For episode eight of The Palmer Files, guest Sean Hizny joins Agent Palmer to discuss some of the finer things in life.
Sean and Jason discuss Sean’s career trajectory from higher education and a technical trade to the fine arts of Santa Fe in art galleries and studios, while along the way discussing the importance of art; traditional, fine, and animated.
Throughout the conversation, we cover:
- What is fine art?
- Why is art important?
- Photography
- Early Digital Photography
- Moving to Santa Fe
- Art and Craftsman
- Art as work
- Understanding the workings of an Art Gallery
- What makes a successful artist?
- The Hollywood Artist Lie
- Mental Illness and Art
- The Tortured Artist
- Art and Consumerism
- Entry Levels for Fine Art
- Animation Cels
- Digital Art
- Fine Art vs. New Media
- Galleries vs. Museums
- Owning Art
- Collecting
- Enrichment not Investment
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Listen to Sean on Moving The Needle Podcast.
You can also hear more Palmer in the meantime on Our Liner Notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and as mentioned on this show as co-host of The Podcast Digest with Dan Lizette.
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:12 – 00:00:30:38
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com Amazon Prime’s Modern Love Is Beautiful. Bob Dylan’s memoir Chronicles is poetic, and I’m still honored to have had Jeffrey use his reigning lunatic voice to ask me one last question. This is The Palmer Files episode eight featuring Sean Hizny, where we follow his career from higher education and technical trade to the fine arts of Santa Fe, in art galleries and studios well along the way discussing the importance of art, traditional, fine and animated.
00:00:30:43 – 00:00:54:54
Agent Palmer
Let’s do the show!
00:00:54:59 – 00:01:16:59
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this episode of the podcast is Moving the needle Zone. Sean Hizy. Here to discuss the finer things in life with me. What’s Sean’s background? Why is he here? Why is he even qualified to discuss fine art? Sean is here because once I learned that he spent time in galleries and art studios.
00:01:16:59 – 00:01:41:10
Agent Palmer
And I wanted to pick his brain about fine art, and, well, though we skip over parts of his career trajectory, his job history is pretty interesting as well. Throughout the discussion, we cover his background, and in doing so, we cover his qualifications. Not that they are required of every guest, but for this topic, I wanted to be able to ask him about artists he met and be amazed by his ability to call artists and their work up from thin air.
00:01:41:10 – 00:02:04:22
Agent Palmer
And he did. Of course he did. Now, I’d like to tell you something of Sean and I, because we go back a ways. For those of you who are familiar with my proxy cast, which is just a repository of every podcast episode, not my own, I’ve been on. For those of you who don’t know it, which until recently was, you know, every single one, then perhaps it’s been so long you’ve forgotten.
00:02:04:22 – 00:02:28:57
Agent Palmer
But after my first ever podcast appearance on The Stranger Conversations with Grant Markham, which I have discussed a lot on this show and others because it was the first and, well, because it would lead me directly to my involvement with Seven Days of Geek and eventually the long lost season two of The Stranger cons itself. It means that the other early episodes are often forgotten, but not by me.
00:02:29:02 – 00:03:01:29
Agent Palmer
The first time I ever podcast It Was Sean was my second ever appearance on a podcast, which was episode 87 of the original feed of Moving the Needle, where we discussed movies we’d seen in the summer of 2015 titled Indominus Cruelty. Since then, it’s not like Sean and I recorded that one time and became fast friends. No, he went on doing Moving the Needle until it folded and I continued on doing my thing and till the rebirth of moving the needle, where when it relaunched, Sean was the person in the host’s seat.
00:03:01:29 – 00:03:27:40
Agent Palmer
I knew the least. I knew and had met Henno. I had podcast it previously and tweeted enough nonsense in love of Transformers 86 with Roy. And of course I live with and love their other co-host Stef. But all this is to say that when moving the Needle relaunched, Sean was still very much a stranger to me, but somehow I ended up with his number and we started texting about stuff until I learned about his professional work.
00:03:27:45 – 00:03:55:10
Agent Palmer
Then I held it all to ask with the mikes on because why have a conversation twice when you can have it once and record it? Now about that one conversation, the one you’re about to hear. I had some technical difficulties with my studio that I’ve cleaned up to the best of my abilities. It’s possible you will notice them, but I made sure to mitigate them in such a way that they do not take away from the conversation or the subject at hand.
00:03:55:23 – 00:04:07:40
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s get to the conversation.
00:04:07:45 – 00:04:32:51
Agent Palmer
Sean, you are currently working within the fine arts industry, and you have worked in the fine arts industry, and you even went to school for fine arts. So I figured, who better to discuss fine arts than you? And maybe through this process and through this discussion, the listeners as well as myself will gain a greater appreciation for fine art.
00:04:32:56 – 00:04:36:34
Sean Hizny
Well, let’s hope, because it’s very important.
00:04:36:39 – 00:04:42:01
Agent Palmer
Can we start with the greater overall? Like why is fine art important?
00:04:42:13 – 00:05:20:07
Sean Hizny
Because it’s pretty much the most valued things in many people’s lives. If you think of what’s the most expensive thing that’s ever been sold, it’s not a car. It’s not a building. It’s art. If you think of what gets passed down from generation to generation, I think the things of value are things of fine art. Most often I think they have a place in our minds and in our homes that are really not able to be replicated or fit with any other thing necessarily.
00:05:20:08 – 00:05:31:29
Sean Hizny
You can you can certainly put in a nice print, you can have your own photographs, but I think fine art has a special place in most people’s homes, and it varies. You know, there’s a lot of different levels of fine art.
00:05:31:38 – 00:05:39:08
Agent Palmer
This is clearly not the Sean from long ago talking. This is the Sean from now talking. Right.
00:05:39:22 – 00:05:53:03
Sean Hizny
Well, I think I’ve always held art in a, special place. I think it’s always been important, and I think it always will be important. It’s some of the first things put down were drawings.
00:05:53:08 – 00:06:08:38
Agent Palmer
Where did that come from? Like, I mean, clearly you’re not a two year old going like, oh, I really like this painting. Like that’s that’s not how this works. So it was it your parents, like, was their influence within your family to appreciate the finer things?
00:06:08:43 – 00:06:43:54
Sean Hizny
Well, certainly. I mean, my dad was a very creative person. He was, a brilliant man, and he was an engineer, but he was also a very gifted artist and a, especially great photographer. And my mother was, an avid reader and writer and I think they certainly instilled upon me a value on, on more than just things, but creating and, and, learning how to translate what you’re feeling into what you’re, you know, into something tangible.
00:06:43:54 – 00:07:07:42
Sean Hizny
And, you know, even when I was very young, you know, one of the things we’d do on long car rides, this is many moons ago is just like a drawing game where you draw a scribble and then the next person tries to, draw it into something. And I think my parents were always very supportive of of pursuits, of creative and artistic things.
00:07:07:42 – 00:07:12:23
Sean Hizny
So that’s probably where it started at the beginning.
00:07:12:28 – 00:07:37:31
Agent Palmer
And so you are one of the few people I know in the fine arts industry. Now, I know you went to school and at one point majored in fine arts. The fact that you’re in the industry, I don’t know if it’s because you don’t have your degree in fine arts. Like, I don’t know if that helps or hurts you because I know a lot of people.
00:07:37:42 – 00:07:55:55
Agent Palmer
I went to school at a at a very liberal arts college. I knew a lot of fine arts majors and none of them are in the industry. Like none of them are doing professional art on any scale. So what did you originally attend? Higher education for?
00:07:56:06 – 00:08:18:29
Sean Hizny
I went to study fine art at a college. I grew up in Massachusetts. It was a college in Massachusetts, and I was, given the opportunity to attend on a, merit scholarship. Not full ride, but, close to it. So I signed up, I went, I did not really enjoy it as much as I thought I would.
00:08:18:29 – 00:08:51:35
Sean Hizny
I didn’t feel like it was something that was going to give me, the tools I wanted for for something, you know, down the road. It was hard to envision, a career as a painter. So within the first year I left school to to go to a, technical school of photography and really, focus my efforts on advertising, commercial photography and getting from there to back into the art world is a long and winding road.
00:08:51:40 – 00:08:52:10
Sean Hizny
So.
00:08:52:19 – 00:08:56:08
Agent Palmer
All right, is there, like, a cliff notes of, like, how many jobs?
00:08:56:13 – 00:09:21:36
Sean Hizny
So many. I mean, I I’m going to try to condense it and bring up the most salient points. So after school before. But as I was graduating, the dean put me and another students forward as, potential candidates for, job at an in-house ad agency in Boston. And luckily, my portfolio was the one they were more interested in.
00:09:21:36 – 00:09:43:30
Sean Hizny
So they offered me the job. And it was a very technical job. It was, you know, photographing silverware, flatware, that kind of stuff for ads for like, Modern Bride and those kinds of things. If you saw them in the 90s and they were of one of the major silverware companies, it’s a chance that I took that photo or at least set it up and did all the lighting.
00:09:43:30 – 00:10:05:20
Sean Hizny
So it was a great job to get straight out of school, and it was probably the only photography job, possibly in Boston that actually had health care. Photography jobs are highly competitive and usually on a freelance basis. Or, you know, there’s a few other ways in. And I found one that was pretty stable.
00:10:05:25 – 00:10:16:17
Agent Palmer
In-House for an agency. Like, are you shooting something besides silverware or is there side work, or is this like the main account that they have? So there’s just always something to shoot.
00:10:16:21 – 00:10:59:31
Sean Hizny
Well, the the corporation essentially built their own agency and photo studio within their complex. And so it is all of that, it’s, like catalog photographs which are oftentimes just the place settings and, you know, in a way that can will fit into stuff that they send out and then there’s the editorial style photoshoots where they will advertise in major bridal magazines and places like, like town and country and that kind of stuff where, where they will make a full set where you basically are photographing like a family or a Thanksgiving dinner or, you know, opulent wedding or so.
00:10:59:31 – 00:11:02:08
Agent Palmer
Did you learn how to set a table?
00:11:02:13 – 00:11:14:06
Sean Hizny
I am quite good. And I will know where just about any fork or utensil should be, according to the gods of, etiquette and, hospitality.
00:11:14:06 – 00:11:22:25
Agent Palmer
So you’re the guy I want to sit next to, and I’m like, all right, there’s, like, four forks here. I do not know. Like, I know in theory.
00:11:22:30 – 00:11:25:48
Sean Hizny
Yeah, I know where the salad fork goes and the demitasse bowl.
00:11:25:53 – 00:12:05:42
Agent Palmer
You work from the outside in, but if you skip a course, you’re screwed, like I. That’s where I get confused. Like, when do I go? For what and what? But first of all, because I went to an etiquette dinner when I was in college, and, I’m going to not say any names to protect the innocent, but like, I sat at a table with, like, the dean of students and I think the academic dean and all we did was make jokes, like in a fool etiquette dinner, you’re supposed to only pass to the right or to the left or whatever.
00:12:05:47 – 00:12:32:44
Agent Palmer
And one of the deans was sitting on my on the other side, and the joke was like, well, we don’t want the salt to go around the table. Just hand it to me. It’s like, but that’s against the rules, you know, these kind of things. So I, I only remember a little bit of etiquette, but I mean that’s got to be important for not only silverware because you want to sell more than fork, knife, spoon.
00:12:32:49 – 00:12:38:07
Sean Hizny
Well, you’re selling lifestyle and happiness and big events.
00:12:38:12 – 00:12:48:47
Agent Palmer
So, I don’t know if you’ll remember this, but what would be the largest place setting you set up? Like a party of what? In order to take a photo?
00:12:49:01 – 00:13:18:49
Sean Hizny
Oh, it was, some really big mansion in Cape Cod that we shot on location. It was like a family of, like, not huge. It was maybe eight people, you know, looking down the table and the the job when you’re in, you know, commercial photography is to make it look cinematic and intimate and also to make sure that every single square centimeter of the photo is perfect.
00:13:18:49 – 00:13:45:08
Sean Hizny
And this was, at the cusp of the digital world, entering in where, where things were more easily fixed. But you still need to start with the best, most perfect possible image in perfect perspective. So we still used large field cameras that adjust the plane of the front lens and the, the, you know, where the film is or the, you know, digital back as it was becoming.
00:13:45:13 – 00:14:16:27
Sean Hizny
And, so it was a lot of technical challenges and translating what the designers would sketch out into an actual photograph. And, you know, with silverware, it’s particularly challenging as it’s highly reflective. And earlier digital cameras or backs or cameras were very prone to having purple fringing, you know, and, and basically color aberrations from metal reflecting on its edge.
00:14:16:38 – 00:14:31:57
Sean Hizny
So it was really quite a technical job, but it really knocks you on your creative instincts as well. You have to solve solutions, sometimes creatively and in ways that you may not think of right off the bat.
00:14:32:02 – 00:14:55:27
Agent Palmer
So there’s some troubleshooting and problem solving that I’m sure we’ll come back to at some point, because I get the feeling that all of these skills kind of build, right? You know, what you learn and what you experience kind of build to where you are. So from photographing silverware, what’s the next stop?
00:14:55:32 – 00:15:22:46
Sean Hizny
Well, the next stop, not too long after that, the, the company essentially imploded after they tried to hire some hotshots from Reebok to turn things around, and didn’t quite work. So. Awesome. You know, I guess the shoe market and the silver market don’t overlap as much as they had hoped. So I, left there and sold cameras for a time and also, you know, was working freelance.
00:15:22:46 – 00:15:50:31
Sean Hizny
And within Boston, I was, assisting on, you know, on some other commercial studios. And from there I met my wife. We had a child, for the first four years of her life, we I stayed home with her. So I was mostly working on weekends and doing weddings and things like that. Stuff that I, you know, could do on with, you know, stuff that was weekend friendly.
00:15:50:31 – 00:16:11:53
Sean Hizny
And I worked for a, also a real estate company and their marketing department, you know, kind of doing their Photoshop mock ups and things like that. So that was, you know, covers about four years of my life, you know, working on weekends, but staying with my daughter, principally over the time. And then from there, we were living in New Hampshire at the time.
00:16:11:53 – 00:16:44:44
Sean Hizny
And I also did some other very odd jobs, like I worked at a casket factory for ten months. But, from there we moved to Santa Fe, and my daughter was getting to the age where we could put her into, daycare and not feel horribly guilty or like, terrible failures as parents. So I decided to test the market and found an interesting job as we were driving up, you know, all the way up or down, all the way down from New Hampshire to New Mexico.
00:16:44:44 – 00:17:07:16
Sean Hizny
I, had applied for a, a job as a registrar at a gallery in Santa Fe, and surprisingly, they called me back. They liked my background in that I did have some fine art training, essentially. And, the interview went smashing, and that was about 13 years ago, and I’ve been in fine art since.
00:17:07:16 – 00:17:17:07
Agent Palmer
Real quick, before we get back to fine art, you found the job during your transit two. But why? Why Santa Fe? Why was that a destination?
00:17:17:12 – 00:17:45:13
Sean Hizny
Well, for a number of reasons. My, then wife’s family had moved out there. We had visited several times and just fell in love with the the area, the space. It’s, just this strange place in the desert. It’s higher than Denver. And it has of culture that is fascinating. And the art market there is one of the major markets of the entire state.
00:17:45:13 – 00:17:50:56
Sean Hizny
It’s the third largest art market in the country or was at the time. I think it’s still right about there.
00:17:51:02 – 00:18:16:46
Agent Palmer
Up to this point where you start working within fine arts. You’ve gone to school for it, for a time. And since you’ve kept, your I, I don’t want to downgrade you, but it sounds more to me like you’re a craftsman as opposed to an artist with keeping photography as a skill. So I guess first, do you want to challenge me on that?
00:18:16:46 – 00:18:38:40
Agent Palmer
Like, because just the way it sounds to me, you know, the I have a a big Nikon that I, you know, it’s digital that I pull out from time to time and I don’t even consider myself to have remotely much skill with it. But it sounds to me like you’re a craftsman more than an artist at this point.
00:18:38:45 – 00:18:52:29
Sean Hizny
Well, I think it’s, a reductive way of looking at it. I think if you actually work with in the the art industry, you’ll see that most of the successful artists approach it as a craftsman.
00:18:52:34 – 00:18:52:57
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:18:52:57 – 00:19:15:02
Sean Hizny
And you’ll find, I think a lot of the times, successful artists that actually make a living in art are able to do a lot of things and have a kind of varied past. They’re not all people that went to art school that just started painting and have painted since, and just paint on canvas and, don’t you know, ever go from there to anything else?
00:19:15:02 – 00:19:37:30
Sean Hizny
I think it’s, you know, it’s a fair assessment for me. No, I’m not really working in creating art. I work within the industry, you know, creatively, the work I’ve done has been in marketing and advertising and photography. But, I think one of the key attributes you’d see with most successful artists is that they approach it as work.
00:19:37:34 – 00:20:08:39
Sean Hizny
It’s something that you don’t wait for inspiration for. You work through. I think, Chuck close has some quotes that are valuable in that. I think, people can get paralyzed by analysis or waiting for inspiration. And I think within that context, you have to appreciate that working is part of getting through something and finding that inspiration. And I think that’s valuable for just about any position in or outside of art.
00:20:08:39 – 00:20:10:32
Sean Hizny
Is that just working through it?
00:20:10:38 – 00:20:45:02
Agent Palmer
Well, it’s definitely part of the creative process. Like, I can understand that from a technical and creative and productive side of everything I do, right? I’m not necessarily inspired. Every time I sit down to write a blog post, and I like to think that the editing I do for this show is, you know, it’s a process, but I don’t sit down every time and I’m like, oh, great, this is going to be fantastic.
00:20:45:11 – 00:21:02:56
Agent Palmer
Sometimes I do, but sometimes it’s like, you have to get it done and it becomes work. Now, that doesn’t mean I hate the work, but it’s still a thing that you have to get through in order to get to the finished product. And the same goes for writing. You know, I’m getting reductive and going back on my thing.
00:21:02:56 – 00:21:25:45
Agent Palmer
I just said, but like there are times that you have to get through it. So I understand the work part of artwork, but you’re kind of on the periphery and you’re not really now at the point. I mean, I’m now jumping ahead in the story. I’ll say that I’m not degrading your photography skills anymore as a craftsman, but you’re not painting.
00:21:25:50 – 00:21:32:37
Agent Palmer
You are now a registrar in a gallery. What even is that?
00:21:32:41 – 00:21:55:10
Sean Hizny
Well, registrar is a lot of things. They are usually responsible for maintaining the inventory, creating, useful database of images, following up with artists, you know, taking the work in getting the all the details about it, the medium, what it is, what year it was made. It’s essentially a record keeper.
00:21:55:21 – 00:22:24:43
Agent Palmer
Do you get to be critical of the people making the curation decisions, like, I mean, because clearly registrar is mainly admin, you’re kind of at the bottom, but like, do you you still get to see everything though. So like, you know, you’re not a country bumpkin coming right off the turn of truck. So like, are you like taking, making this database going like, what are they doing upstairs?
00:22:24:43 – 00:22:26:15
Agent Palmer
Like, well, it.
00:22:26:15 – 00:23:03:05
Sean Hizny
Really depends on the gallery you work at. They vary a lot. They’re big corporate galleries that cater to and are run largely by bankers. There are more intimate ones run by families or or, you know, artists themselves. It it varies a lot. The gallery that I first started in is one of the top contemporary galleries in Santa Fe, but they were still small and they still had a roster of, you know, maybe 20 artists and they had maybe five people at most working at any given time.
00:23:03:05 – 00:23:30:16
Sean Hizny
And it depends on where you are, how the role of registrar works. It changes a lot, like the position that I had and the place that I had. I was, you know, largely responsible for maintaining the website for, you know, taking in work, managing the inventory, following up the mailing list, keeping it clean, you know, doing some work on catalogs that we’d print out for upcoming exhibitions.
00:23:30:21 – 00:23:58:59
Sean Hizny
So but that’s not the registrar everywhere. The registrar at, you know, say, a major corporate gallery. We’ll just basically be doing recordkeeping and inventory maintenance. So it varies a lot. And, you know, it’s I was very fortunate to get into where I did when I did, because it was right as they were taking on, you know, an artists that is become very, very, very big and successful and a contemporary of some of the bigger artists working today.
00:23:59:04 – 00:24:11:39
Sean Hizny
So I was just kind of at the right place at the right time. I, you know, where I was able to exhibit, you know, initiative and, you know, within the context of the art world that I entered, I was able to progress quickly.
00:24:11:43 – 00:24:24:57
Agent Palmer
Real quick, before we get to your progression, you said it was a small gallery. Now, is it the number of artists? Is it the space? Like what determines a small gallery?
00:24:25:10 – 00:24:46:14
Sean Hizny
Well, space. Really? Okay. Physical space. I mean, there can be, you know, and also the number of artists that you keep and the number of pieces of artists that you keep. While they may have kept technically about 20 artists, they would only have or have maybe between 7 and 10 up at any given time. And during shows it would be much less.
00:24:46:14 – 00:24:56:06
Sean Hizny
It would be, you know, two rooms for the main featured artist during the exhibition and then one room for the, for the other artists that they, you know, have in house.
00:24:56:17 – 00:25:01:07
Agent Palmer
And is that stuff seasonal? Like how often does that stuff change?
00:25:01:11 – 00:25:21:11
Sean Hizny
Well, in Santa Fe, it really is. Something that happens primarily over summer is when the most action happens. That’s when the big shows arrive. That’s when the most money is in town, is, you know, from, mid-June to the end of August. Is is really the high season.
00:25:21:16 – 00:25:29:44
Agent Palmer
I’m shocked. I, I’m literally shocked. Like, I would have expected your high season to be when the snowbirds are in town now.
00:25:29:49 – 00:25:56:06
Sean Hizny
They already live here mostly. You know, there are certainly a large influx of Texans that come through town during certain seasons. But in contemporary art, the biggest audience for contemporary art is when the opera is in town. That’s in August. Okay. There are people that that certainly by other work and more regional stuff and things that, you know, we call cowboy art here.
00:25:56:11 – 00:26:07:17
Sean Hizny
They they will be here all through the year. That’s a flow of art that, that, you know, can work for some galleries. But in contemporary artists, you know, the summertime is the high season back to you.
00:26:07:22 – 00:26:28:58
Agent Palmer
You move up the ranks. And I mean, is it I mean, you’ve got you get to know artists along the way. Right. So it’s not I mean, I do want to talk about the career trajectory, but on the other side, like you’ve gotten to know artists along the way, right? Like and probably quite a few of them that have come in and out of the various jobs you’ve done.
00:26:28:58 – 00:26:49:00
Agent Palmer
So is there something that makes one artist I don’t know better, and I’m not talking about the quality of art. I’m not talking about the end product. Which we can all argue over. I’m talking about the artist, the person themselves. Like, is there something that the good ones have in common?
00:26:49:05 – 00:27:21:20
Sean Hizny
Well, I mean, I think I was touching on an earlier when you were asking about the craftsmanship. I think the thing that a lot of successful artists have in common is they are very methodical in their approach. And there’s an important, part of it is, you know, staying open. But I think the most important thing is that the artists that are most likely to continue succeeding are the ones that approach it as something that they need to continually work at.
00:27:21:20 – 00:27:39:13
Sean Hizny
And I think it’s, you know, from like the perspective when I was a registrar, it would be that their stuff always shows up on time. They’re if we’re expecting to get ten pieces, we get ten pieces. If we’re expecting 30, we get 30. If we’re expecting it. And you know, by the first, it’ll be there by the first.
00:27:39:13 – 00:28:01:17
Agent Palmer
So you mean to tell me that the movies were lying to me, that like, somebody can’t tell a gallery like, oh, I’ll have ten pieces, and then I only get the inspiration the night before to create three masterpieces and show up and just still save the day. Even though you’re out. Seven paintings that I had promised you.
00:28:01:31 – 00:28:27:43
Sean Hizny
Well, it’s a narrative that I certainly take a lot of issue with, and it’s not what working in a galleries really like. It. It may be for some galleries, but I’ve worked at some, you know, high level as well as some mid-level galleries, and I have not seen anything quite like what you will see in the movies. And, you know, I think there’s definitely a conversation to be had, too, about the narrative of tortured genius.
00:28:27:43 – 00:28:52:07
Sean Hizny
And inspired brilliance. I think it’s largely apocryphal, and I think a lot of times it really gives a poor message of of art and creativity in general. I think the notion of the tortured, effortlessly brilliant artist is is largely unhelpful to anyone that would be interested in getting into the art world.
00:28:52:17 – 00:28:59:10
Agent Palmer
Have you met anyone close to the genius who puts no effort into it? It’s just like sprays from his fingertips.
00:28:59:15 – 00:29:24:38
Sean Hizny
Well, I’m sure that exists. There are people that that start off with a bigger head start than others. I think is a better way of looking at it. There are some people that that do just have an ability to tap into a creative element that other people will work harder at, and may never even come close to. There is some truth in to the narrative of, you know, a brilliant artist for sure.
00:29:24:38 – 00:29:51:11
Sean Hizny
And there is a correlation, between mental illness and some brilliant artists, but I think it’s a pretty lousy narrative that is way too celebrated and I think it in general is harmful to the first of all, anyone suffering from mental illness that doesn’t paint like, you know, that’s brilliant.
00:29:51:16 – 00:29:53:17
Agent Palmer
You have this illness, here’s a pay.
00:29:53:21 – 00:30:20:08
Sean Hizny
Therefore you should be creative. Therefore you should be able to write Gravity’s Rainbow or, you know, create Guernica or, you know, be Van Gogh. You know, I think people that don’t have, it’s something that I think. Can that coexist? But I don’t think that to be, say, Van Gogh, you don’t have to suffer from, you know, horrible mental illness in a time where it’s largely, misunderstood.
00:30:20:13 – 00:30:23:33
Sean Hizny
And I think, if you ask a lie now, you know.
00:30:23:35 – 00:30:28:12
Agent Palmer
Wait, are you talking about now? Because, I mean, mental illness is still fairly misunderstood.
00:30:28:13 – 00:30:54:20
Sean Hizny
Oh, it is, but I think if you ask people now that, you know, have some better understanding, if they would rather, you know, that they if they’re, like, kind of grateful for their mental illness because it helps their creativity. I think almost none of them would say yes. None of the ones I know would trade their their mental illness for creativity or, you know, basically sacrifice their mental health for creative, you know, inspiration.
00:30:54:25 – 00:31:37:34
Sean Hizny
I think a lot of them would say I’d much rather never touch a paintbrush again if I could, you know, not feel that. And I think it’s, it’s just, I think a harmful story that I think is tired and repeated way too often. And I, I deride it. I think it’s, I think in large part it’s unhelpful and it’s unfortunate because one of the things that’s sexy about art and, you know, as a writer, I’m sure you can relate the notion of the, you know, brilliant, tortured souls is is, you know, in almost every industry, if you think of the great writers, oftentimes they have these terrible pasts or tortured minds.
00:31:37:34 – 00:32:04:26
Sean Hizny
And it’s a notion that I have trouble with, kind of getting behind because it’s it’s in art. It also is part of the narrative that sells the story. Sometimes the curators or the gallery directors fall in love with someone story and it’s oftentimes I think not. I mean, I think it’s never more important than the art, but sometimes but the story is oftentimes what, you know, can help sell the work.
00:32:04:26 – 00:32:33:05
Agent Palmer
All right. Let’s let’s get back to your story, because I think a lot of the knowledge that you’ve just dropped on us, whether it comes from experience or just emotion or passion, comes from having been around the industry. I didn’t even know some of these were things because I’m not around the industry. Like I go, I’ve, I’ve been to my local art museum, I’ve been to a few local galleries.
00:32:33:10 – 00:32:59:58
Agent Palmer
I know personally, one actual artist, I guess. Two, I know a potter and a painter. But like on such a small scale, none of these issues ever really come up. So from a local perspective, most people probably only have my experience right? A small local art museum and maybe 1 or 2 galleries I’m now I’m getting off topic.
00:32:59:58 – 00:33:25:03
Agent Palmer
I want to get back to you before, I go on this, but let’s go down this road for a second. What is there beyond art museum and local galleries are like? What can someone do besides traveling to New York and San Francisco and seeing the big museums? Tristan talked about archeology, Twitter. Is there an art Twitter like, is that a thing?
00:33:25:08 – 00:33:53:03
Sean Hizny
There’s online galleries that you can find where you’ll find there’s increasing amounts of artists going on there and there’s galleries participating more within them. You can look them up. I mean, the art is probably one of the biggest Saatchi, online is another pretty big one. But there are online marketplaces of art where you can expose yourself to, and they’re open to a pretty wide audience.
00:33:53:08 – 00:34:13:29
Sean Hizny
I think that’s somewhere you could kind of start with a jump off. One of the places that used to exist was Tumblr was one of the big places for artists to put their portfolios, put their work out there. It was a great place for a while. Then it was bought by Yahoo, then it was bought by Verizon, and now just about no one uses it.
00:34:13:29 – 00:34:24:20
Sean Hizny
Pretty much when they took porn off, you know, a lot of people stopped caring about them. And the audience shrunk. And I think a lot less creative people were interested in it.
00:34:24:25 – 00:34:30:53
Agent Palmer
So they didn’t go anywhere. Like, you know, there wasn’t this mass migration to some other platform. They just kind of went, all right, well, I’m.
00:34:30:59 – 00:34:54:57
Sean Hizny
Kind of scattered, like they went to Pinterest and, like deviant art and, there’s just lots of lots of landing spaces, but there’s not really a central, you know, repository. There’s, you know, there’s places on Reddit where you can follow, you know, artists aspiring and in other levels that are trying to put their stuff out there.
00:34:54:57 – 00:35:26:02
Sean Hizny
But there’s I don’t think there’s really one space that they all kind of congregate to for a kind of, for a visual blog experience. There’s. Yeah, I’d say Pinterest is probably the closest. But again, with Pinterest, you can easily just get locked into, an echo chamber of art taste that will all kind of follow through and, and that’s one of the issues worth following anywhere that aggregates or uses AI or tries to find the thing.
00:35:26:02 – 00:35:44:41
Sean Hizny
The other things you may like is oftentimes it’s just going to be a lot of similar things. And I think the the bigger value is finding low. Even local galleries are going to give you a little more of a rich experience, I think oftentimes, and, you know, you don’t really experience art through a screen the same way you do in person.
00:35:44:46 – 00:35:53:46
Agent Palmer
Let’s get back to your you’re moving up the chain. And I mean, I guess at this point I get to ask, how high did you go?
00:35:53:51 – 00:36:15:35
Sean Hizny
Well, I mean, I got to the level of being just about the director of, pretty successful gallery in Santa Fe. And, you know, within the first gallery I started in, you know, within the first year I went to Art Basel for the full show, you know, and we were in two exhibitions there, you know, handled all of that stuff.
00:36:15:44 – 00:36:39:37
Sean Hizny
And that’s, you know, the arguably the biggest art show in the country. And it was a great experience. I was very fortunate. And again, I think timing played a lot, played a large role in it. And I think, it was a just a great time to be in Santa Fe and working in art. And so then from there, you know, I eventually got burned out of being at that gallery.
00:36:39:37 – 00:37:11:04
Sean Hizny
You know, the more responsibility you get, the longer hours you spend. The more of a job it really becomes. It’s a lot less glamorous when you’re dealing with all of, wrangling lots and lots, lots of people, you know, essentially herding cats and, it wears on you after a while. So I moved on to another gallery that was also very big and, very successful, but it was a little more removed from the high contemporary art realm.
00:37:11:08 – 00:37:31:08
Sean Hizny
It was it was more of like a no. I don’t know if I want to call it a Walmart, but it was, certainly more commercially viable work. More I mean, one of the things you see in the art world when you’re trying not to be insulting is decorative work, but work that fits with people’s couches more than is important.
00:37:31:13 – 00:37:32:49
Sean Hizny
So I saw that for a while.
00:37:32:50 – 00:37:58:01
Agent Palmer
It begs the question, right? Like, what’s the level of consumerism in the art world? Because I know creating a digital print is no longer the arduous task that it used to be. You can do that. You can have a gallery and just walk out with a poster. Sure, it’s not the same. It doesn’t have quite the same depth, but I can still hang that on my wall.
00:37:58:06 – 00:38:32:20
Sean Hizny
Well, I mean, there’s there’s nothing wrong with limited edition, you know, prints, they’re they’re still valuable. They will still gain value, but they are still expensive. They’re not posters. You know, they’re not mass produced. You know, the artist I work for currently, you know, we offer limited edition prints, but they’re very expensive. They’re, you know, up to $1,000, you know, and they are in, in many ways indistinguishable from, from the originals, unless you got close enough to see whether or not there was pastel dust, you would not know the difference.
00:38:32:25 – 00:38:59:43
Sean Hizny
And they are beautiful and they are just, you know, works of value of art. You can certainly in digital reproduce in mass and, I think that there’s a place for that and there’s, there’s no there’s nothing wrong with getting a poster of the work. Most people can’t afford a lot of artwork, you know. Hi. You know, oil paintings are expensive.
00:38:59:58 – 00:39:07:35
Sean Hizny
Even even the cheap ones are more expensive than most people can just afford as a indulgence.
00:39:07:40 – 00:39:28:59
Agent Palmer
I mean, I guess from I mean, you joke about the consumerism of, you know, things that go with my couch, but is that the entry point for most people, I’m guessing, I don’t know, like legit just guessing here, but like, is that the entry level for, like, I have a piece of art on my wall?
00:39:29:04 – 00:40:02:37
Sean Hizny
It really varies. I it’s it is not a prototypical collector. There are collectors that have, you know, saved for years to buy a certain artist’s work, and they’ll buy the most affordable thing of theirs they can acquire. You know, they have, attraction or a or they’re compelled towards. But, I mean, I think the idea of a collector being a certain way or entering in a certain spot is, is, largely not that common.
00:40:02:41 – 00:40:27:34
Sean Hizny
There are some things that are maybe a little more common. The the first thing a collector usually buys isn’t of a large tapestry or, you know, monumental size painting or something like that. They usually will buy something small first, but that small thing, depending on the artist, can cost, you know, $500 or $50,000. And and I’ve seen both happen.
00:40:27:39 – 00:40:41:16
Sean Hizny
Yeah. And it’s it’s just there’s just not a one size fits all thing. It just varies a lot. Oftentimes the first thing they buy is something on the smaller scale. But it’s it really runs the gamut.
00:40:41:21 – 00:41:04:56
Agent Palmer
So that’s fair because I’m thinking about my own history. Right. So I’m going to discount any of the art that my parents had that I either ended up with because it was hanging in my, you know, I liked it enough that I wanted to hang it in my room. There’s an astronaut piece in my living room that, you know, about three by two, three and a half by something.
00:41:04:56 – 00:41:41:05
Agent Palmer
I mean, it’s it’s fairly large. Right? And then. But I won’t count that because I didn’t buy that. I picked that out of a collection that I had access to being my parents. The first piece I ever picked out that it was purchased for me. So I can’t actually tell you cost, was about this. It was a piece when I was in, overseas in Jerusalem of a student sitting with a rabbi with a globe illuminating the room like a floating globe illuminating the room.
00:41:41:10 – 00:42:00:13
Agent Palmer
And I’m doing this from memory, by the way, like that’s also in my living room. But, like, honestly, probably it’s been a couple months since I’ve, like, actually looked at that piece, but that one, which I picked out myself, probably the size of a piece of paper, probably eight and a half by 11, like it’s not that size, but it’s about that size.
00:42:00:17 – 00:42:11:23
Agent Palmer
Is that as a standard like I mean I’m asking you to do the impossible but like is that along the smaller side that we’re talking about like about the size of a piece of paper.
00:42:11:28 – 00:42:28:15
Sean Hizny
Yeah. Something around between say eight by ten and 16 by 20 is what I’d consider a small work. And that’s oftentimes the first thing someone acquires, it’s not always, but I found it more often than not, the first thing someone buys is something on the smaller end.
00:42:28:15 – 00:42:59:51
Agent Palmer
Because then the next thing I get end up getting is then I get into a different kind of art, which is animation cels, like original animation cels, where that’s I’ve got animation sketches in my living room, and I’ve got animation cells in my office and, you know, that’s where my art gets really contemporary, I guess, because it was from another form of media that is basically extinct now.
00:42:59:56 – 00:43:03:14
Agent Palmer
Nobody’s using hand-drawn animation cels anymore.
00:43:03:19 – 00:43:20:43
Sean Hizny
Sure. And I think that’s an important thing, is we shouldn’t really I don’t think the the line between fine art and, you know, commercial art or digital art is really all that valuable to draw. I think, pun intended.
00:43:20:47 – 00:43:31:52
Agent Palmer
But, but but, no, I like it because what it means is that this is still art on my wall. Like you’re not going to come over and be like, that’s. What are you doing?
00:43:31:56 – 00:44:06:23
Sean Hizny
No, it’s. Yeah. I think that’s something I, I, often worry about is the notion of people feeling intimidated by contemporary art or fine art, high art, whatever you want to call it. It’s a moving target and it’s in flux. All the time. And, you know, there was a time when acrylic paint was considered, you know, not the high fine art or using or photography was not high fine art or color photography definitely wasn’t.
00:44:06:28 – 00:44:18:04
Sean Hizny
But it’s a moving target and it’s always changing. And I think the people that tell you otherwise or explain why something isn’t good, are people you don’t really want to be listening to anyways.
00:44:18:06 – 00:44:25:41
Agent Palmer
Is digital now the new like? Is that the new color photography? Yeah. Is it digital?
00:44:25:46 – 00:44:47:07
Sean Hizny
It’s currently the redheaded stepchild of the art world. I’d say. But it’s again, it’s only a matter of time before that changes. And just like, you know, 3D printing or something else that will come along, digital art, you know, the knock on it is the same knock on photography where it’s it’s infinitely reproducible without degradation of quality.
00:44:47:12 – 00:45:11:01
Sean Hizny
It’s only available in, you know, a printed form or through a screen. Therefore it is less. But I mean, I think it’s just, argument that I just don’t really feel is is worth much time because I think it’s like, you know, with you and with words, you know, language is always on the move as well. It’s constantly in flux.
00:45:11:01 – 00:45:41:19
Sean Hizny
It is something that moves at a fast speed. And what may be grammatically correct, at one point in time or a word like unique will lose its fine definition over time. I think art is largely the same way, and they’re both art, but I think the idea of what’s best, better, highest quality, most intellectually, you legitimate, is something that will constantly change.
00:45:41:32 – 00:46:18:16
Agent Palmer
Well, I think one of the things that one of the arguments about highly reproducible is gets to the intent of the art. I and I feel like this is where it’s one of those I’m writing this post because I want to review this book and tell the world that I really like this book, or I’m writing this post because, you know, I really like this, or I really like that, or I’m drawing this picture because it’s in me and I want to draw it, or I’m writing this poem because I have words I want to convey, and that’s all fine and dandy.
00:46:18:16 – 00:46:42:13
Agent Palmer
But if I want to draw this picture to sell a thousand copies of it, I think that that’s where people end up having an issue with how reproduce usable things are, because there can be, an intent to sell or sell out. I guess that the traditional world has a bit of a problem with, like I would too, though.
00:46:42:13 – 00:46:51:29
Agent Palmer
Like I have an issue with clickbait. I can’t imagine it would be any different for somebody who just was like, I’m going to take that picture because I can sell it.
00:46:51:34 – 00:47:27:46
Sean Hizny
Sure. And I don’t, you know, I certainly don’t mean to assert that I’m on the vanguard of anything here, but I think the thing that happens often, if you look through the history of art and media, is the means of production. Oftentimes become part of the value added to it. And I think that there if you look at, you know, reproducible art in its earlier iterations, if it was a, like a lithograph or silkscreen, it was something that still had an element of the artist involved, or at least oversight by them.
00:47:27:46 – 00:47:57:55
Sean Hizny
And I think you’ll find something like that will happen eventually with digital art, where it’ll be like, well, it’s, you know, produced and on a machine that was calibrated by the artist. It will it will be something like that. And the you know, I think the idea like with, with writing to writing, you know, words and in your blog, you know, can be copy and pasted anywhere, but it’s still your words and certainly that someone can change it around just enough to you know, call it their own.
00:47:57:55 – 00:48:07:57
Sean Hizny
But I think the value is in the the artist and not necessarily the, the exact product or, or the some facsimile thereof of.
00:48:08:01 – 00:48:45:59
Agent Palmer
Well, and I like that because that gives me hope in the way that, you know, photographers play with shutter speed, right? Like the tool becomes more of the art. Right? So now the, you know, the film is no longer just the blank canvas. It’s also another brush, right? I mean, I guess that’s a very rough metaphor, but it works, you know, and every keystroke or the coding or the calibrating of the machine becomes a part of the process through which the artist can express themselves.
00:48:46:03 – 00:49:10:33
Agent Palmer
So I like it, but it kind of leads me to like this one question I wanted to ask you that I feel like we have established you are qualified to answer, which is how does fine art compete? And I feel like it’s compete because we’re in an era where everything’s to win. But how does it compete with Netflix?
00:49:10:38 – 00:49:40:11
Agent Palmer
How does it compete with the new medias of, you know, moving pictures? You know, because nobody even really talks about music as art as much anymore. And we usually only hear about films that are arthouse films that, like, were made for 50 bucks or, on a handheld camera and released in two theaters. Like, how does that compete with the world of fine art?
00:49:40:16 – 00:50:10:47
Sean Hizny
Well, they’re just they’re just not the same thing. It’s just you’re you’re referencing, you know, there is something to really the things you consume on Netflix are created by cinematographers, set designers, computer graphic artists. They they’re assembled and built by artists. So in one way, you know, you’re really it’s really just moving the station a little bit. It’s moving it a certain way.
00:50:10:52 – 00:50:40:23
Sean Hizny
Now, if you’re asking like fine art paintings, how do they compete? Well, I think the way that they compete, if, you know, that’s the context of it, is that they’re really is nothing like seeing a multilayered oil painting in person right now. Eventually there will be high enough definition renditions in our screens will be so beautiful and so precise and pristine that it will feel like you’re standing right in front of the painting.
00:50:40:23 – 00:51:14:09
Sean Hizny
That will happen eventually, but the experience of seeing something in a museum or a gallery is currently a special experience, and it offers something that I think is not reproducible through a screen on you consume through Netflix, where you’re, you know, looking at a, you know, backlit screen that’s, you know, got these colors boosted to crazy levels and you don’t get the sense of scale of art either, or what it feels like to walk around a sculpture in.
00:51:14:10 – 00:51:47:51
Sean Hizny
Sure, there will be, you know, plenty of galleries that will create walkthroughs that will give you a sense of it, but it’s still not the same thing, at least yet. And, you know, it’s the difference between looking at something in three dimensions and looking at it on a two dimensional surface. And again, VR is coming around. I mean, hell, even Marina Abramovic, one of the biggest artists in the world, is just, on the cusp of selling one of her, you know, this unique experience that is going to be through virtual reality headsets.
00:51:48:06 – 00:52:14:34
Sean Hizny
So art will move around it, but also the more traditional, fine art experience is still something that’s special. And, you know, I found like when I was in my early teens and went to the Museum of Modern Art, and you before I had gone there, I certainly experienced a Van Gogh and a Dali and all these other artists on paper.
00:52:14:39 – 00:52:44:30
Sean Hizny
And it’s nothing like when you really see it, like the Dali, you know, persistence of memory is an entirely different experience in person, and we still aren’t there yet where you can experience it through a screen in the same way. I think that’s something that is why they they will still be museums for a long time, because it’s just, an experience and you’re also putting yourself into a space to experience it, and it takes a deliberate effort to do it.
00:52:44:35 – 00:53:14:16
Agent Palmer
Now you are talking about museums. So the listener that is listening to this episode right now has a free afternoon, and they can go to one place. Do they go to the local art museum or do they find a gallery like this is going to be their first foray into the world of fine art. Do you have a suggestion for one versus the other or it doesn’t matter?
00:53:14:21 – 00:53:57:40
Sean Hizny
No, no. It matters. And there’s a difference. I think going through a museum is a different experience. It is oftentimes the level of art is, you know, going to be higher. They typically have resources that are much higher. They have access to collections that, you know, a gallery wouldn’t have. Galleries are trying to sell the work, depending on where you are, if you’re in a place that you know, tends to attract tourists, they may find the level of art is meant for people looking for something that’s a little more on the decorative, and maybe not on the idea of something that challenges you, or is an experience in person.
00:53:57:45 – 00:54:30:29
Sean Hizny
It’s something that they might want you to think about taking and putting in your backpack or, you know, in your luggage, something that you might want for your house that will be on the more decorative side. You know, museums certainly have, less of a motivation to have the most popular things, but they also have them. I mean, there’s you can find all sorts of art critics that slam museums for putting out more of the big names rather than, you know, people that are considered doing more interesting things because attendance matters to museums, too.
00:54:30:34 – 00:54:58:04
Sean Hizny
But galleries, I think, will give you a much wider swath of art in your region. At the very least, I think it’s opens it up a little more to getting something that you haven’t seen before, you know, and you will certainly not know most of the artists you see there in a museum, you’re more likely to see an artist that seems you recognize that, maybe even a piece that, you know, is famous.
00:54:58:04 – 00:55:29:15
Sean Hizny
And I think galleries don’t have the same gatekeepers and curators, you know, involved. They they curated themselves and they’re the work they put on their walls is stuff that they, you know, believe in in some way. And museums have other issues, and they have big boards and they have people with their own biases and prejudices and they’re, you know, tends to be a watering down effect with some of that.
00:55:29:15 – 00:55:52:41
Sean Hizny
I mean, hell, even the Museum of Modern Art recently, they upped their diversity to have 7% of their hanging work as women. And that’s, you know, that’s something you, you know, you can certainly have your opinions about that. But, I mean, I think most people would see that as, a pretty limited scope. And these are some of the biggest, most important minds in art.
00:55:52:46 – 00:55:56:06
Sean Hizny
And they still have only gotten to 7% representation of women.
00:55:56:11 – 00:56:20:59
Agent Palmer
And I’ll say that the other thing that is probably unique to galleries on a everyday level is you’re more likely to run into an artist on display. It’s probably very rare you’re going to walk into a museum and the artist will be there. But if you walk into a gallery, there’s a very good chance an artist is there.
00:56:21:04 – 00:56:55:02
Agent Palmer
And listen, they all have stories and they’re all willing to talk to you, at least for the artists I’ve known and that I’ve met in galleries. They’re not always looking to make a sale. Like, I know there are probably people listening to this that are like, yeah, but if I talk to him or if I compliment him on the piece, like some of them just it’s kind of, I’m going to make this about podcasting because it makes it more poignant to the fact that the person who’s listening right now is listening to a podcast, but sometimes it’s just about feedback.
00:56:55:06 – 00:57:16:00
Agent Palmer
I can launch a Patreon. I can launch, you know, a support me button. But if you like the show, just tell me you like the show. If Sean was a shit guest, he wasn’t, by the way, at least in my opinion. But it just tell me, you know, like, let me know if I missed a question. Let me know.
00:57:16:00 – 00:57:31:28
Agent Palmer
Like, sometimes the feedback is just as important and people like hearing your thoughts and it can be your first time in a gallery. It doesn’t mean you can’t have an opinion on the painting that you’re looking at. No after the photograph.
00:57:31:29 – 00:57:57:27
Sean Hizny
And that’s the thing that I just bristle at, is the notion that fine art is for someone else or or is just this area that, you know, you just don’t tread because you’re just not equipped for it. And there certainly is a big elitism problem within contemporary fine art. But I think the days are numbered for for that kind of haughtiness.
00:57:57:27 – 00:58:20:10
Sean Hizny
And I think that the best way to start combating against it is just to get out there and put yourself out there. And if you find an artist that you really love, like at a gallery or a museum and they’re still alive, you’d be surprised how often artists are completely normal, nice, outgoing people that will respond to an email.
00:58:20:15 – 00:58:44:57
Sean Hizny
It’s remarkable how much you can find out by just, you know, trying and putting yourself out there a little bit. I when I was in the photography school, one of the assignments we had was to reach out to a famous photographer and ask them about a photograph they took and half the people didn’t even do it because they just didn’t want to try to reach out to, like, an Annie Leibovitz or, you know, a meyerowitz or whoever.
00:58:44:57 – 00:59:07:43
Sean Hizny
But I did it, and I reached out to one of my favorite national Geographic photographers, and he not only, you know, responded. He called back. And we had like a 45 minute conversation about his experience photographing a certain set that I had asked him about. And I think you’ll find yourself pleasantly surprised, putting yourself out there and approaching artists.
00:59:07:43 – 00:59:37:03
Sean Hizny
And again, there’s this this whole idea of artists being unattainable in another realm or in their own head in some way. And oftentimes the artists even highly successful, amazingly accomplished artists are incredibly well balanced, you know, have fully functional families. And, you know, none of them are going to write books about them at the end. Or if they are, they’re going to be loving memoirs and not, you know, running with scissors or something like that.
00:59:37:07 – 01:00:04:36
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I will say, you know, the other part of it is you’re not interrupting them. I feel like the one thing, at least for me, the one thing Hollywood gets right is you can be in a, in a zone, quote unquote, if I’m, you know, in the middle of writing a post that it’s flowing, don’t interrupt me. And if a painters, you know, in the flow of creating something, don’t interrupt them.
01:00:04:36 – 01:00:28:03
Agent Palmer
But guess what? If they’re standing at a gallery, you know, or they’re just walk in or you’re not going to interrupt them, they’re not going to snap at you because they’re just not they’re down to earth people and interrupting a process. Yes, absolutely. If there’s somebody at a blank canvas that’s putting brushes on, maybe take a moment.
01:00:28:10 – 01:00:52:46
Sean Hizny
Actually, in Santa Fe, usually over the summer, there’s a event called the Paint Out where most of the galleries have some artists from their gallery out painting in plain air, which means in plein air. And, and that’s an opportunity where you can see some of the painting happening. And trust me, I’ve, I’ve set up the paint outs in some galleries.
01:00:52:46 – 01:01:12:35
Sean Hizny
And you, they only put out artists that are going to be approachable and relatively friendly. And if you know, if you’re in a space where someone is, you know, working in some creative fashion, oftentimes if you’re in that space, they are approachable. If they did not want to be bothered, they would not be, you know, you would not be in there.
01:01:12:40 – 01:01:17:26
Sean Hizny
But that that’s not a you know, that’s not always the case. But I think it’s often the case.
01:01:17:26 – 01:01:46:15
Agent Palmer
So we’ve covered most of your story. We’ve covered fine art, being approachable. Look, I want to say something before the end of this, which is there is something to be said for owning a piece of art and knowing that you chose this piece out of all of the other ones, whether it was in the 50 galleries you walked into or the first one like you chose.
01:01:46:16 – 01:02:16:12
Agent Palmer
This is your piece is a personal choice. It is a selection, and you shouldn’t be intimidated. The only thing that should be intimidating about art is the price. And in most galleries you will find things, especially local galleries in non huge metropolitan areas like I live in a secondary metropolitan area, so like my galleries have art within 20 to $120.
01:02:16:23 – 01:02:38:31
Agent Palmer
Most of the time that’s that smaller eight by 12, 20 by 32. You know within that smaller range you’ll be able to walk out with a piece for less than a Benjamin. You don’t need to start out thinking about it as an investment. Think about it as something that will enrich your home and your life.
01:02:38:36 – 01:03:00:30
Sean Hizny
Yeah, I think that’s the right way to approach it. I, I just think it’s important not to feel intimidated, as you were saying. And I think it’s important to not feel limited that the artwork that you love may not be an oil on linen painting. It may not be, sculpture that, you know, is, from a foundry.
01:03:00:30 – 01:03:32:37
Sean Hizny
It may not be, you know, something that you’d consider necessarily, a piece that would be an investment. But there are, you know, if you love animation, animation sells its art and it’s yours and it’s a piece in a place in time. It’s that’s that value to you. It is the most important part of it. And it is something, you know, as I said at the beginning, I think that one of the greatest values of art is that people truly value it and pass it down, and it should mean something to you.
01:03:32:41 – 01:03:55:26
Sean Hizny
I mean, you can buy a live laugh love wood stencil anywhere, but I mean, a piece of original art is something that, you know, speaks not only to, you know, the artist, but also to a time and a place where that thing resonated with you. And that experience is in large part what art’s about. And I think it’s a valuable thing.
01:03:55:26 – 01:04:25:03
Sean Hizny
And I think it’s something that people should put themselves out and try to experience more and involve themselves with it in some capacity. And as you said, there’s there’s really not just a level of fine art. There’s lots of layers. And I think it’s something that you should really, really do or buy.
01:04:25:08 – 01:04:43:45
Agent Palmer
It can sound like I turned and did a 180 at the end there, because Sean and I line up so well in our own minds on why art is important and getting into collecting it and appreciating it. But that’s the way it was all along. I just got to have some fun playing devil’s advocate, because I didn’t want the entire episode to be an echo chamber.
01:04:43:50 – 01:05:09:03
Agent Palmer
Fine art is important, just like music and moving pictures are important. And while Sean’s podcast is more about pop culture than anything else, the question that starts moving the needle what’s moving you is a relevant question. Not for others to ask you, but for you to ask you. Especially when it comes to art. Any kind of art. Find the thing that moves you and go after it.
01:05:09:08 – 01:05:29:27
Agent Palmer
Can’t afford an original? Get a print. There are plenty of ways to appreciate, experience, and collect the things that move you. This is greater than art in terms of what its validity is. This could go for anything, really, but what’s most important is that you have some connection to it. And what we say at the end is probably the most important thing.
01:05:29:27 – 01:05:52:59
Agent Palmer
And thus I’ll reiterate, fine art is not for the über rich to appreciate. Sure, they can afford to collect pieces that most other people can’t, but the appreciation isn’t guarded by a price or surrounded by a wall of exclusion. Art is all around us, and affordability is only important as far as collecting original pieces, getting prints, or just being somewhere and taking in the sights.
01:05:53:11 – 01:06:15:42
Agent Palmer
That’s literally why we call things priceless. Because while there may be a required or requested donation to get into a local museum, or while you may feel obligated to buy something from your local gallery, even if it’s just a cup of coffee, you’re not priced out of going in and getting the experience of looking at the pieces hanging on the walls or in the display cases.
01:06:15:47 – 01:06:36:30
Agent Palmer
So do you have a favorite local gallery or museum? Have we inspired you to go out and find one? Do you already have a collection hanging on your walls? Tweet or email the show and let me know! Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files Episode eight. As a reminder, all links are available in the show. Notes. And now for some official business.
01:06:36:35 – 01:06:59:33
Agent Palmer
The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. Let me know what you think. You can tweet the podcast at The Palmer Files, myself at Agent Palmer, and you can reach this week’s guest, Sean at SJ, his NE. That’s SJ h Isee NY and you can tweet his show at MTN pod.
01:06:59:33 – 01:07:21:05
Agent Palmer
That’s MTN pod. The show email is the Palmer files at gmail.com. And don’t forget the Moving the Needle podcast where you can listen to Sean exactly where you are listening to this episode right now, and you can see what else I’ve got going on at Agent palmer.com. You can also hear more of me in the meantime on our liner notes.
01:07:21:05 – 01:08:11:11
Agent Palmer
A musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and my new gig as co-host of the podcast digest with Dan Lizette.
01:08:11:16 – 01:08:15:01
Agent Palmer
All right. Sean, so, do you have one final question for me?
01:08:15:06 – 01:08:17:57
Sean Hizny
Sure. Who is your favorite artist?
01:08:18:02 – 01:08:18:25
Agent Palmer
Wow.
01:08:18:38 – 01:08:31:53
Sean Hizny
Well, favorite isn’t the fair way of putting it. Who is your favorite now? Who is an artist that has resonated with you deeply? Because favorite is like your favorite movie, and that can change based on the time of day.
01:08:32:02 – 01:09:01:22
Agent Palmer
I will say that, I think it’s my collection of animation cells and, animation sketches that’s kind of there with it. And that’s Ralph Bakshi, because not only do I enjoy the pieces, but I enjoy the story and the collection of everything else that went along with it. Plus, it’s not art in a singular. It’s art in a web.
01:09:01:33 – 01:09:37:16
Agent Palmer
So from, you know, I’ll take one of Bakshi seminal films, Wizards. And in Wizards, there are these still history that they will shoot to and pan around. And most of those histories were illustrated by Mike plug. And Mike Plug is somebody whose art popped up on me later in life when I’ve been a magic player playing Magic The Gathering since.
01:09:37:16 – 01:10:05:15
Agent Palmer
Basically, it maybe two years into its start. It started in 93, I started in 95, and I don’t know, I kind of just on a whim, googled Mike plug and it came up that he did art for magic. And I’ve always appreciated the art in magic cards. And I knew some of the original artists, but like, it never occurred to me that like, there would be an overlap.
01:10:05:20 – 01:10:24:45
Agent Palmer
And for the next, I want to say, after I did this Google search was a couple of years ago. Not many, but a couple of years ago I basically went down a rabbit hole of like, all right, well, I’m just going to do a search and I’m going to collect every Mike plug card art, because even at the most expensive that it wasn’t, it didn’t appear to be much.
01:10:24:45 – 01:10:45:37
Agent Palmer
And the collecting is almost as fun. Is that the research? So I did that. And then I found out that Ian Miller, who did some of the backgrounds on Wizards, also did some magic cards. So I went down and I collected a bunch of those, like it just became a thing. But Bakshi was like the central artist to everything.
01:10:45:42 – 01:11:06:42
Agent Palmer
And then, a few years ago, when he did Last Days of Coney Island and, you know, I was watching him kind of get back into animation because they were kind of showing a lot of the behind the scenes and the making of it was a completely different style for him. But he’s changed, you know, he retired and went to the desert.
01:11:06:44 – 01:11:21:00
Agent Palmer
ALP, I, you and I can appreciate that change in in so many different ways now that like, I feel like Ralph Bakshi would probably be like the one artist who’s who’s my favorite.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).