Episode 131 features the return of my friend and Master to my Padawan in all things Star Trek, Edward O’Hare.
He’s back again to discuss my continuing journey this time through all things Star Trek: The Next Generation…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
–End Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:25:37
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com Palmer’s Trek The Next Generation. The intersection of new tech and solid standards on display and collision of power. And if you still haven’t listened to King Triumph’s music, get grooving. This is The Palmer Files episode 131, featuring the return of my friend and master to my Padawan in all things Star Trek. Edward O’Hare. He’s back again to discuss my continuing journey, this time through all things Star Trek The Next Generation.
00:00:25:51 – 00:00:36:34
Agent Palmer
Are you ready? Let’s boldly go.
00:00:36:39 – 00:00:58:30
Agent Palmer
Palmer’s trek, the final frontier. These are my voyages on a continuing mission to explore Star Trek. To seek out television series and movies. To boldly go where many fans have gone before.
00:00:58:35 – 00:01:21:30
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 131st episode is Edward O’Hare, who’s back to talk Star Trek again, this time of the next generation variety. That’s right. Seven seasons of television and four movies Generation First Contact, insurrection and Nemesis. Plus what we agree and disagree on a few standout episodes for discussion.
00:01:21:32 – 00:01:43:51
Agent Palmer
Ed gets on his soapbox about Jonathan Frakes, the poor luck of Geordi La Forge, and so much more. But before we get there, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact my guest, Ed and myself in the show notes. There you can find a link to Ed’s Fiverr, where he’s available for voiceover work, and I suggest if you’re looking for voiceover, you give him some work.
00:01:43:52 – 00:02:04:48
Agent Palmer
The man is talented and I don’t say that just because he’s my friend. We’ve also worked together on some stuff beyond this podcast. Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, engage.
00:02:04:53 – 00:02:18:06
Agent Palmer
And I watched all of Star Trek The Next Generation as well as the four movies. It’s a lot. It’s seven full seasons and it it took me a while, I’ll admit.
00:02:18:15 – 00:02:21:20
Edward O’Hare
So. So we’re diving right into this. Yeah.
00:02:21:20 – 00:02:21:56
Agent Palmer
We’re diving. Right.
00:02:21:56 – 00:02:41:47
Edward O’Hare
Like like okay. So they. Okay. All right. Well I’m going to give you a little bit more editing work and just explain to you that right now I’m doing this to distract myself from the New York Yankees and, that I’m doing this also delaying my viewing of Beverly Hills Cop four.
00:02:41:48 – 00:02:44:02
Agent Palmer
I’m just. So I’m just going to start over then.
00:02:44:03 – 00:02:51:22
Edward O’Hare
Because I just want to know how important, how important this is right now. Okay. And the time that I’m making for you.
00:02:51:36 – 00:03:30:08
Agent Palmer
Yeah. But okay, so I, I think it is also important to note that for those listeners who listen to the original episode where we talked about the original the OG franchise with the yes, the series, the animated and the movies, you and I spoke more, like more regularly about my watch through of those than we did of next gen to to a very large extent, like there like I called you when there was like a two parter or something.
00:03:30:16 – 00:03:40:02
Agent Palmer
But for the most part, like occasionally, for the OG series, you’d be like, hey, did you did you get to this episode yet? We didn’t do that as much with Next Gen I.
00:03:40:02 – 00:04:02:04
Edward O’Hare
I, I, I think, I think because I haven’t rewatched next Gen as much as, as much as I have the original series and also I, I think we probably talked about it about as much, just the differences. There’s, there’s more than twice as many episodes. Yeah. Yeah. And also you had a long.
00:04:02:09 – 00:04:02:25
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:04:02:38 – 00:04:03:26
Edward O’Hare
Lag time.
00:04:03:26 – 00:04:05:18
Agent Palmer
I took, I took like finishing up those.
00:04:05:18 – 00:04:06:35
Edward O’Hare
Those last couple seasons.
00:04:06:35 – 00:04:37:25
Agent Palmer
Yeah I did, I, I needed a breather. I’m not to spoil anything, but it feels like I’ll probably need a breather going forward. With two more seven, I think I was trying to think about this. I introduced Steph to The West Wing and Gilmore Girls, which I only bring up because those are also both seven seasons, and I’m pretty sure we took them like it took us a while.
00:04:37:25 – 00:04:49:04
Agent Palmer
Like it, you know, like, I think every seven or more series thing has a, a bit of a okay, maybe, maybe I need a break from this before I finish it.
00:04:49:09 – 00:05:13:21
Edward O’Hare
Well, also you gotta you gotta remember especially like and this is something that that’s going to come up in our discussion pre Sopranos. You know pre the HBO revolution so 60s through the 90s you had 20 in this case 26 episode seasons. Yeah. That were only meant to be viewed once a week. So they’re not really built for bingeing.
00:05:13:21 – 00:05:22:28
Edward O’Hare
If you watch 3 or 4 more depending on the type of show, they can blend together and you and you could start to they could start to feel repetitive.
00:05:22:28 – 00:05:49:25
Agent Palmer
I very much tried to keep it on average one when I was like before, if you discount the break, I was doing like 1.1, like occasionally I do two and maybe on the oddball, I’d like miss a couple days and I do three to catch up, but for the most part it was fairly daily viewing, which felt important for just for that reason, because they do kind of like it’s unlike the OG series.
00:05:49:25 – 00:05:56:38
Agent Palmer
It’s much more connected, but it’s not connected in a way. Something in 2020 would be connect.
00:05:56:40 – 00:06:29:44
Edward O’Hare
No, no, it’s not, it’s not it’s not serial. It’s very much, you know, it’s a procedural where each you know, that’s the thing that frustrates me with a lot of shows, not just the modern Trek shows, but a lot of TV shows, period, that have gone to the, you know, hyper serialized format where, like every season, we’ve got to tell one big long story or I feel like you’ve you’re taking six to 8 to 10 episodes to solve a problem that Picard and company would have figured out in 45 minutes.
00:06:29:49 – 00:07:05:27
Agent Palmer
That’s fine. That’s fair, that’s fair. I, I, I will tell you, this was a journey in that, I like next gen. I don’t love next gen. And I want to go a step further and say I, I really the movies grew on me. But I don’t know that I would have had the same appreciation for the movies had I watched them in a vacuum without the seven seasons prior.
00:07:05:32 – 00:07:06:36
Agent Palmer
00:07:06:40 – 00:07:09:08
Edward O’Hare
That’s fair. That’s fair, but.
00:07:09:08 – 00:07:17:59
Agent Palmer
I, I almost want to say I like the movies better than I like the I like the next gen cinematic stuff, probably a little bit more than the series.
00:07:18:04 – 00:07:34:55
Edward O’Hare
Well, also, you got to remember they’re, they’re they’re on a syndicated TV budget. So you know, it. There’s there’s certain things, you know, it’s very similar to the type of stuff that BBC was doing with Doctor Who, although it was a definitely geared towards a different demographic although, but.
00:07:35:00 – 00:08:01:11
Agent Palmer
Well and to that extent and I, I don’t know much about Doctor Who, but I will say the one weird thing about watching those last four movies to skip to the end real quick is they feel like an extension of the television show from the 90s, and they don’t feel like they like, if if I had watched this in a vacuum and you had been like, what year did the last movie come out, I would have been like 90.
00:08:01:11 – 00:08:26:55
Agent Palmer
Something like, it doesn’t feel like 2002. Okay. Like it just, and I think all of the movies and maybe two, maybe a greater extent than like the OG movies, they do fan service without fan service. I don’t know, like if that resonates like it’s they they hit all the beats for the fans without like pandering I guess.
00:08:27:00 – 00:08:38:57
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah. It’s the kind of thing where it’s a nice little treat or a nugget for someone who’s a diehard, but it’s not going to distract a newbie. It’s, you know, or take them out of.
00:08:38:57 – 00:08:47:42
Agent Palmer
It, especially as someone who is watching the movies before he’s watched Deep Space Nine, and I know like the I know there was an overlap.
00:08:47:44 – 00:08:51:35
Edward O’Hare
Oh, yeah. You don’t know what you don’t know anything about that tough little ship.
00:08:51:40 – 00:09:14:35
Agent Palmer
No, no, no, I also don’t know why, You know, somebody next to me on the couch was skiing when Janeway showed up, and I don’t know how they got Worf back from Deep Space Nine. I don’t even know why he was there in the first place. Right. Like. But. And that’s fine, I like I kind of expect that, especially coming forward.
00:09:14:35 – 00:09:32:16
Agent Palmer
There’s going to be some overlaps, but I don’t. I’ll never get through any of these series if I watch them like that. Yeah, as they’re supposed to be. But the I, I did, I will say I don’t think those first two seasons are nearly as bad as you let let them. Well, that led them to be.
00:09:32:29 – 00:09:53:29
Edward O’Hare
The thing that, that I found really puzzling about your review of of the Next Generation series. Yeah. It just it felt like you got this thing in your head when your dies at the end of season one, that this is the type of show where, like, we kill people off and there’s high stakes like.
00:09:53:29 – 00:09:53:39
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:09:53:42 – 00:10:02:54
Edward O’Hare
So and I don’t think that’s fair because it was never going to be that kind of show. It’s meant to be meant to be an 80s version of the original series, but.
00:10:02:54 – 00:10:16:27
Agent Palmer
It doesn’t feel like an 80s version of the original. Like they I think that they spent so much time in. Yeah, character development. They lost some of the, no.
00:10:16:27 – 00:10:38:52
Edward O’Hare
It’s the exact opposite. The reason those first two seasons don’t work is because they’re so caught up with clever plots and sci fi tropes that you don’t care about the characters. And then in the third season, when Michael Piller comes in and says, no, we’re going to focus on characters, and each character is going to have at least 1 or 2 episodes a season.
00:10:38:52 – 00:10:44:08
Edward O’Hare
That’s about them. That’s when people started to get attached to it, and the series took off.
00:10:44:19 – 00:11:07:30
Agent Palmer
Although if that’s true, then why did they? Why were they like, all right, we’re going to we’re going to give Beverly some interesting like love story stuff. We’re going to give Riker some on again, off again with Troi, Picard is going to have a lot of stuff happen. Data is going to have a lot of stuff happen, and Geordi is going to get shit on for the rest of the entire series.
00:11:07:34 – 00:11:30:02
Agent Palmer
Like how? Why? Because I know. I’m sure I mentioned it in my review because, like, it’s so obvious. Like, every episode focused on Geordi is like, how can we crush this man? Like, he’s so happy and he’s so optimistic and he’s so aware of his abilities. How can we crush him? Why?
00:11:30:07 – 00:11:58:22
Edward O’Hare
Well, it’s about it’s about bringing him back down to earth that even you know, that even that even the smartest, most, most dedicated, brilliant engineers are not perfect. You know, and and think about how those those types of storylines. I, I feel like the movie her just takes that storyline right, right out of. That’s where she falls in love with the hologram.
00:11:58:22 – 00:12:12:53
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. That’s fair. You know, I yeah. And the way they were able to build in recurring characters, remember, you only got Perry Mud in two episodes, but you got Barclay and Cue running all the way through the.
00:12:12:53 – 00:12:21:47
Agent Palmer
Okay, okay, okay, fine. Let’s let’s talk about it then I, I will admit, and we talked about this on the phone a few times.
00:12:21:52 – 00:12:22:37
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, it’s.
00:12:22:37 – 00:12:48:57
Agent Palmer
Not until cuz like fourth appearance that I’m like, all right, I kind of like Q now. I thought Q was annoying. Barclay I loved from the moment he started. Yeah, he was for me. He was this. He was next gens, Harvey Mudd. But like Q like, I just I was just kind of like, it seems too convenient.
00:12:49:01 – 00:12:51:31
Agent Palmer
That was that was it, you know?
00:12:51:36 – 00:13:22:45
Edward O’Hare
Well, it’s it because I feel like the, original series, like, you know, one of the types of episodes, they had about five different versions of. We run into an alien that’s that’s so evolved and tells us that you’re not ready to understand us and you’re going to give it time. And Q was just an extrapolation of that and to the point where it’s like, you’re not ready, and I’m going to have fun proving that to you.
00:13:22:50 – 00:13:34:38
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I think I think it was that kind of like childlike benevolence that like, I didn’t like until, like he made a true connection, like. Yeah. Further.
00:13:34:38 – 00:13:37:02
Edward O’Hare
Do you just don’t like, do you just don’t like fun? Yeah.
00:13:37:04 – 00:13:53:51
Agent Palmer
No, apparently I just don’t like fun. Oh that’s fine, that’s fine. I, I mean, this is the other thing, and I, I wanted to ask you this question. I watched with my limited knowledge going in. I got the full force of the OG stuff, and then I watched The Next Generation.
00:13:54:05 – 00:13:55:38
Edward O’Hare
And,
00:13:55:42 – 00:14:14:45
Agent Palmer
I think in my headcanon, I still prefer the OG stuff, and I don’t know if that’s I don’t know if that’s just because that’s the way I watched it. So everything’s going to be compared to it, as opposed to going back and discovering what the original was or.
00:14:14:50 – 00:14:15:32
Edward O’Hare
00:14:15:36 – 00:14:35:18
Agent Palmer
If it’s just a product of like, you know, I’m sure there’s people out there that try to go back and watch that stuff. Look it’s 60s television, just like I’m sure there’s people that have discovered Star Trek since Next Gen that go back and go like, oh, this is 90s television. Like it’s different. The storytelling, the shooting, it’s all different.
00:14:35:18 – 00:14:48:19
Agent Palmer
But I don’t know, it’s just I think it and I don’t know, I feel like maybe like you had I come to it first, it might have been in the, a different thing.
00:14:48:24 – 00:14:59:58
Edward O’Hare
Well, it yeah, it is interesting because I had a whole plan for you that you didn’t want to do, which would have involved you jumping around. Show, show to show.
00:15:00:03 – 00:15:12:17
Agent Palmer
It would have felt like I was. At least now I’ve got the original series stuff done and next gen stuff on, like the way you had it, I would have been in a tunnel and there’s a light, but it’s still a pinhole.
00:15:12:22 – 00:15:13:10
Edward O’Hare
Okay.
00:15:13:14 – 00:15:32:14
Agent Palmer
There’s no light. And I look at the moment and I say this. Yeah, knowing full well that I have 18 seasons of television ahead of me before I get to any more movies than it does feel like I’ve accomplished something, which is the reason I didn’t go with your thing. There you go. Okay. You know.
00:15:32:27 – 00:15:47:52
Edward O’Hare
That’s perfectly fine. Yeah. But also, it’s the kind of thing where, you know, I grew up Next Generation as Next Generation was airing, and that was what I first,
00:15:47:57 – 00:15:48:43
Agent Palmer
Experienced.
00:15:48:58 – 00:16:07:02
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Experience. Yeah. And so the things that I think works about the series is it is still anthology. You you don’t have to watch those episodes as they are. You can watch them in a random order and still.
00:16:07:02 – 00:16:08:31
Agent Palmer
Get for the most part.
00:16:08:36 – 00:16:09:42
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. The experience.
00:16:09:42 – 00:16:32:33
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Because I will say, even during my extended breaks, when I came back, I wasn’t lost, which I guess is, kind of more to that point, right? Like you can take because I think I took a month off at one point. And it was just like, oh, well, I just put one on and this feels comfortable.
00:16:32:38 – 00:17:02:04
Edward O’Hare
The, the one exception to that, I think and, and really like the big turning point for the series and, you know, and this is, this is true of all three of the 90s shows, and to a lesser extent, enterprise. But, season three is when things start to gel, okay. And then season four, there’s a big change and a turning point that really kicks kicks the series into high gear.
00:17:02:04 – 00:17:07:04
Edward O’Hare
And for the next generation, that’s the best of both worlds. Parts one and two.
00:17:07:09 – 00:17:07:42
Agent Palmer
Yeah, that.
00:17:07:42 – 00:17:12:05
Edward O’Hare
Was the weird. I would say. There’s you could see a huge shift before and after that.
00:17:12:10 – 00:17:21:05
Agent Palmer
That episode there was there’s that moment when you start getting two parters that aren’t season ending cliffhangers.
00:17:21:16 – 00:17:21:41
Edward O’Hare
Yes.
00:17:21:43 – 00:17:45:21
Agent Palmer
Where I have to give the show credit for like, well, they took some chances because like you, you knew you couldn’t do it in one episode. So let’s just go with it, and I, I know that the 90s kind of that was part of 90s television. It wasn’t just Star Trek. I, I get that. Yeah. But, you know, they they took some mighty big swings in the middle of some of those seats.
00:17:45:24 – 00:17:59:42
Agent Palmer
Sure. Yeah, I but I think in syndication, I think I’d still rather watched the OG, but I wouldn’t turn it off for next gen episode if it came on. I think that’s where I’m at right now.
00:17:59:43 – 00:18:02:17
Edward O’Hare
Okay.
00:18:02:22 – 00:18:13:54
Agent Palmer
So I, aside from needing a break, which I wouldn’t have expected either. Was there anything else that surprised you, for my series?
00:18:14:06 – 00:18:35:29
Edward O’Hare
Well, I think to me, the way you responded to certain episodes and I could say I have a document here that I’ve, that I’ve put together for friends who were interested in dipping their toes in Star Trek. And, of course, I think I’ve sent this to you, but it’s it’s way too detailed, for any sane person.
00:18:35:34 – 00:18:50:25
Edward O’Hare
But I do have the, the you see, it’s. Well, if you count the two parters is one five episodes of next gen that I think.
00:18:50:29 – 00:18:51:11
Agent Palmer
You have to watch.
00:18:51:13 – 00:19:06:10
Edward O’Hare
You have to watch, or I’ll say. I’ll say that I think are good litmus tests. Okay. If you’ll enjoy the series, the first episode, like, if you only watch one episode of Next Gen, I think it would be dramatic.
00:19:06:12 – 00:19:40:11
Agent Palmer
Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s that, but that feels that feels like an episode that transcends the series I like. I almost want to tell you that that shouldn’t count, because even if it was any other sci fi show or a nameless sci fi show, the writing on that specific episode, had it been any other series, even one that only lasted like half a season, like let’s, let’s let’s just for the hypothetical, say that that was an episode of Firefly, right?
00:19:40:11 – 00:19:48:09
Agent Palmer
Change the characters, but the plot’s the same and the language barriers the same. It still would have been transcendent as an episode.
00:19:48:09 – 00:19:59:51
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that that to me is like one of the top, like, I think just even educational television. Yeah. Episodes of of television.
00:19:59:51 – 00:20:10:31
Agent Palmer
But also in, in a, in a selfish way, feels like a very OG episode specifically like it’s very, Yeah. Like, it just feels different.
00:20:10:31 – 00:20:24:18
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I mean, and then the other ones I have here are, Q who, which is the season two episode where Q introduces the enterprise to the Borg.
00:20:24:23 – 00:20:25:27
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:20:25:32 – 00:20:55:48
Edward O’Hare
Yesterday’s enterprise, which I think is the best time travel and really just the moral dilemma that Picard is put through in that episode. And then Best of Both Worlds, parts one and two and, the inner light and one that’s not on this list, but I would say is probably one of my favorite episodes as someone for, hardcore trekkers, I would say Chain of Command parts one and two.
00:20:55:53 – 00:21:16:42
Edward O’Hare
Okay. And, I could tell you my my, I come from a military family. My, my dad’s a U.S. Army colonel. My my brother and both of my grandfathers served. And from what they’ve said, the Captain Jellico is, most it’s the best representation of a modern American military officer.
00:21:16:46 – 00:21:33:21
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And I guess depending on how you feel about the future, that is or isn’t a good thing, you know, I mean, like, I just just put it out there, right? Like, I mean, yeah, we’re supposed to have evolved in a couple hundred years, Ed, but shouldn’t be the same.
00:21:33:26 – 00:21:59:16
Edward O’Hare
It’s very funny to see a lot of a lot of creative types, you know, or or, there are a half the audience think that he’s being really mean and unreasonable to Riker. And then other people like Riker’s being a total jerk because he’s not doing his job. Yeah, Jellico is giving him orders, and he’s supposed to do them.
00:21:59:21 – 00:22:07:18
Edward O’Hare
That’s the question. He gives you tells, you know. All right, fine. Let’s get it done. Yeah, yeah, I.
00:22:07:23 – 00:22:08:41
Agent Palmer
I, I think.
00:22:08:46 – 00:22:17:21
Edward O’Hare
That well, that that and also the what Picard goes through in that episode and that really demonstrates how scary the Kardashians are.
00:22:17:33 – 00:22:35:12
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I it, it’s probably the only time. Right. Like it’s the threats in this show in next gen to like only feel like threats on paper for some reason. Like that’s okay.
00:22:35:18 – 00:22:41:26
Edward O’Hare
No, this is this is a part we’re going to have a hard disagree. But give give your views. First I want you to put that out first.
00:22:41:26 – 00:23:08:11
Agent Palmer
It’s just that the best way to describe it is there’s some military conflict with within, like the Kardashians or the, you know, the Romulans come back and, certain Klingon factions, but like those with a history of violence, against the Federation, you can point and be like, oh, this is some, you know, some shit went down, right?
00:23:08:16 – 00:23:32:53
Agent Palmer
And and the Borg eventually feels like a threat. But, I don’t know, like the Kardashians always felt like. Like it was like the. We talk about them in hushed tones. Maybe people be scared of them, right? Like, it’s like I never saw. Like, I guess my point is they they talk to the game like, that’s the bad guys.
00:23:32:58 – 00:23:49:58
Agent Palmer
But I never saw it. Right? Like there was some fear in a few episodes. But the same can be said of the Romulans or, you know, the the Klingons. So, wait, you know, just it never felt it never felt real to me.
00:23:50:02 – 00:24:02:11
Edward O’Hare
Okay, well, one thing you had to remember, this is from 87 to 94. Yes. So this is really the end of the Cold War?
00:24:02:16 – 00:24:03:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:24:03:21 – 00:25:00:07
Edward O’Hare
So and also, we’ve established that Klingons in the Federation have found a peace, have found a type of peace or alliance in, in, in this world. So the threats that are, that are showing up, you know, and I mean, this is this might seem reductive, but if you look at the classic series, Klingons were meant to be imperialists who were just sort of trying to take over different worlds just to say they had this big, giant thing, you know, just to, you know, establish dominance, you know, whereas the Federation was more and about bringing people together and keeping cultural identity and Romulans were, you know, very much mysterious, sort of, red Chinese
00:25:00:08 – 00:25:31:01
Edward O’Hare
communists, where they wanted to have everything clouded in mystery. And, you know, you had all this infighting and, and, you know, stuff happening behind the scenes that you didn’t know about where whereas the original villains that Roddenberry envisions were the Ferengi. And the problem is, he wanted to make them capitalists to show how in the future that process doesn’t work.
00:25:31:01 – 00:25:37:17
Edward O’Hare
But it kind of went too far and made them too goofy looking.
00:25:37:22 – 00:25:38:46
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I feel like to the.
00:25:38:46 – 00:25:41:23
Edward O’Hare
Point where they weren’t taken as seriously.
00:25:41:30 – 00:25:48:24
Agent Palmer
And not only were they not taken seriously like I expect I’ll see more of them in other series because like.
00:25:48:33 – 00:25:50:31
Edward O’Hare
You know, like, but they take on a very different.
00:25:50:31 – 00:26:13:18
Agent Palmer
Role. Okay? Because I, I think, I think they feature in like maybe five episodes, like it’s just their show. It’s almost I, you know, again, I say this coming from a place of ignorance, really, because it’s only been next gen and I haven’t watched the other series, but like, it feels like they were throwaways, like, exactly like you’re saying, like, oh, these are capitalists.
00:26:13:25 – 00:26:17:00
Agent Palmer
Oh, we went too far. Okay, let’s not do that again.
00:26:17:04 – 00:26:36:05
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah. Well, they they took a step back and they, they really retooled them in the future series. And, you know, and as far as the, the Borg are technocrats who believe that technology is, is going to fulfill us and they know better than everybody else.
00:26:36:05 – 00:26:42:34
Agent Palmer
And what a and so but still. Okay, that I, I mean it’s a good primer on everybody except the Kardashians.
00:26:42:38 – 00:26:49:29
Edward O’Hare
And the Kardashians are fascists. It doesn’t like I don’t who who want to impose their will.
00:26:49:34 – 00:26:51:04
Agent Palmer
Am I going to get more from other.
00:26:51:04 – 00:26:59:00
Edward O’Hare
Series biting my tongue? Because when you watch Deep Space Nine, you’ll understand what I’m talking about. All right. They play a much bigger part in Deep Space Nine.
00:26:59:13 – 00:27:00:26
Agent Palmer
Now I, I.
00:27:00:32 – 00:27:13:40
Edward O’Hare
Really it’s it’s the kind of thing where like they, they believe in oppressive domination, you know, and they’re not hiding it.
00:27:13:45 – 00:27:44:19
Agent Palmer
So I guess the question is, and I’m not asking for spoilers, but I am asking, I guess, just because I’m curious. The Ferengi and the Kardashians, they play bigger roles in other series. How much of an overlap was there as far as that kind of stuff between, like the latter seasons of Next Gen and the early seasons of Deep Space Nine?
00:27:44:19 – 00:27:57:14
Edward O’Hare
Sure. So Deep Space Nine premiered in the middle of season six of Next Gen Gen in the January of that year. Okay. So you had you had a season and a half. So basically a two season overlap.
00:27:57:14 – 00:28:08:52
Agent Palmer
So it’s not great, but they could put things like deferring on a shelf and retool them for later. Yeah. Yes. They had that time basically.
00:28:09:06 – 00:28:10:51
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Now yes.
00:28:10:56 – 00:28:26:33
Agent Palmer
I guess the other question is did they know due to the success of next Gen, that they were going to get seven seasons out of Deep Space Nine and then Voyager overlaps with Deep Space Nine? Like, did they know.
00:28:26:38 – 00:28:29:13
Edward O’Hare
The short answer is.
00:28:29:18 – 00:28:35:06
Agent Palmer
I mean, I guess the real question is, was next gen successful enough? I mean, it must have been successful enough to launch these.
00:28:35:06 – 00:28:40:26
Edward O’Hare
Spinoffs next gen was successful enough to launch a spinoff.
00:28:40:31 – 00:28:41:11
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:28:41:16 – 00:29:11:14
Edward O’Hare
And basically, after Deep Space Nine got off the ground, because remember, the next generation in Deep Space Nine both aired in first run syndication. Okay. So they, you know, they would be in New York. It was they were on channel 11 Sunday nights. But Voyager was part of the launch of the UPN network. Okay. So basically, once Deep Space Nine got off the ground, Paramount decided they wanted to create the fifth or sixth network.
00:29:11:14 – 00:29:21:05
Edward O’Hare
I forget if they came before or after WB, and that they wanted a Star Trek series to anchor that. Okay. And that’s what Voyager was, was developed.
00:29:21:11 – 00:29:32:18
Agent Palmer
But that’s only because of the success of Next Gen, which then helped launch Deep Space Nine. Yeah, right. Like there’s a there’s a there’s a domino effect there. Yes.
00:29:32:18 – 00:29:53:13
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, I think that I think once they decided that that Voyager was going to it’s going to be a thing, they figured that next gen was probably going to wrap up after 7 or 8 seasons. So they wrapped it up after seven. And then the following January, Voyager’s first season happened when it, coincided with the launch of UPN.
00:29:53:17 – 00:29:54:29
Edward O’Hare
Okay.
00:29:54:34 – 00:29:55:46
Agent Palmer
And so was.
00:29:55:46 – 00:29:56:39
Edward O’Hare
There. Yeah.
00:29:56:43 – 00:30:16:55
Agent Palmer
Was there always going to be movies like. Cause that’s the other question, right. Like, I understand the formula of the original series, and it was off the air for so long in the animated series. And we talked a bit about that in the other episode, but like, you knew, you know, as Roddenberry was fighting and fighting and fighting that he was going to get, you know, Captain Kirk back.
00:30:16:55 – 00:30:18:57
Agent Palmer
But like when yeah, I.
00:30:19:10 – 00:30:46:21
Edward O’Hare
I don’t know if it was the plan from the beginning, but it was a natural progression that by the early 90s, the original crew were getting old and to get too expensive. Okay. And and they felt that, you know, Rick Berman, who was basically had take it over for Roddenberry when next Gen started and after, you know, Roddenberry passed.
00:30:46:21 – 00:30:54:29
Edward O’Hare
Gene Roddenberry passed away in 1991, right after Star Trek six.
00:30:54:34 – 00:31:04:12
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Because there is a there’s an In Memoriam not only on that movie, but within the the show, next gen as well. Yeah. So.
00:31:04:17 – 00:31:32:18
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yeah. Yes. And, so he felt that the next gen cast was strong enough that they, that they could take over as a movie franchise. And, and he was an improvement in that. And that was proved right. Yeah. I believe that at one time there was a plan to do TV movies for Deep Space Nine, but by that point, TV movies start being profitable.
00:31:32:18 – 00:31:35:32
Edward O’Hare
That’s fair. That’s where they never really.
00:31:35:39 – 00:31:36:54
Agent Palmer
And is that what we should call.
00:31:36:58 – 00:31:40:25
Edward O’Hare
The and the and the UPN had collapsed soon after that. Is that is.
00:31:40:27 – 00:31:45:44
Agent Palmer
That what we should call, like, direct to streaming movies now? They’re the they’re the TV movies of.
00:31:45:49 – 00:31:51:15
Edward O’Hare
Of today that I mean, that’s what Steven Spielberg would like to think. That’s. Yeah.
00:31:51:20 – 00:31:59:06
Agent Palmer
Okay. So speaking of the movies, the first one is generation’s.
00:31:59:11 – 00:32:00:41
Edward O’Hare
A Hot Mess. It’s a.
00:32:00:41 – 00:32:23:58
Agent Palmer
Crossover, basically. Yes. It’s I mean, for some reason, it feels like. And obviously I’m a little bit removed from my review. I’ve had a little bit more time to breathe with it. It feels like a cinematic franchise baton passing that, yes, doesn’t need to happen, but it does.
00:32:23:58 – 00:32:49:28
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Yeah. It’s the it’s the kind of thing that, you know, people with the can, you know, you know, true trekkers, you know, the, the, the true believers really kind of hem and haw and stamp their feet about. But, you know, executives are like, no, we need to explain this picture. It just kind of just for it to make sense in our head so that we can think that the audience understands it, they need to pay.
00:32:49:32 – 00:33:04:33
Edward O’Hare
And plus, also, you know, it’s the kind of thing where for, you know, seven, you know, since next year and had launched, you know, you had conventions and like we talk about comic conventions.
00:33:04:45 – 00:33:05:35
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I know.
00:33:05:39 – 00:33:25:10
Edward O’Hare
You know being prevalent like there were Star Trek conventions every at least once a month somewhere, somewhere around the country or the world, like there were just as many standalone Star Trek conventions as there are, you know, big comic conventions. Now, they were all over the place.
00:33:25:10 – 00:33:29:13
Agent Palmer
And they would all fight about who the better captain was.
00:33:29:18 – 00:33:43:04
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, yeah, they were. Yeah, they were. I mean, there’s actually a great scene in Night Court. Where they have a dispute between, Telos fans and TNG fans.
00:33:43:09 – 00:33:46:46
Agent Palmer
I feel like you’ve sent this to me. I think I think I have, yeah, I have, all right.
00:33:46:57 – 00:34:00:04
Edward O’Hare
That’s basically it. You know, it. And it came over a fact of which of which captain was violating the Prime Directive more often. Okay.
00:34:00:08 – 00:34:11:23
Agent Palmer
I mean, I will say I like them both on screen. The script was selfishly Shatner oriented, but I feel like he knew it was his end.
00:34:11:28 – 00:34:23:23
Edward O’Hare
As far as and a great, a great sendoff. You know, he kept trying to come back after that and you’re like, no, no, the.
00:34:23:27 – 00:34:31:46
Agent Palmer
And then and that, like, Star Generations is good. Like I enjoyed it. Yeah. But I, I loved first contact.
00:34:31:46 – 00:34:45:59
Edward O’Hare
Yes. First contact to me is, is far and away the best of the movies. It’s the most commercial. I think it stands alone. It’s the one movie that I think is enjoyable, whether you’re a Star Trek fan or not.
00:34:46:03 – 00:35:00:37
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I could see that because it’s it does so much heavy lifting with the story itself that you don’t need the Seven seasons and movie that came before it, to understand what’s going on, but also the.
00:35:00:37 – 00:35:23:29
Edward O’Hare
It really is a great culmination for Picard’s character arc of having to finally come to terms with what the Borg put him through, you know, and he really didn’t get that far. You know, he gets that final face off that you didn’t really get in in TNG. Yeah, because because whenever they’re encountered the Borg, it was always an shoots.
00:35:23:29 – 00:35:26:48
Edward O’Hare
You know, he never came face to face with them again until first contact.
00:35:26:52 – 00:35:44:19
Agent Palmer
Also, it’s the first time they seem scary to me. I mean, I guess you guess you. Yes. It’s the it’s probably the only budgetary nitpick I’ll make of the entire next gen television series is they did the Borg so dirty on.
00:35:44:19 – 00:35:45:50
Edward O’Hare
Television.
00:35:45:54 – 00:35:53:15
Agent Palmer
Because they never seem like a serious threat, despite everything until first contact.
00:35:53:15 – 00:36:11:54
Edward O’Hare
Well, I think maybe that might have. Might have just been because, to be honest, the first image I remember seeing on the television screen was low kudos. And three year old Ed was scared shitless.
00:36:11:59 – 00:36:15:04
Agent Palmer
But he’s recovered, right? You’ve recovered. You’re better now.
00:36:15:15 – 00:36:34:20
Edward O’Hare
Yes. Okay. I’m better now. Okay. But, you know, it’s the kind of thing, like, as an idea. They are frightening. And you’re you’re right. The the makeup effects. Finally, you know, fully realized that danger. You know.
00:36:34:20 – 00:36:36:23
Agent Palmer
Also, I mean, Cochrane.
00:36:36:28 – 00:36:39:53
Edward O’Hare
Oh, what a oh, yeah. James Cromwell’s great.
00:36:39:53 – 00:36:44:48
Agent Palmer
Cromwell steals that movie. It’s I which is hard to do, but.
00:36:44:53 – 00:36:55:15
Edward O’Hare
I actually think that movie contains the only scene in which Deanna Troi is ever funny when she’s drunk. When Riker finds her drunk in the bar with.
00:36:55:15 – 00:36:56:35
Agent Palmer
Cromwell, with Kirk?
00:36:56:40 – 00:36:59:22
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
00:36:59:22 – 00:37:23:25
Agent Palmer
I mean, yeah. And then I, So at this point, occasionally, guests or, like, people I’m, you know, just talking to you, I’d be like, oh, yeah, I’m going to watch interaction next. And, everybody says, I’m sorry. And I didn’t find insurrection that bad. I kind of.
00:37:23:26 – 00:37:24:12
Edward O’Hare
Joke, sorry.
00:37:24:23 – 00:37:52:05
Agent Palmer
I don’t, but I don’t. Why? Why what what is this? Because I, I thought that well, there are some, you know, moments, but it felt like straight up a very good two parter from the television series, which I kind of enjoyed and I. Yeah, I don’t mind. I guess I don’t mind seeing that as part of a big movie.
00:37:52:10 – 00:38:19:34
Edward O’Hare
It’s the, the, the transition from the first contact insurrection reminds me very much of what happened to Star Trek five coming off of Star Trek four, where it was it was, started for was a big, relatable comedy. It was the most financially successful of the original series movies. And they were expecting five to be that big windfall.
00:38:19:34 – 00:38:33:59
Edward O’Hare
And Shatner’s in the director’s chair, and it’s just. Okay, you know, and and it is kind of, you know, an extent, it’s just kind of an extended episode of the original series.
00:38:33:59 – 00:38:44:37
Agent Palmer
Would people prefer insurrection had it been like when people talk about the great two parter of insurrection one and two in like, season five? If it hadn’t, if it had been that.
00:38:44:37 – 00:38:51:49
Edward O’Hare
Instead of on ice, I think so, I think because people were expecting, you know.
00:38:51:52 – 00:38:53:05
Agent Palmer
Bigger than First Contact.
00:38:53:19 – 00:39:04:13
Edward O’Hare
The big, you know, rollicking action, of First Contact and Insurrection is a more cerebral story.
00:39:04:27 – 00:39:05:58
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:39:06:03 – 00:39:18:00
Edward O’Hare
You know, that it it didn’t it didn’t get as many. You know, it to me. It’s the kind of thing where it’s like, if you’re going to do a movie, if you’re going to put this in theaters, it’s got to be big.
00:39:18:15 – 00:39:18:49
Agent Palmer
I mean.
00:39:18:54 – 00:39:42:22
Edward O’Hare
And and it an insurrection didn’t really elevate to that level. You know, it’s like, what about this story needs to be told on the big screen? And I don’t think it quite delivered there. Okay. You know, and I think I think it was kind of just the tonal shift just wasn’t quite what fan what fans were expecting. It’s not bad.
00:39:42:33 – 00:39:48:16
Edward O’Hare
Okay. I think it’s a little slow at points. And.
00:39:48:18 – 00:40:10:01
Agent Palmer
No, I think that’s what kind of makes me think of it more as a two parter because, like, yeah, every two parter in Star Trek. So far has very much had that moment where it’s like, this is a 90 minute movie, but we have to make it an hour and 48 minutes to split it with the two and make it a two part, like a full two episodes.
00:40:10:05 – 00:40:14:30
Agent Palmer
We can’t short them on an episode and they always get a little slow somewhere.
00:40:14:35 – 00:40:45:12
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. And it and it’s a real shame because Jonathan Frakes directed both First Contact and Insurrection, and I feel like he should have been a bigger movie director, and he’s just been sidelined to TV since then. I think he did a Nickelodeon movie. That was like a time stoppers movie that was a flash in the pan. And then he hasn’t directed any feature since, and I wish that they would let that guy loose in a marvel movie.
00:40:45:17 – 00:40:53:12
Edward O’Hare
I think, you know, he’s someone, you know who could be a great sci fi action director. We’ll just.
00:40:53:17 – 00:40:56:40
Agent Palmer
We’re not we’re not done with the movie. There’s one more movie left.
00:40:56:45 – 00:41:21:49
Edward O’Hare
Well, yeah. Yeah. And, well, just because Frakes Frakes didn’t direct that one, but that that’s why I’m just talking about this specific thing. You got one other note I will have about insurrection. Yeah. My mother, when I was growing up in the 90s, was a, freelance proofreader. She would proofread a lot of books for Pocket Books and Penguin Books.
00:41:21:50 – 00:41:41:25
Edward O’Hare
Okay. She did a lot of Hardy Boys. Nancy Drew mysteries. She proofread one of the early Starfleet Academy books. A lot of Star Trek books, but one of one of her assignments was the novelization of Star Trek Insurrection.
00:41:41:30 – 00:42:20:17
Edward O’Hare
And I did speak to her, you know, a few hours before we recorded just if there was any tidbits. And one thing she did remember is in the novelization, the, the the ending of insurrection, where the spoilers, the satellite is destroyed with Russo that the novel described. Picard seeing Russo slowly de-age as all of the energy is bursting through the satellite from an old, frail man into a young child.
00:42:20:22 – 00:42:29:01
Edward O’Hare
And, I guess for some reason they were not able to make that effect work work properly for the series, and I did not see that in the final film.
00:42:29:06 – 00:42:38:22
Agent Palmer
Or they just didn’t want to have anyone under the age of 15 scarred for life.
00:42:38:27 – 00:42:38:39
Edward O’Hare
Just.
00:42:38:43 – 00:42:43:50
Agent Palmer
That if done well, that could be very scary.
00:42:43:55 – 00:42:50:48
Edward O’Hare
But but I think also it kind of, you know, would have been cathartic for that character.
00:42:50:53 – 00:42:52:22
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:42:52:26 – 00:42:53:48
Edward O’Hare
Yeah.
00:42:53:53 – 00:43:00:49
Agent Palmer
I mean, there’s a reason. Yeah. That fountain of youth movies and plotlines in general never really work out.
00:43:00:53 – 00:43:04:14
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. All right. So,
00:43:04:18 – 00:43:06:09
Agent Palmer
And then we get nemesis.
00:43:06:14 – 00:43:09:22
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. So why do you not like nemesis?
00:43:09:27 – 00:43:37:18
Agent Palmer
I, I just I just thought the the I, you know, I wrote about it. I didn’t think the parallel duels, so to speak. We didn’t need another data for the plot. And I felt like they really tried to shoehorn some stuff that wasn’t there. I don’t mind, spoilers. A clone of Picard that he has to face his younger self.
00:43:37:18 – 00:43:55:15
Agent Palmer
I, I thought that was fine. But it just felt like. And then we kept having a data and another data, because why not? You know, let’s let’s did I, I thought we had been through all that with law. I thought we were done, and I thought we were done.
00:43:55:15 – 00:44:04:26
Edward O’Hare
It it it was too much. I think part of it, it does have the action. I mean, those battle scenes.
00:44:04:29 – 00:44:06:19
Agent Palmer
It does have the action. But you know what else it has?
00:44:06:21 – 00:44:13:53
Edward O’Hare
Those those those space battles are fantastic. I think the best dog fights since since Star Trek two.
00:44:13:57 – 00:44:35:26
Agent Palmer
But but I will say Picard or Patrick Stewart finally gets his, like, Shakespearian moment. Like some of those. Yes, some of, somebody was like, you know what? We haven’t given him like a good hamlet in a while. Like, let’s give him some he can chew on.
00:44:35:30 – 00:44:47:01
Edward O’Hare
Well, the thing that is funny is the that is funny watching back is that someone in 2002 thought that Tom Hardy would grow up to. To look like Patrick Stewart.
00:44:47:06 – 00:44:48:24
Agent Palmer
It’s true, it’s true.
00:44:48:33 – 00:44:59:01
Edward O’Hare
It’s probably in the theater. I remember looking at it like they they shot this all wrong. Why? Why is Picard’s younger clone a foot and a half taller than him? Yeah.
00:44:59:06 – 00:45:07:21
Agent Palmer
Also, when did Picard start to lose his hair? 12. Why? Why is this younger clone have no hair?
00:45:07:26 – 00:45:19:03
Edward O’Hare
Well, yeah, you could say he shaved his hair. Shaved it. So you know that that’s that’s, you know, that’s an easy write off. Plus plus plus. If he’s not bald, then you don’t know what’s supposed to be a clone. You know that? That’s just esthetically.
00:45:19:05 – 00:45:20:44
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:45:20:49 – 00:45:47:30
Edward O’Hare
But but I do, I do part of the reason that movie was written by John Logan. Yes, that John Logan, the, famous playwright and screenwriter, wrote, by that time he’d written Any Given Sunday. But he went on to write, some, Skype, to co-write Skyfall and Specter, some of the best bond movie, like one of the premier screenwriters in Hollywood today.
00:45:47:35 – 00:46:12:02
Edward O’Hare
And, he was very good friends with Brant Spiner. And they insisted on killing data, which I thought was a huge mistake because it was it felt like too much like they were trying to reflect Spock’s death of Wrath of Khan. And I didn’t feel like they earned it. And I think part of the compromise was, if you’re going to kill data, you can’t just kill him.
00:46:12:02 – 00:46:17:43
Edward O’Hare
You have to have a way for us to bring him back. And the their idea for that was before.
00:46:17:48 – 00:46:43:22
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean, I even with that, I think I wrote about it. It kind of makes it feel. It feels that way. Yeah, but it’s, I gotta say, for all its flaws, and there are quite a few, it’s a decent sendoff of this crew, especially because I’m trying to ignore the fact that I know they come back.
00:46:43:27 – 00:46:49:52
Agent Palmer
So, like, as a send off of. This could be the last time I see this group like, it’s it’s.
00:46:49:52 – 00:47:21:56
Edward O’Hare
Well, yeah. And also at that time, because enterprise was a prequel. So this was the last we saw of this of, you know, this is the furthest we got with Star Trek. Okay. You know, that was really kind of emotional for me, thinking, you know, real because, you know, and why I became very upset as were perturbed, I would say, as the Abrams movies.
00:47:21:56 – 00:47:34:03
Edward O’Hare
And his discovery was coming out and everything was just prequels, prequels, prequels. When the whole mission statement of the series is to boldly go, yeah, forward, backward. No.
00:47:34:08 – 00:47:36:03
Agent Palmer
No, we’re going to go back. No, we’re going to backward it.
00:47:36:17 – 00:47:41:40
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, we’re going to boldly go to all the places we’ve already seen. Yeah. I don’t know. I.
00:47:41:45 – 00:47:51:18
Agent Palmer
I, I got to say though, on a whole, yeah, I, I, I enjoyed my time with, with Picard and Kirk. Yes.
00:47:51:18 – 00:48:12:59
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. And, and that movie’s very bloated. There’s, there’s, the wedding scene was evidently monstrous, because, like, you had, you had Wil Wheaton come back as Wesley Crusher and and Whoopi Goldberg is going in, and they had whole moments in the wedding scene that are completely cut.
00:48:13:04 – 00:48:16:11
Agent Palmer
With their extended version is that.
00:48:16:16 – 00:48:20:24
Edward O’Hare
I don’t think there’s an extended version. I think you may be able to see large deleted scenes.
00:48:20:29 – 00:48:42:56
Agent Palmer
Gotcha. Yeah. But yeah, no, I, I, I don’t know, it was a, it was an okay sendoff. I think it was, it was a nice button. I’ll say that it was a true. All right. If I never see these people again. This is a decent sendoff. Yeah, except data, they didn’t didn’t have to kill them.
00:48:42:56 – 00:48:43:30
Edward O’Hare
Bastard.
00:48:43:34 – 00:48:47:59
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No, I so next up, then for me.
00:48:48:04 – 00:48:48:27
Edward O’Hare
00:48:50:02 – 00:48:58:01
Agent Palmer
I’m I’m. I’m throwing away my life of adventure, and traveling the galaxy for a space station.
00:48:58:06 – 00:49:00:30
Edward O’Hare
Star trek deep space nine.
00:49:00:30 – 00:49:05:09
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. Any, any tips there? As I.
00:49:05:14 – 00:49:24:56
Edward O’Hare
Well, I’m going to say it’s much darker, tonally. Emotionally, but also esthetically the sets, have, have dimmer lighting. They use.
00:49:25:01 – 00:49:28:00
Agent Palmer
Movie lighting, they use movie lighting.
00:49:28:05 – 00:49:34:59
Edward O’Hare
You know, but they, they use natural lighting. It’s meant to be a rundown station.
00:49:35:03 – 00:49:43:09
Agent Palmer
Okay. So it’s not like, every time we blow up an enterprise, we get a brand new one that’s shiny and, like, has the brightest lights we.
00:49:43:09 – 00:50:04:49
Edward O’Hare
Can possibly know. Okay. No. All right. No. I’m not. Yeah. I’m trying, I’m trying to. I’m trying to figure out how to tell you, but but, I will say also, it’s a little heavy. I was five years old when it came out, and it was, it. And for five year old, it it was a little over his head.
00:50:05:02 – 00:50:17:53
Edward O’Hare
Okay. And I didn’t really warm up to the series until, you know, probably season, season, late season three through season four. Okay. When that turning point happens.
00:50:17:53 – 00:50:20:10
Agent Palmer
And have you rewatched it since?
00:50:20:15 – 00:50:22:17
Edward O’Hare
I have I, and I guess you watched it.
00:50:22:23 – 00:50:26:04
Agent Palmer
Have did you enjoy what you missed? I guess.
00:50:26:15 – 00:50:53:13
Edward O’Hare
Yes, I did, okay, I did and the and there are some, you know, the first, the first couple of seasons it is mixed more so I think because they’re not traveling every week, it takes the writers to adjust to what kind of stories we can tell with this, with these characters. Yeah, it’s it’s based in.
00:50:53:27 – 00:51:01:23
Agent Palmer
You know, it’s not like, I mean, you can have people come visit the station, but at a certain point, it’s like these 12 people on the station.
00:51:01:28 – 00:51:02:15
Edward O’Hare
Not. Yeah, well.
00:51:02:22 – 00:51:04:01
Agent Palmer
I know there’s more, but.
00:51:04:06 – 00:51:22:32
Edward O’Hare
It’s it’s also the kind of thing where, they’re a peacekeeping force trying to be a stable presence as as a planetary government is reforming after survival, after overthrowing an occupation.
00:51:22:32 – 00:51:37:29
Agent Palmer
Okay. I mean, I like the idea that it’s going to tell me more about, I guess, the Federation, because all I know is the military might basically, given what we’ve seen. Yeah.
00:51:37:31 – 00:51:58:56
Edward O’Hare
And everything else, I would, I would say, one thing that Roddenberry probably would not have dared to do with the series that this, that, that Deep Space Nine really tackles is issues of religion and, warfare. Okay.
00:51:59:01 – 00:52:02:31
Agent Palmer
And and not we’re not talking about, like, light fare.
00:52:02:36 – 00:52:18:55
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. No. Okay. No, no, I mean, you know, in some sometimes as horrible as war might seem, it, it it can be it can be, a necessary evil.
00:52:19:00 – 00:52:33:00
Agent Palmer
All right. Well, I, I guess I’ll see you, you know, on the other side of 18, 18 seasons of television.
00:52:33:05 – 00:52:33:21
Edward O’Hare
Right.
00:52:33:28 – 00:52:37:17
Agent Palmer
Or are we or are we going to get together after, Voyager? Like.
00:52:37:22 – 00:53:01:06
Edward O’Hare
Probably. No, no, no, you know, we’ll get together. You know, you watch Deep Space Nine. Yeah. That’ll be heavy enough. We’ll talk about Deep Space Nine on its own. Okay? Okay. Okay. Yeah, yeah, we’ll talk again before you get to Voyager. Okay. I also think, you know, Deep Space Nine, starts to see the shift more to serialized stories.
00:53:01:06 – 00:53:19:22
Agent Palmer
All right, so here’s. So I’ll, I’ll let you get the last word on this game. You’ve read everything and we’ve had these discussions. You’ve read what I wrote. Am I going to like, where do you think right now? I haven’t even watched the first episode. Where do you think I’m going to put you? Place nine.
00:53:19:27 – 00:53:37:28
Edward O’Hare
I think it’s a very different show. Yeah. And I think it I think you’ll find it fits more into what you were looking for from next gen. Okay.
00:53:37:33 – 00:53:58:12
Agent Palmer
That said, this journey isn’t just about my first hand experience with all things Star Trek. It’s also a window into Ed’s fandom, as well as some other friends and previous guests who also happen to love Trek in its various forms. I bring this up because while you don’t have to go as far as I have, there is admittedly a lot of Trek still to be consumed.
00:53:58:24 – 00:54:19:01
Agent Palmer
I would urge you to take recommendations of shows, movies, music, or books from friends which aren’t necessarily your thing or are things you just didn’t get around to. Everyone is part of some fandom or another, but the thing that makes fandoms is community, and that’s really because it’s a group of people who can talk about the thing that they love.
00:54:19:01 – 00:54:38:16
Agent Palmer
And if you have friends that are a part of fandoms that you don’t necessarily subscribe to, you should take a chance. Perhaps you won’t like it, perhaps you will. It’s more of a spectrum than a binary. Yes, I liked it. No, I didn’t, but if you don’t watch, read, listen, or otherwise consume the thing, you’ll just never know.
00:54:38:21 – 00:54:57:30
Agent Palmer
And if it’s a recommendation from a friend, you probably like them enough to trust their judgment until you watch the thing and make the decision for yourself. At the minimum, you can lorded over your friend that they even suggested you watch that thing you didn’t like and make it a fun running gag for a few months or perhaps years, depending on how much you do or don’t like it.
00:54:57:30 – 00:55:15:53
Agent Palmer
Mileage of such a gag will obviously vary, so let me know what your friends suggest. And if you don’t know, maybe you should just ask. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 131. And now through the official business, The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion.
00:55:16:00 – 00:55:31:17
Agent Palmer
You can find all related ways to contact my buddy Ed and by self in the show notes. There you can find a link to Ed’s Fiverr where he’s available for voiceover work. And look, I suggest you give him some work. If you’re looking for voiceover work, he’s the talented man, and I don’t say that just because he’s a friend.
00:55:31:19 – 00:55:50:03
Agent Palmer
We’ve also worked together on some stuff beyond this podcast you’ve just heard. The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent Palmer, Law.com.
00:55:50:08 – 00:56:04:48
Agent Palmer
You.
00:56:04:53 – 00:56:28:34
Edward O’Hare
Space. The final frontier.
00:56:28:39 – 00:56:31:23
Agent Palmer
All right. And do you have one final question for me?
00:56:31:24 – 00:56:34:35
Edward O’Hare
What did you think of Arsenic and Old Lace?
00:56:34:39 – 00:56:50:11
Agent Palmer
I, I, I had a question for you, but for the listening audience, just know that Ed is the first guest to ever give me homework for the one final question, because, well.
00:56:50:12 – 00:57:03:54
Edward O’Hare
I heard you on our buddy, on our buddy Rao’s podcast, the movie Rob minute. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, yeah. For It’s a Wonderful Life. And it became very clear that.
00:57:03:59 – 00:57:07:58
Agent Palmer
I have deficiencies in the 1940s as far as films go.
00:57:08:03 – 00:57:24:11
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. But like, there’s certain things, you know, there’s a Jimmy Stewart starter pack, you know, and, and there are certain Frank Capra films that it’s just like, I don’t know how you could be a human being that works on this earth. And you haven’t seen some of these movies. Okay, so I, I, I picked one of them for you to watch.
00:57:24:11 – 00:57:33:57
Edward O’Hare
Yes. And I, you know, so, so I guess my big question is, will Arsenic and Old Lace be required viewing for you every Halloween now?
00:57:34:02 – 00:57:58:39
Agent Palmer
Oh, I mean, I do like it. I do like it. It’s got some very it’s, I mean, look, my my initial thought as I’m watching this film is I really need to ask Ed, like, if he was going to go crazy and think he was someone from history, who would he want to be?
00:57:58:44 – 00:58:02:10
Edward O’Hare
Be?
00:58:02:14 – 00:58:42:52
Agent Palmer
But I, I really liked it. I thought that, I wasn’t expecting, the fourth wall breaking quite as much as you get because you get a couple where he looks directly at the camera, he, like, just looks at you. Yes. And it’s just like, oh, okay. And I love the towards the end, the plot within the plot where he’s describing the play as the things are happening like my, my, my real thought about it is they don’t make media like this anymore.
00:58:42:56 – 00:58:54:54
Agent Palmer
Like it’s, it’s it doesn’t feel like that unique of a concept. And yet I haven’t seen anything like this in the last 80 years. Not really.
00:58:55:08 – 00:58:56:23
Edward O’Hare
No.
00:58:56:27 – 00:59:20:04
Agent Palmer
And and it’s sad because it’s, it’s almost I know I don’t want to. I mean, I guess I can put it on a pedestal and say that, like, it’s kind of like the Marx Brothers where, like the Marx Brothers, especially the, like maybe the first 4 or 5 films, there’s a joke every 30s and every joke is a bomb.
00:59:20:04 – 00:59:41:43
Agent Palmer
Like, they just they didn’t they just they there are no throwaway jokes in, like, coconuts or duck soup, like they’re all killers. And it feels like no one makes a comedy like that anymore. Everybody’s like, here are my 100 jokes for this hundred minute movie. And 50 of them are killers and the other 50 are throwaways. But I feel like I need to keep the jokes permitted up.
00:59:41:43 – 00:59:52:00
Agent Palmer
And it’s like we don’t make movies like that anymore. And so my, my first thought was, this is good. Why don’t we make this any more?
00:59:52:05 – 01:00:10:17
Edward O’Hare
Well, a part of it is this, you know, that was originally a play. In fact, part of the joke was Jonathan the the older brother who, you know, looks like Frankenstein. Yeah. On was played on, on the Broadway stage by Boris Karloff.
01:00:10:22 – 01:00:28:03
Edward O’Hare
Also in fact, in fact, they made this movie in 1940 and wouldn’t let Karloff take time off from Broadway to be in the movie. And they waited three years before they released the movie. So because they for it to finish its run.
01:00:28:08 – 01:00:29:30
Agent Palmer
Peter Laurie.
01:00:29:34 – 01:00:30:30
Edward O’Hare
Oh, Johnny.
01:00:30:44 – 01:00:45:17
Agent Palmer
Is is something I’ve only seen up up until this. Maybe I’ve seen him in bit parts here and there, but generally speaking, my experience with him is Mary Melody’s.
01:00:45:22 – 01:00:47:59
Edward O’Hare
Okay because.
01:00:48:04 – 01:01:07:51
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if he did his own voice, but they drew him to tea in Mary melodies. And so that was my experience with him. And so it’s weird to see him not animated and not a caricature of himself.
01:01:07:56 – 01:01:31:40
Edward O’Hare
Well, it’s that face and that voice. Yeah. You know, it’s very distinct character. I mean, if you if you really want a trip, go see one of the last movies he made in Germany, which is called M, where he plays, a serial killer. A serial child murderer. Okay. And that that is a frightening performance.
01:01:31:40 – 01:01:40:28
Edward O’Hare
But, when he came to America, I mean, he was a mainstay in a lot of Bogart movies. He’s in Casablanca, he’s in Maltese Falcon.
01:01:40:32 – 01:01:55:54
Agent Palmer
But just like, yeah, I, I guess I guess my question for you would be why there are other Capra movies that I haven’t seen. So what makes that one so stand out?
01:01:55:59 – 01:01:58:17
Edward O’Hare
To me, it’s it’s the funniest.
01:01:58:17 – 01:01:58:39
Agent Palmer
Okay.
01:01:58:53 – 01:02:26:31
Edward O’Hare
And I think it’s the funniest, a lot of his stuff, especially like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington or Mr. Deeds Ghost Town. I feel like there’s a moral that gets wrapped up in there, and Arsenic and Old Lace is just pure comedic fun. And even to the point where Cary Grant is actually not happy with his performance because he think it’s he thinks it’s too over the top.
01:02:26:31 – 01:02:28:37
Edward O’Hare
But I think it’s perfect.
01:02:28:37 – 01:02:31:24
Agent Palmer
I think, yeah, I think it’s. Yeah, it’s.
01:02:31:24 – 01:02:35:18
Edward O’Hare
Yeah. His facial expressions are never better.
01:02:35:27 – 01:02:55:11
Agent Palmer
Although I still it’s still it’s just it took me back the, the the looking down the barrel, the camera just I think he only does it twice, but just the fact that it happens, it’s just like I, you know, I expect that from Axel Foley. I don’t expect that from Cary Grant. Right. Like if someone.
01:02:55:15 – 01:03:02:20
Edward O’Hare
Okay, that’s it’s, you know, or even even just just opening an opening the cabinet, closing it. Yeah.
01:03:02:27 – 01:03:13:08
Agent Palmer
It it just it’s a, it’s a very good study in like, simple comedy. Like, it’s not, it’s not dumb comedy either, but it’s simple.
01:03:13:13 – 01:03:18:29
Edward O’Hare
Well, also like the Marx Brothers movies that, that you were talking about before, do you know, how do you know how they.
01:03:18:29 – 01:03:28:20
Agent Palmer
Yeah, those role plays first. I mean, they they honed their craft like, yeah, that’s done. The vaudeville stage is basically these are the jokes. All that worked. Let’s put them in the movies.
01:03:28:30 – 01:03:53:28
Edward O’Hare
We’ll all will also even, even after they started movies and weren’t and were to stage act, they, they would take the movie out on the road before they shot it and, and would plan, okay, here’s where the laugh is and here’s how long we have to wait before we start the next joke. Yeah, and that’s why those movies are really built to be watched with an audience.
01:03:53:33 – 01:04:05:35
Edward O’Hare
And no one, no studio, is going to allow you the time or the care or even or, you know, and no, no, director, you can get a think to try to do that.
01:04:05:39 – 01:04:07:39
Agent Palmer
No, no, no.
01:04:07:43 – 01:04:09:43
Edward O’Hare
Not anymore for modern comedy.
01:04:09:48 – 01:04:18:44
Agent Palmer
Not anymore. So I guess the the question is, who would you be? Would you want to be a former president?
01:04:18:49 – 01:04:40:10
Edward O’Hare
If, George, I mean, you know, Teddy Roosevelt, that that’s I’d always wanted to direct a stage version of this. And. Yeah, yeah, to Teddy is the most fun character.
01:04:40:14 – 01:05:00:14
Edward O’Hare
Yeah, I guess, but to me, to me, it’s this movie is required viewing, and I, I would say every Halloween I try to watch either that or Abbott and Costello Meets Frankenstein, one of the two. Okay. You know, if if you’re not, if you’re not, you know, knee deep in an 80 year movie marathon.
01:05:00:19 – 01:05:17:18
Agent Palmer
I was always, you know, partial to doing, like, The Evil Dead, and then, you know, you have to mix it up. So I always threw in, like, dead alive because, or whatever the hell it was. I don’t remember what it was originally called, but Peter Jackson’s.
01:05:17:22 – 01:05:18:13
Edward O’Hare
You know, dead alive.
01:05:18:20 – 01:05:21:54
Agent Palmer
Dead alive. No, but there was another title for it as well.
01:05:21:59 – 01:05:22:35
Edward O’Hare
Oh, okay.
01:05:22:37 – 01:05:50:37
Agent Palmer
Which I know some people know it as, but, like. Yeah, that’s I you know what? I would probably add this to, to the, to the crop of thing. I mean, the problem with Halloween is that you could if you wanted to Halloween maybe, maybe even more so than Christmas, have some of the best television specials as far as like made for the holiday episodes.
01:05:50:37 – 01:05:55:21
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Of TV it might be the best holiday for that kind of stuff.
01:05:55:26 – 01:06:01:43
Edward O’Hare
Best and the worst.
01:06:01:47 – 01:06:08:07
Edward O’Hare
He. Yeah. Kiss everybody.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).