Episode 145 features the return of my friend and Master to my Padawan in all things Star Trek, Edward O’Hare.
He has been my guide through my Star Trek journey and in this episode we’re going to reflect on my adventures on Deep Space Nine, before I embark upon the next Voyage…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Palmer’s Trek: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine
Special Guest Producer: Bill Sweeney.
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:24:25
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. The monster Book of Zombies reanimates a horror trope. Palmer’s Trek continues with Star Trek Deep Space Nine. And since last episode, Alissa has released more content on her channel. Go check it out. This is The Palmer Files episode 145, featuring the return of Edward O’Hare, who has been my guide through my Star Trek journey and we’re going to reflect on my adventures on Deep Space Nine before I embark upon the next voyage.
00:00:24:30 – 00:00:37:33
Agent Palmer
Are you ready? Let’s boldly go.
00:00:37:38 – 00:00:57:11
Agent Palmer
Palmer’s trek, the final frontier. These are my voyages on a continuing mission to explore Star Trek, to seek out television series and movies. To boldly go where many fans have gone before.
00:00:57:16 – 00:01:18:58
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 145th episode is Edward O’Hare, a friend and returning guest who’s here to help guide me as I continue to traverse the television and movies of one of his most beloved pillars of fandom, Star Trek. During this episode, we will discuss Star Trek Deep Space Nine and my experience watching the series.
00:01:18:58 – 00:01:44:18
Agent Palmer
Plus, Ed will prepare me for my next series, Star Trek Voyager. So that’s what you’re in for. But for those of you who have not been following along on the blog, why is any of this happening at all? That’s a good question. But the most honest answer is simply why not? So let’s talk about Star Trek. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all contact information for Ed and myself in the show notes.
00:01:44:23 – 00:02:06:01
Agent Palmer
You can find more information about my guest Ed by checking out his contributions to Wicked Theory at Wicked theory.com. Don’t forget, you can see all of my ratings and ratings on Agent palmer.com, including and specifically Agent palmer.com/star Trek, which will take you to all of the Palmer’s Trek series posts about Star Trek. I’ve written so far. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com.
00:02:06:15 – 00:02:12:39
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s boldly go.
00:02:12:44 – 00:02:34:21
Agent Palmer
And I watch you all a Deep Space 901 play every episode. Did enjoy it I, I really did good, good I really did. I think, I think it, I think it goes, I think it’s three for me.
00:02:34:26 – 00:02:35:53
Edward O’Hare
Really. Okay.
00:02:35:57 – 00:03:03:29
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Behind the two original series series. Okay. I still I still have a soft spot for the animated series, but like, it’s, it’s toss, toss, animated. And then I think it goes deep Space nine before the cinematic stuff, before TNG, I, I know there’s still a lot to come, but at the moment TNG goes, I mean, Deep Space Nine top three immediately.
00:03:03:33 – 00:03:08:40
Edward O’Hare
Okay, okay. It is a very polarizing series. What is.
00:03:08:45 – 00:03:10:44
Agent Palmer
Deep Space Nine?
00:03:10:49 – 00:03:27:16
Edward O’Hare
What I feel like there there were a lot of people who were like, very like this doesn’t jive with Roddenberry’s vision. And there there are a lot of people who think it’s too dark. It’s,
00:03:27:21 – 00:03:47:54
Agent Palmer
Oh, it’s so I will say. And I have my notebook handy. Yeah, just in case. But there was at least once, at least once. And this is saying a lot for this show. There’s at least once where there was an episode I think of maybe twice. There were at least once, but probably twice or three times where I wrote in my notes.
00:03:47:58 – 00:04:17:50
Agent Palmer
This feels like a Mash episode, and not one of the funny ones, right? Like there are, there are, and I don’t I don’t mean to say that as in, yeah, it validates it being dark, but I think it does take it in a place where, like, I, I don’t know, I, I would argue anybody who says that this is too dark, I would argue that the rest of it may have been too clean.
00:04:17:55 – 00:04:38:09
Agent Palmer
You know what I mean? Like, there’s because there’s a part of this series as you’re watching it that’s very much like, oh, like people die and not just disappear like in the original series, you know, just get favored and disappear like people don’t like. They get hurt and sick.
00:04:38:14 – 00:04:39:01
Agent Palmer
00:04:39:06 – 00:04:41:27
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s something.
00:04:41:32 – 00:05:04:09
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. It was, it was ahead of its time in many ways. You know, Star Trek up until that point had really been an anthology show. And then maybe once in a while you’d have it, you’d have a two parter. And Deep Space Nine was the first, you know, next generation. The characters evolved over the course of the series.
00:05:04:11 – 00:05:06:18
Agent Palmer
But but not this much.
00:05:06:23 – 00:05:31:46
Edward O’Hare
No, but. Well, what I’m saying, what I’m saying is. But but there was a progressive change. Okay. You could see in the characters as as the series developed and deep space Nine took that further and really, by the end of it, it was fully serialized. You know, it wasn’t an anthology show anymore. Well, and, last season.
00:05:31:51 – 00:05:38:57
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, well, those last ten episodes might as well just be one continuous thing.
00:05:38:57 – 00:05:41:18
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:05:41:23 – 00:06:11:45
Agent Palmer
I, I gotta say, though, like, I keep describing it as West Wing and Star Trek or Star Trek West Wing because it feels like the most succinct kind of thing. Like there are. I mean, it’s not just Democrats and Republicans, like there are lots of sides, but there are also politics, military, religion, philosophy, like it has all of those other things.
00:06:11:50 – 00:06:21:53
Edward O’Hare
Yes, yes. And the the war and religion parts are immediately two things that Roddenberry that would have bumped against Gene Roddenberry.
00:06:21:58 – 00:06:41:50
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but I believe I could be wrong, but I believe you and I talked about and I didn’t have as big a problem with it. But when we were talking about next gen, the series, we did talk about the like, sterility of the first two seasons.
00:06:41:55 – 00:06:42:33
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:06:42:44 – 00:06:43:56
Agent Palmer
And so.
00:06:44:01 – 00:06:44:43
Agent Palmer
00:06:44:48 – 00:06:58:07
Agent Palmer
If if he was going to push back on what they did with the remaining five seasons of next gen, this would have been vastly further in that direction.
00:06:58:12 – 00:07:10:46
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And also kind of Cisco’s approach, where we’re pretty much by like season five, he’s like, regulations be damned.
00:07:10:50 – 00:07:17:45
Agent Palmer
And, yeah. So I, I have a friend who talked about like, oh, have you gotten to Evil Cisco yet?
00:07:17:49 – 00:07:18:24
Agent Palmer
00:07:18:29 – 00:07:36:23
Agent Palmer
And, I don’t believe Cisco really goes full evil. Or even that it’s out of character for the character that they are creating in him, like, I think I think it just feels like a natural progression of sorts.
00:07:36:28 – 00:07:44:47
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s a natural progression, but also he’s put in tough situations that no other captain has put in.
00:07:44:51 – 00:08:01:05
Agent Palmer
Well, I think that’s where the religious kind of element, kind of dives in and goes, hey, we’d like to hang this around your neck for the entire series.
00:08:01:10 – 00:08:23:44
Edward O’Hare
But also, you know, as the Dominion War develops. Yeah, that that’s, you know, and, the kind of, I mean, really what this comes down to is in the pale moonlight, which is, which is, for my money, the best episode of the series. My father thinks it’s the best episode of Star Trek, period.
00:08:23:49 – 00:08:34:30
Agent Palmer
I mean, I, I didn’t call that out. I mean, look, Mike, it’s not going to come as a shock to anyone that our man Bashir was my favorite episode of the series.
00:08:34:31 – 00:08:42:56
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, but I, you know, I mean, that’s. Yeah, that’s the fun one. That’s like. That’s like The Trouble with Tribbles. Oh.
00:08:42:56 – 00:08:43:54
Agent Palmer
That’s right. You know.
00:08:43:59 – 00:08:45:14
Edward O’Hare
With Tribbles episode. If it’s.
00:08:45:18 – 00:09:22:47
Agent Palmer
And when they, like when they, seamlessly kind of tie in the old footage, like I’m, I’m thinking specifically of, like, they just take a scene from the original series and just. Yeah, digitally put Odo in the background at a table just sitting there waiting. But I will say the Dominion War as it progresses is a great example of what the downsides of exploration can be, which we really haven’t.
00:09:22:52 – 00:09:48:24
Agent Palmer
You know, the closest we get to like a true downside to exploration in next gen is, Q and the Borg and advancing that faster than it would have been, you know? Hey, now you’re a hundred million light years away from where you would have been. And I like the idea that, like, oh, no, there’s this whole other place on the other side of the wormhole that, like, you know nothing about.
00:09:48:36 – 00:10:20:10
Agent Palmer
And they have their own politics and they have their own, like, things. And, I will say in hindsight, I don’t know if it needed to be a war. That’s just kind of how they wrote it. I think it could have gone in many different ways. But the war was fun to see, and it was something. Look, I’ll be honest, I was very curious going in like, I’m going to be on a space station for seven seasons.
00:10:20:15 – 00:10:28:57
Agent Palmer
Like, obviously we weren’t. There’s a lot that happens off the station. The station very much still is the base.
00:10:29:02 – 00:10:46:11
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, well, it’s just instead of going out to find trouble, you stay right there and the trouble will find you on its own, you know? And that’s, especially, you know, being, you know, the hub for, between these two warring peoples.
00:10:46:14 – 00:11:10:43
Agent Palmer
Well, it’s, it’s also a I mean, this doesn’t come up a lot, although at the end it does with the Alamo references. But like the the, the space station itself is very much like a last outpost on the wild frontier. Like it feels very much, especially in the early seasons where it’s like we’re. Yeah, we still don’t know what’s out here.
00:11:10:45 – 00:11:21:20
Agent Palmer
Like, we know this station’s here, but we don’t know what’s out here. And we that kind of gets lost a bit when we start going through the wormhole exclusively.
00:11:21:25 – 00:11:22:05
Agent Palmer
00:11:22:10 – 00:11:24:53
Agent Palmer
Which we spend a lot of time going through the wormhole.
00:11:24:57 – 00:11:30:41
Edward O’Hare
You do, you do, you do. And you meet all kinds of different people.
00:11:30:46 – 00:11:47:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean the diversity is really good and not just among the cast like just in general. By the way, before I forget is more than just quarks. Norm is that is that basically is that is that. Yes. That’s it. Yes. That’s the bit. That’s the whole thing.
00:11:47:21 – 00:11:58:40
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. And he’s he’s a really lively guy. Never shuts up. Just he’s the life of the party, you know, everything.
00:11:58:45 – 00:12:35:42
Agent Palmer
I, I was, I was surprised that. And look I think if you don’t know what to expect and I didn’t I really knew I genuinely I knew nothing about this series going in like I just didn’t. There was that one next gen episode where they went to Deep Space Nine, which I feel like I should have rewatched. Now that I know all the things about Deep Space Nine, but for the most part, like, I wasn’t expecting Wallace Shawn to be like an actual recurring character.
00:12:35:47 – 00:12:40:56
Agent Palmer
You know, like, there are Iggy Pop makes an appearance.
00:12:41:01 – 00:12:42:10
Edward O’Hare
Sure.
00:12:42:15 – 00:12:48:51
Agent Palmer
Like, and he, and unlike Mick Fleetwood, you know, it’s Iggy Pop.
00:12:48:56 – 00:12:52:45
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yes.
00:12:52:50 – 00:13:19:38
Agent Palmer
But there’s some there’s some good stuff there. Now, you you have you have you’ve seen an advanced draft of of the, the post I wrote. Yeah. And, and and included in that are my, my two top ten character lists. Which I don’t know who suggested it. It may have been you, it may have been someone else, but like to do one halfway through and then see where it changes.
00:13:19:43 – 00:13:30:19
Agent Palmer
And it didn’t change that much. But you also got a full list of every episode I start. That I was like, oh, this is good. Yeah. And I know.
00:13:30:19 – 00:13:43:37
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. And I don’t it’s it’s funny because it’s the exact opposite of what I would have thought. Although you had a bunch of season six episodes, but there’s way too much of season one in here.
00:13:43:42 – 00:13:43:54
Agent Palmer
I.
00:13:44:05 – 00:14:06:17
Agent Palmer
I feel like I got a little too. Like a teacher that gives out in a a little too easy. I feel like season one, I was just so shocked by a lot of different things that I kept starring things, and then I pulled it back. And then it really isn’t until season six that I’m like, I kind of like whatever I see.
00:14:06:26 – 00:14:25:47
Agent Palmer
Look, the only reason I, I, I should say for everyone when I star an episode, it’s it’s either extremely impactful or it stands alone. I tend to stay away from starring two and three parters. That’s just okay. I just kind of do.
00:14:25:51 – 00:14:34:37
Edward O’Hare
Well, that that does explain a lot, because there’s a lot of because there’s a lot of season finales that I’m shocked weren’t on here.
00:14:34:42 – 00:14:49:13
Agent Palmer
And I mean, yeah, I don’t know. I will say, I don’t know if you did this on purpose or not, but you hid the baseball elements from me.
00:14:49:18 – 00:14:50:04
Edward O’Hare
Oh, well, yeah.
00:14:50:04 – 00:14:58:30
Agent Palmer
And that was very exciting to follow along with.
00:14:58:35 – 00:15:06:51
Agent Palmer
And I it just. Yeah, I don’t know. There’s I don’t know, you. Look, ask me a question. You’ve seen the stuff like what? Yeah.
00:15:06:51 – 00:15:32:35
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. I mean from. From what for what I’m saying. Because like, like the first season, there’s some stuff that that feels like, okay, this is character development. You know, they’re trying to get to know the characters. Thankfully, you didn’t put move along home, because then we would have had a really, on this list because then we would have had a really big discussion.
00:15:32:40 – 00:15:36:05
Edward O’Hare
That home, Alan rain.
00:15:36:10 – 00:15:37:33
Agent Palmer
Oh, yeah.
00:15:37:33 – 00:15:38:46
Agent Palmer
Okay. Yeah.
00:15:38:57 – 00:15:43:19
Edward O’Hare
That is that is the that is like the worst episode of Star Trek.
00:15:43:23 – 00:16:21:24
Agent Palmer
Now over. I will say I didn’t I didn’t need a break with this series. Yeah. I mean and look, I don’t I still don’t blame NexGen for the break. I think it’s just at a certain point, like you need a break. I think that’s everything that for some reason, I don’t know, it was just vastly different or just there was so much, I think maybe the ones that the, the actual ensemble nature of it where it’s like, okay, you’re going to you’ll never get sick of any one person.
00:16:21:29 – 00:16:24:44
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Because we’re just going to go all over the place.
00:16:24:48 – 00:16:52:08
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. I mean, to me, the first season is kind of sluggish. And then the back to back of duet, which to me is like just as a piece of television. Like you could do that as a stage play. Oh, yeah. With, with without any of the makeup, you know, and just just make it as if it’s a war or war refugee story.
00:16:52:08 – 00:17:03:48
Edward O’Hare
And it would be, and it would be just as impactful, and and just great, great, excellent writing and incredible acting in that episode.
00:17:03:48 – 00:17:23:44
Agent Palmer
And I think there are actually a few episodes specifically where they go, we’re going to put these two characters together, and it’s basically just going to be them eating the scenery. And we’re not. And you don’t, you can just do this. Yeah. As a two man play if you want.
00:17:23:49 – 00:18:00:23
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah. But to where to me is the is the is the best example of that. And and then you know, season one was in the hands of the prophets. And that to me is where the show decides, okay, this is what we’re going to be. This is, you know, you know, there are a couple of main pillars, but that that is going to be, what happens when a secular society is in charge of protecting a highly religious one?
00:18:00:28 – 00:18:06:55
Edward O’Hare
And how do you, how do you navigate those waters?
00:18:07:00 – 00:18:21:15
Agent Palmer
Well, and I think it goes to what they end up doing down the road as far as, what happens when.
00:18:21:20 – 00:18:25:02
Agent Palmer
A religious organization maybe overreaches for power.
00:18:25:06 – 00:18:26:57
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:27:01 – 00:18:36:14
Agent Palmer
But the the nuance that this show handles the Bajoran religion.
00:18:36:19 – 00:18:53:46
Agent Palmer
As far as trying to make it a well-rounded one with acolytes and nonbelievers and everyone in between. It’s something I don’t think I’ve seen outside of just, you know, you’re believers and you’re nonbelievers.
00:18:53:51 – 00:19:11:20
Edward O’Hare
What? And and also with the, the three parter that open season two really shows is that, you know, for a lot of people, for the people in power, a lot of people just use that as a tool for politics.
00:19:11:25 – 00:19:19:27
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. Just like, was it he ends up being Count Dooku, right?
00:19:19:32 – 00:19:24:36
Edward O’Hare
No, no, no, it wasn’t Christopher Lee. It was Frank Langella. Oh, sorry.
00:19:24:41 – 00:19:27:38
Agent Palmer
Sorry.
00:19:27:43 – 00:19:32:05
Edward O’Hare
Who was Skeletor? In case you’re keeping track.
00:19:32:05 – 00:19:33:33
Agent Palmer
Apologies.
00:19:33:38 – 00:19:34:13
Agent Palmer
Apology.
00:19:34:26 – 00:19:42:55
Agent Palmer
But he does corrupt, ascetic. For the rest of the series.
00:19:43:00 – 00:20:04:37
Agent Palmer
Which is, you know, kind of unique. I, I will say, though. Because a lot of the stuff outside of the war and the religion is all character driven. Yeah. So were you surprised by my list at all? Yeah. Was either the first one or the second one.
00:20:04:42 – 00:20:08:25
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Some, Oh, for the for the characters.
00:20:08:25 – 00:20:09:19
Agent Palmer
Yes.
00:20:09:24 – 00:20:22:18
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. I mean, just because to me, the, you know, for most of the first half of the series, I do not think of Bashir as a likable character.
00:20:22:23 – 00:20:23:26
Agent Palmer
00:20:23:31 – 00:20:25:10
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I just, I.
00:20:25:10 – 00:20:40:38
Edward O’Hare
He’s he’s an intriguing one, you know, and, and, especially a lot of the way he speaks to women in those first two seasons is, does not age well.
00:20:40:40 – 00:20:45:27
Agent Palmer
No, no, it doesn’t. But then again, there’s a well, there’s a lot of things that either age.
00:20:45:35 – 00:20:46:11
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:20:46:16 – 00:20:53:44
Agent Palmer
There’s some stuff in this show that doesn’t age well and there’s a lot of it. There’s some of it that age is like fine wine, but not for the right reasons.
00:20:53:49 – 00:21:03:05
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Like I would have, To me, Bashir doesn’t get interesting until you find out he’s an augment.
00:21:03:10 – 00:21:06:03
Agent Palmer
Okay. All right.
00:21:06:08 – 00:21:19:52
Edward O’Hare
And then that said, then you realize everything that he’s had to kind of compensate in his head. You know, and especially when he meets the other OG, that other group of augments.
00:21:19:57 – 00:21:51:25
Agent Palmer
Now, in fairness, I did wait until after our man Bashir, to make the list. And he’s had the friendship with O’Brien and the Yasay friendship with Garrick, or whatever you want to call, whatever that that is. But I’m. I’m so Ferengi heavy in my top ten both times.
00:21:51:25 – 00:22:01:50
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And rom is fun. ROM is fun to be. Odo. And quark is one of the great duos.
00:22:01:55 – 00:22:25:41
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but that’s. So when you talk about, duet, I immediately think of in that same vein, when Quark and Odo get stuck on the planet, right? Like, oh, yeah, and they. Yeah, that’s the thing about this show is they have so many characters they can do that with, and that they did do that with, like, I, I feel like they didn’t leave a stone unturned.
00:22:25:41 – 00:22:41:45
Agent Palmer
I think at some point somebody was like, hey, maybe we should put these two or the like. They were just throwing ideas around and somebody wrote all the different possibilities of people who could get stranded with him. By the end of the series, that’s happened in some fashion or another.
00:22:41:50 – 00:22:44:41
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:44:46 – 00:23:01:38
Agent Palmer
I’ll be honest. Kira is the one I. I could take early. I she’s important to the plot. A lot of the time. But, Kira, I didn’t grow on me from the beginning. And then I ended up displacing her from ninth, from 10th to off the list because Worf got added.
00:23:01:38 – 00:23:27:04
Edward O’Hare
I mean, you know, but like, some of the some of that, I, you know, I mean, with these characters, some of that I don’t think is fair just because, you know, to me, Kira and Sisko, they’re your anchors, you know, you I don’t expect them to have the. You know, their arcs are not going to be as winding and animated as as a supporting character can be.
00:23:27:09 – 00:23:29:46
Edward O’Hare
You know, they’ve, you know.
00:23:29:51 – 00:23:54:33
Agent Palmer
Well, so that that brings up an interesting point, because I wanted to ask you this. I had trouble trying to figure out, like, there were obviously people I left off my list that might have cracked the top ten, but I felt like they were not, main character enough. Like, like, for example, the actual Naga sac.
00:23:54:38 – 00:23:58:50
Agent Palmer
Great character, not top ten material because it just doesn’t appear, you know, but
00:23:58:55 – 00:24:02:13
Edward O’Hare
But like, yeah, it put to make a separate list of recurring characters, but.
00:24:02:13 – 00:24:13:39
Agent Palmer
That well, that was going to be my question because is Rama main character is Garrick a main character like when, when when these characters. I mean, first of all, as somebody who just watched it.
00:24:13:41 – 00:24:17:24
Edward O’Hare
Well, I think by the end of the series they’re they’re regulars.
00:24:17:30 – 00:24:38:51
Agent Palmer
Okay. Because I was going to say Garrick, specifically Garrick and Gold ducat both get also starring every time they’re on. They’re never in the main credits. So you always know they’re going to be in the episode that gets kind of spoiled a bit. If you watch the credits.
00:24:38:55 – 00:24:41:04
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:24:41:08 – 00:24:53:11
Agent Palmer
And I would have expected them to kind of make it in because they’re at the very least Garrick is on the station. He felt like he should have been in more. I mean, he was in a lot. Well, yeah.
00:24:53:11 – 00:25:05:36
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of that is also it has nothing to, you know, it has to do with we, we signed him for, for this number of episodes. So that’s how many you’re going to write him into. So,
00:25:05:41 – 00:25:17:27
Agent Palmer
All right, so I can ask you this now, obviously you’ve watched everything after this, but up to this point is Gold Duke not the best villain?
00:25:17:32 – 00:25:19:41
Edward O’Hare
To cut the best villain.
00:25:19:41 – 00:25:31:32
Agent Palmer
Like he seems, first of all, he might be at this point. Okay, for those following along. Original series. Animated series, original series, movies, next gen and next gen movies.
00:25:31:37 – 00:25:32:07
Edward O’Hare
At this.
00:25:32:07 – 00:25:37:42
Agent Palmer
Point, he’s the most well-rounded villain of all of.
00:25:37:47 – 00:25:38:49
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:25:38:54 – 00:25:43:15
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if that makes him the best, but he is the most well-rounded at this point.
00:25:43:20 – 00:26:04:13
Edward O’Hare
I don’t know, I don’t know, I mean, he certainly, you know, in terms of individual characters, probably. But, to me, the, the Borg loom so large that I really can’t see anything being being more terrifying.
00:26:04:18 – 00:26:12:53
Agent Palmer
I mean, I guess the I mean, there would be an argument for the GM hard-r being true. They tried to portray them as that.
00:26:12:53 – 00:26:13:36
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:26:13:41 – 00:26:15:14
Agent Palmer
Scary.
00:26:15:18 – 00:26:17:55
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:26:18:00 – 00:26:29:20
Agent Palmer
I’m glad they did episodes to kind of pull back the curtain and ridiculously as it sounds, humanize these bred for war warriors a bit.
00:26:29:20 – 00:26:38:02
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who who are basically, you know, born drug addicts. Yes. Yeah. It’s,
00:26:38:07 – 00:26:43:15
Agent Palmer
I don’t know, I there there was a lot in this series that just.
00:26:43:20 – 00:26:43:43
Agent Palmer
00:26:43:52 – 00:26:45:24
Agent Palmer
00:26:45:29 – 00:26:52:19
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Well, look at this. This one. The character I’m surprised is in here is Jadzia Dax. Because to me.
00:26:52:32 – 00:27:21:01
Agent Palmer
Dax was higher in the first list. But I, I think that I in hindsight, because it’s been a bit since I wrote this, I think it is Bashir and Cisco’s movement that really changes things like Bashir is kind of one of the reasons that I think O’Brien jumps Dax for me because I think their relationship.
00:27:21:05 – 00:27:22:18
Agent Palmer
00:27:22:23 – 00:27:48:10
Agent Palmer
Bring some things and Cisco grew on me in the final three seasons. In a way that I wasn’t expecting. Which is why Dax ended up falling as she did. I think quark probably might have one of the better like runs of the whole series.
00:27:48:15 – 00:27:48:27
Agent Palmer
00:27:48:27 – 00:27:53:35
Agent Palmer
Because he gets to stay the same, but he moves slightly.
00:27:53:40 – 00:28:19:45
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s all you need from him? Yeah. Now, now, just just kind of like, talk to me. Like, as the series developed, you know, in season two, you had the Marky show back up. It which gives a little bit more context to the what they were talking about at the very end of, of the last season of next gen, you see, you know, Anson Rowe is is sent to infiltrate the Maki.
00:28:19:45 – 00:28:41:17
Edward O’Hare
Yes. And then, as you learn more about the Dominion, you had team the Cardassian who turns out to be Eric’s father talk to me about, what? You were thinking of the Dominion as you were learning about them and seeing characters, like, were you in the gym and, and everything sort of come to the forefront.
00:28:41:19 – 00:29:35:45
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I think it became so, so originally they very much make the Dominion out to be even as you learn that it’s the gym leader and it’s the founders, they very much use the phrase the Dominion in a way to make it kind of rival the Borg in a bit like it’s supposed to be that scary. But every time they humanized the, the, the Borg or every time where you turn as the mouthpiece of the founders kind of has a sense of humor or, you know, there are these, like cracks in the armor of like, oh, they’re not that like the they might be a formidable opponent, but they’re not that scary.
00:29:35:48 – 00:30:10:46
Agent Palmer
Do you know what I mean? And so towards the, I don’t know, latter part of the series, maybe five, six, seven, I’m thinking more in terms of how are they going to defeat them. Not when just because at every step, even when there’s like, you know, two steps forward, four steps back for the Federation, it always feels like they’re just biding their time for whatever’s going to happen that’s going to allow them to win anything.
00:30:10:50 – 00:30:49:07
Agent Palmer
I’m not saying I’m not saying it was inevitable, because at a certain point within Deep Space Nine, the series, you feel like, well, maybe they will just lose. Like there’s a moment where like the it, the the winning isn’t just inevitable for the good guys, but every time we had some of those interactions, it just felt like they were it was just an amazing, impenetrable wall that just every time we we dug a little bit deeper, there was another crack and it was just like, it’s only a matter of time.
00:30:49:12 – 00:31:10:04
Agent Palmer
And I think they set that up as a slow play very well. But like, that’s the way it felt. It felt like, all right, here’s this thing though. Never going to beat. And then we learned a little bit about the drug addiction and how the jam had came to be. And you go up, there’s a crack that could be, you know, like and then and where you and dies and comes back as a clone but not as good.
00:31:10:18 – 00:31:37:37
Agent Palmer
And you’re like, wow, there’s a crack. And then, you know, eventually the founders get sick and you’re like, all right, well, there’s the show. It’s like all these things. And yet they maintain their dominance almost until the very end, which is kind of exciting because it means that those last ten episodes have just war. Yeah. Or not just, well, I’m sure they’ll win eventually.
00:31:37:42 – 00:32:04:10
Agent Palmer
But the Dominion, it felt like the first time they’re introduced. Almost like the marquee where, like when they’re just talked about and you don’t see them on screen, they’re much scarier. And every time you put them on screen, every time you have an episode going into their leadership, it lessens the fear a bit.
00:32:04:15 – 00:32:06:03
Edward O’Hare
It’s a shark in jaws, I gotcha.
00:32:06:08 – 00:32:07:31
Agent Palmer
Yeah okay. Yeah.
00:32:07:38 – 00:32:18:12
Edward O’Hare
Okay. Yeah. Because I because I’m trying to think like, The Adversary, which is the season three finale, which is basically deep space nines take on the thing.
00:32:18:16 – 00:32:19:36
Agent Palmer
Yes.
00:32:19:41 – 00:32:24:49
Edward O’Hare
That, you know, that changeling and seeing on board and seeing the paranoia and everything develop.
00:32:24:54 – 00:33:00:31
Agent Palmer
Well, I will say taking the fight to earth, really? That was that was kind of amazing, if I’m honest, because it’s just it’s not something you expect. Like, even in Next-Gen They talked about Earth. And they went to Earth once or twice, but like, and not counting the movies. But Earth was always like the home base that was also far away.
00:33:00:35 – 00:33:09:01
Agent Palmer
And all of a sudden. Oh, oh. Oh, they’re they’re fighting like they just did. They just bomb San Francisco, like.
00:33:09:06 – 00:33:31:46
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Or even or even like earlier in that two parter where Cisco goes home, you know, and basically by the end of it, you know, the one admiral is telling him, hey, we’re here, and there’s no way you could find us. You no way you could detect us. Yeah. That with that, I remember, you know, I was like.
00:33:31:51 – 00:33:37:06
Edward O’Hare
Nine when that happened. That was. That was pretty scary for.
00:33:37:11 – 00:33:42:25
Agent Palmer
I mean, that I mean, that’s the point of the Changeling. So that’s the thing that makes.
00:33:42:29 – 00:33:42:49
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:33:42:53 – 00:33:47:28
Agent Palmer
The other changeling scary by comparison to Otto, who’s like.
00:33:47:40 – 00:33:49:25
Edward O’Hare
Yes, I’m.
00:33:49:30 – 00:33:50:46
Agent Palmer
I’m your friend.
00:33:50:51 – 00:34:25:41
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Okay. So real quick, each series, you know, each of the 90s tracks has an inflection point that’s usually, starts in season four. For next gen. It was the best of both worlds two parter. Okay. And and kind of, you know, the way Picard changed after being, like, cutis. In Deep Space Nine, it’s Worf.
00:34:25:46 – 00:34:34:35
Edward O’Hare
When Worf arrives. Yeah. So. Okay, so how did how did what what did you feel like when he showed up? And how do you think his entrance affected the series?
00:34:34:40 – 00:35:10:00
Agent Palmer
So I will first say, I don’t know how much we covered it during the next gen episode that you and I did. But I did complain through next Gen quite a bit. Oh, crap. Oh, no. Here’s another Klingon episode. That was my thought during next Gen, right? So when Worf shows up on Deep Space Nine, which, by the way, I knew about, like, because I had just because of the way the watch has happened for me, I had seen, Picard.
00:35:10:00 – 00:35:17:51
Agent Palmer
Welcome Worf back on the enterprise. I’m glad we could let you go from Deep Space Nine. You know, I so I knew that was coming.
00:35:17:56 – 00:35:37:51
Edward O’Hare
The the best is, Star Trek first contact when, Worf is commanding the defiant, and and he gets on and and Riker turns to him. Tough little ship. And, of course, little.
00:35:37:56 – 00:35:39:48
Agent Palmer
But.
00:35:39:53 – 00:35:58:50
Agent Palmer
The change in me was that I started to appreciate the Klingon stuff more after Worf showed up in Deep Space Nine, and I’m not sure that’s Worf related. I think it might be more martock related.
00:35:58:55 – 00:36:02:27
Edward O’Hare
Oh, I was going to say, Jadzia with blood oath.
00:36:02:29 – 00:36:32:08
Agent Palmer
No, no, I I think that Martock is, my. He may be my favorite Klingon right now, and I think that’s just because Worf is a stick in the mud. And as much as he and Jadzia can maybe play off each other a bit in that way. Yeah, like who goes to rise? And turns off the weather, right?
00:36:32:13 – 00:37:04:41
Agent Palmer
For us, that’s. Yeah. Fair enough. Right. Like I’m not, but he, you know, but he and he’s. And Worf is one of those characters that kind of annoying in that he’s traditionalist, but only up to a point. But he gets to determine what that point is, and it changes based on the situation. Whether it be for the Federation, for his wife, for his family, or for his friends depends on just how traditional he is willing to be.
00:37:04:45 – 00:37:35:38
Agent Palmer
Right? I a fair enough, but martock, I don’t know. There’s just something about the UN willing participant where everything he survives, he’s a survivor and everything happens to him. And I’m not just talking about the end. We’re like powers thrust upon him, like, just the whole way. He doesn’t want to be an ambassador. He doesn’t want to, like, help do this stuff within politics and sit in meetings with Sisko.
00:37:35:43 – 00:38:01:34
Agent Palmer
And and I think it was just martock was the what? He very much was the Klingon. I needed to appreciate Klingons much more so than Worf, but to answer your question, we don’t get that much with more talk without Worf. Like, I think they wrote in a lot more of the Klingon stuff because they had Worf as an available character.
00:38:01:38 – 00:38:07:25
Agent Palmer
And so I think it it opens all of those other doors.
00:38:07:30 – 00:38:08:18
Agent Palmer
00:38:08:23 – 00:38:21:29
Agent Palmer
That I, I think I’d still be like, Worf, you know, if it hadn’t been for characters like Martock and maybe to an extent, Dax as well.
00:38:21:34 – 00:38:35:05
Edward O’Hare
Well, you could think Rainaldi more, who handled most of the Klingon mythology on next gen AMD and Deep Space Nine. And it did. It did round out the series, well, it helps.
00:38:35:16 – 00:39:01:33
Agent Palmer
Because you all right? This is going to sound weird because we’re talking about humans. Bajoran, Cardassian, Ferengi. Like, there’s not, like, and then all the Dominion stuff, like we didn’t need the Klingons in addition. But we end up getting the Klingons. And then, by extension, we end up with the Romulans at a certain point. And even some Vulcans, like.
00:39:01:35 – 00:39:29:15
Agent Palmer
I feel like it just helped add to it, because if you don’t add the Klingons in, it’s very much, like there’s the Kardashians, there’s the pigeons, there’s your, you know, if you want, you know, left and right. And then. Previously on Agent palmer.com, the Monster Book of Zombies reanimates a horror trope. Palmer’s Trek continues with Star Trek Deep Space Nine, and since last episode, Alissa has released more content on her channel.
00:39:29:16 – 00:39:55:52
Agent Palmer
Go check it out. This is The Palmer Files episode 145, featuring the return of Edward O’Hare, who has been my guide through my Star Trek journey, and we’re going to reflect on my adventures on Deep Space Nine before I embark upon the next voyage. Are you ready? Let’s boldly go.
00:39:55:57 – 00:40:15:30
Agent Palmer
Palmer’s trek the final frontier. These are my voyages on a continuing mission to explore Star Trek, to seek out television series and movies, to boldly go where many fans have gone before.
00:40:15:35 – 00:40:41:34
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Star, also known as AJ Palmer. And on this 145th episode is Edward O’Hare, a friend and returning guest who’s here to help guide me as I continue to traverse the television and movies of one of his most beloved pillars of fandom, Star Trek. During this episode, we will discuss Star Trek Deep Space Nine and my experience watching the series plus and will prepare me for my next series, Star Trek Voyager.
00:40:41:39 – 00:41:02:37
Agent Palmer
So that’s what you’re in for. But for those of you who have not been following along on the blog, why is any of this happening at all? That’s a good question. But the most honest answer is simply why not? So let’s talk about Star Trek. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all contact information for Ed and myself in the show notes.
00:41:02:41 – 00:41:24:20
Agent Palmer
You can find more information about my guest Ed by checking out his contributions to Wicked Theory at Wicked theory.com. Don’t forget, you can see all of my ratings and ratings on Agent palmer.com, including and specifically Jim palmer.com/star Trek, which will take you to all of the Palmer’s Trek series posts about Star Trek. I’ve written so far. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com.
00:41:24:34 – 00:41:30:58
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s boldly go.
00:41:31:02 – 00:41:52:38
Agent Palmer
And I watched all of Deep Space 901 play every episode. Did enjoy it. I, I really did good, good, I really did. I think, I think I think it goes, I think it’s three for me.
00:41:52:43 – 00:41:53:10
Edward O’Hare
Really.
00:41:53:10 – 00:42:21:47
Agent Palmer
Okay. Yeah. Behind the two original series series. Okay. I still I still have a soft spot for the animated series, but like, it’s it’s toss to us animated. And then I think it goes deep Space nine before the cinematic stuff before TNG, I, I, I know there’s still a lot to come, but at the moment TNG goes, I mean, Deep Space Nine top three immediately.
00:42:21:52 – 00:42:26:58
Edward O’Hare
Okay, okay. It is a very polarizing series. What is,
00:42:27:03 – 00:42:29:01
Agent Palmer
Deep Space Nine?
00:42:29:06 – 00:42:46:02
Edward O’Hare
Well, I feel like there there were a lot of people who were like, very like this doesn’t jive with Roddenberry vision. And there there are a lot of people who think it’s too dark. It’s, Oh, it’s.
00:42:46:02 – 00:43:06:12
Agent Palmer
So I will say. And I have my notebook handy. Yeah, just in case. But there was at least once, at least once. And this is saying a lot for this show. There’s at least once where there was an episode, I think it may be twice there were at least once, but probably twice or three times where I wrote in my notes.
00:43:06:17 – 00:43:36:09
Agent Palmer
This feels like a Mash episode, and not one of the funny ones, right? Like there are, there are, and I don’t I don’t mean to say that as in, yeah, it validates it being dark, but I think it does take it in a place where, like, I, I don’t know, I, I would argue anybody who says that this is too dark, I would argue that the rest of it may have been too clean.
00:43:36:14 – 00:43:56:26
Agent Palmer
You know what I mean? Like, there’s because there’s a part of this series as you’re watching it that’s very much like, oh, like people die and not just disappear like in the original series, you know, just get phased. Didn’t disappear like people don’t like. They get hurt and sick.
00:43:56:31 – 00:43:57:20
Agent Palmer
00:43:57:25 – 00:43:59:44
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s something.
00:43:59:49 – 00:44:22:26
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. It was, it was ahead of its time in many ways. You know, Star Trek up until that point had really been an anthology show. And then maybe once in a while you’d have it, you’d have a two parter. And Deep Space Nine was the first, you know, next generation. The characters evolved over the course of the series.
00:44:22:30 – 00:44:24:36
Agent Palmer
But but not this much.
00:44:24:41 – 00:44:50:05
Edward O’Hare
No, but. Well, what I’m saying, what I’m saying is. But but there was a progressive change you could see in the characters as as the series developed and Deep Space Nine took that further and really, by the end of it, it was fully serialized. You know, it wasn’t an anthology show anymore. Well, and, that last season.
00:44:50:10 – 00:44:57:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, well, those last ten episodes might as well just be one continuous thing.
00:44:57:16 – 00:44:59:37
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:44:59:42 – 00:45:30:04
Agent Palmer
I, I gotta say, though, like, I keep describing it as West Wing and Star Trek or Star Trek West Wing because it feels like the most succinct kind of thing. Like there are. I mean, it’s not just Democrats and Republicans, like there are lots of sides, but there are also politics, military, religion, philosophy, like it has all of those other things.
00:45:30:08 – 00:45:40:10
Edward O’Hare
Yes, yes. And the the war and religion parts are immediately two things that Roddenberry that would have bumped against Gene Roddenberry.
00:45:40:14 – 00:46:00:07
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but I believe I could be wrong, but I believe you and I talked about and I didn’t have as big a problem with it. But when we were talking about next gen, the series, we did talk about the like, sterility of the first two seasons.
00:46:00:12 – 00:46:00:52
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:46:01:01 – 00:46:02:13
Agent Palmer
And so.
00:46:02:18 – 00:46:03:00
Agent Palmer
00:46:03:05 – 00:46:16:26
Agent Palmer
If if he was going to push back on what they did with the remaining five seasons of next gen, this would have been vastly further in that direction.
00:46:16:30 – 00:46:30:41
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And also kind of Cisco’s approach, where we’re pretty much by like season five, he’s like, regulations be damned. And, yeah.
00:46:30:41 – 00:46:36:03
Agent Palmer
So I, I have a friend who talked about like, oh, have you gotten to Evil Cisco yet?
00:46:36:08 – 00:46:36:41
Agent Palmer
00:46:36:46 – 00:46:54:40
Agent Palmer
And, I don’t believe Cisco really goes full evil. Or even that it’s out of character for the character that they are creating in him. Like, I think I think it just feels like a natural progression of sorts.
00:46:54:45 – 00:47:03:05
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there’s a natural progression, but also he’s put in tough situations that no other captain is put in.
00:47:03:10 – 00:47:19:24
Agent Palmer
Well, I think that’s where the religious kind of element, kind of dives in and goes, hey, we’d like to hang this around your neck for the entire series.
00:47:19:28 – 00:47:42:03
Edward O’Hare
But also, you know, as the Dominion War develops. Yeah, that that’s, you know, and, the kind of, I mean, really what this comes down to is in the pale moonlight, which is, which is, for my money, the best episode of the series. My father thinks it’s the best episode of Star Trek, period.
00:47:42:08 – 00:47:52:46
Agent Palmer
I mean, I, I didn’t call that out. I mean, look, my, it’s not going to come as a shock to anyone that our man Bashir was my favorite episode of the season.
00:47:52:48 – 00:48:00:36
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, but I, you know, I mean, that’s. Yeah, that’s the fun one. That’s like. That’s like The Trouble with Tribbles.
00:48:00:41 – 00:48:03:07
Agent Palmer
Oh. That’s right. You know what Tribbles episode.
00:48:03:07 – 00:48:03:37
Edward O’Hare
If it’s someone.
00:48:03:37 – 00:48:41:04
Agent Palmer
And when they, like, when they, seamlessly kind of tie in the old footage, like, I’m, I’m thinking specifically of, like, they just take a scene from the original series and just. Yeah, digitally put Odo in the background at a table just sitting there waiting. But I will say the Dominion War as it progresses is a great example of what the downsides of exploration can be, which we really haven’t.
00:48:41:08 – 00:49:06:40
Agent Palmer
You know, the closest we get to like a true downside to exploration in next gen is, Q and the Borg and advancing that faster than it would have been, you know? Hey, now you’re a hundred million light years away from where you would have been. And I like the idea that, like, oh, no, there’s this whole other place on the other side of the wormhole that, like, you know nothing about.
00:49:06:55 – 00:49:38:29
Agent Palmer
And they have their own politics and they have their own, like, things. And, I will say in hindsight, I don’t know if it needed to be a war. That’s just kind of how they wrote it. I think it could have gone in many different ways, but the war was fun to see, and it was something. Look, I’ll be honest, I was very curious going in like, I’m going to be on a space station for seven seasons.
00:49:38:34 – 00:49:47:14
Agent Palmer
Like. Yeah, obviously we weren’t. There’s a lot that happens off the station. The station very much still is the base.
00:49:47:19 – 00:50:04:29
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, well, it’s just instead of going out to find trouble, you stay right there and the trouble will find you on its own, you know? And that’s, especially, you know, being, you know, the hub for, between these two warring peoples.
00:50:04:33 – 00:50:29:02
Agent Palmer
Well, it’s, it’s also a I mean, this doesn’t come up a lot, although at the end it does with the Alamo references. But like the the, the space station itself is very much like a last outpost on the wild frontier. Like, it feels very much, especially in the early seasons where it’s like we’re. Yeah, we still don’t know what’s out here.
00:50:29:04 – 00:50:39:37
Agent Palmer
Like, we know this station’s here, but we don’t know what what’s out here. And we that kind of gets lost a bit when we start going through the wormhole exclusively.
00:50:39:42 – 00:50:40:24
Agent Palmer
00:50:40:29 – 00:50:43:11
Agent Palmer
Which we spend a lot of time going through the wormhole.
00:50:43:16 – 00:50:49:00
Edward O’Hare
You do, you do, you do. And you meet all kinds of different people.
00:50:49:05 – 00:51:02:14
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean the diversity is really good and not just among the cast like just in general. By the way, before I forget is more than just quarks. Norm is that is that basically is that is that.
00:51:02:16 – 00:51:02:37
Edward O’Hare
Yes.
00:51:02:38 – 00:51:05:35
Agent Palmer
That’s it. Yeah. That’s the bit. That’s the whole thing.
00:51:05:39 – 00:51:16:46
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. And he’s he’s a really lively guy. Never shuts up. Just he’s the life of the party, you know, everything.
00:51:16:51 – 00:51:54:00
Agent Palmer
I, I was I was surprised that. And look I think if you don’t know what to expect and I didn’t I really knew I genuinely I knew nothing about this series going in like I just didn’t. There was that one next gen episode where they went to Deep Space Nine, which I feel like I should have rewatched. Now that I know all the things about Deep Space Nine, but for the most part, like, I wasn’t expecting Wallace Shawn to be like an actual recurring character.
00:51:54:05 – 00:51:59:15
Agent Palmer
You know, like, there are Iggy Pop makes an appearance.
00:51:59:20 – 00:52:00:29
Edward O’Hare
Sure.
00:52:00:34 – 00:52:07:10
Agent Palmer
Like, and he, and unlike Mick Fleetwood, you know, it’s Iggy Pop.
00:52:07:15 – 00:52:11:02
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yes.
00:52:11:07 – 00:52:37:57
Agent Palmer
But there’s some there’s some good stuff there. Now, you you have you have you’ve seen an advanced draft of of the post I wrote. Yeah. And, and and included in that are my, my two top ten character lists. Which I don’t know who suggested it. It may have been you. It may have been someone else, but like to do one halfway through and then see where it changes.
00:52:38:01 – 00:52:48:38
Agent Palmer
And it didn’t change that much. But you also got a full list of every episode I start. That I was like, oh, this is good. Yeah. And I know.
00:52:48:38 – 00:53:01:43
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. And I don’t it’s it’s funny because it’s the exact opposite of what I would have thought. Although you had a bunch of season six episodes, but there’s way too much of season one in here.
00:53:01:48 – 00:53:02:09
Agent Palmer
I.
00:53:02:14 – 00:53:36:33
Agent Palmer
I, I feel like I got a little too, like a teacher that gives out in a a little too easy. I feel like season one, I was just so shocked by a lot of different things that I kept starring things. And then I pulled it back. And then it really isn’t until season six that I’m like, I kind of like whatever and see, look, the only reason I, I, I should say for everyone when I star an episode, it’s, it’s either extremely impactful or it stands alone.
00:53:36:35 – 00:53:44:05
Agent Palmer
I tend to stay away from starring two and three parters. That’s just okay. I just kind of do.
00:53:44:10 – 00:53:52:54
Edward O’Hare
Well, that that does explain a lot, because there’s a lot of, there’s there’s a lot of season finales that I’m shocked weren’t on here.
00:53:52:59 – 00:54:07:31
Agent Palmer
And I mean, yeah, I don’t know. I will say, I don’t know if you did this on purpose or not, but you hid the baseball elements from me.
00:54:07:36 – 00:54:08:23
Edward O’Hare
Oh, well, yeah.
00:54:08:23 – 00:54:16:47
Agent Palmer
And that was very exciting to follow along with.
00:54:16:52 – 00:54:24:40
Agent Palmer
And, I it just. Yeah, I don’t know. There’s I don’t know, you look, ask me a question. You’ve seen the stuff. Like what?
00:54:24:41 – 00:54:50:53
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Yeah. I mean from from what? To for what I’m saying. Because like, like the first season, there’s some stuff that that feels like, okay, this is character development. You know, they’re trying to get to know the characters. Thankfully, you didn’t put move along home, because then we would have had a really, on this list because then we would have had a really big discussion.
00:54:50:58 – 00:54:54:18
Edward O’Hare
That, Alan Moran took.
00:54:54:27 – 00:54:56:37
Agent Palmer
Oh, yeah. Okay.
00:54:56:42 – 00:54:57:05
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:54:57:16 – 00:55:01:35
Edward O’Hare
That is that is the that is like the worst episode of Star Trek.
00:55:01:40 – 00:55:39:43
Agent Palmer
Now over. I will say I didn’t I didn’t need a break with this series. Yeah. I mean and and look, I don’t I still don’t blame Gen for the break. I think it’s just at a certain point, like you need a break. I think that’s everything. For some reason, I don’t know, it was just vastly different or just there was so much, I think maybe the ones that the, the actual ensemble nature of it where it’s like, okay, you’re going to you’ll never get sick of any one person.
00:55:39:48 – 00:55:43:02
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Because we’re just going to go all over the place.
00:55:43:07 – 00:56:10:25
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. I mean, to me, the first season is kind of sluggish. And then the back to back of, duet, which to me is like just is a piece of television. Like, you could do that as a stage play. Oh, yeah. With, with without any of the makeup, you know, and just just make it as if it’s a war or war refugee story.
00:56:10:25 – 00:56:22:50
Edward O’Hare
And it would be, and it would be just as impactful, and and just great, great, excellent writing and incredible acting in that episode. And then I think.
00:56:22:50 – 00:56:42:03
Agent Palmer
There are actually a few episodes specifically where they go, we’re going to put these two characters together, and it’s basically just going to be them eating the scenery. And we’re not. And you don’t, you can just do this. Yeah. As a two man play if you want.
00:56:42:08 – 00:57:18:40
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah. But duet to me is that is the is the best example of that. And and then you end season one was in the hands of the prophets. And that to me is where the show decides, okay, this is what we’re going to be. This is, you know, you know, there are a couple of main pillars, but that that is going to be, what happens when a secular society is in charge of protecting a highly religious one?
00:57:18:45 – 00:57:25:14
Edward O’Hare
And, and how do you, how do you navigate those waters?
00:57:25:19 – 00:57:39:34
Agent Palmer
Well, and I think it goes to what they end up doing down the road as far as, what happens when.
00:57:39:39 – 00:57:43:19
Agent Palmer
A religious organization maybe overreaches for power.
00:57:43:23 – 00:57:45:15
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:57:45:20 – 00:58:12:05
Agent Palmer
But the the nuance that this show handles the Bajoran religion. As far as trying to make it a well-rounded one with acolytes and nonbelievers and everyone in between. It’s something I don’t think I’ve seen outside of just, you know, you’re believers and your nonbelievers.
00:58:12:10 – 00:58:29:39
Edward O’Hare
What? And and also with the the three parter that open season two really shows is that, you know, for a lot of people, for the people in power, a lot of people just use that as a tool for politics.
00:58:29:43 – 00:58:37:46
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. Just like, was it he ends up being Count Dooku, right?
00:58:37:51 – 00:58:42:55
Edward O’Hare
No. No, no, it wasn’t Christopher Lee. It was Frank Langella. Oh, sorry.
00:58:43:00 – 00:58:45:57
Agent Palmer
Sorry.
00:58:46:02 – 00:58:49:13
Edward O’Hare
Who was Skeletor?
00:58:49:18 – 00:58:49:37
Agent Palmer
In case.
00:58:49:37 – 00:58:50:24
Edward O’Hare
You’re keeping track.
00:58:50:24 – 00:59:22:56
Agent Palmer
Apologies. Politics, but he does corrupt, a very sick, for the rest of the series. Which is, you know, kind of unique. I, I will say, though. Because a lot of this stuff outside of the war and the religion is all character driven. Yeah. So were you surprised by my list at all? Yeah. Either the first one or the second one.
00:59:23:01 – 00:59:26:43
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Some, Oh, for the for the characters.
00:59:26:43 – 00:59:28:19
Agent Palmer
Yes. Yeah.
00:59:28:19 – 00:59:41:43
Edward O’Hare
I mean, just because to me, the, you know, for, most of the first half of the series, I do not think of Bashir as a likable character.
00:59:41:48 – 00:59:43:48
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I just, I he’s.
00:59:43:59 – 00:59:58:57
Edward O’Hare
He’s an intriguing one, you know, and, and, especially a lot of the way he speaks to women in those first two seasons is, does not age well.
00:59:58:58 – 01:00:12:03
Agent Palmer
No, no, it doesn’t. But then again, there’s a well, there’s a lot of things that either age. Yeah, there’s some stuff in this show that doesn’t age well. And there’s a lot of it. There’s some of it that age is like fine wine, but not for the right reasons.
01:00:12:08 – 01:00:21:24
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Like I would have, Tammy Bashir doesn’t get interesting until you find out he’s an argument.
01:00:21:29 – 01:00:23:17
Agent Palmer
Okay.
01:00:23:22 – 01:00:24:22
Agent Palmer
All right.
01:00:24:27 – 01:00:38:09
Edward O’Hare
And then that that then you realize everything that he’s had to kind of compensate in his head, you know, and especially when he meets the other, all that other group of augments.
01:00:38:14 – 01:01:09:44
Agent Palmer
Now, in fairness, I did wait until after our man Bashir, to make the list. And he’s had the friendship with O’Brien and the Yasay friendship with Garrick, or whatever you want to call, whatever that that is. But I’m. I’m so for rank heavy in my top ten both times.
01:01:09:44 – 01:01:20:08
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And rom is fun. ROM is fun to be. Odo and quark is one of the great duos.
01:01:20:13 – 01:01:43:59
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but that’s. So when you talk about, duet, I immediately think of in that same vein when Quark and Odo get stuck on the planet, right? Like, oh, yeah, and they. Yeah, that’s the thing about this show is they have so many characters they can do that with, and that they did do that with, like, I’ve, I feel like they didn’t leave a stone unturned.
01:01:43:59 – 01:02:00:04
Agent Palmer
I think at some point somebody was like, hey, maybe we should put these two or the like. They were just throwing ideas around and somebody wrote all the different possibilities of people who could get stranded with him. By the end of the series, that’s happened in some fashion or another.
01:02:00:08 – 01:02:02:58
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:03:03 – 01:02:19:55
Agent Palmer
I’ll be honest. Kira is the one I. I could take her. I she’s important to the plot a lot of the time. But Kira, I didn’t grow on me from the beginning. And then I ended up displacing her from ninth, from ten to off the list because Worf got added.
01:02:19:57 – 01:02:45:21
Edward O’Hare
I mean, you know, puts, like, some of the some of that I, you know, I mean, with these characters, some of that I don’t think is fair just because, you know, to me, Kira and Sisko, they’re your anchors, you know, you I don’t expect them to have the. You know, their arcs are not going to be as winding and animated as as a supporting character can be.
01:02:45:26 – 01:02:48:04
Edward O’Hare
You know, they’ve, you know.
01:02:48:09 – 01:03:12:52
Agent Palmer
Well, so that that brings up an interesting point, because I wanted to ask you this. I had trouble trying to figure out, like, there were obviously people I left off my list that might have cracked the top ten, but I felt like they were not, main character enough, like, like, for example, the actual Naga sac.
01:03:12:56 – 01:03:17:37
Agent Palmer
Great character. Not top ten material because she just doesn’t appear, you know, but but like.
01:03:17:37 – 01:03:20:31
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, it put to make a separate list of recurring characters, but.
01:03:20:31 – 01:03:31:49
Agent Palmer
That. Well, that was going to be my question because is Rama main character is Garrick a main character like when, when when these characters. I mean, first of all, as somebody who just watched.
01:03:31:49 – 01:03:35:43
Edward O’Hare
It, well, I think by the end of the series they’re they’re regulars.
01:03:35:48 – 01:03:57:07
Agent Palmer
Okay. Because I was going to say Garrick, specifically Garrick and Caldicott both get also starring every time they’re on. They’re never in the main credits. So you always know they’re going to be in the episode that gets kind of spoiled a bit. If you watch the credits.
01:03:57:12 – 01:03:59:22
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
01:03:59:27 – 01:04:11:28
Agent Palmer
And I would have expected them to kind of make it in because they’re at the very least Garrick is on the station. He felt like he should have been in more. I mean, he was in a lot. Well, yeah.
01:04:11:28 – 01:04:23:53
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. And a lot of, a lot of that is also it has nothing to, you know, it has to do with we, we signed him for, for this number of episodes. So that’s how many you’re going to write him into. So,
01:04:23:58 – 01:04:35:26
Agent Palmer
All right. So I can ask you this. Now, obviously you’ve watched everything after this, but up to this point is Gold Ducat the best villain?
01:04:35:30 – 01:04:37:58
Edward O’Hare
Gold to cut the best villain.
01:04:38:00 – 01:04:56:01
Agent Palmer
Like he seems? First of all, he might be at this point. Okay, for those following along. Original series, animated series, original series, movies, next gen and next gen movies, at this point, he’s the most well-rounded villain of all of,
01:04:56:06 – 01:04:57:07
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
01:04:57:12 – 01:05:01:34
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if that makes him the best, but he is the most well-rounded at this point.
01:05:01:38 – 01:05:22:32
Edward O’Hare
I don’t know, I don’t know, I mean, he certainly, you know, in terms of individual characters, probably, but, to me, the, the Borg loom so large that I really can’t see anything being being more terrifying.
01:05:22:37 – 01:05:31:10
Agent Palmer
I mean, I guess the I mean, there would be an argument for the GM Hader being true. They tried to portray them as that.
01:05:31:10 – 01:05:31:53
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
01:05:31:58 – 01:05:33:32
Agent Palmer
Scary.
01:05:33:37 – 01:05:36:14
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
01:05:36:19 – 01:05:47:37
Agent Palmer
I’m glad they did episodes to kind of pull back the curtain and ridiculously as it sounds, humanize these bred for war warriors a bit.
01:05:47:37 – 01:05:56:19
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who who are basically, you know, born drug addicts. Yes. Yeah. It’s,
01:05:56:24 – 01:06:01:34
Agent Palmer
I don’t know, I there there was a lot in this series that just.
01:06:01:38 – 01:06:02:00
Agent Palmer
01:06:02:11 – 01:06:03:41
Agent Palmer
01:06:03:46 – 01:06:10:38
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Well, look at this. This one. The character I’m surprised is in higher is Jadzia Dax, because to me.
01:06:10:49 – 01:06:52:07
Agent Palmer
Dax was higher in the first list. But I, I think that I in hindsight, because it’s been a bit since I wrote this, I think it is Bashir and Cisco’s movement that really changes things like Bashir is kind of one of the reasons that I think O’Brien jumps Dax for me, because I think their relationship, bring some things and Cisco grew on me in the final three seasons, in a way that I wasn’t expecting.
01:06:52:12 – 01:07:06:29
Agent Palmer
Which is why Dax ended up falling, as she did. I think quark probably might have one of the better, like, runs of the whole series.
01:07:06:33 – 01:07:06:46
Agent Palmer
01:07:06:46 – 01:07:11:52
Agent Palmer
Because he gets to stay the same, but he moves slightly.
01:07:11:57 – 01:07:38:00
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s all you need from him? Yeah. Now, now, just just kind of like, talk to me, like, as the series developed, you know, in season two, you had the Marky show back up. It which gives a little bit more context to the what they were talking about at the very end of, of the last season of next gen, you see, you know, Anson Rowe is is sent to infiltrate the Maki.
01:07:38:03 – 01:07:40:20
Edward O’Hare
Yes. And then, I.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).