Finding the Groove with Drummer and Lawyer Bryan Tuk

Episode 154 features Bryan Tuk who’s here to bolster the rhythm section with his drums, his law degree, and his musical educator self.

During this episode we discuss Bryan’s path from when he first picked up the sticks to graduating law school, with enough tangents and conversation to cover just about everything in between and beyond those two points of reference.

From here on out you’ll hear us discuss the drive to help creatives, connecting with an audience, teaching and learning, the sorry position of the arts and music education right now, and much more

Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode

The House of Tuk

Tuk Law

AgentPalmer.com

–End Show Notes Transmission–

–Begin Transcription–

00:00:00:01 – 00:00:24:30
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com. Like climbing a stairway to heaven, becoming LED Zeppelin, doc takes its time to showcase the band, and Imagica is an epic tomb worthy of your time. And I promise that Sara very much is the ray of positivity she was on the show. This is The Palmer Files episode 154 with Bryan Tuk, who’s here to bolster the rhythm section with his drums, his law degree, and his musical educator self.

00:00:24:39 – 00:00:57:47
Agent Palmer
Are you ready? Let’s do the show.

00:00:57:52 – 00:01:27:41
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 154th episode is Bryan Talk. As you’re about to hear. Bryan wears many hats, works in many roles, and is always busy. He’s a drummer, a lawyer, a teacher, a producer, a volunteer, and that’s just the beginning. During this episode, we discuss Bryan’s path from when he first picked up the sticks to graduating law school with enough tangents and conversation to cover just about everything in between and beyond those two points of reference.

00:01:27:55 – 00:01:47:21
Agent Palmer
From here on out, you’ll hear us discuss the drive to help creatives, connecting with an audience, teaching and learning the sorry position of the arts and music education right now, and much, much more. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact Bryan and myself in the show notes.

00:01:47:26 – 00:02:06:39
Agent Palmer
You can learn even more about Bryan and his creative projects at the House of Tuker. Com that’s the House of tea EW.com or for his legal work, Tuk Law.com link in the show notes. Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com.

00:02:06:46 – 00:02:14:29
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s find the beat and keep the rhythm.

00:02:14:33 – 00:02:39:52
Agent Palmer
Bryan, I know a little bit about a lot of things you do. So in an in in an open world where you’re not necessarily in one place, if I were to say, who are you? And I’m going to now list all the things I know, like you are a lawyer, but you’re also a drummer and an artist and an entrepreneur.

00:02:39:53 – 00:02:49:07
Agent Palmer
Like, there are all of these things. If I were to say, like, well, just give me one. Like, what is Bryan?

00:02:49:12 – 00:03:04:08
Bryan Tuk
Well, if I had if I had to say one thing, what that thing would be is I’m someone that helps creative things to happen.

00:03:04:11 – 00:03:04:51
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:03:04:56 – 00:03:08:07
Bryan Tuk
That’s not really a job. It’s not really in a way.

00:03:08:12 – 00:03:12:15
Agent Palmer
Well, it’s a but it’s a noble cause. I would say.

00:03:12:20 – 00:03:14:48
Bryan Tuk
I hope so, I think.

00:03:14:51 – 00:03:42:44
Agent Palmer
Well, look, I’ve spent the latter part of this podcast maybe from like episode 40 on, telling people to do whatever it is. The, their thing is. Now, a lot of the creatives I have on this show tend to say, I wish I had started sooner, or they just say, you know, if it moves, you do it. You know, if you want to write the thing, if you want to record the thing or, you know, whatever, just do the thing.

00:03:42:49 – 00:04:12:06
Agent Palmer
And I think a lot of people out there would probably be better off if they did. So if there’s more people like you and I think I fall into the category with you, I’ve helped a lot of people facilitate their creative things. That’s better for everybody. But how did you get here? I mean, obviously, this is I mean, that’s it’s easy enough to say I help, but, you know, that’s not where we are.

00:04:12:08 – 00:04:13:58
Agent Palmer
We never start there.

00:04:14:03 – 00:04:38:15
Bryan Tuk
Right? No, that’s a that’s a great point. So, the thing that I have done the longest is I have been, a drummer and a musician since I was 11 years old or ten years old when I really got the bug to start, you know, banging on things, chairs and was tables.

00:04:38:16 – 00:04:41:43
Agent Palmer
Was it always drums? Was always percussion?

00:04:41:48 – 00:05:08:13
Bryan Tuk
First. Yes. And I, took piano lessons for a number of years, you know, as all small kids do. And, you know, that’s that has also been a part of my journey. And I know people are listening to this going, Jesus, why can’t this guy give a straight answer so that the so what I am I at my core, I guess is a drummer.

00:05:08:18 – 00:05:09:18
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:05:09:22 – 00:05:41:08
Bryan Tuk
However, as I’ve gotten older, I realized that people who are creative don’t really consider doing other things. So if they want to be, you know, if you’re a guitarist in your in your gut, you know, you just play, you learn to play and you play in bands or you, or play for. No, maybe you just are somebody that has gear at home and records, you know, it’s very easy to record at home now.

00:05:41:10 – 00:06:15:59
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. You know, laptop or tablet or a phone, even, for God sakes. But I have found that is if you want, you know, concerts don’t happen on their own. Festivals don’t happen by themselves. And someone has to be, you know, a catalyst. Yes, to to make those things happen. And sometimes, you know, I’ve, I found myself over the course of my professional life going, I must have a screw loose like, no, but why am I put myself through all this anguish?

00:06:16:03 – 00:06:33:01
Bryan Tuk
But, you know, the result is a concert happens. There are a room of happy people. There are room full of people who maybe have has connected with something in the air. We can talk about that in a little bit.

00:06:33:01 – 00:06:34:15
Agent Palmer
Yeah.

00:06:34:20 – 00:07:05:09
Bryan Tuk
And I, I think accessing either of, an acquaintance of mine, and I’ll, I’ll call him out. Paul Herron, painter from Easton. Incredible artist. He uses the term accessing the sublime. Okay. That, in a conversation with him, he said that it hit me like a ton of bricks, and I’ve always I’ve always hung on to that.

00:07:05:14 – 00:07:25:05
Bryan Tuk
That if you are, you know, in if you’re a musician or you’re, an actor, I suppose I’ve never done any, you know, drama. I’ve never done any stage work or anything like that. But I suppose for performer, any live performer, dance, comedy, acting, you name it.

00:07:25:14 – 00:07:26:10
Agent Palmer
Yeah.

00:07:26:15 – 00:07:47:28
Bryan Tuk
If you once you connect with the audience and everyone’s riding the same wave of energy, it really is an altered state. And the only thing I thought about this a lot over the years, the only thing that I can analogize it to is, is a runner’s high. If you’ve ever had one of those.

00:07:47:33 – 00:08:10:04
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Well, I mean, as a runner. No, I’ve never had like that. I like I run for other reasons, but, like, I, I’m a bit jealous when people talk about the runner’s high, like, I don’t really feel that, but I have been on a stage playing music, and I have felt that kind of we’re we’re in this together.

00:08:10:04 – 00:08:44:51
Agent Palmer
This is not just me playing in you watching like somehow where one or, you know, we’re a group and I, but I want to I want to go backwards first real quick. So you were a drummer, and I started in on bass, and for some reason, it feels like these rhythm section chops from the beginning set us up to help people in the end and later in life.

00:08:44:51 – 00:09:07:22
Agent Palmer
Like, I don’t know what it is, but I don’t meet many lead guitarists or singers that tend to be as helpful and maybe like with producer or director or founder credits, then I do run into drummers and bassist to have that same well, this needed to get done. So I did it, or so I helped or whatever. Like it feels like that.

00:09:07:27 – 00:09:15:47
Agent Palmer
Not I don’t want to say specifically. It has to be the rhythm section, but it definitely feels like that’s the, a part of it somehow.

00:09:16:00 – 00:09:24:24
Bryan Tuk
I’ve never thought of it in that way, but I don’t disagree. I think you’re I think you’re onto something that never had occurred to me.

00:09:24:29 – 00:09:33:29
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I just I just always run into more, of us, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Than the others.

00:09:33:33 – 00:09:57:03
Bryan Tuk
Okay. So just to sketch out, I think I have to sketch out the rest of the answer very briefly. So it makes sense to people who know me because some people know me as a musician type. Some people know me as a lawyer type. They both can coexist, despite what what people in my professional past may have thought.

00:09:57:09 – 00:10:12:59
Agent Palmer
I mean, but I’ll interrupt real quick, like, do our people when people find out you’re a lawyer who is also a drummer? Like, is that mind blowing to people? Is that is that kind of what you’re getting at? Like, oh my God, like a lawyer who’s not stuffy a like a lawyer who can like,

00:10:13:04 – 00:10:39:58
Bryan Tuk
It it, it breaks the narrative to some extent, depending on who the person is. Okay. So I it’s it’s interesting. So you have a blueprint of or an archetype of what you think an attorney is. There’s somebody that’s concerned with status. They want a big house. They want to shore house. They they want to drive a BMW, etcetera, so on and so forth.

00:10:40:05 – 00:10:52:39
Bryan Tuk
And to a large extent, there’s a lot of folks out there that, that, that profile. Nothing wrong with it. I used to be suspicious of it, but it is what it is. It’s cool you’re in if you’re into that stuff.

00:10:52:39 – 00:10:55:14
Agent Palmer
God bless. Okay.

00:10:55:19 – 00:11:13:50
Bryan Tuk
It just wasn’t me. I’m not a golfer. I it’s standing around, for five hours. I just it drives me. I’m. I’m far too, It makes me uneasy. Okay? I’m a terrible person to vacation with. It’s awful. Also, I will readily admit I’m.

00:11:13:50 – 00:11:16:20
Agent Palmer
I’m. But I’m just like you.

00:11:16:25 – 00:11:37:13
Bryan Tuk
But the, the if you have a if you have an interest outside of of the law. Now I’m looking at it from the perspective of the legal establishment. Yeah. If you have a hobby, that’s fine. If you’re into birdwatching or fixing up old motorcycles, great.

00:11:37:27 – 00:11:38:22
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:11:38:27 – 00:12:10:43
Bryan Tuk
However, if you’re professionally competent at that other thing, that’s a problem. So if you’re not only a birdwatcher, but you’ve published, let’s say you’ve you’ve published 3 or 4 books of photography that are, of animal, you know, bird photography or. Yeah, books on that topic. And they are professionally competent and you could earn and living in that other role or let’s say you’re not into fixing motorcycles, but you in fact, have maybe you have a repair shop as a side business.

00:12:10:43 – 00:12:11:23
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:12:11:28 – 00:12:22:14
Bryan Tuk
That that could support you. Most professionals, I know it it makes them uneasy whether they say it or not. They don’t care for that.

00:12:22:14 – 00:12:28:10
Agent Palmer
Because you have, like like is it is there some envy here? Like, oh, my God, he got to do two things.

00:12:28:15 – 00:12:53:13
Bryan Tuk
I don’t really know. I think when you’re, when you’re an attorney in a law firm with other attorneys, see, most law firms let’s let’s rip. Let’s rip the lid off of some stuff. This is going to be cathartic. Most law firms are designed as they’re a pyramid. So there are few people who. And I’m not disparaging anybody.

00:12:53:13 – 00:13:21:13
Bryan Tuk
I’m just telling everyone this is how it works. It’s not. Maybe it’s not that different than a big company, I guess, but the the law firm structure for most, I would say 99% of the of the industry is generally a pyramid. So there might be a few people at the top, maybe they founded the thing, you know, and they and they’ve earned the right to be at the top because they founded it like they’ve worked it for 20 years, 30 years, whatever it is.

00:13:21:13 – 00:13:51:33
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. All the attorneys that come in, the new people, you know, a percentage of their earnings get funneled up to the top. Okay. So in other words, the more the term is leverage in the legal industry, boys and girls. So the more people that you can lever, the more money the, the top partners make. Okay. So that’s why expanding, in a sustainable way is so important.

00:13:51:38 – 00:14:08:04
Bryan Tuk
If you’re if you’re at the top of the pyramid because you’ve got more people to lever, more money flows uphill or flows up to the top however you want to think about it. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I you know, you’re getting me at a good point in life. Ten years ago, I would have been judgmental about that.

00:14:08:09 – 00:14:16:34
Bryan Tuk
But, you know, things are what they are. Yeah. And there’s no sense in getting resentful or but or but it you know.

00:14:16:34 – 00:14:53:38
Agent Palmer
It also sounds like that not only is that the structure and you have to be careful how you expand and who you bring in, but I think the reason you say it makes people nervous to have another thing is because there’s an amount of leverage that you have on a new attorney who wants to move up, that if they have a side business fixing motorcycles or, you know, publishing books on birdwatching, the leverage doesn’t like that.

00:14:53:38 – 00:15:03:02
Agent Palmer
What’s that? What’s the threat like? Oh my God, you’ll never make it higher up. You’ll never make partner. It’s like, well, that’s fine, because I have this other thing.

00:15:03:07 – 00:15:27:57
Bryan Tuk
Well, because the I have an answer. Okay. And the reason that the reason for that is you want everybody at the base of the pyramid pulling as hard as they can in the same direction. Seven days a week. Seven is top 6 or 7, okay? Because, professional services, whether it’s accounting or law or whatever, it’s not scalable.

00:15:27:57 – 00:16:05:48
Bryan Tuk
That’s the problem with it. That’s the Achilles heel of the legal industry. You it’s not a scalable business. I can’t develop a widget or an app and then go sell 20 million units. I only have 2000 hours a year that I can sell. Okay. And all of my people might have 2000 or 20, 220 200 hours. To be build a year would require chronologically, you know, from an actual time standpoint, you’re requiring people to be in the office basically 12 hours a day, times five and a half or six.

00:16:05:48 – 00:16:06:41
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:16:06:46 – 00:16:30:52
Bryan Tuk
In order to hit that target. And of course, you know, that’s, tough to sustain. So if that’s what you want, if you’re at the top of the pyramid, you need people at the base of the pyramid to be pulling as hard as they can as long as they can, because, again, we can’t scale, ours. It’s you only have a finite amount of them.

00:16:30:52 – 00:16:54:31
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. So, anyway, so back to the creative thing. So that’s. So I decided like ten years ago when I had as I was turning 40, I decided if I didn’t start my own, if I didn’t go out on my own and, and be my own boss, I was never going to do it, okay? Like I was going to blink and be 50 and then, you know, you’re at a different place in life.

00:16:54:36 – 00:17:31:04
Bryan Tuk
So I went out, I started my own practice. I’ve been solo ever since. I don’t have employees. I don’t have an assistant. I don’t have a scheduler. It’s just me. It’s just me against everybody. The economy, you know, time, you name it. And, by virtue of doing that and having total control over my schedule, I can then devote more time to creative things, whether it’s music, whether it’s, promoting concerts, whether it’s, creative writing, etc..

00:17:31:19 – 00:17:32:24
Agent Palmer
Okay, so.

00:17:32:29 – 00:17:57:42
Bryan Tuk
I started, a teaching studio. I’ve always I’ve always had on and off 1 or 2 students, drum set students primarily. And in, 20. Oh, this is like 2016, 17. I started thinking, you know, this could be a viable business where where we where we live is kind of geographically right in the middle of four school districts.

00:17:57:46 – 00:18:21:25
Bryan Tuk
And there’s a big potential market. Yeah. You know, how many, you know, and this is and really it’s a it’s a micro business, but it sustains us, you know, it pays the rent, it pays for the car and all that stuff. So you just like any so just like any small business person, when they’re trying to figure out what the heck they’re going to do, you look at what the potential market is.

00:18:21:25 – 00:18:51:13
Bryan Tuk
You try to identify who your ideal customer is, and you try to define them as specifically as you can. Yeah, and in going through that exercise, I realized, okay, if I had X number of students at Y monthly revenue. Yeah. Without getting into the numbers. Yeah. That would, that would keep a roof over our heads. Are we are we going to have a house in Stone Harbor.

00:18:51:18 – 00:18:55:45
Bryan Tuk
No. Are we going to, you know.

00:18:55:50 – 00:18:57:29
Agent Palmer
You’re not going to have a second house.

00:18:57:34 – 00:19:33:25
Bryan Tuk
We’re not going to have a second house. We’re not going to drive. You know, Porsche nine elevens or anything like that. But, it’s a much from a psychological standpoint. I think it’s a much healthier way to live because I know I’m contributing to the lives of other people in a positive way. Yeah. And just as I look back, like I remember my first drum teacher, Henry Robinson, er, played in the Air Force band, was a Curtis Institute, graduated from the Curtis Institute in Philadelphia.

00:19:33:30 – 00:19:58:15
Bryan Tuk
And I remember those I remember those lessons like, vividly. And he was kind of this figure that just not a, not a father figure or nothing like that. But just like he was like your favorite baseball coach when you were on in T-ball or high school sports or, you know, the high school football coach that kind of gave you some things that sTuk with you.

00:19:58:15 – 00:20:07:09
Bryan Tuk
So when you were later on in life, you would remember back to, yeah, you know, first thing is got to be prepared. Like whatever the, you know, whatever the.

00:20:07:09 – 00:20:30:26
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean I still I don’t, I don’t see now I can’t remember which coach, but one of my cross-country coaches was like, if you if you’re on time, you’re late. If you’re earlier on time. Right. And that’s, that’s been a thing that like, I know some people in my life are like, why is he always early? But like that was drilled into us at that point and like it’s it’s sTuk through like I’ve not forgotten that 100%.

00:20:30:26 – 00:21:04:29
Bryan Tuk
And and I and I think they’re also with the and I know this is I know what I’m about to say is going to sound trite, but with the way the arts curriculum is generally handled in public schools, it’s not given the same. In my opinion. It’s not given the same footing in the schedule or funding that it ought to have in terms of developing a skill set in students that they can apply to other disciplines.

00:21:04:29 – 00:21:26:24
Bryan Tuk
So like, we want creative people. Yeah, they solve things, they solve problems, they innovate new services and products. Maybe they’re not, playing a concert to 50,000 people, but they might go into software or medicine and they might figure something out that conventional thinkers missed.

00:21:26:36 – 00:21:26:58
Agent Palmer
Sure.

00:21:26:58 – 00:21:36:21
Bryan Tuk
So I, I view sort of on a macro level, I view the drum set really as a vehicle to teach creative thinking.

00:21:36:26 – 00:21:37:22
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:21:37:27 – 00:21:46:29
Bryan Tuk
You know, and it just happens to be drum set. It could be guitar. It could have been, you know, anything else, but I drum sets what I got. So that’s what I’m going to use.

00:21:46:38 – 00:21:50:29
Agent Palmer
So where we have to go back for a second. So if, if, if.

00:21:50:40 – 00:21:51:31
Bryan Tuk
I’m all over the road.

00:21:51:40 – 00:22:03:07
Agent Palmer
No no no no, that’s, that’s that’s how these things go. If the drum set enters your life, 10 or 11. When do you decide? Like, I think I want to go to law school.

00:22:03:21 – 00:22:28:41
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. So that was, I fell victim to. I don’t know what you want to call it. The the, you know, the the suburban, the, the the middle class suburban expectation. You go to college, you get out of college, you’re going to meet a nice girl or guy or whatever your thing is. Yeah. You’re going to settle down.

00:22:28:46 – 00:22:49:16
Bryan Tuk
You’re going to buy a house, you’re going to get a dog, and you’re going to have, you know, two and a half children or whatever. The thing is, and I, I, I felt, you know, like everybody else or everybody else that I knew, that seemed to be what they were doing. And I got out of college and I thought, jeez, I better, you know, I better do all the stuff.

00:22:49:21 – 00:23:12:38
Bryan Tuk
So, which I did. And, the law school thing was, was part of that. Okay. And I thought, okay, I need to let’s get a respectable job here. And, and, let’s see. Yeah. My, I mean, my, my oldest, was born, you know, a year after I got out of law school and got my degree and, you know, pass the bar.

00:23:12:38 – 00:23:23:03
Bryan Tuk
By the time all that happened, maybe like a year later, my daughter was born, and, and then we were in, you know, family mode,

00:23:23:08 – 00:23:23:49
Agent Palmer
After that.

00:23:23:58 – 00:23:33:55
Bryan Tuk
Okay. So that’s that’s really, that’s really like, it’s really the establishment thing, kind of was a detour. It just happened to be very lengthy.

00:23:34:06 – 00:23:39:43
Agent Palmer
No, no. That’s so so what was the bachelor’s degree and before law school business okay.

00:23:39:44 – 00:23:46:59
Bryan Tuk
So I, I so, let’s see, I went to West Chester University. I was a music education major.

00:23:47:12 – 00:23:48:21
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:23:48:25 – 00:24:01:10
Bryan Tuk
At the time. It is not like it is now. The job market. That is. So at the time, there were more, many, many more graduates than there were jobs.

00:24:01:10 – 00:24:01:31
Agent Palmer
Okay?

00:24:01:31 – 00:24:28:58
Bryan Tuk
It was bad. It was. This would have been round about like 91, 92. And anyone that was, of my age can will be able to back me up on that. Nowadays they’re looking, you know, public schools are looking to certify, you know, their alternate certification program. So even if you don’t have an ed degree, you could become a public high school teacher rather easily because they need good people to fill those jobs.

00:24:28:58 – 00:24:55:26
Bryan Tuk
Yeah, because it’s a hard job. It’s not money like a lot of my friends are public school teachers, and, it is a tough gig. I don’t care what anybody says. And I know how people that don’t work in the public sector view public sector employees, either they get the summers off and that that I do not listen what goes on during the school year is not something that everybody can navigate.

00:24:55:26 – 00:24:58:01
Bryan Tuk
Oh, I need a job. It’s I have to.

00:24:58:13 – 00:25:20:19
Agent Palmer
I have no problem admitting that I was not a great student like I if you if you had me as a public school teacher and, I didn’t like you or we didn’t connect in some way, you needed the summer to recover from teaching me for, you know, whatever the school year was. So I get it like that.

00:25:20:20 – 00:25:49:43
Agent Palmer
It’s not easy. I will say, though, like music education, like, I, I, I got lucky that I was in a place where, you know, I picked up the saxophone in fifth grade. I, I had a I picked up the guitar on my own, but there was a guitar class along the way somewhere, and so.

00:25:49:43 – 00:26:07:04
Agent Palmer
And I was in all the bands with, you know, I, I switched from alto sax to tenor sax at a certain point. And then I was in all the bands, but I had those opportunities in, in, in my public school, like I could be in jazz band and pep band and marching band and concert band and, those were all options to me.

00:26:07:04 – 00:26:24:02
Agent Palmer
And I know that, like, as things get cut, I’m just thinking, like the generation behind me and the generation behind them. Yeah. Like they don’t. Maybe they won’t. Maybe they’ll get a marching, maybe they’ll be in marching band. But there’s no there’s no funding for a pep band or there’s no funding for a jazz band. And so.

00:26:24:02 – 00:26:53:53
Bryan Tuk
Yeah, and on and off in the performance, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean. No, no, no, no, you’re good. But to your point. So when when public schools, at least in Pennsylvania, I actually I shouldn’t say that. I don’t know if every Pennsylvania district does this. So whoever’s listening, please correct me if I’m off base, but I do know the district we live in that our, you know, my kids went through, went to this scheduling system called block scheduling.

00:26:53:53 – 00:26:57:10
Agent Palmer
I’ve heard about this. It didn’t exist for me. Yeah. So.

00:26:57:10 – 00:27:04:51
Bryan Tuk
Correct. So before block scheduling, you would have your arts, segment. You’d have that every week.

00:27:04:56 – 00:27:05:36
Agent Palmer
Yeah.

00:27:05:41 – 00:27:28:58
Bryan Tuk
With block scheduling, it’s a six day rotation. So you have, you know, ABC, d s let’s say we’re going to call each one of those days a letter. If you’re, if you’re a day has a jazz band in it, then on Monday which is a day you have jazz band the following week it’s on Tuesday, the following week it’s on Wednesday.

00:27:29:00 – 00:27:31:24
Bryan Tuk
So there’s going to be a week where it skips.

00:27:31:24 – 00:27:31:55
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:27:32:09 – 00:28:18:28
Bryan Tuk
And and it’s just it doesn’t sound like a big deal, but it’s a, it’s a effectively a reduction in in services. It’s really what it is. The other thing that, you know, will surprise you is that in some districts, arts organizations are responsible for their own transportation budget. So if you want to take your marching band, let’s say, to a competition or to a game, that the price of the busses, this is going to surprise people comes out of the marching bands category in the, in the budget.

00:28:18:33 – 00:28:30:22
Bryan Tuk
So if a bus is $1,000 a piece and you need four busses, well guess what? To go to this competition, you need $4,000 just to get,

00:28:30:26 – 00:28:34:32
Agent Palmer
And, and if that includes the driver and.

00:28:34:36 – 00:28:49:10
Bryan Tuk
Yeah, that’s labor. That’s everything. So they, you know, they’ll have a price built into the to the, to the budget, which, you know, one unit of bus, you know, a bus, a driver and fuel for one day is, let’s call it $1,000.

00:28:49:10 – 00:29:04:17
Agent Palmer
So that’s that’s what that’s, sousaphone, that’s, a tenor like that. That’s the these are instruments that the school could have. I mean, that’s money that could have gone to instruments for the students to play. Right? Like that’s. Yeah.

00:29:04:27 – 00:29:24:29
Bryan Tuk
So it’s it’s, there are other factors that come into play that, that kind of work against the arts function in public education. So this is why connecting this up to where I started. Yeah, I speak in circles. I’m sorry.

00:29:24:30 – 00:29:27:15
Agent Palmer
Oh, sorry.

00:29:27:19 – 00:29:55:21
Bryan Tuk
This is why private music instruction is in demand. Because there is a need. Otherwise, there. You know, if there was, if it was being adequately done in, the public schools, the private studios wouldn’t be around. And I’m not saying anything against any educator. It’s a budget thing. It’s a scheduling thing. And it’s a, you know, it’s a staffing thing.

00:29:55:21 – 00:29:58:27
Bryan Tuk
Like there are not.

00:29:58:31 – 00:30:03:45
Bryan Tuk
The music educator, public music educators have a very, very, very tough.

00:30:03:50 – 00:30:34:15
Agent Palmer
Well, I think I think it’s also, and I don’t want to get too political, but it’s also, priority. Right. Like there’s a the we have found a way as a society as a whole to de-emphasize, arts education in general. Now, sadly, in this country, we’ve also de-emphasized science and math, but we’ve done for sized education.

00:30:34:15 – 00:30:44:50
Agent Palmer
It feels like. But the arts has kind of gotten a lot lost. I feel like potentially, you know, and I’m, I’m a I’m a.

00:30:44:55 – 00:30:54:57
Agent Palmer
I don’t like saying this, but like, I’m technically an elder millennial. I hung out with kids older than me, so I have a lot more Gen X in me than I do millennial. Millennial.

00:30:54:57 – 00:30:55:57
Bryan Tuk
But okay.

00:30:55:57 – 00:31:10:14
Agent Palmer
As a shoulder generation person and knowing what true millennials not elder like myself, but just true gen millennials had as as arts education. I might have been the last like.

00:31:10:14 – 00:31:10:36
Bryan Tuk
That.

00:31:10:36 – 00:31:50:35
Agent Palmer
Generation that actually had. Not only did I have access to all of the music stuff, but I had art class where we were taught to draw and paint. Like there were things specifically that we had access to that felt like, okay, this is fine. And then as we grew up and we went to college and then we got out of college, and you hear about like younger sisters and then eventually kids of friends that have like, no arts education or very like they didn’t have our access, so they would never would have known they were good at drawing or painting because they never got introduced to it.

00:31:50:35 – 00:32:23:33
Agent Palmer
Right. And so that feels like, whoa, hold it. Step back. And to your point from earlier, it is about a mindset thing. And I think that unless it’s unless it’s a priority at home, we’re not introducing that to other people. So unless your parents are artistic in some way or prioritize the arts on your behalf, it’s not going to you’re not going to have a light bulb moment in school like, oh, I, I really think I want to try that trumpet or I really want to try and pick up painting.

00:32:23:42 – 00:32:55:39
Bryan Tuk
I think you’re you’re right. Especially on the generational thing in your your cohort being the last, to have more available arts education in public schools. You’re 100% right. That’s that rings true to me. You know, with witnessing at home, it’s interesting because so at any given time I have between, let’s say, between 25 to 35, students at a time.

00:32:55:39 – 00:32:56:42
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:32:56:47 – 00:33:21:31
Bryan Tuk
This took a while to figure out how to make this work. By the way, this is not this did not just click together, but in any event. So I’m very fortunate that there are students that come to work with me. And, their parents are some of the most engaged, enthusiastic people. Like, everybody wants their their kid to succeed.

00:33:21:36 – 00:33:47:06
Bryan Tuk
Yeah, by and large, I sound. But the the the parents that I interact with who bring their son or daughter to their lesson every week and you they are they are in my view, they’re they are heavily invested in the fact that their son or daughter has something they’re enthused about.

00:33:47:08 – 00:33:48:30
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:33:48:34 – 00:34:13:07
Bryan Tuk
You know, that that gets them excited. It’s also the other thing about the way I do things with my students is there are no screens in the studio at all. So everything that we’re it’s all old school. We’re reading paper off of books like this is by design, and I know there are there are tools out there that will help people visualize things.

00:34:13:21 – 00:34:35:32
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. Like there’s all kinds of tools where, I’ll describe this and then I’ll analogize it to something that maybe makes more sense. But there are a program there. There are websites out there where you can upload a PDF, let’s say of musical notation. And for those who don’t play instruments, they’re going to be like, what the hell is this stick?

00:34:35:32 – 00:34:37:33
Agent Palmer
Like, no, I get it. Like, stick with me.

00:34:37:33 – 00:34:38:14
Bryan Tuk
There’s a I.

00:34:38:14 – 00:34:46:35
Agent Palmer
Think there’s I think there’s a, I think there’s a way. Because like so during the height of the pandemic, I bought, a very cheap electric drum kit.

00:34:46:39 – 00:34:47:37
Bryan Tuk
Okay.

00:34:47:42 – 00:35:02:24
Agent Palmer
Because I hadn’t played drums, I hadn’t picked up sticks in a long time. Like, I’m not a I’m not a well, I’m a I’m a purely well-rounded musician. I can play a lot of things poorly and I can play a few things. Okay.

00:35:02:29 – 00:35:03:55
Bryan Tuk
That’s an interesting way to put it.

00:35:03:55 – 00:35:32:11
Agent Palmer
But the thing about this particular set was, one of the things that was crazy about it was like it the, the, the, the pad that powers the whole thing has lights that correlate to each of the different things. And so if I wanted to play around with it, I could watch that and it would say, hit the high hat, hit the bass drum, hit the snare, and I could follow the pattern without having to read music.

00:35:32:16 – 00:35:59:01
Agent Palmer
And these are kind of the electronic things you’re talking about, but you also don’t learn to read music, which is a part I don’t, I don’t I would have to take another course to relearn to read music. It’s been so long. I’ve been in tabula chairs and like, oh, it just it look at the chord and play along with the guitar.

00:35:59:06 – 00:36:14:41
Agent Palmer
I haven’t done music. I probably haven’t read music since I picked up my tenor saxophone, if I’m being honest. And that’s been 20 years, I don’t. It’s been decades. But there are these things that do make it easier, but I don’t know that it makes it better.

00:36:14:46 – 00:36:45:02
Bryan Tuk
I yeah, it’s you’re 100% right. So what I was alluding to is you can use a website based system and it will click off the, the tempo, and then there will be a highlighted cursor that follows the notation in time so that it helps your eyes follow where they’re supposed to be. And it’ll play the rhythm out loud so you can hear it.

00:36:45:02 – 00:37:26:44
Bryan Tuk
You don’t have to imagine it’s being said to be okay. And in my view, and in my experience, that does not it does not help you. It’s so, intentionally I do things the hard way because I think it makes the students stronger. It the idea that here’s a, here’s a piece of paper with some, designs or characters on it, and you have to look at this, decode what it says, have enough, context as a player to hear the rhythms in your head while you’re looking at the thing before you actually play it.

00:37:26:49 – 00:37:32:31
Bryan Tuk
That’s a different skill set than looking at a screen and having having it show you where to go.

00:37:32:31 – 00:37:55:42
Agent Palmer
So I, I am, I am an example in different ways of both of these approaches to learning. In, in high school, I learned to read music. You’re in the marching band. Here’s the sheet music. You’re in concert band. Here’s the sheet music. You got to read it. You got to play it. But. And maybe it was the rabbi.

00:37:55:42 – 00:38:11:08
Agent Palmer
Maybe it was just my poor grasp of Hebrew. When it came time to learn my Torah portion for my bar mitzvah, my rabbi handed me a cassette tape and just said, here’s the portion. Memorize it right?

00:38:11:08 – 00:38:13:20
Bryan Tuk
Which is just learn it. Learn it phonetically.

00:38:13:20 – 00:38:36:42
Agent Palmer
Learn it phonetically, which is kind of like hearing it and being spoon fed it and not actually learning the thing. So while I could probably get a refresher and get back into reading music in about a day I’ll never like, there is no refresher for me for Hebrew because I never really learned to read it to begin with.

00:38:36:42 – 00:38:57:18
Agent Palmer
Right? You know, so so I have no basis, whereas musically I do. And I think that’s kind of what you’re talking about, like that hard way. Yeah, it’s hard, but like, it’s still in me somewhere. I know that to read sheet music, it’s just, muscle memory, whereas Hebrew, I have no muscle memory. I just know that piece.

00:38:57:23 – 00:39:28:42
Bryan Tuk
A refresher would imply that it was fresh at one. Okay. But I’m with. No, no, I’m with you. Yeah, yeah, it’s, I mean, I get it, we can’t allow convenience, in my opinion. And this is like. Like this is a cultural thing. There’s far too much of a emphasis or a premium on on convenience. I agree, it could be consumer products.

00:39:28:42 – 00:39:53:03
Bryan Tuk
It could be whatever. Yeah. It just it it makes people weaker by definition to some extent. So I don’t know I have no answer for that. But in my own little corner of the world, I’m going to, try to continue the standards that I was held to when I was, you know, when I was that age. I think, you know, I think it’s beneficial.

00:39:53:08 – 00:40:17:03
Agent Palmer
I, I agree, I also think that there’s a, there’s an aspect of it that it depends on the who you are, but it also depends on how you grew up. And I think that if you’re teaching people who are growing up this, that they will remember that for the rest of their even if they end up not pursue, like even if they give up the drums at a certain point, they’re going to remember that.

00:40:17:03 – 00:40:45:32
Agent Palmer
And I think that’s kind of that thing where those of us who are older, who remember the internet as that quaint little thing that wasn’t full of everything, you know what I mean? Like the before times, when going to the library was a 5050 shot, maybe you’d find something on the internet for your report, but there’s also a greater chance you’d find a book that was more helpful.

00:40:45:36 – 00:40:58:19
Agent Palmer
For those of us that remember that period of time, maybe know how to problem solve a little bit differently, not better, but differently. And I think maybe more effectively. But that’s arguable.

00:40:58:19 – 00:41:25:03
Bryan Tuk
Yeah, I know I, I think that’s right. I remember boy, we’re going to I’m going to sound like a dinosaur, but initially the whatever was on the internet information was. Yeah, was not reliable in, in the eyes of your teachers. Like where, where did you get that? Oh, well, it was on you know, I can’t even remember.

00:41:25:14 – 00:41:25:47
Bryan Tuk
Well.

00:41:25:51 – 00:41:44:19
Agent Palmer
You know, maybe, maybe Alta Vista maybe. Maybe like. Oh, right. Like, yeah, I could I agree like, because I, I’m, I’m a little bit younger than you, but it, I feel like it might have been my senior year in high in, in college, my senior year in college that you were finally allowed to use the internet as a source when writing.

00:41:44:19 – 00:41:46:45
Agent Palmer
But up until then it existed.

00:41:46:50 – 00:42:00:39
Bryan Tuk
But like when when the establishment determined that there was a way there. Okay, this is how these sources are going to be cited. Yep. In the Chicago style manual or the MLA or or whatever you whatever you had.

00:42:00:44 – 00:42:01:19
Agent Palmer
Yeah.

00:42:01:24 – 00:42:06:53
Bryan Tuk
That’s when it was like, oh, all right. Now this is an official it’s funny the way that works isn’t it.

00:42:07:06 – 00:42:29:42
Agent Palmer
It is. But it’s also funny because like, I would argue that if if I go back to any of my papers senior year that have that citation, I would be willing to bet all those websites are broken like we haven’t done. I mean, that’s a different topic is, is the archiving of all our stuff. But I mean, that’s that’s for another time.

00:42:29:42 – 00:42:54:38
Agent Palmer
So I want to before we finish up, I want to ask you about drums. Okay. Yes. I feel you, you you obviously have played a myriad of things from probably you’ve probably played them all, especially if you’re a teacher now where you’ve done like a kit, you’ve done just snare and you’ve done, you know, everything in between.

00:42:54:43 – 00:42:55:44
Agent Palmer
Is that fair to say?

00:42:55:51 – 00:43:11:59
Bryan Tuk
In terms of the percussion family of instruments is pretty big. I wouldn’t say I played them all, but but yes, I’ve played timpani, I’ve played marimba, I’ve played vibraphone, drum set, snare drum.

00:43:12:04 – 00:43:13:29
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:43:13:34 – 00:43:13:59
Bryan Tuk
Yes.

00:43:13:59 – 00:43:26:08
Agent Palmer
What’s your go to if I say, hey, Bryan, your schedule opened up. You got an hour to pick up some sticks like what? What are you doing? Like, where are you sitting down. Like, what are you playing?

00:43:26:13 – 00:43:46:07
Bryan Tuk
If I am, if I’m at home and there are other people in the in the building, I have a practice pad. Okay? And a pair of sticks, and I might just turn some music on and and just play some rudiments or groove along with whatever I’m listening to.

00:43:46:09 – 00:43:46:29
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:43:46:43 – 00:44:16:11
Bryan Tuk
The the, the the physical act of having the sticks moving in my hands is something that relaxes me. I think, I’ve always told people, you know, if you if you ever knew any smokers when they stopped smoking and they’re very fidgety, they need like, they need something in their hand. There’s something about that for certain people. And I think, there’s something to that that calms people.

00:44:16:16 – 00:44:50:40
Bryan Tuk
If I’m here in my studio, which is located in a more industrial space with. No, there’s nobody around. It’s the drum set all day. Okay. I, I found a rare spot where, I have all my, you know, two sets in my studio. One for the student, one for the teacher. There’s some acoustic panels, up to control the, the sound a little bit, and you could play till 1011 midnight out here, full out with the PA, and no one is here to hear it.

00:44:50:40 – 00:45:00:54
Bryan Tuk
So, if I’m if I’m at the studio, it’s it’s drum set. You have to have the whole thing. It’s, it that collection of things is its own instrument.

00:45:00:59 – 00:45:05:20
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I I this is why I bought an electric kit, because, it’s like.

00:45:05:24 – 00:45:05:51
Bryan Tuk
Yeah.

00:45:05:56 – 00:45:31:23
Agent Palmer
I’m never going to get it. I don’t I’m not, you know, I, I underst like I’m a, as as a poor drummer. I’ve already started looking at more expensive electronic kits, but because I know that I’ll never be able to buy an acoustic kit, I. My wife would never allow that to happen. I think I think it’s bad enough that occasionally I’m like, can I play my bass without headphones?

00:45:31:28 – 00:45:52:57
Agent Palmer
And yeah, like that it’s a whole different thing, but I just, I, I, I there is something therapeutic about getting. I’m and again, I’m not that good but there is something, you know, just throw on some music, play along with it. Get the feel for it. There’s something very special and it’s different. I’ll just say this.

00:45:53:08 – 00:45:58:55
Agent Palmer
It’s very different on the kit versus, like, holding a guitar or a bass.

00:45:59:00 – 00:46:31:40
Bryan Tuk
Yes. Yeah, I mean, it. The electronic, instruments have gotten much, much better. The playing experience, the feedback when you strike these mesh, you know, like the electronic kits have mesh like fabric. Yeah. Kind of heads. Trying to think of the, the listener who might not know what the hell we’re talking about. And it used to be the, the playing experience that you’d get, was not very good necessarily.

00:46:31:40 – 00:46:40:52
Bryan Tuk
But nowadays the, the even the middle of the road, electronic drum kits are pretty good, like, I gotta say. Even.

00:46:40:54 – 00:47:19:58
Agent Palmer
Even the, even the low level one that I bought because I was like, they’re just because and and just to put it into context, the when we talk about playing and feedback, it’s not just about, it’s not just about I hit it and it sounds like it’s supposed to, or I hit it and it acts like it’s supposed to in the, the the the stick hits off the the drumhead like it’s supposed to, but like I watched the documentary on Phil Collins called Drummer First, which is an amazing documentary if anybody’s listening.

00:47:20:02 – 00:47:23:53
Bryan Tuk
But one thing, I haven’t seen it, but I know, I know what you’re talking about.

00:47:24:07 – 00:47:59:44
Agent Palmer
One of the things that’s sad about Phil Collins is that when he would play around with the old Simmons drum heads, that attributed to some of his physical problems now. Yeah, because there was no give. It was like hitting something different and, and just in, in just to put it out there like, I’m not a drummer and I just, I like watching people or having real drummers talk about, like the experience of hitting like a Simmons pad, which was more like a Simmons cement wall, like.

00:47:59:49 – 00:48:08:05
Agent Palmer
Right. You never you don’t quite understand it until like they they’re explaining and it’s just like all these things have come a very long way.

00:48:08:05 – 00:48:36:12
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. There’s those old the original Simmons, drum pads. The playing surface was not that different than a countertop in your home. Like a Formica. Countertop. There was no. All of the vibration from the impact of the stick went right back up the stick and into your hand. So if you’re gripping the sticks hard, if you’re holding on tightly, that vibration goes right into your joints.

00:48:36:12 – 00:48:56:23
Bryan Tuk
Now, that may not sound like a big deal. It’s not like you’re swinging a hammer. You know, we’re operating a jackhammer or something like that. But if you’re a pro musician and you’re doing 150 shows a year and you’re rehearsing and you’re you’re on those every day, it’s an hour. It’s not really. It’s like an occupational injury. Yeah.

00:48:56:27 – 00:49:05:49
Bryan Tuk
But yeah, they’ve gotten much better. But the first run, first couple runs of those back in the early 80s were not the best. So what I figure.

00:49:05:54 – 00:49:21:04
Agent Palmer
But I have to ask though, what’s your music like if you’re if you do choose like, hey, I’m here, I’m at the studio, I can sit down with the kit like, what? What’s your go to genre band song, whatever that you want to play.

00:49:21:18 – 00:49:35:29
Bryan Tuk
That’s a good question. I, I have to admit, this is for somebody that’s cultivated. I think all the records that I’ve released you could put in the jazz or fusion.

00:49:35:34 – 00:49:36:16
Agent Palmer
Okay.

00:49:36:21 – 00:50:03:48
Bryan Tuk
Genre. I still come back, like, if I had nothing else, it would be two bands. It would be either Rush or King Crimson. And that’s probably a function of my age. But when I listen to what Neil Peart played on a lot of these records, it has gotten better with time. Like, those performances have gotten better.

00:50:03:53 – 00:50:30:23
Bryan Tuk
They have aged well, I would say. And it’s funny because I, I put on like, let’s like, okay, perfect example. I had a student in yesterday, he’s probably in like sixth or seventh grade and we’re talking about he’s going to play a drum solo at this thing. He’s at a concert. He’s going to be in. So we talked about how to construct this thing, like, okay, just, you know, we’re going to make some scenes here.

00:50:30:23 – 00:50:58:13
Bryan Tuk
There’s going to be a beginning, a middle and an end. And I was trying to verbalize some things and I said, all right, listen to this. And I put on, the the record is exit stage last. I think it’s Rush’s second live record. It came out in like 82 or 83. And, it has one of Neil Pierce signature drum recorded drum solos on it, and I put it on.

00:50:58:13 – 00:51:23:02
Bryan Tuk
Now, this was recorded 30 years before this. This student was even born. Yeah. Like totally, you know, so it would be like me listening to something that was recorded in the 40s. Yeah. You know, or 30s or something. And as soon as all these, the snare drum barrage of notes started, the young man’s his mouth just, like, dropped open, like you could see the light bulb go on.

00:51:23:02 – 00:51:28:04
Bryan Tuk
And I’m like, all right, if this is relevant across four decades. Yeah.

00:51:28:15 – 00:51:28:24
Agent Palmer
You, you.

00:51:28:24 – 00:51:55:42
Bryan Tuk
Know, or and and across 2 or 3 generations, then, you know, it has a lot of validity for, for rock rockers. But my favorite band, hands down is King Crimson. And I think they did things that really pushed, it, they really set the pace for a lot of bands that came after them, for sure, and not commercially successful necessarily.

00:51:55:42 – 00:52:00:41
Bryan Tuk
But, if you’re if you’re familiar with them, that’s my that’s my thing.

00:52:00:41 – 00:52:10:07
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I have, I have that’s a, that’s a separate podcast is how many bands that we probably listen to that aren’t necessarily commercially successful.

00:52:10:07 – 00:52:21:29
Bryan Tuk
I’d like to be on the a guest on that one. Let me of course, let me know when you’re ready. But.

00:52:21:34 – 00:52:41:35
Agent Palmer
After a conversation such as this, my brain goes to one place, the West Wing. So I’ll start with Sam Seaborn. Good writers borrow from other writers. Great writers steal from them outright. So with his permission, I’ll steal from his boss, Toby Ziegler. There is a connection between progress of a society and progress in the arts. The age of Pericles was also the age of Phidias.

00:52:41:35 – 00:53:03:41
Agent Palmer
The Age of Lorenzo de Medici was also the age of Leonardo da Vinci. The Age of Elizabeth was the age of Shakespeare. And I’ll go back and steal from Sam one last time. Education is the silver bullet. Education is everything. We don’t need little changes. We need gigantic, monumental changes. Schools should be palaces. The competition for the best teachers should be fierce.

00:53:03:53 – 00:53:29:52
Agent Palmer
They should be making six figure salaries. Schools should be incredibly expensive for government and absolutely free of charge to its citizens. Just like national defense. This is where my brain goes when Bryan and I are talking about my generation and I’m starting to get old, being the last to have access to a broad arts education. Yes, Bryan and I benefited from the music education, but we also learned to draw and paint and work in other mediums.

00:53:30:00 – 00:53:53:57
Agent Palmer
We were allowed to find our thing. Sure, some of the impetus should be focused on making these things a priority in the home, but there needs to be more. As a product of public education, I see the value in it. Perhaps I got lucky, but perhaps I survived like the rest of my cohort, and we just hope the whole system isn’t burned down by people more well-off than the rest of us who don’t intend to send their kids to public school to begin with.

00:53:54:02 – 00:54:17:21
Agent Palmer
Education. When it is a national priority, is something special to behold. It’s something that can move mountains. And the arts, especially arts education, can do the same. But we’re missing out on generations who will never know. They are great at painting, or the drums, or sculpture, or guitar or poetry, or saxophone or photography because they never had access.

00:54:17:26 – 00:54:38:14
Agent Palmer
Everyone should have access if for no other reason than access would give many more people an appreciation for just how hard these things are. A good photograph is still a good photograph, but a photograph that’s a work of art is not just a single photo taken with a phone. A poem is not just random words on the page.

00:54:38:16 – 00:55:03:28
Agent Palmer
And don’t get me started on music and other forms of entertainment people take for granted, which are all based in the arts. The arts are important. If nothing else, you can remember that the next time you turn on a television series or watch a movie that has actors and a script and a director of photography, an editor and graphic artists, the arts are your entertainment and they are also best when done by humans.

00:55:03:28 – 00:55:23:54
Agent Palmer
But that’s another thing for another day. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 154. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact Bryan and myself in the show notes. You can learn even more about Bryan and his creative projects at the house of Tuked.

00:55:24:00 – 00:56:26:06
Agent Palmer
Com that’s the House of tea EW.com or for his legal work, Tuk law.com link in the show notes the music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent Palmer, dot com. I’m.

00:56:26:11 – 00:56:28:30
Agent Palmer
All right. Bryan, do you have one final question for me?

00:56:28:35 – 00:56:46:33
Bryan Tuk
Yes, I do now, this can be as big or a specific issue as you want. Okay. I like this is cool being able to be on the other side of the table here. If you had one thing you could change.

00:56:46:38 – 00:56:47:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah.

00:56:47:21 – 00:56:54:45
Bryan Tuk
About modern day life in general, what would it be and how would you change it?

00:56:54:50 – 00:57:13:24
Agent Palmer
I so I, I believe this has been asked of me before many times on the show and most of the time I gave the same answer. And I think, I think I always like to continue answering this because it feels like the answer should evolve as we get as time goes on.

00:57:13:29 – 00:57:13:54
Bryan Tuk
Okay?

00:57:14:08 – 00:57:36:57
Agent Palmer
But I always keep going back to the same thing. So I, I would, I would make the internet go back to dial up like I wouldn’t get rid of the internet, I don’t think I still think we need the internet, but I would make it so that, like it would you needed to wait. And that patients would mean.

00:57:37:02 – 00:57:57:21
Agent Palmer
And maybe instead of firing off an email or Google search, you’ll call a friend who might know, like, oh, Bryan might know the answer to this random trivia. This sTuk in my head. And then I’d talk to you and we’d be social. And instead of just, you know, what’s that one lyric from that one rush song about trees, right?

00:57:57:21 – 00:58:22:28
Agent Palmer
Like, just call up Bryan. He might know. And I feel like, you know, in, in respect to, you know, I could still do this podcast. I could still have my blog. Selfishly, I still want to maintain those things, but I don’t I think you could probably do them on dial up. I could probably render this podcast a little bit less kilobytes per second, and it would still sound good, and you’d be able to download it in ten minutes.

00:58:22:39 – 00:58:36:31
Agent Palmer
Maybe not instantly, right? But like I, I, I, I like that and if it’s not that then I would completely just keep the internet exactly as it is. No smartphones ever. And it kept.

00:58:36:34 – 00:58:48:02
Bryan Tuk
The dial up thing. Never even occurred to me. That’s a great that’s a great answer because it addresses many different ills. Yeah, at the same time.

00:58:48:02 – 00:59:11:32
Agent Palmer
But if not, then I’m getting rid of smartphones. It’s either that those are the two things, because I think that, being taught the internet, being tied to a place in your house, is very, very helpful and healthy because most people will get out and now people walking around on their cell phones think they’re out and about.

00:59:11:32 – 00:59:31:39
Agent Palmer
It’s like, well, you’re not really. But I think I still think dial up is the way to go. I really do. I don’t know, it’s and you know what? Here’s the thing. I’m I, I’m probably guilty of it less than most people because I, I purposefully now leave my phone in other rooms.

00:59:31:44 – 00:59:31:54
Bryan Tuk
Yeah.

00:59:31:54 – 00:59:50:03
Agent Palmer
Because if it’s not here I do that, I don’t need it. It’s fine I, I don’t and I the only thing I regret about that is that I am a, well I’m a podcaster, I’m a talker. So like if somebody calls me I want to be there to pick up and I don’t have a house phone, like I just have the cell phone.

00:59:50:08 – 01:00:17:03
Agent Palmer
And that’s most people now, that’s not even my generation. And most people don’t have a house phone. Right, right. But I’m okay with a missed call or to to not be, scrolling through whatever or mindlessly looking stuff up and, you know, I don’t know, I just, I want to be more social. I want to talk to more people, not just before the podcast, but just in general.

01:00:17:03 – 01:00:39:53
Agent Palmer
Like, it’s just, let’s go out to lunch, let’s have a conversation. And then a lot of people like, went. So when I first got let go and went on to this track of not knowing what the heck I’m going to do next, I was networking with a lot of people to try and figure out, like, what’s next? And then I stopped networking with people because everybody would ask, what do you want to do?

01:00:39:53 – 01:01:02:01
Agent Palmer
And I was like, I don’t know. And and apparently a lot of people hate that answer. But I would, I would there were a couple people I networked with more than once, and the difference between the people I only met with once and the people I met with twice or three times was did they pick their phone up during lunch?

01:01:02:05 – 01:01:21:01
Agent Palmer
It’s just that simple. If you didn’t pick your phone up, I’ll have lunch with you again. And I’ll. I’ll pay you every time because we’re having a conversation. We’re engaged. It’s fun. But if you’re on your phone, I don’t care how important your business is. Like ten years ago, you were. Your phone was at home.

01:01:21:05 – 01:02:07:02
Bryan Tuk
Right? It’s. It’s a, you know, we’re we have, I think, slept beyond the point where checking your phone or looking at your phone while you’re sat down across from somebody, you know, whether it’s coffee or whatever, that used to be an egregious breach of manners. Like you just did something that was rude to do. And now, I don’t know, I people do seem to be glued to these things, and I really try to, the one thing that I’ve been doing to to force myself away from it is, going back to physical books and, and reading.

01:02:07:02 – 01:02:18:16
Bryan Tuk
So instead of downloading it on Kindle. Yeah, you know, I’ll order a copy and I’ll have the book in the house, and I’m going to go sit and read for 30 minutes or 45 minutes.

01:02:18:16 – 01:02:43:45
Agent Palmer
I, I and maybe that’s something you and I have in common because I’ve been reading for a long time, but I have with the with the exception that I’m a blogger, and occasionally I’ll get an advanced copy that’s only an e-book or a PDF or whatever. Right? Right. I prefer a physical book. I 100% like, I just, I don’t know what it and I’ll go one step further and I’ve been a bit lazy on this front, but I need to do it.

01:02:43:45 – 01:03:11:01
Agent Palmer
Is I play a lot of guitar, mainly because it’s the easiest thing. It’s easy to pick up an acoustic and just play, but I’m trying to in my head, and I have a printer that works again, which I didn’t have for a very long time. I want to build my own songbook. There are songs that I know how to play right the way by the band.

01:03:11:01 – 01:03:31:23
Agent Palmer
I can play that right, like Don’t Cry by Guns Rule. I can play that. But there are other songs that I can play that I just can’t quite remember. And so. But I don’t want to have to look it up. I don’t want to have to stare at a screen if I’m, you know, I have a, I have, a guitar on every floor in my house at this point.

01:03:31:28 – 01:03:56:36
Agent Palmer
And it’s just like to have a songbook that I can just grab, just put on the coffee table and just. Okay, so now I can play like 15 of the Tom petty songs that I always remember. Three, but not all four of the chords. Four. Right? Like I just have that in physical form would be great. I don’t I don’t want to have to pull out my phone and scroll through it.

01:03:56:36 – 01:03:56:54
Agent Palmer
You know.

01:03:56:54 – 01:04:38:31
Bryan Tuk
There’s a huge, debate slash education that needs to happen with with creative people. I think primarily musicians because they’re the worst musicians or their own worst enemy professionally, from the standpoint of complaining about not making money and then doing things that sabotage, that make more money is, you know, sometimes intentionally, it’s absolutely shocking. But I saw, if I’m making records, I’m at least making a physical, at least a CD.

01:04:38:36 – 01:04:39:10
Bryan Tuk
Okay.

01:04:39:15 – 01:04:40:13
Agent Palmer
Yep.

01:04:40:18 – 01:04:44:43
Bryan Tuk
I would love to me, I have a plan. I have a master plan. At some point.

01:04:44:48 – 01:04:45:29
Agent Palmer
You’re going to.

01:04:45:33 – 01:04:46:27
Bryan Tuk
Have to master.

01:04:46:27 – 01:04:48:17
Agent Palmer
Everything and make it as vinyl.

01:04:48:22 – 01:05:17:17
Bryan Tuk
Well, I, I already have the vinyl masters I just need. So for everything that I’ve recorded, I always got three masters. The CD version, the streaming version and the vinyl version, they’re they’re different things. If you if if you’re not an audio engineer, that’s news if you are an engineer, you know what I’m talking about. I don’t know all of the specifics, but I do know that when I listen, when I a b, c these, if you will.

01:05:17:17 – 01:05:42:01
Bryan Tuk
Yeah, I can hear a difference. The difference if I’m listening on the same system. But if I’m making a record, I want the photography to be beautiful. I want the packaging to be incredible. I want the quality of the paper on the on the inside to be great. The writing in the liner notes should be everything about it should be an experience.

01:05:42:01 – 01:05:53:35
Bryan Tuk
Yep. And not just some thing that Spotify put in my AirPods that’s like, oh, you might, you might like this. You know, like that.

01:05:53:40 – 01:06:19:36
Agent Palmer
I’ve been thinking about this recently because, I’ve done two musical journeys. I’m on the second one right now where I pick like maybe 15 bands I create. I created, spreadsheet with all their albums, and I listen to them in chronological order. So I get to the first one, like I get to see how the Beatles and the stones and LED Zeppelin all kind of intermix, right?

01:06:19:36 – 01:06:40:20
Agent Palmer
Like as an example. But there were like 15, 20 bands in that one, and I’m on my next one now. And I’ve been thinking about like I’ve started, I’ve actually created a Spotify playlist that’s called Palmer’s Am, which is basically my radio station, which is every album I find track perfect goes there.

01:06:40:25 – 01:06:41:36
Bryan Tuk
Okay.

01:06:41:41 – 01:07:07:44
Agent Palmer
And the idea is I can shuffle it and know that I’m more likely to get some deep cuts because it’s only based on album. It’s not based on like this, that, and the other thing, but it got me thinking about how a lot of these albums that I put on this list that fills out this radio station, this fictional radio station, I don’t own.

01:07:07:49 – 01:07:28:31
Agent Palmer
And I’ve been thinking recently about, well, how do I want to own them? Do I want to own them? And CD, which is technically my generation’s vinyl? Do I want to go back and get the vinyl? I don’t know, but I just know that there’s a part of me that kind of wants to own it soon or find a like it’s expensive endeavor.

01:07:28:39 – 01:07:31:37
Agent Palmer
There’s so, so many albums.

01:07:31:42 – 01:08:00:00
Bryan Tuk
But it is. But we’ve become we’ve become used to this artificially low. You know what Spotify, what Spotify did was more damaging to the music industry and independent artists than than any other series of factors combined, and by itself has been more destructive to the lives of creative people than any other force. By by a lot. It’s not even close.

01:08:00:00 – 01:08:33:07
Agent Palmer
And I’ve discovered that the album also died because of it, because you can create a playlist with three pop hits and never listen to any of the rest of the album. And so people are not creating. Maybe you are, maybe independent artists are, but are are people out there still creating an album? Like, here’s an experience from track one through track ten, one, two, three, four like through as opposed to just I like track five.

01:08:33:07 – 01:08:34:48
Agent Palmer
And so that goes on my playlist.

01:08:34:53 – 01:09:08:20
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. I mean if you it’s interesting, if you look back, look way, way back to the beginnings of the recording industry, most, most vinyl were singles. Yeah, right. There was one song on side A, you know, there were 40 fives and there was another song on side B, that was it. Yeah. And then I think the album kind of evolved for industry reasons, to try to generate more money, primarily, more than anything else.

01:09:08:25 – 01:09:41:29
Bryan Tuk
And the commercial, you know, the commercial interests of the, you know, some of the tech people out there created the Spotifys and other platforms of the world. And what we’re left with are people that really want it. So, in other words, if you’re an artist, it’s in a way, maybe it’s a good thing. It weeds out a lot of a lot of, you know, filler.

01:09:41:34 – 01:10:03:39
Bryan Tuk
Yeah. It weeds out a lot of, like, you don’t really want to do this. You’re not going to get past the hurdles. You got to finance the recording yourself. You have to pay for the production yourself. And then maybe you get, you know, maybe you get maybe break even, maybe you lose money, I don’t know.

01:10:03:39 – 01:10:10:49
Bryan Tuk
So there’s a great book written by David Byrne of The Talking Heads called How Music Works.

01:10:10:58 – 01:10:11:56
Agent Palmer
Okay.

01:10:12:01 – 01:10:30:17
Bryan Tuk
And if anybody’s interested in the economics of all of this now, here’s somebody if you don’t know who David Byrne is or you don’t know who the talking heads were, they were they were a successful band in the in the 80s, in the early mid 80s. They sold a lot of records. They did major tours. They did the whole thing.

01:10:30:17 – 01:11:00:43
Bryan Tuk
He had been to the top of the industry. So he published this book 2012 okay. And in this book he he puts budgets in this book of this record. Here’s what was spent on it here. All the line items here were the sales. Wow. Here was the end result. And he does that for a couple of small tours and a couple of, of, records that he released as an independent, you know, post talking heads, part of his career.

01:11:00:48 – 01:11:25:59
Bryan Tuk
And it’s really shocking. And I’m like, if this guy is barely getting through it, I don’t know how you know. So you really have to want back back to that concept of, yeah, you know, you’re a creative person because you are. Yeah. And not maybe to make money if that happens, that’s great. But you’re playing guitar because it has to come out of you.

01:11:26:04 – 01:11:46:41
Bryan Tuk
You’re playing drums because it has. It has. You’re compelled to do so by a force that you can’t define. It’s just it just is, you know. So I don’t know if we if we addressed any of these questions for the audience to their satisfaction, but, we’ll we’ll find out, I suppose.

–End Transcription–

This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).