this day want to create. In an interview on the podcast where somebody who chose to listen to this is going to find out something about this show or this host or both, that nobody else is going to know unless they tuned in. And that’s where I came from there.
00:20:10:31 – 00:20:41:03
Dan Lizette
So it’s a wild feeling releasing it. There’s a huge sense of pride. Then there’s pressure. Then ultimately what I realized in the end, I know I’m going long here, Palmer, but what I realize is that if you’re going to be able to continue, if Palmer files is going to have life to ten to 100 to 300 episodes, that those conversations you have, you have to thoroughly enjoy them and you have to thoroughly want to keep doing them.
00:20:41:03 – 00:20:54:02
Dan Lizette
If that isn’t true, the numbers don’t matter, the editing doesn’t matter, the marketing doesn’t matter. None of that matters if you don’t truly enjoy those conversations. And as long as you do, it’ll keep happening.
00:20:54:07 – 00:21:16:41
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah. And it it it’s funny you bring up DVD commentaries because there’s always there’s the I know there’s some truth to this, but Kevin Smith and Scott Mosier data commentary track I don’t remember on what movie and they call that the first podcast for for better or worse. I mean, it, it’s out there somewhere. I don’t think it’s an urban myth.
00:21:16:41 – 00:21:41:57
Agent Palmer
I feel like that’s fairly accurate and I also wanted to say, like you interview very well, I you’ve interviewed friends of mine after I knew them through podcasting and got stuff out of them that I was surprised. I’m not going to say necessarily that like, I was, you know, I had never known that information, but I was surprised you got it out of them.
00:21:41:57 – 00:22:13:57
Agent Palmer
You sure you do it very well. And we talked a little bit about your background, like you weren’t intimidated by a microphone, which, by the way, folks can be intimidating. And you were clearly not afraid of your own voice. As a short little aside, the first podcast I ever was on was The Stranger Conversations with Grant Markham, and that was, I was a stranger to Grant at the time, and we went for like two hours, two 52 hours and 50 minutes, something that, let’s say for the argument, we went for two hours.
00:22:13:57 – 00:22:44:08
Agent Palmer
That’s how long the episode was. It took me the better part of an entire day to listen back to that episode, because I didn’t want to hear myself, and I presume being a GJ, not only being on the mic, but you’ve heard yourself before, so you’ve gotten over that. Well, but the interview, the ability to interview, I mean, obviously you’ve grown.
00:22:44:08 – 00:23:02:51
Agent Palmer
I mean, it’s experience. You’ve done over 100 episodes. But did was there, was there a hesitance or was it like, oh, well, if I’m going to do this, I’m just going to do this, or did you have some kind of background in it at all or was that just, I’m going to do this. I’m going to get better at it because I’m just going to keep doing it.
00:23:02:56 – 00:23:26:36
Dan Lizette
See interviews me and and and I want to stress I believe I’m a very unfinished product. I believe I have a lot to learn. In the interview skill set, I look up to, the Marines and the, you know, the fresh hairs over Terry Gross. And now that lately, I’m spending time listening to a couple others that I think are just fun.
00:23:26:43 – 00:23:49:19
Dan Lizette
Dax Shepard, an armchair expert, is really killing it right now with the interview skill set. And I think that the most important thing, if you have an interview based show or even if it’s not based if you’re going to do an interview on your shows, is to almost not think of it as one, in that it is effectively a conversation.
00:23:49:19 – 00:24:12:37
Dan Lizette
And that could be a little bit of a misnomer. And it can also be a little bit of a cliche. And what I mean by that is you’re not going to talk to this person as if it was some stranger on an elevator, and you just talk to them back and forth. Of course not. When I’m in a conversation, you want to try to shy away from the Q in the A format whenever you can.
00:24:12:37 – 00:24:34:28
Dan Lizette
Of course, a lot of conversations are going to be kickstarted by a question, but it doesn’t want to feel. And I’ve heard interviewers do this, especially ones that you can tell are very green and don’t have the experience that they’ve pre-written 20 questions and they’re literally going to read from that list, and the person will give their response, and the person then it will ask number two and so on and so forth.
00:24:34:33 – 00:25:01:53
Dan Lizette
Those are terrible to listen to. They’re terrible to be on the the other end of those questions, and they’re just not a good experience. So what I do when I’m prepping for an interview, and I think this is super important, is the first thing is research. And what I mean by that is I hope if, the podcast digest is doing what I’ve always envisioned it to do, which is to pull in, hopefully some of the bigger, more well-known names is that these people have been interviewed hundreds of times in the past.
00:25:02:07 – 00:25:21:20
Dan Lizette
Right. You are occupying a chair that’s been occupied so many times previously. And what’s super important to me is I don’t want to sound like everybody else. I don’t want to put these people through or lull them to sleep, or have them turn on their interview response mode, and just do what everybody else has ever done.
00:25:21:25 – 00:25:38:19
Agent Palmer
So this is this something that you started with, like was, I mean, so you you knew all this going in, which is probably the biggest leg up. I mean, you talk about the experience I had getting into it. I mean, having that as a mentality going in is huge.
00:25:38:32 – 00:25:43:53
Dan Lizette
Yes. Which is why I’m sharing it here for anyone who could be listening to this, because this is important.
00:25:43:57 – 00:25:56:55
Agent Palmer
Well, did you is this because of listening to the bad episodes or. Yeah. Not bad. So you knew the good in the bad ahead of time and you were like, well, I’m definitely going to lean towards the good.
00:25:57:00 – 00:26:16:29
Dan Lizette
Well, and from listening to Marin. Right. For all those years, from listening to Terry Gross, you hear that they clearly are coming from a very educated place. Maron will watch the movies and listen to the albums and, and and what have you. And so what I mean by that was, you know, my first quote, big interview, if you will.
00:26:16:29 – 00:26:34:15
Dan Lizette
And it’s funny because at the time I interviewed her, it was big to me then. And she’s only become so much bigger now, which was, Phoebe Judge from criminal and radio topia when I interviewed her. Not only was I freaking out, but, but I what I did was I just started. I sticked her name in Google.
00:26:34:17 – 00:26:55:14
Dan Lizette
I started reading every article I could find, especially interview based articles. I watched every YouTube video I could find. I wanted to hear the intonation of her voice in advance, so I wouldn’t be struck by that. I wanted to see what other newspaper based interviews or magazine based interviews, what other questions they’d asked her, because I wasn’t going to ask the same ones, or at least I was going to put my own spin on them.
00:26:55:28 – 00:27:15:11
Dan Lizette
And so on, so forth. And I remember arguably, and I think many people would look at it many different ways. But speaking of Utopia, I also interviewed Roman Mars, and for him there was a wealth of information out there. I watched probably 3 or 4 hours of YouTube videos of interviews he’d done that were up on YouTube, and I watched them all.
00:27:15:11 – 00:27:37:25
Dan Lizette
And the reason I did that was that I wanted. If you’re going to engage these people conversationally to to achieve that goal I’m talking about. So it’s not just Q&A, they need to be intrigued by you as the other half of that conversation. And one of the easiest ways to do that. And it’s not easy, but the easiest way to do it is that you don’t sound like somebody else.
00:27:37:25 – 00:28:01:37
Dan Lizette
They’ve already talked to you. So when you construct your outline, when you construct bullets or and that’s usually what I do. I do not list verbatim questions in advance. I’m constructing an outline and bullets in just sort of giving myself topics, many topics, ideas to kind of guide a conversation. That helps me not sound like a robot asking predetermined questions.
00:28:01:42 – 00:28:20:56
Dan Lizette
And to try to, carve out areas that I think, you know, I watch these 3 to 4 hours of Roman Mars videos and nobody talked about this. So I want to bring that up. Now, does that mean he’s never been asked that question? Not necessarily. But it’s probably not that common in that in and of itself can be engaging to a guest.
00:28:20:56 – 00:28:39:36
Dan Lizette
And so that’s kind of the mentality I, I would go into these because I’d heard those bad ones. And honestly you can still hear them. There are 500,000 podcast on Apple Podcasts right now. A lot of Indies, and no disrespect to my indie brethren, because I’m just a single guy sitting in a basement with a microphone. I’m just like you.
00:28:39:40 – 00:28:43:11
Dan Lizette
But I do not want to sound like I’m reading a list of questions.
00:28:43:16 – 00:29:14:27
Agent Palmer
Well, it’s funny because your process is very similar to my process. I mean, as a as a peek behind the curtain for this show, this episode specifically, I, I have a few questions written down. I’ve got a few topics and hopefully the conversation allows us to hit them however they go. I’m, you know, if if I don’t if I don’t ask the first question, if I ask the first question because it’s at the top of the page or whatever, that’s fine.
00:29:14:32 – 00:29:37:12
Agent Palmer
And if you answered the third question, well, then I, you know, maybe I go to four and then go back to like whatever. Like, I, I like the looseness. I didn’t realize that you and I had a similar process. But then again, I’ve never done this. The, the only other times I’ve ever hosted. And it’s not like I’m a novice at this.
00:29:37:16 – 00:30:09:55
Agent Palmer
I’ve hosted probably five or 6 or 7 times. Was a music show that I co-hosted with Chris Meyer, called our liner notes. And 99% of the time, Chris is the host and he’s driving it, and I get to be the Ed McMahon. And I just want to let everybody know Ed McMahon or the Ed McMahon of any show has the best job of any show because you get to you, you still have to do the homework, but you don’t have to drive.
00:30:10:00 – 00:30:29:54
Agent Palmer
And that is huge. And then, when I did take the reins of our liner notes, it was foreign. It was like it was almost like, what am I? What am I doing? This is somebody, I’m sitting in someone else’s chair and it just doesn’t feel right. And I mean, you get over it because you want to do it.
00:30:29:54 – 00:30:53:55
Agent Palmer
You’re you’re in this together. It’s one of the things I admire about you, Dan, is because they’re very. They’re really wasn’t, we’re in this together, like you were in this for you. And that’s, you know, this this show that we’re on right now is the first one that’s ever been like a solo venture. Whereas all the other ones I’ve ever done, you know, we’re doing it for the team.
00:30:54:00 – 00:31:17:26
Agent Palmer
We’re doing it for each other. You know, numbers be what they are. We’re having fun and, you know, when I sat in Grant Marcum shoes to to do a special. Well, you know what? I’ll tell the story so quick. I was on the stranger cans. I got to know Grant, and we were no longer strangers. But I basically became his producer for a season two.
00:31:17:26 – 00:31:40:13
Agent Palmer
That didn’t happen. But when we were preparing for season two, we did do one full episode, which was of my our liner notes co-host Chris Meyer. Chris, since, launched a show with his wife Kristen called How Was Your Week, honey? And Chris had always asked me about that stranger cousins episode, and I was like, well, you know what?
00:31:40:18 – 00:32:03:12
Agent Palmer
For one time only, I will host Kristen’s Stranger Cousins episode. So that way, I mean, that was the whole purpose. Hugh Grant was going to have both of them on. Now it’s a different host, but you’re still getting asked that same questions. And Chris and I start out with a conversation, a former guest here and, you know, then I get into The stranger ten also an odd experience.
00:32:03:12 – 00:32:32:11
Agent Palmer
I’m stepping in for a friend, which in almost every case I’ve hosted, I’ve stepped in for somebody else. But it’s a completely different it’s unlike anything else. And I talked about being comfortable with the mic and listening to your own voice. These are what I would call barriers to podcasting. And I’m not saying they’re huge hurdles, but some people just aren’t comfortable with the microphone.
00:32:32:22 – 00:32:57:49
Agent Palmer
You’re probably not going to be able to do a podcast, and if you’re not comfortable listening to the sound of your own voice, you probably won’t be able to do a podcast. These are just standard things that go with the territory. If you don’t like editing, you’re not going to be able to write. And one of the great things about podcasting is one, you’re allowed to not be good the first time out.
00:32:57:54 – 00:33:32:23
Agent Palmer
It’s kind of like anything else you talked about. Still having episode one, two, three, four like the early episodes up. My first blog that I ever wrote is still available. I didn’t take it down just because it’s not quite the same as everything I’ve done since. But you get better. And I think that for most podcasters, those first ten episodes, five episodes, 20 whatever it is before you find your groove, those are a badge of honor, because that was the first step that got me to where I am today, whatever that happens to be, right?
00:33:32:23 – 00:33:32:56
Agent Palmer
I mean, that’s.
00:33:33:10 – 00:33:33:53
Dan Lizette
I fully agree.
00:33:33:57 – 00:34:11:53
Agent Palmer
That’s completely important. But I also wanted to talk to you about podcasting. Now, I’ve, I haven’t exactly written extensively about podcasting as a medium, but I have written enough. And there are a couple things I wanted to discuss with you. The first being podcasting seems to be a very indie mentality, right? And it’s not indie versus mainstream, but it kind of is in that we talk about I knew them way before they were big.
00:34:11:53 – 00:34:38:49
Agent Palmer
Like, I knew this band before they hit it big in their first big album, and that’s a badge of honor. And there’s a community that surround these bands almost like a cocoon before they get their big contract. And podcasts are very similar, and that cocoon of community grows because indie podcasters are not saying all the time, but indie podcasters are more approachable.
00:34:38:54 – 00:35:12:08
Agent Palmer
They they’re trying to cultivate an audience, and they’re willing to interact with you because they want to cultivate an audience. I’m I’m no different, but there’s something special about that community, these communities that surround these shows. And when shows pod fade maybe not after three episodes, but definitely after ten, 12, 15, 20. There’s a community that sometimes they go to another show, sometimes they maintain themselves and sometimes they don’t.
00:35:12:08 – 00:35:43:42
Agent Palmer
And that community is very specific to podcasting in that it borrows something from music that not many other mediums do. This doesn’t happen with. This might happen with a message board 20 years ago, but it doesn’t happen with like a website today at all. Do you find that that those communities are something special, not just to indie podcasting, but to podcasting in general?
00:35:43:47 – 00:36:20:33
Dan Lizette
Sure. Clearly a community can, spring up around a especially a topic based show. Right? So I’m thinking of, you know, podcasters I’ve met, a podcast movement. I remember one who was into couples finance, right. And so, that community has a lot of young newlyweds that are struggling with their finances. And so because many podcasts and I know you just talked about how yours is so broad, but many of them are what, libsyn loves to call niched down.
00:36:20:33 – 00:36:47:50
Dan Lizette
Right. The idea that they have gone into a particular slice of life or society or culture and really honed in on servicing that passionate, audience. And so a community springs up around that passion. So if you’re big into, I’m a big dog guy, I have five dogs and my favorite dog. My wife says I can’t have a favorite dog, but I do.
00:36:47:55 – 00:37:13:21
Dan Lizette
My favorite dog is my Boston terrier. So if I was a super passionate Boston Terrier dog owner, I may start a Boston Terrier podcast, which, no joke, I did actually kick around at one point. I’m not even exaggerating. But if that were to happen, then I’m going to be more than likely one of the few Boston Terrier focused podcasts.
00:37:13:32 – 00:37:32:04
Dan Lizette
Which means if I throw up a Facebook page or I have a Twitter account, I am like putting a magnet up into the dog owner community and say, if you’ve got a Boston terrier and you love him or her, come listen to this, because I’m going to be telling stories and sharing research and talking about Boston Terrier topics.
00:37:32:04 – 00:37:54:38
Dan Lizette
And so it draws those people in, and those people are coming to that topic already with an Uber fanaticism. And so you’re right, a community does spring up on there. And with the podcast, I just I don’t have that right. I’m looking at the world of podcasts like you’ve talked about. You are looking at a very broad topic base.
00:37:54:38 – 00:38:19:55
Dan Lizette
And so it’s very plausible, Paul Art, that you may not ultimately have that Uber fanatic cool listening base because to be honest with you, I don’t think I do or ever had, in my glory days of the podcast digest. And the reason is, is because we are trying to carve such a wide swath. But if you have niche down all the way in, yes, you are probably bringing that up.
00:38:19:55 – 00:38:30:59
Dan Lizette
And if six or 8 or 10 episodes later, I’ve attracted 5000 super passionate Boston Terrier owners and I decide to fold that show, somebody’s going to be upset.
00:38:31:04 – 00:39:05:29
Agent Palmer
Yes, but I did. You bring up a very interesting point about that Boston Terrier podcast you didn’t launch, which is podcasters. Podcasting begets podcasting, I guess is what I want to say. Like, I’m still helping out with a bunch of shows and that will basically feed and fill my hunger for more podcasts. But you, I just look around me, right?
00:39:05:34 – 00:39:31:32
Agent Palmer
In my initial circle when I first broke into podcasting, so to speak. Right. Jason, the angry Ginger has seven days a geek, but he also had podcasting 101, and he actually also had a Better Call Saul show, and his co-host at the time, Grant, did a spin off, The Stranger Conversations. And, Bill from the Wicked Theory podcast episode one right here.
00:39:31:37 – 00:40:07:30
Agent Palmer
Spun off a show about preacher and, you know, our very good mutual friend who comes and goes Diamond Dave. Diamond Dave had a show with his father. He had a show, podcast Without Borders, and then he started the Diamond Dave Show. Then he started Chronicles on written. These are the people that are around me, obviously, but they are not to themselves unique podcasters, once they get one show in them, always seem to go and look for the next one.
00:40:07:34 – 00:40:20:12
Agent Palmer
So I guess my question is you talk to a lot of these people. Is there a reason like is is there something missing from their first one? Or it’s this is fun. I want to do it more.
00:40:20:17 – 00:40:57:34
Dan Lizette
Probably both. I think probably both. And the reason I would say that the first one applies is because I think that’s where when I kicked around, the idea, I had an idea at a point for a second show, I’d kicked around the idea. And the reason, the only reason is, is that I felt as if there was something that if your first show starts to feel like work or your first show starts to obtain any type of attributes that you didn’t envision or don’t want, or becomes a heavy lift or something like that.
00:40:57:39 – 00:41:16:57
Dan Lizette
The immediate tendency is to start to think that if you try again, you may be able to stay in the lane that you always wanted to. I want it to be all happy. I want it to be an easy lift. I want it to be super fun and passionate and engaging audience and whatever it is that you had in mind.
00:41:17:12 – 00:41:36:46
Dan Lizette
And if you don’t kind of tick all those boxes the first time out, then you start to think about the second time out. Now, just as an aside, the only reason that never happened for me, not the Boston Terrier podcast, but any second podcast. I have always been a solo, show owner, if you will. I’ve never started a second show or even participated.
00:41:37:00 – 00:42:01:44
Dan Lizette
I’ve been a guest dozens of times, but never co-hosted the second show or any of that. Nature was and this is something as well, you know, given the topic today and hopefully some folks potentially finding this episode, Palmer that may be considering starting their own show is that don’t go into it with a mentality that you’re going to have a stable of shows, especially depending upon what your first show is.
00:42:01:44 – 00:42:29:03
Dan Lizette
And I can attribute this to the podcast. I just we were talking about earlier some of the interview prep and things of that nature. During my heyday, I went three consecutive years and released a new a brand new episode every week for three years. That was an extraordinary amount of work, an extraordinary amount of time. What folks were hearing most commonly was anywhere from a 45 to a 75 minute episode.
00:42:29:07 – 00:42:52:11
Dan Lizette
Most commonly. And what they weren’t hearing was, I would estimate 12 to 14 hours total effort over the course of a week to hit the publish button on Libsyn. And I, like just about every other person you ever listen to, has a day job. You know, this is a hobby where weekend warriors, so to speak. And, I actually have two jobs.
00:42:52:16 – 00:43:12:47
Dan Lizette
And so this always had to be slotted into that time, which was left. And so that’s why show number two never really materialized for me, because it just wasn’t feasible. And the hiatus I’ve been on for a very long time, really was attributed to because the first job or two jobs just over took those 12 to 14 hours.
00:43:12:47 – 00:43:31:49
Dan Lizette
I really needed to even get an episode out. So so be careful about the idea. Now, those folks that you know are able to launch two and three and four and so on and so forth. You know, everybody’s situation is different. And if you’re able to do it and you know, the satisfaction level multiplies, then I say, more power to you.
00:43:32:02 – 00:44:02:53
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And I, I can attest to the grind nature of it. I’m approaching 5 or 6 years with not having missed a weekly post. Now, over over that period of time, I’ve done more than a weekly post, but at minimum you get to post every Thursday, and the only few exceptions where that didn’t happen was I was really excited about the post and posted it on Wednesday instead.
00:44:02:58 – 00:44:29:33
Agent Palmer
Which is not a good idea, by the way. Like you should really just stick to it no matter how excited you are. But that grind and I’m still in it while I’m adding this on top of it, that grind is while it is fulfilling you need you’re still trying to put out a good product. I’m with this podcast, with podcast digest, with with my blog, with anything, especially from a creative.
00:44:29:38 – 00:44:51:04
Agent Palmer
We’re not looking to just give you something. We’re looking to give you something we’re proud of. It’s not just, hey, it’s another week. Here’s a post. I’m not saying I’ve never done that. I’m just saying like, that’s not what the goal is. The goal in starting a blog, the goal and starting a podcast is not every week, every two weeks.
00:44:51:04 – 00:45:15:54
Agent Palmer
You’re going to get something from me like, that’s not even enticing to say, much less to be on the, you know, consuming end of. So I get it. Like, I completely understand. And I know at some point I remember you having a conversation with Pod Fade, and I only want to touch on it really quick in that this is the third episode, so it’s potential that I’ll pod fade by the time you hear this.
00:45:15:54 – 00:45:38:55
Agent Palmer
If you’re listening to this well, after I mean, maybe I’ll survive, maybe I won’t, but Pod Fade is is the idea that, you know, it fades away. And it’s funny. I go back to that. The first episode I ever did right here with Bill Sweeney was about the dip, and it was, you know, so you start something new, you start a project, and it gets really excited.
00:45:39:06 – 00:46:00:45
Agent Palmer
And then, I mean, I’m paraphrasing here, but like you hit that point where it starts to go down and that’s called the dip. And that dip is pod fade. That’s what it is. It get, it becomes work, it becomes hard. It’s you’re not as good as it as it at at it as you thought you would be. At this point, you’re not progressing.
00:46:00:50 – 00:46:28:46
Agent Palmer
And pod feed happens to people that are very talented. It it’s not, you know, anything other than just circumstance. Really. Whatever. I have a day job to whatever your day job is, 90%, 90, 95% of indie podcasters. That’s just a I’m guessing stat. I’ll be honest with everyone. But like, we, we all have day jobs. Very few of us do this for a living.
00:46:28:46 – 00:46:48:58
Agent Palmer
That I’d say if the if 5% of indie podcasts are doing it for a living, good on them. It seems like a high number to begin with. But the pod feed exists not just because you didn’t like the project. That, or you didn’t like the show you were doing. That’s not necessarily what happens, but that’s a side like I’m getting off.
00:46:48:58 – 00:46:55:08
Agent Palmer
Dan, I wanted to play devil’s advocate with you regarding podcasting.
00:46:55:13 – 00:46:57:16
Dan Lizette
Okay. Do it.
00:46:57:21 – 00:47:28:15
Agent Palmer
Is podcasting a step backwards? And what I mean by that is the most common, phrase I hear when people ask what a podcast is in order to get them to understand it is quote unquote, on demand radio. And whenever I hear that, I feel like podcasting ends up being a step backwards because radio is a step backwards.
00:47:28:15 – 00:47:34:53
Agent Palmer
We went from radio to television. Like going back to radio seems counterintuitive.
00:47:34:58 – 00:47:58:33
Dan Lizette
I don’t think so. I think if you I think what you’re what you’re doing there is you’re drawing a timeline of the dominant, entertainment medium for, you know, society. So and like the, you know, the early 1900s, 19 tens, it was radio and radio dramas and things of that nature. And then as TV came out, TV started to edge it out.
00:47:58:33 – 00:48:31:01
Dan Lizette
And then you know, radio would fade and so on and so forth. And so the concept of going back to radio feels like a step backwards. But I don’t think that’s looking at it the right way. And what I mean by that is that if right now, if you go on to Netflix and watch a movie, does that feel, you know, as if, how about I put this, that, that, that in somehow would negate the concept of you going to a movie?
00:48:31:06 – 00:49:07:52
Dan Lizette
For most people, they would say, no, maybe that’s something they would do less, but most people would acknowledge that a moviegoing experience delivers some elements that Netflix can’t write. One, more than likely a bigger screen. Right? Probably a better sound system. Right? So there are certain elements in the delivery vehicle that are unique, even though hypothetically, it could seem as if going to a movie would be not utilizing the most, you know, modern delivery vehicle for entertainment, which one might say is Netflix or Amazon Prime or whatever the case may be.
00:49:08:03 – 00:49:29:47
Dan Lizette
So the reason that movie theater still exists and the reason that Netflix still exists is that they’re delivering different things. And the fact of the matter is, radio still exists today. And the reason that is, is that, you know, it has transitioned in a lot of ways, right? Terrestrial radio has sort of evolved into satellite radio. You know, both of them still exist, and they both have benefits.
00:49:29:49 – 00:49:48:33
Dan Lizette
Satellite. You have to pay for terrestrial. You don’t. And so I don’t think it’s necessarily a step back. I think what you’re doing there is how would you explain Netflix to somebody who had never heard of it before? And we all went through this, right, 10 or 12 years ago when they were making the transition from DVD to web based.
00:49:48:38 – 00:50:06:40
Dan Lizette
If you were early on the Netflix online train, how do you explain it to your parents when you told them it was worth signing up for? You can get the movies right on your computer. Honestly, you can. And you just hit play and you get whatever you want and you explained it. It’s like it’s like getting the DVD in the mail, but you just do it on your computer, right?
00:50:06:40 – 00:50:31:30
Dan Lizette
So I think that’s what people are saying when they say on demand radio, what you’re doing is you’re taking a relatable medium, something that everybody everybody knows what radio is, and saying it’s like radio in your phone, except you get to pick what you listen to. So I don’t know that it’s necessarily labeling it to step back as much as it is, labeling it a relatable medium to the vast majority.
00:50:31:35 – 00:50:55:50
Agent Palmer
All right. I mean, I, I’d like to play devil’s advocate with you more, but I don’t have any more, like, negative things for podcasting. I mean, the I guess the the other thing about podcasting, I mean, I talked about podcasting be getting podcasting from a podcaster perspective, but from a listener perspective. I don’t know anyone who listens to one podcast.
00:50:55:55 – 00:51:07:08
Agent Palmer
Now I say that it’s very it it’s very possible that there is one exception to that rule, and that is the parents of podcasters.
00:51:07:13 – 00:51:07:34
Dan Lizette
Sure.
00:51:07:43 – 00:51:08:16
Agent Palmer
So like.
00:51:08:16 – 00:51:09:10
Dan Lizette
I’m just.
00:51:09:15 – 00:51:14:03
Agent Palmer
I’m convinced that my mother will listen to my podcast.
00:51:14:08 – 00:51:17:10
Dan Lizette
Really? My mother doesn’t listen to mine. I don’t look good on you.
00:51:17:17 – 00:51:36:51
Agent Palmer
I don’t think she’ll listen. I don’t think she’ll follow me to any other show because she hasn’t yet. I mean, we we beat around the bush. I’ll. I’ll give the number like I’m over a hundred guest appearances on other shows. And I think my mother’s listening to two of them. That’s not a good percentage like this. It’s not.
00:51:36:51 – 00:51:59:24
Agent Palmer
But I’m so outside of that relationship. Best friends might do it to people who listen to podcasts, don’t tend to listen to one. They always tend to be like, well, I, I listen to this and I there’s one that starts it, you know what I mean? Like that’s you know, I remember that Nerdist, Alton Brown, that’s the one that started it.
00:51:59:29 – 00:52:25:29
Agent Palmer
But I have I have two playlists. One has like 12 on it. That’s my weekly playlist. I listen to these, I listen to these shows. Marantz on it as a great example. Mayor and I listen to Monday and Thursday. That’s when I listen to Marin. Right. Dark Angels and Pretty Freaks. I listen to every Sunday. It’s just what I do that that actually comes out Saturday.
00:52:25:33 – 00:52:55:48
Agent Palmer
But then I’ve got another playlist called sometimes, which I try to get to, but it’s a lot of podcast listening. It’s I don’t have just one show, and with the exception of when I started, I never had one show. I started looking I it may be a pattern, but like when people talk about podcasting from, as a medium and people are like, oh, well, there’s, you know, podcast audiences are growing.
00:52:55:57 – 00:53:28:54
Agent Palmer
They are, but they’re overlapping to podcasting in, in regards to audience is like magazines people don’t usually or or it it is like magazines were very few people had one magazine subscription coming to their house. If they were subscribing to magazines, they were subscribing to magazine. Right. And podcasting kind of falls down that same rabbit hole where if you’re listening to podcast, you’re listening to podcasts.
00:53:28:58 – 00:53:50:44
Dan Lizette
Yeah, I think so. I think that happens. I think that I think it’s very much going back to sort of the Netflix analogy I made. It’s very rare. And there are so CBS All Access probably fits in this category. It’s very rare you subscribe to a service and watch one thing, right? If you are still if you’re not a cord cutter yet, you’re subscribed to, cable.
00:53:50:46 – 00:54:14:57
Dan Lizette
I bet you watch more than one channel if you, if you get a book, I bet you read more than one chapter. You know, if you buy an album, I bet you listen to more than one song. And so it all kind of continues in that same vein, right? And especially easy in podcasting because unlike Netflix or that album, or that book, it doesn’t cost a thing.
00:54:15:02 – 00:54:56:11
Dan Lizette
You get this app on your phone and is huge fields and folders and albums, and you just start clicking and it’s all free, right? So you can literally just type in things you like. If you’re big into Dragon Ball Z, type that in there’s 30 podcasts for you. You know, if you’re big into, plant based meats, type that in there’s 30 podcasts for you once you understand how this application works, how what you’re getting applies to you, all of a sudden you realize you start typing in your interests, then all of a sudden, here’s this world of people that are putting out things that you can stick in your ears, that you can
00:54:56:11 – 00:55:20:26
Dan Lizette
listen to when you walk the dog, that you can listen to when you mow the yard, that you can listen to when you do the dishes, that you can listen to when you’re on your commute, of people that are passionately talking about what you’re into and that’s better than Netflix, because if your spouse makes you watch something on Netflix that you’re not into, you just wasted that time because you never cared in the first place.
00:55:20:37 – 00:55:41:28
Dan Lizette
But on that podcast, you’re big into those plant based foods, and so listening to somebody talk about it really kind of scratches an itch for you because especially like we were talking about niches with podcasts. Go back to my Boston Terrier example. I love my Boston terrier. But you know what? I don’t have any friends or family that have a Boston terrier.
00:55:41:41 – 00:55:59:48
Dan Lizette
Who else can I share my passion with about my dog? But if I type that in, look, here’s all these people I can. I can hop on their Facebook page. I can find them on Twitter. I can start engaging about this passion. And all of a sudden, something’s been unlocked in my brain to start typing in all the interests I have.
00:55:59:52 – 00:56:04:53
Dan Lizette
Then all of a sudden, your subscription list has to be broken to always in sometimes.
00:56:04:58 – 00:56:28:19
Agent Palmer
And the I mean, the other part of it is and it just so happens that three episodes in, I’ve had three podcasters on my show as guest. That’s not rare. You you will listen to your favorite show, whatever it is, right? Even if it is about Boston Terriers. And at some point there will be another podcaster that they have on as a guest.
00:56:28:24 – 00:56:30:30
Agent Palmer
I guess what? You might follow them.
00:56:30:43 – 00:56:50:37
Dan Lizette
Or they’ll they’ll mention another show. That was what used to happen to me when I was listen to my tech podcast. They will say I heard last week, so and so talk about blank on that show. And then all of a sudden this light bulb goes off on my mind. Ooh, I might want to check that out. Never heard of that that, you know, even if it’s not the host of the other show, if somebody even references another show, you might want to go take a look.
00:56:50:37 – 00:57:24:50
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Between name dropping episodes or saying like, hey, I was on X or having somebody on who hosts their own show. Podcasting basically is its own YouTube algorithm. Sure, if you listen to one show for long enough, they may not say, like, you have to go check out X, but they’ll say, I was on X. And if you’re listening to their show and they were on another one, chances are you’ll be interested in that.
00:57:24:59 – 00:57:42:39
Agent Palmer
Or if they have a guest on who has their own show, why is that guest on the show? You’re listening to that you like? You’ll probably want a tech. You can check it out so in a sense, podcasting kind of has its own YouTube algorithm nailed out. It’s already done.
00:57:42:44 – 00:58:02:25
Dan Lizette
And technology’s getting better with this too. And so just to jump into kind of like today podcasting space and I talked a lot about technology. Marco Arment is the, developer behind overcast, really popular iOS app. I have it on my phone. I’ve used it on many different occasions. It’s actually not my primary. That’s a different conversation.
00:58:02:36 – 00:58:28:40
Dan Lizette
But overcast is an excellent iOS podcast app, and Marco is on, ATP. He’s also on top four. He’s also on, Under the Radar, a couple different shows he does, but, Accidental Tech Podcast is his big one. And he dove into recently on a recent episode of, ATP about a brand new recommendations engine that he has launched inside of overcast.
00:58:28:40 – 00:59:00:39
Dan Lizette
And what he’s doing, he’s this app has been live for five years, and he has literally thousands and thousands and thousands of users. And while the data is anonymized, he can see user number one, two three, four and user number 567 have many things in common in terms of their subscription list. And so he can actually now he is now presenting in the app and the latest version show recommendations for people based on users who have similar subscriptions list to you.
00:59:00:53 – 00:59:24:14
Dan Lizette
So if you only subscribed to ten shows, he can go out and find other users. If they say, look, there are 2452 other users who also subscribe to these same ten shows. You know, 90% of them are also subscribing to this show, and he will throw that up then as a recommendation to you. And so technology now is starting to you don’t even have to hear it on a show now.
00:59:24:20 – 00:59:34:21
Dan Lizette
Now applications are starting to push forward recommendations that are intelligent and based on, you know, listeners who have similar, interests like you.
00:59:34:26 – 00:59:53:45
Agent Palmer
So, Dan, before I let you go, because we just finished talking about today in podcasting, I want to talk about the future of podcasting. Now. I mean, I’m not going to hold you to it. I’m not going to you’re not going to get an angry tweet from me in five years being like you said, that X I’m not going to do that.
00:59:53:45 – 01:00:03:43
Agent Palmer
But like and it doesn’t have to be five years. It could even be, you know, a year from now. But like, what is what’s in store for the future of podcasting?
01:00:03:48 – 01:00:30:21
Dan Lizette
Money, money and the broad commercialization? The big players are coming. They are in route and in a lot of cases are already here. IHeart radio, Spotify, have already been making large purchases. Big players are coming in and I think that we will see that as well. So I think ultimately what’s going to happen is, you know, and what’s funny is there’s a there’s an edge of the independent community that really hates this.
01:00:30:21 – 01:01:01:11
Dan Lizette
Right. The big players are coming and it’s so hard to get discovered. And this, that and the other. I just had a recent Twitter conversation with another independent podcaster. For some reason, people always approach me and, maybe because I’ve been around a little while now or I have, you know, a bit of a social following. And people are always making these comments about the independent community, and the big guys come in and waiting down the little guy and all this other thing that quite frankly, I, I, I don’t have a lot of patience for and I don’t really agree with a lot of the mentality that’s there.
01:01:01:11 – 01:01:30:23
Dan Lizette
And this is the why I say that is that YouTube is a thing. There are a lot of independent creators on YouTube. YouTube has thrived. It has now integrated itself into our culture. It is the main resource for so many things in life. If you want to kill time on your phone, on your laptop, on your Apple TV, on your Amazon Fire TV, there is you want tutorials, you want help, you want YouTube, is it?
01:01:30:23 – 01:01:53:33
Dan Lizette
But guess what? The major movie studios are there. And guess what they’re all doing? They’re all making video. There are video production houses that literally have thousands of employees that are turning out big budget movies and big budget TV shows for Netflix and Amazon and this and the other. And it hasn’t crushed YouTube. I mean, independent, you know, video creators still exist.
01:01:53:33 – 01:02:16:45
Dan Lizette
And some of them have been able to do pretty well. That’s how I think podcasting is going. The relationship of the Netflix and Amazon Prime and the movie theaters with YouTube is where I think podcasting will ultimately evolve to. The big players will be there, there will be big podcast releases, big podcast event type shows, series seasons. But guess what?
01:02:16:45 – 01:02:38:37
Dan Lizette
The Indies will still be there. Just like YouTube is still there with their video creators and hopefully podcasting will evolve so that that independent creator has more monetization options. Options, just like YouTube ultimately was able to create some channels in vehicles where those independent creators that do well do have the chance for some reward. I think that’s where podcasting going.
01:02:38:45 – 01:02:56:04
Dan Lizette
And I think it’s okay, because guess what? Every person in the world has heard of YouTube right now, and a lot of this, is because of what I’m describing. And right now, not every person has heard of podcasting. So the way I’ve looked at it is the more these big names and big name players start coming in, the better.
01:02:56:04 – 01:03:18:21
Dan Lizette
I mean, I’m not sure the exact release date that you are listening to this right now, dear listener, but, as we record this recently, Ron Burgundy appeared on six late night comedy shows. Of course, Will Ferrell as Ron Burgundy pulled this late night comedy stunt where he was on all the shows at the same time, the same evening.
01:03:18:25 – 01:03:43:22
Dan Lizette
And he did it the night before season two of the Ron Burgundy Podcast. Big recommendation, by the way. Listen to it. Think about that. A major comedy actor in America pulled the late night stunt, showing up on every late night talk show. And the main reason this whole thing got orchestrated and put together was to promote a podcast.
01:03:43:27 – 01:04:05:20
Dan Lizette
Now, I guarantee you, thousands of people who have never listened to a podcast just opened that podcast app on their phone for the first time, thanks to Ron Burgundy and Will Ferrell in those late night comedy shows. So if you’re one of those people who say, big guys, ooh, bad, this, that and the other, then you don’t want exposure to those thousands of listeners.
01:04:05:25 – 01:04:09:31
Dan Lizette
And I do. And that’s why I think the big guys are not a bad thing.
01:04:09:31 – 01:04:25:44
Agent Palmer
I think you’re absolutely right. I think I think a rising tide raises all ships. I mean, that basically what we’re talking about here, if, if, if Will Ferrell can bring in 2 million more listeners and then as we’ve talked about tonight as one show begets another.
01:04:25:46 – 01:04:26:55
Dan Lizette
Yeah.
01:04:27:00 – 01:04:53:06
Agent Palmer
He’s bringing those 2 million into the circle. They could easily end up on any of your shows. Sure. And using the YouTube example, if as the algorithms get better, as the computers get smarter, guess what? They could end up? Maybe they don’t subscribe to your show, but maybe your one show about this topic is something that comes up when people search for that topic.
01:04:53:17 – 01:05:21:27
Agent Palmer
And so that’s the one. Just like YouTube creators that have that one video that does very well. Maybe you’ve got one podcast episode. It just so happens that that’s the way it works. I’m completely with you 100%, and I’m still the guy that says blogging is not dead. I, I, I and I understand that I’m doing both. And so maybe take my opinion with a grain of salt, but there is still something valuable in the written word.
01:05:21:27 – 01:05:46:20
Agent Palmer
I’m still a voracious reader, which is probably why I’m such a prolific writer. I feel like those two things go hand in hand. Sure, the whole purpose of starting the podcast was not to take away from the blog. It’s I can’t do this on the blog. I did an interrogation of you on my blog. It was very much a Q and A, and there’s no other.
01:05:46:25 – 01:06:10:53
Agent Palmer
We couldn’t have this conversation on the blog. It’s just it’s not possible. And I want to have these conversations there, still in the wheelhouse of what I’m doing with the blog. But they’re extra and they’re special. And it’s it’s different when you’re sitting at a table listening to two friends discuss X for very long and this is what we’re doing, and that’s that’s what I’m doing.
01:06:10:58 – 01:06:32:20
Agent Palmer
And I thank you for agreeing to, you know, come on. Although I feel like somebody out there, a listener can, you know, bail me out on this, it’s possible Dan said something along the lines of, you can come back on the podcast digest when you have your own show.
01:06:32:25 – 01:06:36:48
Dan Lizette
You know, I think on one show somewhat, I think we were both a guest. Where are we?
01:06:36:48 – 01:06:54:38
Agent Palmer
Not somewhere it might have been on the Diamond Dave show, which I don’t know if that exists anymore, but that sounds probably like it. For the longest time, I mean, I guess this will be the, we’ll go out on this. For the longest time, I was like, Dan, when can I be on your show?
01:06:54:43 – 01:07:25:29
Dan Lizette
Yeah, I remember that. And you were on a recommendation show. I was, I remember, so you had to get your name in on the. You wanted to be included on my guest list. I, you know, you you really did. You got to slot in with some of those guests I’ve been very fortunate enough to talk to. So, mission accomplished, that’s for sure.
01:07:25:33 – 01:07:50:30
Agent Palmer
As I stated in the introduction to this episode, Dan and I have some news episodes, a new format for the podcast digest, and some interviews as well, a new dynamic for the podcast digest compared to the old one on one interviews of the past, I can’t state for certain it’s always like this, but I challenge anyone who wants to see the evolution of a show to go back and listen to just 16 episodes of the podcast digest.
01:07:50:35 – 01:08:11:38
Agent Palmer
Start with the first one and listen to every 10th episode. And in those 16, which spans five years, you will hear the evolution of a show. You can do it for many other shows as well, and while I’ve done some archive runs which are like video game dungeon crawls, except the monsters are the back catalog of a show you just found.
01:08:11:43 – 01:08:33:09
Agent Palmer
Even just cherry picking 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 of a show over 100 lifetime episodes or more, we’ll show you that progression, just like I spoke about in episode two with Kristin about blogging. It is so true in podcasting as well as we do evolve, we gain experience and that experience impacts the product that we produce.
01:08:33:14 – 01:08:56:38
Agent Palmer
Maybe it changes our voice or our perspective or our style. There are also outside influences that can factor in, but it’s always an evolution in that way. It’s like the Hulk in Avengers. Wait, what? Yes. At the end of the first Avengers film, Captain America asks Bruce Banner how he controls the anger, the fury, the Hulk, and Bruce says that’s the secret, cap.
01:08:56:49 – 01:09:20:41
Agent Palmer
I’m always angry, which has become a meme of itself and one in which I happen to dabble often because, well, I’m always tired. But in this case it works because we are always evolving. That’s just the way it is. So I want to ask you, how have you evolved? It doesn’t have to be that you have a podcast or a blog, but we’re all evolving professionally.
01:09:20:53 – 01:09:46:20
Agent Palmer
Personal life, hobbies. It happens. Let me know. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for some more official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re listening to this, I encourage you to join the discussion. Let me hear what you think. You can tweet the show at the Palmer Files, myself at Agent Palmer and this week’s guest, Dan Lizette at Pod Digest.
01:09:46:34 – 01:10:07:06
Agent Palmer
The show email is the Palmer files at gmail.com and don’t forget to visit the podcast digest.com to see Dan’s older episodes and do that dive and the new ones with me, and visit Agent palmer.com to see what I’ve got going on. You can also hear more of me in the meantime on our liner notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier.
01:10:07:15 – 01:11:03:18
Agent Palmer
And as I mentioned on this show many, many times as the co-host of the podcast digest with Dan Lizette until next time? Palmer, out.
01:11:03:23 – 01:11:09:05
Agent Palmer
Dan, do you have one question you would like to ask me?
01:11:09:10 – 01:11:15:08
Dan Lizette
All right, Palmer, one last question for you. I’ve talked about my favorite dog breed. What’s yours?
01:11:15:13 – 01:11:16:58
Agent Palmer
I’m a cat person.
01:11:17:03 – 01:11:20:40
Dan Lizette
That explains that.
01:11:20:44 – 01:11:22:09
Dan Lizette
Cut to music.
01:11:22:14 – 01:11:23:53
Agent Palmer
Dog. Beautiful.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).