Agent Palmer

For the inaugural episode of The Palmer Files Podcast, guest (and friend of the host) Bill Sweeney from The Wicked Theory Podcast and I discuss The Dip: When to Quit and When to Stick by Seth Godin.

Throughout the discussion we cover:

• Process (a lot and often)
• Quitting vs Not Starting
• Decision Making
• The opposite of quitting and Prioritization
• Follow Through and Unfinished Business
• Learning from Failure
• Enjoying the journey (aka for the love of the process)
• Getting to the top and the scarcity of success
• Being a workaholic vs. Not being one

Lastly, this book is for decision-makers, and in life, in some way or another we are all decision-makers, so this book is for everyone, but its application may change depending on your role in any given situation.

Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode

WickedTheory.com

My post on The Dip written before my conversation with Bill for this podcast, in case you were wondering…

The Dip: A Little Book That Teaches You When to Quit (and When to Stick) by Seth Godin
The War of Art by Steven Pressfield
Wicked Theory Podcast The Roast of Bill Sweeney

Nocturnal Wanderings by Jason Zapata

You can also hear more Palmer in the meantime on Our Liner Notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and my new gig as co-host of The Podcast Digest with Dan Lizette.

Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.

–End Show Notes Transmission–

–Begin Transcription–

00;00;00;14 – 00;00;55;08
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com, a recommendation about Amazon Prime’s docu series This is Football, which is about soccer, and a book review that I’ll get to in a minute. This is the Palmer Files episode one with guest Bill Sweeney, where we talk about the dip by Seth Godin decision making and things get meta. Let’s do the show.

00;01;01;09 – 00;01;20;07
Agent Palmer
Hello there and welcome. This is the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known on the Internet as Agent Palmer, and this is my podcast. Before I get into our first guest in topic, if you are familiar with my voice, you’ve probably been waiting for this podcast to happen for a while now. And if you don’t recognize my voice, let me explain.

00;01;20;16 – 00;01;48;05
Agent Palmer
For the last eight years, I’ve been primarily a blogger and I write about anything from book and movie reviews, sports and other topics of interest. In that time, I developed an online persona, Agent Palmer, that evolved into me being a contact and podcast guest and producer to earn a moniker from this week’s guest, Bill Sweeney and my circle of friends as a proxy caster because I didn’t need my own show, I had theirs or yours is the line really is.

00;01;48;28 – 00;02;08;15
Agent Palmer
I finally started this podcast because I enjoyed creating my voice on the blog and now it’s time to take that voice from the digital page to the audio form. I hope to inspire, educate and entertain you with people I respect and admire, and I hope our conversation ins are as enlightening to you as they are to me. So enough about me.

00;02;08;25 – 00;02;28;02
Agent Palmer
The first guest is, as I mentioned, Bill Sweeney of the Wicked Theory podcast, and we discussed the dip. Things get better because it’s a book about decision making by Seth Godin that I was reading while deciding whether or not to even do this show, which we will get into. Why? Bill Sweeney. He’s a good friend and a great guest.

00;02;28;03 – 00;02;54;27
Agent Palmer
We first met digitally on Twitter when we were some of the early guests on a show that unfortunately no longer exists called The Stranger Conversations with host Grant Markham. Since then, he’s brought his podcast to my house. We took a road trip together to Michigan, and we become friends and creative minds that wonder of wonders like to talk about the creative process as much as we enjoy completing the endeavors themselves, which is why he was a no brainer to discuss this book.

00;02;56;01 – 00;03;15;10
Agent Palmer
If you wish to tweet along, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer, the show at the Palmer Files and Bill at Wicked Theory. Feel free to email the show at the Palmer files at gmail.com if you prefer. And don’t forget to visit Agent Palmer dot com and Wicked Theory dot com. For more on myself and Bill and the things that we actually did accomplish.

00;03;15;18 – 00;03;25;19
Agent Palmer
Without further ado, here we go.

00;03;28;01 – 00;03;33;13
Agent Palmer
Bill, why did you recommend this book to me?

00;03;33;24 – 00;03;57;15
Bill Sweeney
Well, if I was a little while ago, so but if I remember correctly, we were having a conversation, I think, about I don’t know if it was a specific project or it was just like projects in general and like, why we finish them, We start them or don’t, or about being able to have like perspective towards them. I guess I’m not really 100%.

00;03;57;15 – 00;04;03;06
Bill Sweeney
I think you remember this a little better than I do. If there was a super specific thing.

00;04;03;21 – 00;04;11;02
Agent Palmer
Well, I’ve been talking about this particular podcast for probably a year and a half or two years.

00;04;11;14 – 00;04;11;26
Bill Sweeney
Right.

00;04;11;26 – 00;04;34;16
Agent Palmer
And at some point in the last I don’t know, in the more recently I was telling you that I was, you know, thinking about this. And, you know, I still got the blog, but then I listed like six or seven like other either things I’m working projects I’m working on or potential project. And you were like, Well, hold on there.

00;04;34;16 – 00;04;58;03
Agent Palmer
Like, right and right. And I will tell you, I just made a note of it. And then the first thing that popped into my head when I read this book and we’ll get into like what it’s about and stuff, but like the first thing that popped up was, should I really be doing a podcast? Just. Like, I mean, it’s like it came up as part of the conversation that got me to the book, but like.

00;04;58;15 – 00;04;59;22
Bill Sweeney
Well, go ahead.

00;04;59;29 – 00;05;03;11
Agent Palmer
It’s like, wait, should I like, is that.

00;05;04;07 – 00;05;28;11
Bill Sweeney
Well, I think that’s a natural reaction from reading a book like this, is that it makes you kind of question, you know, your the processes and why you do what you do. And, you know, if your it makes you question your level of what’s success and what’s kind of like banging your head against the wall and whether or not these things are worth it sometimes.

00;05;28;25 – 00;05;56;14
Bill Sweeney
So, yeah, I mean, I think that’s a valid reaction while going through it because, you know, it’s talking about in the dip talks about the fact that in the middle of, you know, these projects or jobs or tasks or anything you want to achieve that there’s usually a point where, you know, it seems like it’s a failure. But, you know, it’s a good chance if you ride it out, you might hit success.

00;05;56;23 – 00;06;11;02
Bill Sweeney
So it’s about questioning the whole process of that. So to kind of look at the open this book and go, Oh, I have an endeavor coming up. Well, you know, do I question it in total or is this going to help me at some point when I think it’s I’m about to bust?

00;06;11;02 – 00;06;34;05
Agent Palmer
Well, and then it also talks about the idea of, well, winners know when to quit, but winners also know when not to start. So, I mean, I’ve said all along I’ve maintained through the few people that I’ve had conversations about this show with that I’m not giving up the blog. And as I’m reading through this book, it’s like winners know what to get rid of.

00;06;34;05 – 00;06;59;20
Agent Palmer
And like, I’m like, No, absolutely. I’m going to keep doing this one thing and throw this other thing on top of it. And, you know, he talks about, you know, one of the quotes from the book is you really can’t try to do everything, especially if you intend to be the best in the world. And then he goes on to talk about best being subjective, and that’s fine.

00;07;00;02 – 00;07;15;09
Agent Palmer
But I’m basically attempting to do everything kind of sort of in doing two really huge things at the same time. So maybe what we’ve learned is I shouldn’t do this well.

00;07;15;27 – 00;07;45;28
Bill Sweeney
So it’s funny that we that because it’s it forces you to kind of get real in the sense or thinking about it in abstracts sometimes that we both come away with different kind of lessons. We pull away from this book that are not necessarily the lessons that the book is trying to lay out. It’s like because very much I was like looking forward to having to just talk about the book because on a second reading of it, it was like, now I kind of started to see the patterns in me in other ways.

00;07;46;08 – 00;08;14;20
Bill Sweeney
So while the DEP talks about like getting out, while it’s getting as good and sometimes like not starting the, the not starting thing though, I feel like has been my real problem. Like, sure. Like I’ll, my instinct a lot of times is to kind of just kind of pull out while while the while the project is ramping you know kind of thing.

00;08;14;20 – 00;08;32;05
Bill Sweeney
But I don’t feel that as much anymore. Once the wheels get going, that anxiety of like, oh, maybe I should just abandon this, maybe I should just pull out. This was crazy. This was stupid to start this like you to get that a little more often, but not as much. But the thing of, like, like, just don’t even.

00;08;32;10 – 00;08;57;18
Bill Sweeney
Don’t even bother. Don’t get started. Like you only mean, like, that’s a huge task that seems, you know, Herculean. You’re not going to pull that off. You know what I mean? Like, he’s got a thing that, you know, the opposite. Because. Because the book talks about how, like, quitting can be a good thing. And to just kind of take that as a it’s fine and it’s fair you don’t lose.

00;08;57;18 – 00;09;18;12
Bill Sweeney
And like, I’ve never had a problem with quitting. Like you know what he means it quitting a project or quitting before get started. That’s a tremendous release of pressure for me. The challenge for me is the whole staying with it and and, you know, kind of taking it on head first. So when he’s well, he’s got a thing in there that’s like the opposite of quitting.

00;09;18;12 – 00;09;41;20
Bill Sweeney
Isn’t waiting around that The opposite of quitting is rededication. And that’s the thing that I’m not good at. Like he says, the opposite of quitting is an invigorated new strategy designed to break the problem apart. And that’s the thing that I don’t do. A lot of times I’ll just kind of get beat up by like, Oh, this isn’t working or This isn’t what I thought it would be.

00;09;42;00 – 00;10;05;03
Bill Sweeney
And I look for the exit instead of maybe saying more often, well, double down a little bit and get your head straight on it. Recommit and then see where that takes you and then maybe quit. But I just kind of you know what I mean? And so it’s it’s just too far of just kind of like quitting without ever rededicating or just not getting started at all, you know?

00;10;05;05 – 00;10;31;23
Agent Palmer
Well, and it’s he also says, like, it’s easy to wring your hands about becoming a failure. Quitting smart is a great way to avoid failure because you’re not starting something you’re going to fail at. But I think there’s a lot of unknowns. And he talks about motivation and he talks about process. And he goes through the idea that, you know, at the very beginning of any project, it’s really exciting.

00;10;32;06 – 00;10;59;20
Agent Palmer
And then, you know, it’s whether it’s learning something new and like, you know, then all of a sudden you go from like easy and beginner to like moderate and it gets a little bit harder. And then when you when you master moderate, it gets really hard. Mm hmm. Well, some people quit there. And I understand the idea of, well, if you can’t get through to the hard stuff to get to the success or the end, why bother starting to begin with?

00;11;00;03 – 00;11;16;05
Agent Palmer
And it did make it like shit. Like, do I start to show like, yeah, it really became because I mean, I read it while I was preparing to do this and it became like.

00;11;16;15 – 00;11;31;07
Bill Sweeney
Well, that’s a very we’re a very mettam moment right now with you where it’s like, okay, the first episode I’m going to be talking about the idea of this book, and I know that, but the book is maybe, maybe question at a certain point whether or not to do the show itself. It’s a snake eating its own tail.

00;11;31;16 – 00;11;56;15
Agent Palmer
It really I mean, and it but, but I did it because I feel like it was in him saying that best is subjective. I can do the best podcast I can do and still maintain the best blog that I can do. And I feel like those two things are within my control. And but it’s hard because then I made the decision to do this recording tonight.

00;11;56;15 – 00;12;18;25
Agent Palmer
Obviously I’m doing this and I’m keeping my blog as people will know. But then I started thinking about the other ancillary projects. I’m helping so-and-so with this, I’m helping so-and-so with that. And it’s like, All right, well, clearly something has to give. I’m doing all these things. And so what is the thing that gives in? To be fair, I actually haven’t made that decision yet.

00;12;19;10 – 00;12;25;05
Agent Palmer
But because of this book, right, I’m aware something has to give. Like I’ve at least gotten there.

00;12;25;17 – 00;12;51;06
Bill Sweeney
Yeah, because he talks about that a lot too. How? Like, you know, part of that rededication in a way is about saying, well, what is all this? What else am I doing in other ways and projects or whatever that could be pulling my attention in my time away that’s keeping me from achieving this, you know, this time that I need to spend on this thing or this, you know, this dedication, this you know, this energy, you know, upkeep.

00;12;51;16 – 00;13;17;29
Bill Sweeney
And so for a guy like you who actually you know, like you said, does do a fair amount of helping others in certain fields and has multiple things kind of blooming at all times that are interdependent on other people or other people or their favors or, you know, you’re helping or something. There’s a certain amount of like you have to follow through.

00;13;18;17 – 00;13;30;08
Bill Sweeney
So I know this is like one of these sessions where it’s like, okay, I’m going to talk about me for a little bit and you’re going to about use a little bit because that’s what’s happening right now. But immediately, like listening to you talk about you, it makes me think about me and, you know, show me on my side.

00;13;30;08 – 00;13;53;29
Bill Sweeney
Like because most of my projects are internal and there’s no real hard goal like he talks about in this book, Like it’s like, you know, it’s not so much like, Oh, be the best, but you want to do the best that you can. Do you want to kind of like achieve it. You want to finish it. You want to you want to be able to have a thing done at the end, or you can kind of be personally proud of, even if it doesn’t achieve, you know, media greatness or something.

00;13;54;10 – 00;14;12;25
Bill Sweeney
You know what I mean? But for me, because like, I think anyway, a lot of my stuff doesn’t depend on anybody else. There’s no deadline, there’s no pressure. I don’t have a trained follow through in a way where it’s like, All right, I don’t have to there’s no there’s no nothing hanging over my head to push me along in a way like, you know.

00;14;12;25 – 00;14;33;12
Agent Palmer
But it does work both ways. I feel like in your scenario, it’s it’s easier to quit. Not that you will, but it’s easier to quit because there’s nothing around you. So it’s like, All right, well, that’s not going anywhere. I’m just not going to do that anymore. Whereas for me, it’s harder to quit. It’s not saying that in either scenario, we should or shouldn’t quit.

00;14;33;12 – 00;14;57;28
Agent Palmer
That’s right. It’s up for you know, you have to look at it and make a decision. But I’m kind of tied to not quitting more often because it’s like, Oh, well, that person’s counting on me and this person is counting on me and that person’s counting on me. And it it’s almost weird because, like, you and I are two completely different places, but I wouldn’t trade with you because it doesn’t make it any easier.

00;14;57;29 – 00;15;10;11
Agent Palmer
Like, the only way it could be easy is if, like you and I both had 50% of our projects were counting on other people and 50% weren’t, and they would be like, All right, cool. Like, I know how I can handle this.

00;15;10;24 – 00;15;33;26
Bill Sweeney
Right? Right. I’ll tell you from being on the side that I’m on, it’s miserable. Like. Like, like because here’s the thing. Like, at least, like, even if you’re like, even if you’re only getting, like, half of these little projects done, let’s say, right for you on your scale and all that that you’ve got those done. And you know what I mean?

00;15;33;26 – 00;16;10;00
Bill Sweeney
Whereas for me, it’s a lot of like, Oh, that’s an I don’t think they were finished. There’s another thing and they were finished. There’s another thing I never finished. There’s nothing I didn’t follow through because and this sometimes will go because I’m a creative will go back to what people can pick up from another book called The War of Art, and that talks about resistance and, you know, why we why we say no, why we hold back, why we don’t finish things and the different forms it can take you.

00;16;10;04 – 00;16;23;15
Bill Sweeney
I mean, making excuses or fear of success or whatever, whatever it could be, because there’s a very different things. But they all kind of go in there in a breath of resistance, and it’s an invisible thing that sometimes will keep you from finishing things well.

00;16;23;15 – 00;16;44;24
Agent Palmer
But it’s also hard on the other side because it’s like, Well, that’s not done. But I did my part and I mean, because that’s where it’s, it’s a hard thing where it’s like, okay, I did my part, but the project’s not done and I have no control over the rest of it. But like, if it was never going to get done, why would I have?

00;16;45;13 – 00;16;47;23
Agent Palmer
Why did my part matter? Yeah, right.

00;16;47;26 – 00;16;50;17
Bill Sweeney
So why did I, why did I invest anything in that? Yeah.

00;16;50;18 – 00;17;14;20
Agent Palmer
And, and I’ve been a part of I, I mean I’ve been a part of podcasts that are no longer around. Mm hmm. I don’t have remorse or regret over, like, Oh, I shouldn’t have put all this time into that show. And I’m not picking on anybody, by the way. It’s just it’s just things happen and I understand it.

00;17;15;11 – 00;17;45;27
Agent Palmer
But and it’s the one thing that’s kind of missing from Golden’s book doesn’t talk about a failure as a learning experience. Yeah, he it’s the one thing in the whole book that seems to be missing. He’s got it where I’m completely on board with. If you don’t think you can handle the hard stuff, maybe not starting at all is the smart play, but he doesn’t talk about what you learn from false starts.

00;17;46;24 – 00;18;13;00
Agent Palmer
And I’m like, I don’t really want to make like this too meta. Although I knew this was going to be meta. Like, Yeah, the things I’ve learned from the podcast that I helped start, that didn’t happen. And then I jumped on board and was behind the scenes with him. Whether I’m a part of them or not. And whatever you consider a failure or a flop or just a moving on and a parting of ways, all of that led me to here.

00;18;14;06 – 00;18;28;29
Agent Palmer
So I’ve learned from all of those things, which is why I’m doing what I’m doing, whatever that is. Right. And and that’s it’s the only thing that’s missing. Now, he does say towards the end something about like if it’s scary, maybe it’s worth looking into.

00;18;29;09 – 00;18;30;01
Bill Sweeney
Right? Yeah.

00;18;31;04 – 00;18;40;27
Agent Palmer
But it’s that statement seemed like almost counterintuitive to the whole book, which is like, well, if you’re not going to go through with it, don’t do it.

00;18;41;29 – 00;18;59;22
Bill Sweeney
Right. Well, that’s the that’s the little bit of the nugget of the book is that the mantra of the book in a lot of ways is like, don’t do it. If you don’t think you can do it and only do it if you think you can be top dog. But along the way, be sharp enough to know if it ain’t going to work out and get out while the getting’s good.

00;19;00;09 – 00;19;16;06
Bill Sweeney
So it’s a little bit of this kind of like, okay, they feel almost contradictory thoughts, but they are. I think that’s the case is certainly. But they all kind of like so independent of each other where it’s like you got to kind of swim in that headspace all the time. Yeah.

00;19;16;06 – 00;19;42;16
Agent Palmer
I mean, he makes it feel like a video game almost where like he makes it feel like a video game that doesn’t have built in save points. You have to manually save. Okay. Because if, if, if the project you’ve got has built in save points, then you have then you just reach that next point and then decide whether to go on again.

00;19;43;03 – 00;19;54;23
Agent Palmer
What Godin is saying is you need to manually choose when the save point is and then decide whether to continue it’s on you, not the project. Like, I mean, well.

00;19;54;26 – 00;20;10;17
Bill Sweeney
Yeah, the the book is about trying to show you how to spot this stuff in the distance as it’s approaching and then hopefully, you know, you can get out with it getting good because there’s even parts of the book where like some of the examples he uses is about like shifting up like a career, even just a basic career.

00;20;10;17 – 00;20;34;00
Bill Sweeney
Like if you’re not feeling like you’re getting any growth, you know, I mean, because a lot of it is the book is laid out in his examples and he’s kind of a metaphor, you know, examples and so like, you know, Dave, Dave’s got a job. It’s not that great. Bah bah bah bah bah. You know, And so he’s talking in a career context where that’s just in one moment, you know what I mean?

00;20;34;00 – 00;21;08;29
Bill Sweeney
And then it’s about taking the idea of a dip and putting it on any situation in a way. But those situations in and of themselves seem very different. Like, you know, I mean, so it’s like I’m trying to read this book and take somebody’s metaphors and put them into a like, how does this apply to me and what I do and how does this apply to like, okay, my podcast experience per se, because it was a thing where like I had to take a look at what I was doing with my show and kind of like get real about it a little bit and say like, Well, I’m enjoying the hang, but like, you know,

00;21;08;29 – 00;21;29;24
Bill Sweeney
we’re not getting any new ears, you know, zero growth, you know, I mean, and I’m only doing it for fun, but the growth, even on a small level like should be part of it like and I really felt like that’s part of it, even if it’s at a snail’s pace, anything that’s ticking up would have been a good sign.

00;21;29;24 – 00;22;02;24
Bill Sweeney
Like, you know, I mean, and even though, like, doing the best I could with what I had, it didn’t feel like that was getting it anywhere. And so when the writing kind of was starting to be on the wall for the show itself behind the scenes and, you know, and as trying to get people together on a schedule and stuff like that, it was just like, well, maybe, you know, this is the moment, you know, if it’s going to go off the rail, let’s just let it go off the rail, because that was me being real about the moment, you know, I was in the dip, for lack of a better term.

00;22;02;24 – 00;22;16;18
Bill Sweeney
And it was like kind of saying, well, what is this moment here? This is either like a point where I can take the break and make a shift, much like the career kind of thing he was talking about in the book, where the guy, Dave kind of comes into the boss and he’s like, Look, I’m ready to walk away.

00;22;16;18 – 00;22;29;09
Bill Sweeney
But before I do, I’d like to take one big swing at this idea. I had, and maybe you guys will be into it and sound like the guy pitches it. The company is like, Oh, we love it. We’ll actually give you a raise and put you in charge of that. Like you only mean and this kind of thing.

00;22;29;09 – 00;22;41;22
Bill Sweeney
So it works out for him. So the ideally is like, you know, with my podcast this kind of like say, okay, let’s take it off the burner where it’s kind of like taste a soup, How’s how, how’s it shaping up? What am I going to add?

00;22;41;22 – 00;22;50;12
Agent Palmer
The way this breaks down for anybody not familiar with the Wicked Theory podcast? And if I go too far, Bill, by all means shut.

00;22;50;12 – 00;22;51;01
Bill Sweeney
Your write down.

00;22;51;28 – 00;23;23;10
Agent Palmer
Is that from about episode 165 or even maybe 150 outnot counting 150 itself, because that was an anniversary episode of sorts from about 151 through 199, it was stagnating. We there was a formula and it was just happening like we were filling in the formula and occasionally there would be one or two things that popped up, but they were never knew.

00;23;23;10 – 00;23;55;15
Agent Palmer
It was like, Oh, we’ve got a a movie review which had popped up prior in other times. So, you know, to be fair, it was a bombshell to me at two like during the roast when you were like at the end of it, when you were like, okay, so we’re not going to be back next week. And I was like, Well, okay, like I and, and completely behind the scenes, I had actually been pushing you before the roast for like, Oh, we’ll take a break, take a break, take a step back.

00;23;55;15 – 00;24;30;10
Agent Palmer
Like four weeks, Like just take a month off. Whatever, whatever. And you and I get this from reading the book, but knowing you and also just general and, and podcast thing, just like blogging or anything else, once you stop something and you lose that momentum, right? That momentum is very important to hold on to. And so I know for you it wasn’t the stopping that was the hard part or even the decision to stop it was getting back going again.

00;24;30;10 – 00;24;53;27
Agent Palmer
It was the rededication that you were talking about earlier that was like the hardest part because what? Well, we were it’s you know, I’ll say we because I was part of the show. It’s not like we weren’t dedicated to it before. So if you take a break, what does rededication mean? Because it’s it’s you’re not applying something new.

00;24;54;03 – 00;25;09;13
Agent Palmer
You need to come at it from a completely different angle. And so who’s to say where it goes from here? You know, and that’s one of the hard part is you don’t know or.

00;25;09;14 – 00;25;37;00
Bill Sweeney
Right. Well, here’s the thing. You’re not supposed and and the lesson that I know I’m walking, that I’ve kind of learned it and realize and know that I’m walking into is that is a problematic area because, you know, there’s still no plan. I mean, if we’re going to be honest about it, all I knew was that it kind of had to put the brakes on it and and reconsider what’s going on and what I’m doing and what I want to do.

00;25;37;00 – 00;26;00;18
Bill Sweeney
And the problem is that those answers still haven’t come in a crystal clear way where it’s like, okay, I’m going to like some people are lucky enough to have more clarity on this thing. So it’s like, okay, you know, somebody else’s hands. Maybe it’s, you know, I’m going to stop the show, take a break. Two weeks, come back, new show, new format that that that that and everything like is kind of like well considered and prepped for.

00;26;01;06 – 00;26;41;06
Bill Sweeney
And as much as I spend time thinking on these things you know this is the fact that that podcast came out every week for 200 episodes almost on time every every frickin time is an achievement in and of itself for me that like I look back on and go, Wow, Because only because of my propensity to kind of like slack off or kind of like, oh, that’s, you know, let something become a bigger problem because then like, subconsciously, it’s like, all right, that’s going to give me breathing room.

00;26;41;06 – 00;27;07;20
Bill Sweeney
I don’t have to worry about it this week. So when we hit 200, the one thing I knew in the back of my head is a while, two things, but a that I don’t know what the plan is going forward necessarily. I mean, I have some ideas, but nothing’s locked like, you know, and like, Oh, that’s it, you know, and be that like, I knew that if it was more than a couple of weeks, it was going to be like this bumpy return, which is what it’s turned into, if I’m being honest about myself and the show and trying to maintain a rhythm with it.

00;27;08;04 – 00;27;19;05
Bill Sweeney
I knew if I didn’t stay on a schedule, if I didn’t just kind of turn around and come back and like, do some crazy thing where it’s like, Oh, it’s just me, I’m ranting into the mic. Then it was going to get off kilter, which is where it’s at right now.

00;27;19;25 – 00;27;49;23
Agent Palmer
So I will give I’ve got two points to to that. First, I understand the idea of the 200 episodes being a milestone in itself. Personally, I spent one semester abroad in high school and journaled every day of that three months, four months, three months, whatever it was, right every day. Now this is me is like a 15, 16 year old.

00;27;49;23 – 00;28;14;11
Agent Palmer
Whatever. I had started and attempted a journal slash diary, whatever you want to call it before, and I’d never made it past couple days like never in my life. Now I understand this is an inter like a special circumstance. I’m in another country, you know, but there’s nothing to say that there was anything more different about me writing than than anything else.

00;28;14;17 – 00;28;38;12
Agent Palmer
And I look back and go until I started my blog that had been the most regular writing I had ever done, period. And consistently. Now I’ve got a blog. And even if you look at the dates, when you go back to like the very early stuff, I was not consistent at all. It’s only been in the last two or three years that I’ve been consistent, but that consistency is huge internally.

00;28;38;12 – 00;29;11;08
Agent Palmer
So I understand. And then and then it goes back to the momentum thing. But I also feel like part of your rededication is to literally use your existing feed as a petri dish and try an episode like this and try an episode like that and see what works and what reactions you get because if you weren’t very dedicated to it, because I’ll use his language, you would either have completely folded up or you would have just gone back to doing the same old thing.

00;29;11;08 – 00;29;47;07
Agent Palmer
You’re you’re trying new things in a way to find out what will work and yeah, become the best at what you can be. And I also wanted to talk about the fact that you and I personally, unrelated to my blog, your show or any projects you and I love to talk about process, Right. And this book, I couldn’t have expected anyone else to ever like suggest I read this book.

00;29;47;25 – 00;30;09;02
Agent Palmer
Like it just feels like, oh, of course I’m only a couple pages and I’m like, Of course this is the one, bill. But the process is important to some people. Other people don’t care. It’s like, Oh great, I’ve got this book other people care about. Like, did you outline it? How many drafts were there? Like how much? But yeah, it depends.

00;30;09;02 – 00;30;27;22
Agent Palmer
And for the people that pay attention to process, their own process is the most important part. So for you and me, it is like our process is special. It’s not necessarily about the end product, it’s also about how we got there.

00;30;28;17 – 00;30;53;00
Bill Sweeney
Well, let’s the thing it’s about, there is a love of the game, you know what I mean is that you’re just like, well, when you when when it’s a thing about you know, enjoy being so into process that when you’re involved in the actual process that you’re like this, this, this there’s books about process and then this is about thinking about process.

00;30;53;21 – 00;31;11;09
Bill Sweeney
Like, you know, I mean, like this is almost like esoteric, this kind of a concept. The dip in comparison to something that’s more mechanical like you were mentioning like, you know, it’s like, okay, here’s how you do an outline and stuff. And this is almost like a bigger this is like even though it’s a small book, it’s like a bigger idea, it’s a broader picture.

00;31;11;09 – 00;31;32;08
Bill Sweeney
It’s like thinking outside the box. Like it’s about why we do what we do as opposed to like how to do what you want to do. You know, this is which is why this kind of a approach, an idea of the dip kind of applies to multiple things. And like the examples you can give are so vast and wide, but you.

00;31;32;08 – 00;31;53;26
Agent Palmer
Know, and it works out that I’m convinced that if you read this book, one of his examples will speak directly to you at minimum. I mean, it’s just he covers so many different scenarios from personal projects, right to work projects and like everything you could possibly hobbies even, and, you know, like learning.

00;31;53;28 – 00;32;13;28
Bill Sweeney
Relationships this this graph, this this chart, this this symbol of the dip itself when he shows it as a line and how it works, you know, is a relationship. This is this is the beginning when it’s all good and gravy and then it gets really pretty freaking cool, you know what I mean? And then it does this kind of point, you know, and this can be anywhere.

00;32;13;28 – 00;32;31;15
Bill Sweeney
This can be like around about a year, two years, two months, But whatever, you kind of hit this little point where it’s like, what is this? And then if you slog through, ideally it should kind of pick up again and again and then be great. And then then you get married and you just love each other every day forever.

00;32;31;15 – 00;32;34;25
Bill Sweeney
It’s amazing all the time in contemporary culture.

00;32;34;25 – 00;32;48;22
Agent Palmer
That little bit before the dip, which this book is focused on, is the honeymoon period. And yeah, and that when you’re talking colloquially with relationships, that’s what we’re talking about, the honeymoon period and when the honeymoon period is over, post honeymoon.

00;32;48;22 – 00;32;49;04
Bill Sweeney
But go ahead.

00;32;49;14 – 00;32;57;19
Agent Palmer
Well, the dip happens post honeymoon. It happens when the honeymoon is over, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t sunny days ahead, so to speak.

00;32;57;28 – 00;33;22;01
Bill Sweeney
And, well, the dip is the long slog between starting and mastering. That is basically it’s that line right here that I have highlighted, and that’s the thing that’s applicable to anything. You know, the dip is like when you start learning how to play baseball and then the mastery comes later. But at the the dip itself is that point, right where you want to give up and quit, you know, I mean, where you’re just like, why?

00;33;22;01 – 00;33;23;01
Bill Sweeney
Why am I fighting?

00;33;23;20 – 00;33;50;28
Agent Palmer
And that long process in between is what creates scarcity. And as he discusses in the book at length, one of the other things he talked about is scarcity. Makes being at the top worth something. If everybody can get to the top, it’s it. Then it’s a level playing field, like nobody wants to be the best of being everyone else, because then you’re just the same as everyone else.

00;33;51;11 – 00;33;55;27
Agent Palmer
And so the dip is the line of demarcation.

00;33;56;01 – 00;34;25;10
Bill Sweeney
Here’s the thing he’s got he’s got a point here, right? The difference between a mediocre tennis player and regional champion isn’t always the talent. It’s that it’s the ability to push through the moments where it’s just easier to quit. And I think that’s the thing for me, that is the ultimate takeaway. And with a book like this, I think it’s a thing where, you know, it’s about keeping your eyes out for it and the the hard and fast lessons that are even numbered at near the end.

00;34;25;15 – 00;34;59;20
Bill Sweeney
Like, you know, there’s only a few of them of how to spot the dip, you know, how to how to because the book is not about necessarily like preventing it, you know, or like, you know, seven secrets of breaking out of it. Like, like it’s how other books like, you know, how to kind of break out of writer’s block like, you know, I mean, these kinds of like real hard tips that are applicable or supposed to be anyway very easily And broadly, this is, you know, a little bit of generalities and you have to find how these things apply to you.

00;34;59;27 – 00;35;49;18
Agent Palmer
There’s a there’s a very subtle philosophical piece to this book, which is about value and progress because value and progress are not concrete. They mean different things to different people. And it’s the very reason that so much of this book is abstract. And he uses examples in hyperbole because there’s no way he can a talk about your specifics and ARIO and B, there’s no right answer you could use as an example, Bill and I could be in the same exact spot with the same exact progress, value and everything else.

00;35;49;18 – 00;36;01;03
Agent Palmer
But because we’re different people, I’m going to quit and Bill is going to keep going because maybe some of our look at look at our read of the situation determines what that is.

00;36;01;03 – 00;36;01;25
Bill Sweeney
And sure.

00;36;02;13 – 00;36;11;15
Agent Palmer
If you’re looking for like self-help, this is not the book for you. This is not, you know, 12 ways to clean your house.

00;36;12;03 – 00;36;35;11
Bill Sweeney
No, no, because this this is definitely a book where it’s like it’s going to be a little bit like, hey, look, you came here for a little bit of a wake up call, you know, and it’s trying to be like tell you that you have to be kind of dead ass in a sense. You have to be real honest about if it’s time, you know, it’s literally it’s one of the more tough things I got.

00;36;35;11 – 00;36;54;28
Bill Sweeney
Quit the wrong stuff. Stick with the right stuff, have the guts to do one or the other, you know, And I feel like that speaks to me in a lot of ways because I feel I always feel like I’m in a situation of it’s like shit or get off the pot, like really commit or just be comfortable where you’re at.

00;36;54;28 – 00;37;17;21
Bill Sweeney
Then, you know, because even he says that in the book, it’s like, you know, it’s all right to be mediocre if you’re okay with that mediocre status. If you’re not, then here we are like, yeah, I mean, so like for me with the podcast, like the only person like in the end, looking back, the only person who held it back would be me, because people sometimes would be like, Oh, maybe we should do this.

00;37;17;21 – 00;37;31;19
Bill Sweeney
I do that. I always had a reason to not, you know, I always found some kind of like, man, I don’t know, it doesn’t feel like, you know, like whatever stage shy, gun shy, didn’t want to pull the trigger or whatever, but always found something, you know, I’ll.

00;37;31;20 – 00;37;52;04
Agent Palmer
Bet you’re wishing you had a list of all those ideas you said no to, because then in the rededication, you could be like, Well, I’ve got this list and listen, I speak from experience. I can’t tell the audience the listenership right now how many ideas. I was like, Hey, Bill, how about that?

00;37;52;25 – 00;38;11;11
Bill Sweeney
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Between you and the guys on the show, like people would throw stuff at me and what I’ve learned is that, like, you know, first of all, outside of you, because you still pitch me shit all the time, anytime you’ve got an idea that applies to me, you’ll call me up and be like, Hey, what do you think about this?

00;38;11;11 – 00;38;32;01
Bill Sweeney
And then you’ll just bounce off me because it’s like, I may not stick, but I’m not. I’m not going to chase it hard either, because Bill might just shoot it down, but I’m going to like, lob the ball across the over the net and see if he. Yeah, things are back over maybe, But yeah. So like other people would get, I think probably tired of suggesting things after a while though.

00;38;32;11 – 00;38;48;26
Bill Sweeney
You know what I mean? I don’t know if that was the case with anybody in particular, but I do know that it’s very much I’m always reminded of a thing a friend said to me like, you know, well, look, like we call you to hang out. And if you say no all the time, then people are going to stop calling to see if you want to hang out and do anything.

00;38;48;26 – 00;38;59;27
Bill Sweeney
And then it’s going to be a thing. We’re like, Oh, no one calls me to hang out, so don’t like, you know, I mean, so it’s a little bit of a lesson on the thing where it’s like, Oh, well, if I shoot down ideas from people, maybe the idea is stop coming.

00;39;00;09 – 00;39;18;26
Agent Palmer
I mean, I get that. But at the same time, I look at it like a wall and listen, let’s say you have there’s a wall you need to break down and all you have is a hammer. Guess what? The first thousand million whacks at that wall. You’re not going to get a hole through it like you’re just not.

00;39;19;03 – 00;39;39;07
Agent Palmer
You have to keep going. It’s almost a complete metaphor for the dip itself. Like you just have to get through their persistence. Yeah, you need that. Now, there is also banging your head against the wall. If there is if it’s like a play school hammer, you’re not going to get anywhere like you need to.

00;39;39;07 – 00;39;52;00
Bill Sweeney
Actually, I was going to adjust your metaphor there and say, well, when dealing with me, it’s not a hammer. It’s more like trying to take the wall down with like a I don’t know, a Q-Tip, you know, is something like soft that’s not going to get the job.

00;39;52;00 – 00;40;19;29
Agent Palmer
Done, but you need to know what you’re doing and we’ll talk about it now. But who the hell knows what happens is you have said yes to some ideas. Now, I will be honest. Bill is read this book once before. He’s now reread it and Bill pitches me some ideas. Occasionally. He’s not a complete one way street, but the other thing is we don’t always necessarily apply the concepts of the dip.

00;40;20;17 – 00;40;47;16
Agent Palmer
Should I do it or should I immediately to an idea. We kind of try and build it first. I mean, and it’s it’s one of the things about like, Hey, Bill, you should totally do this on your show. Okay, how would I do that? And then we talk about it. And it’s not until it’s a full idea, like because the other part about this too much, there is no such thing as too much knowledge.

00;40;47;23 – 00;41;11;10
Agent Palmer
There is no such thing as too much information. If you know what’s going on, you can make a better decision as to whether you should continue or not. That’s just the way it works. The less facts you have, the less okay. The less you know, the less you’ve got to go on. Right? If I know I got to drive east to get to your house, it’s not as good as having a map.

00;41;12;04 – 00;41;17;11
Bill Sweeney
Sure, sure, sure. I mean, you’ll get there, but, you know, it’ll take you a while.

00;41;17;12 – 00;41;19;28
Agent Palmer
And at that point, maybe it’s better not to.

00;41;21;04 – 00;41;48;20
Bill Sweeney
Yeah, well, you know, that’s I think that’s the thing. It’s these internal questions and it’s about, you know, having enough information in your own space to know and bouncing it off people and knowing that even if all right this is a thing because that’s the least the thing that I am realistic about is like, okay, even if you come to me with an idea right off the bat is like something I would never do or that’s kind of crazy.

00;41;48;20 – 00;42;07;05
Bill Sweeney
Why are you coming to me with this? I’m still bouncing around and take it apart and try and see if well, if it doesn’t work for me in whole what what’s what is appealing to me in that idea? Where does that send my head? Like, let me bounce around a little bit to give it a fair shakedown because I’m not going to dismiss it outright.

00;42;07;20 – 00;42;42;26
Bill Sweeney
But again, like it just does bring me back to the thing that I know that I have a propensity to like my my greater weakness or greater crutch. Yeah. A crutch in a way, is to find the soft out, you know, before it gets even started, you know, because when I see the big challenge, I either get intimidated by it somehow on some level or the level of the work and commitment involved seems greater than I want to put in for that particular thing.

00;42;43;07 – 00;43;05;11
Bill Sweeney
And I don’t often see a thing that feels like 100%, Oh, I can do that. And I think I can outside of like just kind of putting together a podcast because I knew it would be easy and I figured I knew enough nerd shit and I knew how to talk and be relatively amusing that if I found some people I could make a go of that.

00;43;06;02 – 00;43;16;00
Bill Sweeney
But that’s a rare thing for me to see something and be like, Oh, I can see that all the way through to the other side in my imagination. I know I can ride that out easily.

00;43;16;18 – 00;43;43;22
Agent Palmer
See? And on the other side I look for the heart out because my default for the longest time was yes. So like, I’m not looking for the easy out. I’m looking for the heart out. Like, right like. And it’s it’s odd that we come at it from two completely different instances because you mentioned earlier for the love of the game, it doesn’t matter if we win or lose, we lose.

00;43;43;22 – 00;44;10;13
Agent Palmer
We enjoy playing the game. And when we’re working on a creative project, specifically, right, you and I are both in our element within that creative space and that’s part of the fun for us and yeah, it’s so odd that like you look for a way to say no right from the beginning and I look for a way not to say yes.

00;44;10;26 – 00;44;33;02
Agent Palmer
Like, I mean, because that’s basically what I’m looking for. It’s like, All right, Bill came to me with a new idea. All right, I want to do it. But like, where’s the. No, Because otherwise, like, the default is yes. Now, I have changed like I have gotten in in the short few years that you and I have been working together.

00;44;33;16 – 00;44;53;24
Agent Palmer
I have actually turned around on that. And maybe it’s because I realized, like, well, I don’t my time’s not indefinite. And it’s not it’s not even the dip. It’s just being realistic. Okay, I can help Bill and do my own thing. But yeah, no, I’m not going to have time for your thing over there, Bob. Sorry. Like, it’s just.

00;44;54;15 – 00;45;20;29
Agent Palmer
It’s realistic, but that in reading the Dip, what you learn is all right, But I could be giving Bill’s show and my own stuff even more time if I get rid of some of these other ancillary projects, it’s. Yeah, but you you really have to be. It’s self-realization. I mean, you definitely have to take a look. You have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror in Yeah.

00;45;21;00 – 00;45;40;12
Agent Palmer
In an honest way, like this book is, you defeat the purpose of reading this book. If you look in the mirror and go, All right, here’s the 15 things I’m working on. I can do all of them, right? Somewhere along the way, you’re lying to yourself. Yeah. And I’m not saying people can’t do 15 different things.

00;45;40;18 – 00;46;02;05
Bill Sweeney
No, but. But you’re absolutely right. I mean, that’s there’s a lot to be said for there’s a limit to multitasking. The brain can only balance so much. And, you know, your after a while, your dedication, you know, starts to run thin on multiple things. You know, there’s only so much juggling you can do and there’s only so much juggling you should be doing like you should.

00;46;02;25 – 00;46;22;17
Bill Sweeney
You should only give of yourself so much anyway, because it’s probably not like in the general sense, the greatest thing to kind of like, you know, bury yourself too much into the helping of others, to the fact that like, oh, now my like now my stuff’s getting all out of whack because I’m doing five or six different things this week that I’m doing, you know, to help people.

00;46;22;19 – 00;46;33;04
Bill Sweeney
I’m doing, you know, not to say, oh, free is a bad thing. I’m just saying, like, you know, it’s not like it’s quote unquote work. You know what I mean? It’s like I’m helping this guy with this thing. I’m helping this guy with that thing, you know?

00;46;33;04 – 00;46;57;10
Agent Palmer
And I go back to a shared project you and I worked on. We worked on the first and second part October fest for seven days a week. And I know in preparation for that, I did double work on my own projects, like doing extra work before you go away for vacation because you know, while you’re on vacation you won’t be doing work, but you don’t want to come back behind the eight ball.

00;46;57;26 – 00;47;10;20
Agent Palmer
And that’s at times what it can end up being. Full disclosure, I’m a workaholic anyway. Like, I prefer to just keep doing the work week in and week out and not take the vacation.

00;47;11;09 – 00;47;33;13
Bill Sweeney
Right? Well, like I said, like, this is the thing that like, you know, I always kind of give you kudos for in a lot of ways because of the fact of how different I am. And I don’t fucking commit. I don’t stay on top of my projects. I don’t, you know, see a lot of them through to the other side, even for small, personal, little creative things that when I watch you do it, I’m always like, Well, here’s a guy who fucking just keeps going.

00;47;33;13 – 00;47;57;17
Bill Sweeney
Like, you know, he’s like, okay, I’ve got posts lined up in in advance that are already done. I got, you know, I got all of next August. I’m like, August is next year. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s like, what? Well, it’s like, you know, this kind of thing. Now I know that you, you’re not as far ahead as you once were, but you used to be pretty freaking far ahead.

00;47;57;29 – 00;48;22;19
Bill Sweeney
And, you know, I used to just. I used to kind of be in awe of that. I’m like, Oh, here’s a guy like, you know, the console is churning it out. He’s staying on top of it. He’s keeping this momentum and this rhythm, you know, for the sake of his blog and is still finding time to do stuff that he’s really excited to do for friends.

00;48;22;19 – 00;48;38;20
Bill Sweeney
And, you know, not that you weren’t happy to help others, but like even stuff that on the side that’s of that lower level where it’s like, Oh yeah, okay, I’ll help you out. Like you don’t I mean, like there’s a difference between like Pottery Fest where it’s like, you know, it’s a lot of work, but we’re excited about it and it’s fun.

00;48;38;28 – 00;49;04;23
Bill Sweeney
And like, part of the fun is just working together and having some laughs on the side versus like, you know, well, you know, I got to help my mom. She’s getting a new computer or like, I got to debug, you know, a friend of mine called me, doesn’t know how to fix a thing like your I mean, so like these these, these these ways that you were able to still maintain in your your rhythm of putting out material.

00;49;05;21 – 00;49;26;04
Bill Sweeney
I was always like a little jealous is the right word. But I always like, well, you know, I used to say to myself, well, look at this guy. This guy’s fucking pumping it out. This guy’s getting it done. And that’s the smoke of your ass anyway, because it’s not like, oh, this monumental achievement in a broad sense. But to me, because just can’t stick on stuff like, you know, I mean, because even if I do, because here’s the thing, right?

00;49;26;04 – 00;49;46;17
Bill Sweeney
My, my, my weakness is not getting things started because it’s easier to cop out and then be when I start, I kind of lose my interest or luster for it. So it’s easy to kind of like just kind of drift away from it. And it’s like, well, it was only a story idea anyway, but it’s like, no, it was a story idea that you kind of felt like you could see a whole novel through.

00;49;46;17 – 00;49;50;09
Bill Sweeney
So what are you, what are you being a chicken about? Just kind of chip away at it then.

00;49;50;14 – 00;50;15;15
Agent Palmer
So I will tell you that the appearance is is all that it really ends up mattering, right? Like, I put out one show a week. That’s what’s important. I am a firm believer in strike while the iron is hot. That’s how I end up with. Oh, I’m completely drafted up for the next seven posts. Like I’m good. Like, that’s fine.

00;50;16;13 – 00;50;42;03
Agent Palmer
But what happens is then you get on another project and what you talk about, about the fear of losing the momentum for you, Stop. Guess what? And then, Oh, I can’t start again. Mm hmm. I’ve been in a scenario where something happened in my professional life. I lost my job when I lost job, I was six weeks ahead on the blog.

00;50;42;23 – 00;50;53;23
Agent Palmer
Mm hmm. But because of, like, Oh, I got to find another job. All this other stuff, the unknowns that the sheer, like, mental. It’s not a collapse, but like, the.

00;50;54;07 – 00;50;54;12
Bill Sweeney
Doesn’t.

00;50;54;15 – 00;50;55;19
Agent Palmer
Turn left It goes through.

00;50;55;26 – 00;50;58;12
Bill Sweeney
Internal pressure. Yeah.

00;50;58;12 – 00;51;09;27
Agent Palmer
I ended up the next time I ended up writing, I had one week to spare. I used up five of my six weeks and later.

00;51;10;00 – 00;51;26;27
Bill Sweeney
What’s funny is, is that in a timeframe where you weren’t really working a day job, so you probably could have actually gotten more had time, you know what I mean? But the mental state just isn’t isn’t working like that. Yeah, I’m in panic mode. Everything’s out the window. Real life is more important than a blog.

00;51;27;06 – 00;51;48;25
Agent Palmer
Now, I may have seen this coming, but I didn’t see like, I didn’t know exactly when it was going to happen. So there are scenarios where it’s like, whatever. But I will tell you, getting back in it and doing it again, it’s just is hard. So while on the outside, I haven’t missed a week right? The blog has continued.

00;51;49;11 – 00;52;17;17
Agent Palmer
I had this golden few weeks where it was like, Oh, I was writing like four posts in a week and then like five weeks of nothing. And then, Oh, I got it. I’m I’m up against it again. Like, oh, I got to oh, what am I going to get three days till the blog like, Yeah, like there’s all these things, you know, as far as like that was just in terms of the blog and I still was helping with podcasts and I was still doing all this stuff.

00;52;17;26 – 00;52;40;26
Agent Palmer
And I guess I feel like I wasn’t trying to outdo anyone or like, make you feel like or, or whatever, like it wasn’t about ego. It wasn’t about like, Hey, Bill, I could do you do one show a week, I do one part, one blog post a week. But how come you’re not doing two other podcasts like I’m doing and this that?

00;52;41;01 – 00;53;00;15
Agent Palmer
Like it’s not about that for me. I enjoy the process and that’s where we get bogged into it. And it’s like, All right. And the other thing that I wanted to say this and this is just me being in love with the process and maybe too much so is that you don’t have to remember your projects. I do that for you like that.

00;53;00;15 – 00;53;19;26
Agent Palmer
Well, and I don’t know if it was like a big joke and I don’t know if it ever became like a thing where, like, you were like, Oh, what? Like I’m not trying to, you know, blow smoke up my own ass. But it was like, I wonder what Bill’s going to do if I go away. Like, and I’ve I’ve told you before, like, whatever your next big show is, I’m completely on board if I can help.

00;53;19;26 – 00;53;39;05
Agent Palmer
But like, for a while there it was like, Hey, Bill, you got to you got to do this. Hey, Bill, did you did you do the thing like, Yeah, and you’re not the only one I’ve done that for. I guess I’m just slightly and I’m not picking on anyone. I’m not I’m just slightly a little more organized, which doesn’t make me an organized person.

00;53;39;24 – 00;53;56;21
Bill Sweeney
No, but I mean, look. Well, look, anybody who’s organized at all is more organized, and I am at all. You know what I mean? If you. If even just a little bit, you know, I mean, like, oh, you put your clothes away when they come back from the laundry. Oh, that’s interesting. You know, it’s like, oh, that’s a that’s a that’s a concept I’m not familiar with.

00;53;57;09 – 00;54;18;07
Bill Sweeney
You know, there was a point where like, yeah, like I do that too, where it was like, you know, he’s helping me so much behind the scenes, putting the small stuff together that’s like, yeah, like, and I would realize it too, every now and then when you weren’t around to help out for a week or so and it’d be like, Oh crap, this guy is some heavy lifting, you know, and not heavy, heavy.

00;54;18;07 – 00;54;31;23
Bill Sweeney
But like the stuff that was all the stuff I didn’t want to do all this stuff. Like, I hated doing, you know? I mean, so it was like, Oh, at least he’s, he’s around. And it was good that it was that you took those breaks because otherwise I would have been way too comfortable.

00;54;31;24 – 00;55;02;09
Agent Palmer
I was going to say, I know specifically and I don’t know how it started, but at a certain point for your show, I started writing the show. So it’s like, yes, like during the show. So like when you brought it down at 10:00, you can literally go in there and the show notes would be there. And I remember like, I think I did this for like seven or eight weeks and then like something came up and I missed a show and you were like, I don’t I don’t know how to write these anymore.

00;55;02;10 – 00;55;06;04
Agent Palmer
Like, it was just like muscle memory was gone for you. You were like, Yeah.

00;55;06;04 – 00;55;23;24
Bill Sweeney
Like, you know, I used to tell how how did I do it before he came along? Like, sure. Like, it’s not going to be as detailed. And then eventually, like, you know, you would, you would have this long thing. And, you know, I’ve always got like great little moments and stuff written out. And then when I had to do it, it’d be like, Yeah, we talked about five things and we’re were done.

00;55;23;24 – 00;55;47;17
Bill Sweeney
And it’s like, you know, a paragraph compared to like, you know, at least two or three, you know. But that’s, you know, one of the things that like, you know, just goes to show in a way where like my problems are not necessarily solved by this book because I’m a creature of contention. My bigger problems is like, I need the book.

00;55;47;17 – 00;56;04;11
Bill Sweeney
Like the happens before this book. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the dip is a thing, like to to be aware of when you’re in the middle of it, you know, when you’re doing it and it’s running. And what I feel like I really need is something that’s like, Hey, hey, wake up. And here’s how you pick a lane.

00;56;04;20 – 00;56;24;14
Bill Sweeney
Like, you know, I mean, that’s where my need this is one of the things that this book helped me realize is that I need a different book, you know, in a way, because there’s things in this book mentions and does allude to that are just, you know, examples offhandedly that are like speak to me much more than the rest of the book.

00;56;25;16 – 00;56;56;17
Bill Sweeney
So like in this example here he gives us example of when talking about just how does how to spot these strategies and stuff. And he goes to this thing of the supermarket line of like there’s like three basic strategies and it’s like, you know, literally is is do I get in the lane and stay in the lane? Do I bounce around from lane to lane?

00;56;57;00 – 00;57;32;12
Bill Sweeney
You know, or, you know, do I pick the shortest line? Just keep my eyes open. And that’s the problem literally for me is not picking a lane. And if anything, I’m the guy who, although I don’t do it in real life, but metaphorically, I do it all the time of this jumping around thing. What do I do? Not commit to any one thing in a big way, like being a podcast or quote unquote, is creatively probably the truest thing, but it’s the one thing that, like in a dream world I would want to be least known for.

00;57;32;12 – 00;57;51;19
Bill Sweeney
I’d rather be known for my writing or something like that, something on the creative side, like my art, you know what I mean? But the thing is, like, he’s got a great example here, like, and he uses an entrepreneur wannabe as an example who is like, you know, on a six or 12 new project, he jumps from one to another, and every time he hits an obstacle, he switches to a new, easier, better opportunity.

00;57;52;01 – 00;58;39;22
Bill Sweeney
And while he’s a seeker, he’s never going to get anywhere. He never gets anywhere because he’s switching lanes, switching lines, never really able to run for it. Well, starting up is fun and thrilling. It’s not enough to get you through the dip that that your will pay off. And that’s a thing that, like I tend to do like, you know, I mean and so whereas you know dips got a lot of great material in it and it’s really a handy dandy book for, you know, like I said, like being in the middle of these processes, being in the middle of projects, recognizing certain aspects of them while they’re running, you know, my real defect might

00;58;39;22 – 00;58;58;28
Bill Sweeney
stem from like something when I was a kid and I was allowed to kind of quit when it got hard and I should have stuck through, which is which is a concept of a dip. But what I’ve learned, the thing I fell into the habit of being able to do, though, was learn, Oh, I can just kind of back out of things before they even start.

00;58;59;06 – 00;59;15;22
Bill Sweeney
And then I’ve not committed to it. And therefore no fuss, no must, no worry, nothing at all. I just got to deal with feeling like, Oh, maybe I should have done that. And now that’s caught up in me feeling like I should have done that. I’ve hit my forties, so. So regrets are starting to kick in.

00;59;15;22 – 00;59;23;00
Agent Palmer
And the interesting thing about this book that it doesn’t speak to me is helping you with your show.

00;59;24;05 – 00;59;29;27
Bill Sweeney
I Okay. No, well, I just didn’t expect you to go right there. Right? That is in that way.

00;59;29;28 – 00;59;30;13
Agent Palmer
No, it’s.

00;59;30;13 – 00;59;31;03
Bill Sweeney
Just that sentence.

00;59;31;10 – 01;00;01;27
Agent Palmer
It was just we were already talking about it. So instead of bringing in somebody else’s show, I’ll pile on yours. No, it doesn’t help with sugar. I didn’t define success for the show. For your show. I was helping out, Right. And I was happy to do it. But I wasn’t defining success. So in reading this entire book, and I’m using your show as an example, but any show I’ve ever helped with write this book didn’t help me determine if I should be helping that show or not.

01;00;02;25 – 01;00;17;17
Agent Palmer
It really didn’t. Yeah, I’m I’m helping out and that’s fine. And do I get something out of it and is it moving? And I guess that’s based on it goes back to the education part of like I was learning things as I was going along.

01;00;17;24 – 01;00;19;10
Bill Sweeney
So that’s true. That’s part of.

01;00;19;10 – 01;00;33;14
Agent Palmer
Like but it doesn’t really I in being part of the process but not the decision maker. Yes. And that’s the key because I feel like this book is specifically for it’s your project, your decision maker.

01;00;33;14 – 01;01;02;00
Bill Sweeney
Yes, But no, that’s what I was going to say pretty much. I was trying to jump in. But you ended up on it. Is that. Yeah, the book is not for a guy. Well, it’s not for your situations of that where your friend on the edge, an assistant, you know, a producer type who’s, you know, not the showrunner per say, therefore, you know, your, your juggling act that you’re doing internally.

01;01;02;00 – 01;01;18;24
Bill Sweeney
A different one. You know what I mean? You know, your goal is not to worry about the bigger picture of is this thing a success. You, you, you are looking at these small things you’re helping with, as in am I helping? Am I a success in that regard? Kind of like, oh, am I Oh, okay, can I get this done a time?

01;01;18;24 – 01;02;02;07
Bill Sweeney
It’s a small, easy thing for me from the outside helping these guys, whether or not that show is working or doing something better, you know, in its numbers or some other aspect, that’s really not your concern. But what this could apply to is your personal project style. You know, so but you know, also to I feel like for you, this would be a thing when you’re dealing with your bigger decisions and processes and questions and life life questions know career wise and, you know, doing your own podcast or, you know, when you hit some kind of wall with your own blog, maybe one day you’ll start to feel like this is, you know, my, my,

01;02;02;07 – 01;02;34;06
Bill Sweeney
my, my input versus my returns. You know, that kind of a question. This is this is a book that’s a little bit kind of you know, it’s broader it’s broader spectrum in that way. You know what I mean? But still the same time, very defined where it’s like it’s for a specific type of person who’s doing some kind of like, you know, you have to be the project leader or or concept decision maker, you know, I mean, the guy who’s steering the ship, you know, this is this is for them to the you know, do we abandon this ship?

01;02;34;06 – 01;02;52;22
Bill Sweeney
Do we do we jump off with the life preservers or do we try and ride out these waves and maybe just like to graph ride one big crest up and then which is good for, you know, a long time, but, you know, some of the concepts in this book to talk about, you know, how these corporations sustain that.

01;02;52;22 – 01;03;06;09
Bill Sweeney
And it’s like never, you know, always being aware of these kinds of concepts of of a dip and stuff like that are always, you know, you’d be surprised when these things will pop into your head and actually be helpful.

01;03;06;13 – 01;03;25;16
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean, this book isn’t telling you to run out and quit everything and it’s not telling you to run out and do everything. It’s telling you to take a look and take stock of what you’re doing and perhaps and you really do need to take a snapshot of everything. It’s not a vacuum of should I do this podcast or not?

01;03;25;21 – 01;03;48;08
Agent Palmer
Should I continue this blog or not? It’s I have a blog. What happens if I add a podcast? It’s you have to look at both you. This is not a book for just that single project. It doesn’t work. You have to look at it in terms of everything else because you can. I mean, there are so many examples of it.

01;03;48;08 – 01;04;06;18
Agent Palmer
If your goal is to write a book, you don’t have to quit your day job, which also means you don’t have to stop writing your book because you have a day job. These are things you need to look at in a whole, and it’s one of those you have to look at the mirror, you have to look at the whole mirror.

01;04;06;18 – 01;04;09;21
Agent Palmer
You can’t just be like, Yeah, I’m good.

01;04;10;06 – 01;04;27;23
Bill Sweeney
Yeah, Well, I mean, I think that’s the thing too, is like, it’s, it’s, you know, for me, it’s, it’s constant. I constantly wrestle with, you know, for all these kinds of things I hear about and learn, Why don’t I ever just like, oh, wow, okay, yeah, it’s that easy. Like, you know, I mean, or whatever. How come I can’t get it done?

01;04;28;10 – 01;04;45;08
Bill Sweeney
My, like I said, I need a different book. My thing is my follow through. Like on projects in general. It’s like, I’ll sit there and I’ll hear about like, Oh, this guy, he was a copy. He, you know, not a cop, but, you know, this guy going to work every day. And, you know, he wrote a book on his commute.

01;04;45;08 – 01;04;59;28
Bill Sweeney
You know, he’s like, Oh, I got all this time. And on his phone, you know, just kind of thumb typed it through. And eventually, over time, you know, it’s like they say a page a day adds up. You know what I mean? That that that, that. And it’s like, well, if it’s just that fucking easy, how come I’m not, you know, why don’t I do it?

01;05;00;09 – 01;05;13;10
Bill Sweeney
And so I have, I have other questions I need to get to the bottom of. You know, this particular therapy session probably is not the one, you know. Well.

01;05;13;22 – 01;05;21;10
Agent Palmer
I mean, I guess the question is, was this book helpful to you at all?

01;05;21;10 – 01;05;49;15
Bill Sweeney
Yeah. I mean, and I’m not going to say how much of it was consciously in my head when I kind of like decide to wrap up the show, because that was a thing that like I didn’t want to do, but it was so in the air and just was the only way to kind of wrestle anything out of it was to kind of say, All right, this is a point where I have to either take a break soon or figure it out to hundreds of nice round number.

01;05;49;15 – 01;06;12;29
Bill Sweeney
But literally, you know, I’ve told you this, You know, I wasn’t going to do that. That wasn’t my plan that day that Ed said to me. I think I kind of trailed off and I was like, all right. So I guess. And Ed goes, That’s it. This is it. Meaning I think he meant in the moment, like.

01;06;13;09 – 01;06;13;27
Agent Palmer
The end of the show.

01;06;14;08 – 01;06;38;20
Bill Sweeney
Whatever the episode. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I was, like you said, done with the show, you know, I mean, like I always wrestle with that too. Show episode podcast do not mean the same thing. People use them interchangeably, but yeah, my point being that and instinctually I immediately fell into, yeah, I guess this show is done, I guess the podcast is done.

01;06;38;20 – 01;06;58;04
Bill Sweeney
And whether it was subconscious or not, you know, because it wasn’t my plan going in and it certainly was barely even my plan as I was saying it, it just kind of fell out of my mouth. That’s like, Wow, I guess that’s my my subconscious talking or just me seeing an opportunity and was just with like that moment of laser focus saying, I can do it right now.

01;06;58;04 – 01;07;05;14
Bill Sweeney
I could I could just right now would be the perfect moment to do that if I want to do that. And I said, okay, it wasn’t.

01;07;05;29 – 01;07;25;26
Agent Palmer
So. It was the only moment in the entire night that gave me a pause because I was so not expecting it. But I will say this is where persistence pays off people, because I’d like to think that the 6 to 8 weeks prior of me being like, Bill, you need to take a break. Bill, you need to take a break.

01;07;25;26 – 01;07;46;22
Bill Sweeney
We’ll take a break. Flip one on flip How like on your side. This was an achievement On my side. It was kind of like a crossroads. I don’t know what’s going to happen. Whoa. And you were like, I did it. I got through. I finally, my little tiny Fisher Price hammer, I managed to make the crack in the damn wall, and now the water’s rushing in.

01;07;46;22 – 01;07;59;20
Bill Sweeney
Oh, man. Hopefully we can all drown. But, Seth Godin, I hope you’re listening. This man. I don’t know. I don’t know if it counts, but he he achieved something before he even read the book, right? Because that was before I.

01;07;59;22 – 01;08;22;25
Agent Palmer
This was before. Yeah. I mean, I will say this, you know, this book is very obvious, and I don’t mean to say like, don’t pick it up. But like I said, he’s not saying anything that. A You haven’t already heard. B You haven’t already heard yourself or see, you’re just overlooking it. I mean, that I think the.

01;08;22;25 – 01;08;41;03
Bill Sweeney
Concept of the concept of the dip might be new to you, but the explanations and the reasons why are very kind of familiar. And it’s nothing earth shaking kind of like, Oh wow, that’s a fucking like, you know, massive, right? Like it all feels very kind of self obvious, like, oh, I should have, should have considered this, should have thought of that, like stuff like that.

01;08;41;04 – 01;08;59;04
Agent Palmer
It’s the and you know what I will say, you only have to read the book once because it’s like and I’m going to give two examples. To be fair, it’s like seeing the arrow in the FedEx logo or seeing the smile of the Amazon logo. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about, go.

01;08;59;20 – 01;08;59;29
Bill Sweeney
Look at.

01;08;59;29 – 01;09;06;19
Agent Palmer
That and Google Amazon logo. But like once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Like you still you just.

01;09;06;19 – 01;09;18;00
Bill Sweeney
I think and I think he kind of knows that that there’s only so much reread value maybe but I think you might be wrong on that because when I reread it a second time, I was able to kind of like do more different layer of self-reflection.

01;09;18;07 – 01;09;18;26
Agent Palmer
Well, but.

01;09;19;00 – 01;09;39;28
Bill Sweeney
He’s got a page. He’s got a page in the back, which I think is great. Yeah. Is to share the book and like you can fill out your name, fill out the names of people with a book should go to, like pass it around, that kind of thing. And everybody can kind of like fill it out. So the idea that don’t buy it, don’t buy somebody’s copy, send them, send them yours there, I mean, kind of thing.

01;09;39;28 – 01;09;42;05
Bill Sweeney
But yeah, I you a brand new one.

01;09;42;15 – 01;10;05;05
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Well but I will say the other side of it is how much has taken place in your life since the last time you read this book. So potentially when you write that seven or ten or nine or 11 names on it of like these are the people, as you put your name down as like the 12th person, because when it comes back to you, you’ll be in a different place.

01;10;05;14 – 01;10;18;10
Agent Palmer
You’ll be doing different things potentially, you know, I mean, we can all be so lucky as to have the same job for whatever and be doing the same projects and still feel the same way about them. Right, Right. But life experience changes.

01;10;18;26 – 01;10;35;09
Bill Sweeney
And, you know, I will say that, you know, it’s not you know, it’s very much you have to put your experience on top of it in a lot of ways. You know, you really have to kind of read it with that kind of a headspace where, like he’s trying to really kind of put this concept home to you.

01;10;35;09 – 01;10;56;25
Bill Sweeney
And it’s not a long book by any means. And the concepts are very simple it’s nothing crazy. There’s no heavy lifting here. But it is a thing where, like, it’s a little blunt, you know, it’s a little blunt. You know, if not going to if you’re not trying to be as best as you can be, you know why?

01;10;56;25 – 01;11;22;17
Bill Sweeney
Why why are you in it in a sense? You know, I mean, it depends on what you’re trying to achieve. But for a lot of people, it’s like sometimes maybe that’s the only real nudge you need is to kind of like, yeah, okay, you know, I wasn’t aiming if you weren’t aiming to be the best and ended up at much less than that, then that’s probably why you ended up there and you should reconsider that.

01;11;22;28 – 01;11;30;15
Agent Palmer
Yeah, well, I aimed for the best bill in your landlord for my you.

01;11;30;17 – 01;11;37;21
Bill Sweeney
Land and you landed here with me. That’s. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know why Crazy choices you make sometimes, you know.

01;11;37;27 – 01;11;47;18
Agent Palmer
You know what? I read this book and decided to start a podcast in spite of it. Take that Seth Godin. Bill, thanks for coming on.

01;11;48;27 – 01;12;15;16
Bill Sweeney
Parler You for having me. It was a pleasure. For me, it’s something of an honor to be the first, but definitely not the last. Or, you know, I want to be your last. Make me your last guest. If you ever decide because of reading the dip that it’s time to abandon the project. But you know that the end is coming and then have me help you close the door.

01;12;15;17 – 01;12;21;04
Agent Palmer
All right, I’ll mark it down. But that’s not to say the next bill’s on if he’s on again is the last.

01;12;21;16 – 01;12;26;00
Bill Sweeney
Right? Right. Fair enough. That’s fair enough. Yeah. Let’s not let me not be a signifier.

01;12;26;06 – 01;12;34;27
Agent Palmer
I’ll just let people know right now if I have Bill on for the end of the podcast, it will literally be called The bill comes on to end the podcast.

01;12;35;13 – 01;12;37;27
Bill Sweeney
Right? Yes, it will be clearly marked in the title.

01;12;37;27 – 01;12;38;20
Agent Palmer
There you go.

01;12;39;23 – 01;12;41;07
Bill Sweeney
Have a good one. Bye. Thanks so much.

01;12;41;10 – 01;13;20;21
Agent Palmer
Thank you. This outro bit is going to be a bit of a work in progress. Not all episodes will have a summarization, but I’m sure I’ll have something to say at the end. So let’s do it. This one I can summarize. There is no one magical elixir to assist with decision making or to optimize your process. A lot of it is trial and error, but books like The Dip by Seth Godin and discussions like the one you just heard, the likes of which I encourage you to have with others, can be extremely beneficial to you.

01;13;21;06 – 01;13;40;05
Agent Palmer
You can find links to the Dip by Seth Godin, the War of art that Bill mentioned, and a bunch of other information in the show notes. Now for some more official, the Palmer Files will release every two weeks on Tuesdays. So during our fortnight apart, I encourage you to join or furthered the discussion. Let me hear what you think.

01;13;40;05 – 01;14;10;27
Agent Palmer
You can tweet the show at the Palmer Files, myself at Agent Palmer, and this week’s guest Bill Sweeney at Wicked Theory. Twitter. Not your thing send an email to the Palmer files at gmail.com and don’t forget to visit Bill’s site Wicked theory. Com and see what I’ve got going on in the meantime at Agent Palmer Dot com. You can also hear more of me in the meantime on our liner notes a musical Conversation podcast, I co-host with Chris Maier and my new gig as co-host the Podcast Digest with Dan Lizette.

01;14;11;15 – 01;15;06;11
Agent Palmer
Until next time. Have a good one. So, Bill, do you have one last question?

01;15;07;19 – 01;15;37;10
Bill Sweeney
There’s something for you. Well, you know, we talk a lot about projects and not that you you don’t have to get crazy specific, but do you have because I kind of I know. I kind of do. So do you have like one project that like, is like, off to the side is like, that’s like, I really want to do that.

01;15;37;10 – 01;15;55;03
Bill Sweeney
That’s the thing that like, scares me the most or seems like the most work, but is like one of, like the dream kind of project. Things to get done one day. The great American novel or something of that. You know what I mean? Like something that feels like, Oh, I’m going to get to that. It’s a lot of work.

01;15;55;03 – 01;15;58;17
Bill Sweeney
It’s a big project, but I’m going, man, I hope I get to it.

01;16;00;02 – 01;16;31;14
Agent Palmer
Yes, but it’s not my project. I’m a part of it. So this is how it works. I’ve got a a friend named Jason Zapata and he is a writer and a poet, and I edited his book, which by the way, it’s called Nocturnal Wanderings. You can get it on Amazon. I’ll pick his book real quick. Sure. He wrote a novel from beginning to end, and I edited said novel on the first draft, and it’s been on the shelf ever since.

01;16;32;14 – 01;16;50;28
Agent Palmer
And I really want to get that thing published. And he wavers on it. And so that’s like the big project. Will it ever? It’s not again. It speaks to a lot of the episode, like it’s not my.

01;16;50;29 – 01;16;51;22
Bill Sweeney
Or right.

01;16;51;22 – 01;17;03;05
Agent Palmer
But I’m also invested in it. And I was, you know, I was a sounding board throughout the creation of the first draft and I really want to see it to fruition almost more for him than for me. Sure.

01;17;03;17 – 01;17;05;07
Bill Sweeney
It’s. It’s earned a little place in you.

01;17;05;07 – 01;17;20;08
Agent Palmer
Yeah, that’s the big project. And it’s like and every once in a while, I’ll bring it up to him. He’s one of my best friends, so I’m like, I don’t bring it up all the time, but occasionally. And I won’t even say what it is, just in case there’s.

01;17;21;12 – 01;17;22;08
Bill Sweeney
Any movement on that.

01;17;22;08 – 01;17;24;09
Agent Palmer
So we’re going to look at that again. We’re going to do.

01;17;24;28 – 01;17;26;23
Bill Sweeney
The time soon. Does that off.

01;17;26;23 – 01;17;27;14
Agent Palmer
That’s one.

01;17;28;03 – 01;17;29;17
Bill Sweeney
You hear that, Zapata, get on it.

–End Transcription–

This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).