Episode 173 features the return of one of my best friends, Jason Zapata, who’s back because he’s been trying to get this particular episode recorded for at least a few years.
We’re talking spies! Bond, Palmer, Bourne, Westen, Hunt, and more. Who’s the best at infiltration, or combat, or spycraft, all that and much much more…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Other Links
Name of the Wind is simply magnificent modern fantasy
I Got Stung and Not in the Good Way
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:05 – 00:00:22:28
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com. Name of the wind is simply magnificent modern fantasy. Mrs. Agent Palmer got stung, but not in a good way. And have you listened to any of Jason Peelings music yet? Because what are you waiting for? This is The Palmer Files episode 173. With the return of one of my best friends, Jason Zapata, who’s back because he’s been trying to get this particular episode recorded for at least a few years.
00:00:22:35 – 00:00:35:15
Agent Palmer
We’re talking spies, bond, Palmer, born, Weston Hunt, and more. Who’s the best at infiltration or combat or spycraft? All that and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:00:35:20 – 00:00:39:36
Jason Zapata
We’re doing it live. And it would do it alive.
00:00:39:40 – 00:00:44:03
Agent Palmer
Every villain should have their own podcast.
00:00:44:08 – 00:00:51:10
Jason Zapata
You’re putting up for a real low in the list. Dude, I don’t know why you’re doing so much hate.
00:00:51:14 – 00:00:55:39
Agent Palmer
God, why didn’t I put Jackie Chan on this list?
00:00:55:44 – 00:01:01:19
Jason Zapata
He shambles out of the car, and he still keeps going.
00:01:01:24 – 00:01:06:03
Jason Zapata
You know, it’s upsetting that this conversation doesn’t happen more often.
00:01:06:08 – 00:01:10:04
Agent Palmer
That’s where their bread is buttered.
00:01:10:09 – 00:01:14:38
Jason Zapata
For something you’re so reluctant to do. I think this is, of all.
00:01:14:42 – 00:01:35:09
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 173rd episode is the return of my good friend Jason Zapata. He’s been trying to get this episode recorded for years, and after we recorded his private questionnaire episode 163, we decided since we still had everything set up to just do it.
00:01:35:14 – 00:01:52:43
Agent Palmer
The premise was always spy v spy v spy the how and why. Well, Zapata really took the lead on that. It’s a fun discussion and we don’t get too far into the weeds, though we do dip our toe into semantics a bit. So who is the best spy? Will we come to a consensus among the two of us that’s coming up?
00:01:52:46 – 00:02:11:01
Agent Palmer
But before we get there, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterward, you can find all related ways to contact Jason and myself in the show notes. You can see all of Jason’s stuff at Jason zapata.com. He’s finally active on social media, at least for the moment. It’s Instagram, so give him a follow at Jason Z poetry.
00:02:11:10 – 00:02:26:33
Agent Palmer
Don’t forget you can see all of my ratings and ratings on Agent palmer.com. And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:26:38 – 00:02:27:15
Agent Palmer
All right.
00:02:27:19 – 00:02:41:11
Jason Zapata
Are we live? Q suspenseful music.
00:02:41:16 – 00:02:43:30
Agent Palmer
You’ve been you’ve been trying to get this one on.
00:02:43:38 – 00:02:47:59
Jason Zapata
Oh, this has been a fan project of mine for a while now. I’m so excited this is happening.
00:02:48:06 – 00:02:53:29
Agent Palmer
Not I am not nearly prepared enough, but I also feel like there is never a chance I was ever going.
00:02:53:29 – 00:02:57:27
Jason Zapata
To be unless we. We just do this. We’re doing it live, damn it. We’re do it.
00:02:57:27 – 00:03:12:24
Agent Palmer
Alive. Okay, so let’s see. Spy v spy v spy v spy right now. Yeah. The. Can I just ask right now? I know what my list I think is, but your top five spies.
00:03:12:24 – 00:03:15:02
Jason Zapata
Top five? I had to say. Okay, it.
00:03:15:02 – 00:03:17:42
Agent Palmer
Says they no order. No one. Okay. You just top five.
00:03:17:44 – 00:03:19:00
Jason Zapata
You got have James Bond.
00:03:19:05 – 00:03:19:28
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:03:19:37 – 00:03:34:01
Jason Zapata
You got to have Jason Bourne. You have to have Ethan Hunt, Michael Westen, and he’s not, it’s a very loose term, and it’s kind of almost like my wild card. Tongue in cheek. Yeah, and I say, MacGyver.
00:03:34:06 – 00:03:56:25
Agent Palmer
MacGyver, I don’t know how I feel about that one, but I can give you mine. Yeah, bond definitely is on mine. I feel like he’s probably on most, Of course I’m going with Palmer. The anti bond, because why not? Westen is also on my list. It’s really hard. I know the, you know, people are gonna be.
00:03:56:26 – 00:04:14:23
Agent Palmer
Well, TV’s a little bit different, but there’s just something about Michael Westen, the burn spy. There’s something about, Yeah, there’s just something about it. And then. So I’ve done this before. A long time ago, when I was on Dark Angels and Pretty Freaks, I did, a list.
00:04:14:28 – 00:04:16:43
Jason Zapata
And, it was a spy list.
00:04:16:48 – 00:04:36:16
Agent Palmer
It was my top five spies, and I don’t remember who was on the list. I think I’m going to come close. I’m going to at least go four for five, if not five for five. And I know I had an honorable mention and I don’t remember who that was. So like, it’s just like, oh, I don’t know. There is a part of me that I almost don’t want to say it, but I have to like Archer.
00:04:36:21 – 00:04:38:30
Jason Zapata
No, you can’t. So we’re not.
00:04:38:34 – 00:04:40:27
Agent Palmer
So, so so not including so.
00:04:40:27 – 00:04:41:59
Jason Zapata
Much, guys. Oh, you’re so serious.
00:04:41:59 – 00:04:49:04
Agent Palmer
All right. I am somewhat serious. So then, Bond, Palmer, Weston, I think I go Fury.
00:04:49:09 – 00:04:50:50
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:04:50:55 – 00:05:22:10
Agent Palmer
I think Fury was on my original list, too. And then, Oh, boy. Five is. I mean, MacGyver is interesting. I don’t think he’s there. I would put Bourne above hunt. I feel like I’m missing somebody. I know we had talked about this a while ago. As far as, like, you know, not one offs. Right? Like, these are, these are all franchise or like, season long guys.
00:05:22:10 – 00:05:29:09
Agent Palmer
So then I guess maybe I go with, Kingsman is a bit to comedy as well.
00:05:29:09 – 00:05:37:35
Jason Zapata
I think people trying to make the, the case for John Wick, but I just, I use IBM as an assassin. He’s just he’s not. He’s not? No. Yeah.
00:05:37:40 – 00:05:48:47
Agent Palmer
So I guess I’ll. Because I need a fifth, to make this work. I think I’ll go with Jason Bourne. I like him a little bit better than I like hunt.
00:05:48:47 – 00:05:50:30
Jason Zapata
I believe we watched the series together.
00:05:50:35 – 00:05:54:56
Agent Palmer
We did? Yeah, we did. So we never really figured out how we were doing this.
00:05:55:05 – 00:05:57:06
Jason Zapata
I have categories, okay, I have cats.
00:05:57:07 – 00:05:59:54
Agent Palmer
Okay. All right. So what. Give me the first category.
00:05:59:54 – 00:06:02:47
Jason Zapata
The first category that I have is infiltration.
00:06:02:54 – 00:06:35:56
Agent Palmer
Infiltration. Well I mean I feel like I know who wins easy as Michael Westen. For me, Michael Westen found a way in South Florida to get into any kind of area he wanted to, regardless of, how many accents he needed to do or facial hair or mannerisms, even because he, he played a dumb guy when he needed, like, a dumb swamp guy.
00:06:35:56 – 00:06:38:00
Agent Palmer
Really. Well, if he really needed to.
00:06:38:00 – 00:07:06:26
Jason Zapata
I think that his. Yes, I give him credit for that. But most of the either gangs, facilities or pretty, they were in high tech or high stakes for the most part, this is more like kind of local flora and stuff, so I do I appreciate the talent, but I don’t think it’s on the scale of like an Ethan Hunt where he’s like, he’s, he’s, in a Russian, a Russian embassy or he’s, you know, trying to enter like a, completely locked down power.
00:07:06:28 – 00:07:09:22
Agent Palmer
Okay. That’s fine. Yeah. However. Yeah. However.
00:07:09:22 – 00:07:10:30
Jason Zapata
No. Yeah, that’s where I was.
00:07:10:38 – 00:07:12:33
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Michael Westen, we’re tracking this.
00:07:12:33 – 00:07:12:53
Jason Zapata
Figure it out.
00:07:12:55 – 00:07:47:35
Agent Palmer
Maybe did it with less backup. Often with no communication. We’re not talking about a fancy mask. We’re talking about a mustache. We’re not talking about an earpiece. We’re talking about maybe some hand signals or a cough. With Fiona up there with a, you know, sniper rifle maybe catching that, you know something’s up. So I, I feel like alone it’s Westen because even bond bond never infiltrated.
00:07:47:35 – 00:07:48:29
Agent Palmer
He just broke in.
00:07:48:29 – 00:07:51:43
Jason Zapata
No he hates he’s definitely infiltrated places.
00:07:51:43 – 00:07:57:52
Agent Palmer
He’s infiltrating places. But it was also like, you know, I’m probably going to get caught, and then I’m going to be suave and get myself out of this.
00:07:57:59 – 00:08:03:52
Jason Zapata
He. Okay, well, here’s the thing, right? That’s part that’s part of it. So he you you’re.
00:08:03:57 – 00:08:05:23
Agent Palmer
You got to be able to get out alive.
00:08:05:23 – 00:08:20:18
Jason Zapata
Exactly to. And he’s that’s that’s definitely a talent to bond has I do agree with you that Ethan Hunt does take a hit on the fact that it’s a team, and he relies on his team where it’s not really a cell operation, which kind of gives a little, credit to Jason Bourne.
00:08:20:23 – 00:08:22:35
Agent Palmer
You know, I did a lot of that stuff on his own.
00:08:22:35 – 00:08:24:14
Jason Zapata
Natural talent, him going in.
00:08:24:14 – 00:08:29:27
Agent Palmer
Solo westerns, kind of a little bit in the middle. He had two backup guys, not really a team. Usually. It was a.
00:08:29:31 – 00:08:30:46
Jason Zapata
Tandem. Yeah.
00:08:30:47 – 00:08:45:22
Agent Palmer
Yeah, Sam, but usually it wasn’t the both of them, unless it was a big job. But usually he was one. Yeah, usually he had one backup, which is okay, fair enough. But I mean, I can give you that, MacGyver. Also, you know, it’s kind of like Weston, like.
00:08:45:26 – 00:08:46:46
Jason Zapata
Very much in that dimension. Yeah.
00:08:46:48 – 00:08:50:16
Agent Palmer
He had a team. No, not a great deal like that.
00:08:50:19 – 00:09:11:23
Jason Zapata
Pete was like, basically the guy who gave him missions, right? So the guy was using on his own, is he? He was usually sent on behalf of the Phoenix Foundation to go in and rescue someone or, you know, get information or to sabotage some kind of terrorist weapon, like, that’s his whole thing. So it was very much ingenuity was like his whole thing was in disguise, which.
00:09:11:23 – 00:09:12:51
Agent Palmer
By the way, was also he.
00:09:12:53 – 00:09:14:54
Jason Zapata
Had a fucking mullet. You can’t really rocket.
00:09:14:59 – 00:09:23:27
Agent Palmer
But that’s also what Weston did, too. I mean, that kind of like, give me a paperclip. Another thing, whatever the. But I don’t know what.
00:09:23:29 – 00:09:41:20
Jason Zapata
The escape part of the infiltration. MacGyver was the man when it came to that. There are so many times he was in a ridiculous situation where the dude had a paper clip. So duct tape and a shoelace, and he got out of that shit, so I. That’s why I do feel that he kind of has his place on there.
00:09:41:25 – 00:09:56:00
Jason Zapata
But in terms of like, how do you rank it? It’s tough because like you said, I do think Ethan Hunt takes a hit. But in terms of agility, in terms of disguise, you know, I, I do think you can’t completely eliminate that either. No.
00:09:56:00 – 00:10:07:21
Agent Palmer
But he still drops below Weston. I think for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. His west it again. I look at the guys who did it without tech. The thing about the Mission Impossible franchise, I.
00:10:07:25 – 00:10:22:30
Jason Zapata
Will say this. I will say this Wesson has athleticism, but I don’t get I don’t think it’s on par with Ethan Hunt or with Jason Bourne. I do think he ekes out MacGyver. I do think, oh, but it turns out, agility wise, to get in places. Get out of places. I would.
00:10:22:30 – 00:10:44:37
Agent Palmer
But, you know, in there. Here’s the difference. Yeah, I would take Weston in a fight because unlike the other two, he gets beat up a lot like he might of this list. By the way, Michael Weston might be the Rocky. He’s the guy who can take a punch more than anyone else on this list and still get up, because there were situations where we’ve and it’s TV.
00:10:44:37 – 00:10:58:04
Agent Palmer
So we’ve seen more situations with Michael Weston than others, but there were situations where he needed to get beat up because he wasn’t going to give away how strong he was, and so he would still come back. And I feel like some of those other guys we’re talking.
00:10:58:04 – 00:11:17:15
Jason Zapata
About not so quick now, so quick on that, because Rogue Nation, I think that’s the one Henry Cavill plays, that the rogue American CIA operative Hammond and Ethan Hunt throw hands, bro. There is a serious knock down, drag out battle at the end of the film, and I think we’re kind of sleeping on that. Ethan Hunt can take some of yours, too.
00:11:17:21 – 00:11:21:50
Agent Palmer
I know, but I’m just saying, I think I think I think Weston still the top for me.
00:11:22:03 – 00:11:37:40
Jason Zapata
That’s just I think we had to figure out a way to kind of give points on the individual categories, too. So I think Weston is really up there. I think for me, out of all of them so far, I would say it the it’s it’s it’s my question. I’ll say this at the bottom.
00:11:37:52 – 00:12:13:33
Agent Palmer
The man just walked into places like his only infiltration style. I guess I could include, Bernard Sampson too, but he’s a similar in the vein of like, he would walk into a place, and because he was so plain and not as flashy, he just kind of blended into the background, which you can only do in so many places, but in the places he needed to be just blending in because he was so nonspecific, you know, that that’s that’s the only thing he had.
00:12:13:38 – 00:12:23:45
Agent Palmer
So probably at the bottom of the list. Yeah. Well, maybe a but maybe slightly above Nick Fury, who always looked the same and really didn’t do much. He did this guys one.
00:12:23:45 – 00:12:44:32
Jason Zapata
By one knock against Nick Fury. He’s a spymaster and not a spy, I feel like. So yes, you spy is kind of included in it. Yeah, but his primary thing is that he’s the spy. He’s the he’s the spider in the middle of the web. So I it’s kind of tough for, for me to kind of I don’t know how to really engage him.
00:12:44:32 – 00:12:50:48
Jason Zapata
Okay. So that’s kind of a weird thing. All right. I, I would love if we got to see more.
00:12:50:53 – 00:13:09:57
Agent Palmer
It is in the comics. In the comics, he’s very much a spy. Yes. It’s the movies where he’s more of a spy master. But I just feel like even in the comics, he didn’t. He. He was just like. He was just. I’m Nick Fury walking in a room, like. It’s just. She’s like. Like Mr. Tea, right? Like just okay.
00:13:10:02 – 00:13:23:08
Jason Zapata
Is in the comics. Only that, like later versions of Nick Fury, he has, like, human duplicates, like he’s so crazy and paranoid that he has duplicates of himself that are like, like cyborgs going in and posing as him. Yes. So.
00:13:23:13 – 00:13:27:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah. But and it said, you know, Fury is probably the bottom in Palmer. And then.
00:13:27:52 – 00:13:34:48
Jason Zapata
Yeah. So I think I we’re more or less in line. We’re kind of like we’re not sure who kind of is out Ethan Hunt versus Michael.
00:13:34:53 – 00:13:37:06
Agent Palmer
But they’re they’re both 1 in 1 area.
00:13:37:15 – 00:13:49:10
Jason Zapata
Yeah. They’re on the top tier. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes I’m fine is kind of like b c tier. You know I do think we got we were kind of sleeping on bond a bit I, I do think he should kind of be a bit higher up on that.
00:13:49:10 – 00:13:58:01
Agent Palmer
I mean it depends on the way you consider infiltration. He could always get in and he can always get out. But then again, all of these guys for the most part could get in and out.
00:13:58:01 – 00:14:04:20
Jason Zapata
Now it’s going to be part of its own category. Right. But I think what kind of dovetails into infiltration, I know if we want to use this as a segue.
00:14:04:20 – 00:14:05:50
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. What’s next? Yeah, I.
00:14:05:51 – 00:14:17:01
Jason Zapata
Like savoir faire. The ability to use language, talk yourself in and out of things, get information. You know, I do think that that’s that’s a big key part of being a spy as well.
00:14:17:06 – 00:14:40:56
Agent Palmer
All right. So I have to I keep I slept too much on Bernard Sampson. So I got maybe I’ll kick maybe I’ll kick Bourne out and put Sampson on my list. But I think the thing about Bernard Sampson is specifically that he had a network, maybe better than anyone else on this list. He had a full on network from 20 years in the in the game.
00:14:41:05 – 00:15:11:07
Agent Palmer
Right. Palmer. You know, he could get information and he and he had great spycraft, maybe the best spycraft. But I feel like Westen and Bond go to the top of my list for that savoir faire in terms of letting the other guy just talk, just get. Once you’re in, you don’t have to ask a question. You don’t even have to say anything.
00:15:11:12 – 00:15:34:07
Agent Palmer
Maybe one comments all you need, and then they’re just going to talk and they’re just going to go. And that’s just going to be what I need. And you know what? Villains love to talk about themselves. Every villain should have their own podcast that never sees the light of day. So the good guy can’t know his plan. But if I was a villain right now, I’d be telling you exactly what I’m doing.
00:15:34:12 – 00:15:59:54
Jason Zapata
For I think one of the things that that really pushes James Bond up on this list is he’s so suave and so debonair that villains are forced to feel like they have to overcompensate, and then they start to monologue and they start to reveal all their plans and, and he gains information that way. So I do think that the ability to make people people feel inadequate.
00:16:00:08 – 00:16:02:29
Jason Zapata
Well, but that is a power in of itself.
00:16:02:29 – 00:16:25:29
Agent Palmer
That’s the other reason I go to a West End, because Weston used to play down and play dumb, and then they all felt like they needed to bring him up to speed because he wasn’t going to put it together. And so it’s legitimately the exact it’s it’s it gets the information in the exact opposite way of James Bond.
00:16:25:33 – 00:16:49:47
Agent Palmer
I’m going to play dumb, and they’re going to be like this little runt of the litter over here. Doesn’t figure out what I’m doing. So I’m just going to kid, come here, just stand over there. And when that guy comes in, you know, do the thing right? And so they spelled it out for him in the same way, not for overcompensating, but just trying to oversimplify everything just so this little guy may understand, right.
00:16:49:52 – 00:17:09:48
Agent Palmer
I don’t know the rest. I’ll be honest. I mean, the rest is the rest feels a lot less the, the, the rest almost don’t feel like they belong is on the list. And I say that because Hunt and Bourne felt more like hackers when it came to information gathering.
00:17:09:53 – 00:17:38:54
Jason Zapata
Well, the thing about Ethan Hunt, right? He would pose as someone else. So it’s it’s some time. Yeah. Sometimes now when he had to kind of, like, be himself and try to gain information. And there weren’t many instances of that happening. So it’s difficult to kind of put him on, a proper scale for savoir faire. I think he could talk with other agencies when necessary, like in the other films, when he was working with the American CIA agents.
00:17:38:54 – 00:17:44:20
Jason Zapata
There is some back and forth with that, setting them up, by the way. Yeah.
00:17:44:24 – 00:17:48:55
Agent Palmer
Of everything. Okay. CIA, NSA.
00:17:49:00 – 00:17:50:35
Jason Zapata
The Max six.
00:17:50:40 – 00:18:13:57
Agent Palmer
No, specifically the American agency’s always inept. Like, there’s a reason that, like, Mission Impossible is a separate entity in that, like, we just don’t. We just don’t talk to the CIA like they’re so full of leaks or the NSA doesn’t like. We’ll we’ll ask them a question, but we’re not going to tell them really why. We need to know.
00:18:13:57 – 00:18:22:28
Agent Palmer
We’re going to make up another reason for it. I just look and I go, all right, well, Bond and Weston go to the top for me.
00:18:22:32 – 00:18:30:58
Jason Zapata
I that’s I have that, too. MacGyver is frustrating because he doesn’t really talk Intel based.
00:18:31:02 – 00:18:48:38
Agent Palmer
Focused guy. He’s almost like, you know, he’s he feels like a mission specialist. Where that, like, by then it’s like, all right, well, we got the guy who can drive him there and drop him off. He’ll be fine once he’s there. And he’s already been debriefed. He doesn’t need much more.
00:18:48:49 – 00:19:12:59
Jason Zapata
Now, I do think that he’s able to if it comes to, you know, working with people and getting resources or convincing someone to do something, he’s capable. But I think when it comes to just, you know, again, using Savvy Warfare as a tool, a spy train, whether that be convincing a woman to sleep with you, convincing, a major villain to reveal his plot.
00:19:13:04 – 00:19:16:36
Jason Zapata
I just again, my man with the mole, it just comes up. It’s all right.
00:19:16:36 – 00:19:17:28
Agent Palmer
That’s not going to happen.
00:19:17:30 – 00:19:37:21
Jason Zapata
Yeah. So he goes at the bottom. I think that’s that’s fair to say. He’s at the bottom. And then Jason Bourne, I he does speak multiple languages. He kind of pretends to be someone help on act like something he even simple as being a manager for a store or something and calling in just to figure out someone’s present or to get a little login or cause a security threat.
00:19:37:25 – 00:19:46:20
Jason Zapata
So I do think he’s B or C tier when it comes to that. He has the ability to use that. But again, that’s not one of his strengths. No.
00:19:46:20 – 00:20:12:31
Agent Palmer
So no. And I again Samsung was all about his network. So and sometimes the network lets you down. And that’s just the nature of Cold War politics. Like you don’t know who’s turned or you know, you don’t know what’s fake and what’s not. But there is an amount of reliance on human intelligence that maybe more or less was just that’s how he got it.
00:20:12:33 – 00:20:32:58
Agent Palmer
He didn’t need very rarely got it from the source. So I don’t know where you put him because he got the information, but never from the source. Yeah. And I, I know I said that again, but it’s just I’m just reiterating like, I guess that means he days he’s at the bottom because this what you’re talking about specifically.
00:20:32:58 – 00:20:52:46
Agent Palmer
He’s getting it from the source. Yeah. So that Samson’s getting it from other human intelligence in his network is great. But that then take that’s not that’s not that’s not. Yeah. That’s that’s that it is organic but it’s not the same. So. All right. So what what’s the next category.
00:20:52:52 – 00:21:13:06
Jason Zapata
So I don’t know if this should be part of one overall or we split them up into two okay. So yeah if you’re just going to have a combat that could include marksmanship and hand-to-hand, we can split it up. And then we can either have margin chip in hand in hand as separate. Like what do you think is the best approach for this?
00:21:13:11 – 00:21:32:55
Agent Palmer
I don’t I mean, I feel like marksmanship is just, really simple bonds. Okay. Bourne’s the best hunts. Pretty good Westerns. Okay. Like, he was pretty good, but it was Fiona. Fiona was the marksman. You know,
00:21:32:59 – 00:21:35:32
Jason Zapata
She was I r a, if I remember correctly. Yeah, yeah.
00:21:35:34 – 00:21:41:37
Agent Palmer
So I think that’s it. But moving past that to hand to hand.
00:21:41:50 – 00:21:59:58
Jason Zapata
Now again, I feel macgyver’s towards the bottom. Now, the only thing I would say in his fury. Yeah, what I was saying in his defense would be he could improvise weapons and he tried to avoid killing people. That’s Macgyver’s whole thing. But he could create distractions.
00:22:00:05 – 00:22:09:12
Agent Palmer
Why didn’t I put Jackie Chan on this list like he’s been a spy by. Yeah, but most of the time he’s a policeman. So, like, I don’t know a detective.
00:22:09:17 – 00:22:14:12
Jason Zapata
But you don’t think Jackie’s saying it’s like these do. These are spy me. They come near my front first in front of.
00:22:14:12 – 00:22:35:50
Agent Palmer
Them, I. Okay, so yeah, MacGyver and probably Fury at the bottom with Samsung. Same thing. He’s not gonna be a scrapper. Even Palmer. Not so much. I mean, you’re looking at bond, Bourne, Hunt and Weston. These are your top, for that matter, how you get it? Yeah, these are the guys that you know that’s that’s where their bread is buttered.
00:22:35:52 – 00:22:42:37
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I think there’s a split where all the other guys are more intelligence based, not do.
00:22:42:46 – 00:22:54:02
Jason Zapata
I feel like we’re missing category. So we have physical combat. We have infiltration. We have savoir faire with like utilizing of your speech and your knowledge. What other thing are we not measuring these guys properly on?
00:22:54:02 – 00:23:21:31
Agent Palmer
Well, I think that’s where I just split it. Like there are the straight intelligence guys. This isn’t about combat. This is about just getting the information. Okay? And and and getting it reliably, but not directly. Because that was the that’s the thing where like a Palmer and a Samson and, you know, to a certain extent even Weston and Fury mainly Fury.
00:23:21:36 – 00:23:45:28
Agent Palmer
It was getting the information indirectly, but reliably. Right. And and then and then I think that in that regard. Yeah, I again I feel like I have to give hunt like an A because he’s getting it from his team specifically. He’s not he doesn’t have a network. He’s got a team which is very different than a network in the spy game.
00:23:45:33 – 00:24:10:40
Agent Palmer
And I mean that not not as a, like a derogatory thing because, look, we’re talking about, you know, Palmer’s usually on his own. Bourne’s usually on his own. Weston has Fiona and Sam, but usually one or the other. Sometimes neither. And bond is lucky if Felix is around, but most of the time he’s alone. But Ethan Hunt’s got a team.
00:24:10:40 – 00:24:19:03
Agent Palmer
Always has a team. So I almost like, give him, something slightly different just because he’s got more reliable.
00:24:19:07 – 00:24:30:46
Jason Zapata
He has? Yeah, he has more resources at his disposal. Right. Because what I missing provides him that. But you can say the same thing. For what, what what they do for bond as well. So it’s it’s.
00:24:30:46 – 00:24:42:10
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but you know what. Once Bond’s there, he’s on his own. Yes. Where versus Ethan Hunt usually has somebody in his ear or within his signal. Yeah.
00:24:42:15 – 00:24:43:20
Jason Zapata
Shot there so they.
00:24:43:20 – 00:24:52:22
Agent Palmer
Can they can still. So this is slightly different. But like as far as intelligence gathering just straight intelligence I don’t know. I mean it’s not clear.
00:24:52:23 – 00:24:52:43
Jason Zapata
It’s got to be.
00:24:52:43 – 00:24:57:19
Agent Palmer
A Tom Palmer Fury. Yeah. Fury might be at the top just because he. Yeah.
00:24:57:34 – 00:25:01:47
Jason Zapata
So spymaster. Yeah. They say that says something up.
00:25:01:47 – 00:25:29:31
Agent Palmer
And then Satan knew Samson was very good too. He was kind of like one under. And Sampson did it as a like maybe three tiers. If, if, if, if Fury is that like spymaster at the top, then for people who haven’t read any of the Bernard Sampson stuff, he’s more like he’s like four tiers under that. He’s like above junior spy, but he’s grizzled veteran who’s old, who solved everything, but not by the book.
00:25:29:31 – 00:25:58:17
Agent Palmer
So he’ll never get promoted. But he knows so much and he knows how to get around the system. That, in theory, is what Ethan Hunt doesn’t like. And Jason Bourne wants to tear down and bond feels hampered by like, you know, like Bernard Sampson’s basically like, well, I’m too good. They won’t fire me, but they’re not going to promote me, and I might be a scapegoat one day, but I know how to work around this system.
00:25:58:17 – 00:25:59:15
Agent Palmer
Within the system.
00:25:59:15 – 00:26:05:29
Jason Zapata
Spies who have been burned, they’ve all at one point, I’m pretty sure have been all of them have been burned.
00:26:05:39 – 00:26:07:58
Agent Palmer
So Palmer has been burned? Yeah.
00:26:08:03 – 00:26:09:54
Jason Zapata
Jason Bourne.
00:26:09:58 – 00:26:11:33
Agent Palmer
Weston, obviously.
00:26:11:34 – 00:26:33:57
Jason Zapata
Weston Fury, Ethan Haas, they have all been burned. All of them. Which is. Which is so interesting. So that, I guess you would say who got burned? The worst would be would be the the one of the one of the more interesting questions. I feel Bourne’s at the top of that one. I can turns out having to overcome like a crazy situation because they he had that whole the entire CIA trying to.
00:26:33:59 – 00:26:35:20
Agent Palmer
Kill him and he had the.
00:26:35:25 – 00:26:36:27
Jason Zapata
Like. Yeah, the.
00:26:36:28 – 00:26:41:59
Agent Palmer
Difference is like like Weston wakes up in the pilot and he’s burned. Yeah. And he knows.
00:26:41:59 – 00:26:48:11
Jason Zapata
It. But but they’re not trying to he’s burned, but they’re not trying to kill him. Well, he’s just out of the game.
00:26:48:11 – 00:26:57:39
Agent Palmer
They’re not trying to kill him. He’s out of the game. But he also is basically in jail in Miami. It’s like we’re going to keep an eye on you, but you can’t go like, house arrest.
00:26:57:39 – 00:26:58:30
Jason Zapata
Essentially. Yeah.
00:26:58:33 – 00:26:59:42
Agent Palmer
City arrest, city arrest.
00:26:59:42 – 00:27:00:25
Jason Zapata
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:00:26 – 00:27:18:30
Agent Palmer
So I but I feel like it goes Bourne Weston and then everybody else because everybody else was, was burnt for like a movie or a movie and a half. Yeah. Whereas like Bourne is never unburnt and western for like.
00:27:18:34 – 00:27:20:24
Jason Zapata
You know, the series. The series.
00:27:20:33 – 00:27:22:23
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Like so it’s like they’re.
00:27:22:23 – 00:27:43:47
Jason Zapata
All right now those two are definitely at the top. Oh they have absolutely. Yeah. Yeah I know we didn’t get super granular about it, but I do feel like we kind of for for people, fans of the fisticuffs, fans of the action, we didn’t really get granular granular enough with, the combat, the mealy fist office. So in fisticuffs, what are we thinking?
00:27:43:52 – 00:27:47:28
Agent Palmer
Palmer and Fury and Samson are at the bottom again.
00:27:47:28 – 00:27:49:14
Jason Zapata
I know I put MacGyver on the list.
00:27:49:16 – 00:28:06:12
Agent Palmer
Macgyver’s at the bottom, too, so. I mean, it sucks. You want to. I wanted to hire, but. But there’s an asterisk to what I’m about to say next year. Bond. Non. Daniel Craig Bond is not at the top of this list in any capacity.
00:28:06:17 – 00:28:08:25
Jason Zapata
He can hold his own kind of.
00:28:08:25 – 00:28:11:14
Agent Palmer
He can hold his own. But Roger Moore you’re.
00:28:11:14 – 00:28:13:38
Jason Zapata
Going to shit on the judo chop bro.
00:28:13:43 – 00:28:14:26
Agent Palmer
Come on.
00:28:14:28 – 00:28:18:31
Jason Zapata
You’re got you. Don’t you know what’s happening right now? Yeah, because it’s.
00:28:18:36 – 00:28:24:31
Agent Palmer
It’s right out of the original story. It’s right. It’s Captain Kirk.
00:28:24:36 – 00:28:28:50
Jason Zapata
But you had to. Judo chop has longevity. You can’t you can’t take that away from it.
00:28:28:55 – 00:28:57:41
Agent Palmer
I’m just saying. Yeah. But no, like the, the the the more Bourne influenced Bond and Hunt that’s going to be at the top of the list. And, you know, I think Westerns up there, I think the four of them in a four way, it’s really just going to be, you know, if I’m being honest, looking at like bond, Bourne, Hunt and Weston, you know, who like, I like Ethan Hunt on this guy’s, you know, there’s an answer.
00:28:57:43 – 00:29:05:14
Agent Palmer
There’s a straight answer to this and you’re not going to like it. Okay. But whoever gets to their toy first wins. That’s okay. That’s you can.
00:29:05:14 – 00:29:08:24
Jason Zapata
Take take it. Okay. They’re in a pit fight. You know.
00:29:08:28 – 00:29:09:10
Agent Palmer
I don’t care.
00:29:09:15 – 00:29:12:28
Jason Zapata
No weapons. They’re just in a pit there and they’re fine.
00:29:12:33 – 00:29:18:18
Agent Palmer
You know what? Yeah, I’ve watched too many of these. I think they always have a weapon. There’s always a weapon.
00:29:18:18 – 00:29:30:43
Jason Zapata
Okay, well, what I’m going to say is this. I like Ethan Hunt for its agility and his ability. I do think he has, like, a good fighting ability. I don’t think the durability is quite there. He did. Like I said before.
00:29:30:52 – 00:29:31:11
Agent Palmer
I think.
00:29:31:11 – 00:29:34:35
Jason Zapata
He hung in there when he fought against, Henry Cavill. And, yeah.
00:29:34:35 – 00:29:42:35
Agent Palmer
I think I think, I think in the end it comes down. He could take some abuse. I still think in the end it comes down to Bourne in Weston, I really do. I think Bourne in Weston know your top.
00:29:42:35 – 00:29:44:12
Jason Zapata
Tier could take two Bourne Gates.
00:29:44:24 – 00:29:45:38
Agent Palmer
I know, but I think.
00:29:45:44 – 00:29:51:37
Jason Zapata
Feel bad for all three movies I did citing though was it just.
00:29:51:41 – 00:29:55:59
Agent Palmer
I’m just saying I think I think it’s Bourne in Weston at the end and probably Bourne on top.
00:29:56:04 – 00:30:11:17
Jason Zapata
But no one. No one. We need the third part, movie. When he escapes from that long police crash like, really completely messed up. He’s been shot. He’s in a huge car accident. He, Casey, shambles out of the car, and he still keeps going. I’m just.
00:30:11:31 – 00:30:19:06
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I’m not disagreeing, but I still think Bourne outlasts Weston and the rest kind of just fall by the wayside as a result.
00:30:19:11 – 00:30:21:09
Jason Zapata
Until Daniel Craig took a beating too, though.
00:30:21:11 – 00:30:42:53
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but you have to. He’s. But bond is one of those things where like, we have to keep in mind that there were other bonds. Like, you can’t just say Daniel Craig like bond as a character. When we talk about infiltration, it’s the same thing. They all had suave. So that like, everything we’ve talked about.
00:30:43:05 – 00:30:51:11
Jason Zapata
So you’re you’re viewing it, you’re using as a plus an icon. You’re saying, okay, if we’re looking at James Bond in totality, yes. Savoir faire is always top marks.
00:30:51:18 – 00:30:52:23
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s.
00:30:52:25 – 00:30:56:39
Jason Zapata
That’s it. Okay. So I guess you’re right because I.
00:30:56:44 – 00:30:59:36
Agent Palmer
I love my boy Connery. But like, they get.
00:30:59:36 – 00:31:01:06
Jason Zapata
Their hands. Iconic dude.
00:31:01:06 – 00:31:25:03
Agent Palmer
He had a little bit but not in it. But here’s the thing. When we talk about Bourne and Weston and if you just, you know, if we do the whole, like, drop the worst and best fight, Ethan Hunt’s out. Unfortunately. Because when you take the best fight away and the worst, by the way, he’s kind of middling. But Bourne in Weston can not only take a punch, they can wait and wait.
00:31:25:03 – 00:31:26:39
Jason Zapata
They’ll go hamburger and wait.
00:31:26:43 – 00:31:37:43
Agent Palmer
And then eventually they’ll just wear, they’ll Rocky, they’ll wear you out, and then they’re going to be on top standing at the end. So I feel like those two are legitimately head and shoulders above the rest.
00:31:37:43 – 00:31:38:50
Jason Zapata
Yeah, I agree.
00:31:38:55 – 00:31:43:27
Agent Palmer
I agree it’s only the Daniel Craig bond that probably gets there.
00:31:43:27 – 00:31:44:46
Jason Zapata
I can’t. Yeah I think you’re sleeping. Bro.
00:31:44:46 – 00:31:45:59
Agent Palmer
I’m not sleeping on that.
00:31:46:00 – 00:31:54:18
Jason Zapata
But if you’re rocking our boy, you’re putting up for a real low in the list. Dude, I don’t know why. You know, you’re you’re doing so much hate towards bronze. No, I don’t get it. I just.
00:31:54:18 – 00:32:17:23
Agent Palmer
I just, I just I think he spent a lot of time trying to avoid that kind of stuff. Brosnan’s bond specifically spent a lot of time running away from the fight. Like, that’s like, here’s the thing. There were always some car chases in bond, but Brosnan took it to a whole nother. Like, I’m thinking like, the, Was it Die Another Day with the motorcycle?
00:32:17:28 – 00:32:19:10
Jason Zapata
Oh. What’s that like? They just.
00:32:19:21 – 00:32:34:40
Agent Palmer
Spent so much time trying to avoid the fight that it’s just like. All right, well, I know he can take it, because obviously. What was it? The third Brosnan where, like, he ends up with the beard and he’s been like brutalized for like months now. I know, but that’s.
00:32:34:40 – 00:32:36:42
Jason Zapata
In the die. But I’m left in the die.
00:32:36:42 – 00:32:47:12
Agent Palmer
I, I still think it like head and shoulders. It’s Weston and Bourne like easily there at the tops for physical fisticuffs.
00:32:47:13 – 00:33:10:43
Jason Zapata
Yeah, yeah. So if we’re looking at our list. Right. So so far we have categories for hand-to-hand. We have categories for marksmanship. We have categories for savoir faire. We have categories for infiltration like at certain games just keep coming up. So I think in terms of the whole combat, marksmanship and hand-to-hand, our boys, Michael Westen and Bourne are towards the top of that.
00:33:10:43 – 00:33:35:02
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Savoir faire. Michael Westen, does exceed Bourne by quite a bit. Yes. And then in terms of infiltration, it’s kind of a mixed airborne kind of towards the bottom of that list. So I think if we’re being honest about this, you know, overall, I do think Michael Weston is probably the strongest spy on the list here.
00:33:35:07 – 00:33:37:49
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Unless you got another category I don’t know about.
00:33:37:49 – 00:33:52:43
Jason Zapata
No, I think in terms of the categories I wanted to talk about, you know, again, maybe we have did we pull this. We put it out to the gentle listeners out there to see if there’s something that we overlooked or we missed. I think this is a fairly,
00:33:52:48 – 00:34:11:38
Agent Palmer
As well as well as well-rounded goes, I think. Yeah, Weston’s probably at the top, right. Because he does everything. Maybe not. He may not be the best in everything, but he’s a tier. He’s A or B tier an almost he’s.
00:34:11:43 – 00:34:14:39
Jason Zapata
Yes. Yeah. No. Consistent level. Yeah.
00:34:14:44 – 00:34:15:56
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No definitely.
00:34:15:56 – 00:34:16:24
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:34:16:29 – 00:34:21:59
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s it’s it’s not an open and shut case but it kind of is at this point I.
00:34:21:59 – 00:34:25:38
Jason Zapata
Will look so in terms like overall spycraft right.
00:34:25:42 – 00:34:30:44
Agent Palmer
Spy craft that’s a different thing. We didn’t talk about spycraft. Well we got really.
00:34:30:44 – 00:34:36:07
Jason Zapata
Oh I guess in terms of the character we could do that. Yeah. But in terms of the characters we have so far. Yes.
00:34:36:12 – 00:34:40:20
Agent Palmer
Yeah. But Mike, here’s the thing. Michael Weston is not going to drop when we talk about spy craft.
00:34:40:20 – 00:34:41:19
Jason Zapata
Yeah. No, he even when.
00:34:41:19 – 00:34:59:22
Agent Palmer
Everybody else even even like I look I know Palmer spycraft is pretty good. Because he does a lot of things behind the scenes. And Sampson with his human intelligence is the same way. And you could say the same thing about MacGyver as well. But there’s a lot of MacGyver, Ian Weston as far as some of that stuff.
00:34:59:22 – 00:34:59:52
Jason Zapata
Exactly.
00:34:59:52 – 00:35:22:30
Agent Palmer
And, you know, spy craft wise, I love bond. But he he suffers from needing all of Q’s gadgets. Like. And it’s a little bit less spy craft than just cool gadget thing, right. So it it goes, you know, that spycraft thing? Yeah. I mean, it’s still there.
00:35:22:30 – 00:35:43:23
Jason Zapata
Multiple languages. That’s a big part of it too. Being well traveled, understanding different organizations, passports, multiple identities, safe houses. You know, all of these are facets, spycraft. So I think when you break it down that way, even.
00:35:43:23 – 00:35:53:33
Agent Palmer
With, even with, like, yeah, dead drops and understanding who your friends still may be and. Yeah, yeah. All that. So Weston still if he’s not here I.
00:35:53:38 – 00:36:13:47
Jason Zapata
Wasn’t there I, I but again I think his stakes are a little bit lower than the others. When, when when you look at it, I think when you’re looking at major international institutions, crime syndicates like you got to look at like the caliber of villain the Bond or Ethan Hunt is going up against is is higher than Westerns.
00:36:13:48 – 00:36:15:47
Agent Palmer
Not really, because Westerns just going up.
00:36:15:56 – 00:36:17:39
Jason Zapata
Well, still, life or death.
00:36:17:44 – 00:36:25:01
Agent Palmer
Well, I was going to say he’s alive, but he’s going up against the system, whereas the others are working within the system. Usually times, usually at times.
00:36:25:01 – 00:36:28:41
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Jason Bourne never.
00:36:28:46 – 00:36:30:47
Agent Palmer
There. Yeah. He’s just he’s just trying to blow.
00:36:30:52 – 00:36:33:57
Jason Zapata
Jason Voorhees instead of suffer. I feel like dude.
00:36:34:02 – 00:36:43:32
Agent Palmer
But no, that’s true. That’s that’s that’s his lot in life. He’s supposed to suffer. That’s that’s it. Yeah, I mean, I, I wish I could give bond more.
00:36:43:32 – 00:36:45:45
Jason Zapata
Merits, I do too. I feel like.
00:36:45:50 – 00:37:05:49
Agent Palmer
It’s just when you start comparing. Yeah. And contrasting spycraft and it’s like, yeah, but you just like none of the other guys. Like I remember there’s a couple episodes of Burn Notice where like, Michael Westen has a great belt because like, it will, you know.
00:37:05:54 – 00:37:07:37
Jason Zapata
Take it, turn to get it,
00:37:07:42 – 00:37:15:49
Agent Palmer
Or it’ll, it’ll help him like, you know, zipline down something. But it’s the actual belt. No, it’s a.
00:37:15:49 – 00:37:18:43
Jason Zapata
It’s a thing you put around your arm to block knife strike, but it’s.
00:37:18:43 – 00:37:30:48
Agent Palmer
Not actually like a tension rod in the belt buckle, like, you know what I mean? And so, like, there’s this amount of, like, practicality that we lose with James Bond. Yeah.
00:37:30:52 – 00:37:36:15
Jason Zapata
That I do think again, Craig’s version went a long way towards addressing so.
00:37:36:15 – 00:37:38:24
Agent Palmer
Some of that. But at the same time.
00:37:38:24 – 00:37:46:07
Jason Zapata
Deep back like I think the especially in the last couple of movies, they kind of were like, okay, we’re going to go back to crazy gadgets and you know, laser.
00:37:46:07 – 00:38:00:13
Agent Palmer
Watches even still, like there’s an amount of when it was toned down where it was still like, yes, but when all of these guys got in a car, James Bond still had the cool, like, I want to talk about wheels for a second.
00:38:00:17 – 00:38:04:42
Jason Zapata
We didn’t talk about vehicles, like being able to like, estate keys vehicles.
00:38:04:42 – 00:38:09:10
Agent Palmer
Well, we Guyver goes, a little bit up because he can fly.
00:38:09:12 – 00:38:11:55
Jason Zapata
He can fly anything. He can hotwire anything.
00:38:12:06 – 00:38:26:08
Agent Palmer
Yeah, well, Westen can hotwire anything as well. In fact, I think Weston got around South Beach. Never in his own car. He’s always like, I’m on the job. I. If somebody follows me, it’s not going to be in my car.
00:38:26:08 – 00:38:45:26
Jason Zapata
Now, here’s the thing. Unfortunately, and again, I think our boy MacGyver gets points and then gets immediately taken away because I think that while he can utilize many different vehicles, maybe some more than our other, spies, unfortunately, we haven’t seen instances where he’s had to escape. He’s never been in an actual. I could be wrong. I’m trying to.
00:38:45:31 – 00:38:53:36
Jason Zapata
I’m really trying to reclaim memory here, but I don’t remember a MacGyver episode where it was a prolonged chase and he had to lose someone.
00:38:53:36 – 00:38:59:36
Agent Palmer
Well, that’s that’s different. So that would be actual, like, driving skill, at which point piloting.
00:38:59:36 – 00:39:01:44
Jason Zapata
So overall like vehicle usage.
00:39:01:44 – 00:39:04:14
Agent Palmer
I mean, I will say, you know, because.
00:39:04:17 – 00:39:05:18
Jason Zapata
I think bond flies.
00:39:05:18 – 00:39:06:05
Agent Palmer
Bond flies.
00:39:06:14 – 00:39:09:04
Jason Zapata
Okay. He does flying or has he ever flown anything.
00:39:09:04 – 00:39:10:41
Agent Palmer
Yeah he’s fallen some planes.
00:39:10:43 – 00:39:12:12
Jason Zapata
Helicopter I think.
00:39:12:17 – 00:39:19:19
Agent Palmer
He’s done. No he’s done I mean he’s done the plane thing. He’s done the whole the plane’s going down and I need to save myself.
00:39:19:19 – 00:39:19:54
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:39:20:01 – 00:39:41:59
Agent Palmer
Okay, okay. And he’s done that a few times. That’s not a one off. He’s. So he can fly. He can fly, well enough not to. He can fly well enough that his crash landing is survivable. Yeah. Whereas, you know, MacGyver technically had the proficiency to take off and land. Yeah. I mean, we don’t really explore.
00:39:42:01 – 00:39:47:53
Agent Palmer
We in theory, we know Bourne has the is has been taught how to fly.
00:39:47:53 – 00:39:48:47
Jason Zapata
We haven’t seen it, but.
00:39:48:47 – 00:39:51:16
Agent Palmer
We’ve not seen it. Yeah. We know from like.
00:39:51:16 – 00:40:00:23
Jason Zapata
Oh, we know he’s a devil behind the wheel though. Yes. Yeah. Not the most I think every movie has some type of long for a long vehicle bond.
00:40:00:23 – 00:40:02:31
Agent Palmer
It depends on the movie. Yeah, it’s not.
00:40:02:31 – 00:40:04:44
Jason Zapata
Always a banger. So he’s had some. Well he’s.
00:40:04:44 – 00:40:06:12
Agent Palmer
Had some really good car chases.
00:40:06:12 – 00:40:08:09
Jason Zapata
And motorcycle chases.
00:40:08:14 – 00:40:14:57
Agent Palmer
Yeah. But again, you almost have to asterisk that because, you know, towards the end he had some.
00:40:14:57 – 00:40:16:32
Jason Zapata
Good ones too. I remember there was.
00:40:16:35 – 00:40:17:10
Agent Palmer
A.
00:40:17:15 – 00:40:19:01
Jason Zapata
Joke scene with a vehicle or more.
00:40:19:01 – 00:40:29:56
Agent Palmer
I don’t disagree, but I’m just saying every time he did it in his car, he could push a button and get an oil slick. And you know, you know, I mean, like, there was there’s an amount of.
00:40:29:56 – 00:40:31:57
Jason Zapata
Bad guys in hood.
00:40:32:02 – 00:40:46:21
Agent Palmer
Listen, amount of gadgetry. Yeah. Within all of that stuff for bond specifically where he could easily when he needed to, all he had to do was get to a straight road and put down the slick, you know, like there were just.
00:40:46:36 – 00:40:53:28
Jason Zapata
I think Ethan Hunt real high in that, too, in terms of, vehicle, it’s motorcycles, cars, boats.
00:40:53:33 – 00:40:55:39
Agent Palmer
And bond did some boat stuff.
00:40:55:39 – 00:40:56:26
Jason Zapata
Yeah, some boats.
00:40:56:31 – 00:41:00:43
Agent Palmer
Did some boat stuff. Yeah, yeah. And Weston did some boat stuff to Florida.
00:41:00:43 – 00:41:04:46
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Fuck yeah bro. Yeah I would, I would imagine. Yeah.
00:41:04:51 – 00:41:14:24
Agent Palmer
Yeah I, I don’t know I also wonder like so of everybody. Yeah. If we discount bond as automatically asked here who had the best time.
00:41:14:39 – 00:41:15:38
Jason Zapata
Anyone can be just automatically.
00:41:15:39 – 00:41:16:34
Agent Palmer
Asked who had the best.
00:41:16:34 – 00:41:17:37
Jason Zapata
Toys. That’s toy.
00:41:17:37 – 00:41:21:56
Agent Palmer
That’s why I mean Bond’s automatically asked to. Yeah he’s got you in his back pocket.
00:41:22:01 – 00:41:22:22
Jason Zapata
Next.
00:41:22:23 – 00:41:23:40
Agent Palmer
Year. But other than that, who.
00:41:23:40 – 00:41:27:00
Jason Zapata
Is Hans out there too? Bro? There’s the MI six year.
00:41:27:01 – 00:41:28:55
Agent Palmer
Yeah, the master.
00:41:29:00 – 00:41:30:59
Jason Zapata
Everything that’s I don’t know. That’s pretty.
00:41:30:59 – 00:41:32:31
Agent Palmer
He might be asked to that I.
00:41:32:31 – 00:41:36:36
Jason Zapata
Think he’s got to be asked for tools and resources that he’s got to be up there to. Man.
00:41:36:40 – 00:41:39:06
Agent Palmer
That’s easy. I don’t know that every I think everybody else is.
00:41:39:06 – 00:41:43:50
Jason Zapata
Because I was up there too. And he never needs them. Well, McGee has the Phoenix.
00:41:43:50 – 00:41:48:36
Agent Palmer
Foundation and Weston, MacGyver and Weston never needed that stuff because they always came.
00:41:48:36 – 00:41:49:37
Jason Zapata
Prepared. Genuity.
00:41:49:50 – 00:41:52:07
Agent Palmer
Yeah. The engineering, like just.
00:41:52:19 – 00:42:01:44
Jason Zapata
The ability to test, you know, but do it their own, you know, skills get through the problem. Yeah. Bourne. Unfortunately never.
00:42:01:49 – 00:42:03:52
Agent Palmer
You.
00:42:03:57 – 00:42:05:27
Jason Zapata
Twice.
00:42:05:32 – 00:42:07:22
Agent Palmer
You never got to.
00:42:07:27 – 00:42:08:33
Jason Zapata
Get any toys.
00:42:08:37 – 00:42:09:37
Agent Palmer
Like. Oh, look.
00:42:09:42 – 00:42:23:40
Jason Zapata
Here’s the thing. He did have passports in safe houses and money stashed, but there was no gear. There was no fancy knives or gun, fingerprint guns or grapple hooks from your watch or anything like that. Yeah. Any that.
00:42:23:42 – 00:42:25:32
Agent Palmer
No lasers? No.
00:42:25:37 – 00:42:29:22
Jason Zapata
Nothing. Nothing for boy.
00:42:29:27 – 00:42:44:33
Agent Palmer
I still think that, like I we’ve discovered. Yeah. That, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know, we probably should have, figured out who we were expecting it to be at the beginning. And if we were surprised at the end, I did.
00:42:44:39 – 00:42:49:10
Jason Zapata
I like doing this organically. I did, I say I talking things through, and I would.
00:42:49:10 – 00:42:54:52
Agent Palmer
Never have expected Weston to be the top dog in. One of the.
00:42:54:52 – 00:42:58:04
Jason Zapata
Things I do think in general, like you said, I think overall.
00:42:58:04 – 00:42:58:53
Agent Palmer
I think he is.
00:42:58:53 – 00:43:13:51
Jason Zapata
I do think in a one on, I think if you are to put them both in a country like, say you put these both in, they had to find each other and take each other out. I love my boy Weston, but I think if it’s a if it’s a straight head to head. Yeah, I think foreign. Get some.
00:43:13:56 – 00:43:34:12
Agent Palmer
Maybe. But here’s the thing. If you’re taking, And look, we know I don’t remember the history, so I know Weston has experience in other countries. Yeah. So if you took them both to a neutral country where neither of them has support, I don’t know that. It’s as cut and dry as you think it is because they.
00:43:34:17 – 00:43:52:19
Jason Zapata
I know that cut and dry. I do think it’s gonna be super close. Like they’re both fully capable of integrating and then do skullduggery getting getting at each other like I do think that that’s that’s definitely. Yeah, it will be one hell of a thing to watch. I mean there would probably be and the we don’t.
00:43:52:19 – 00:44:10:24
Agent Palmer
Do I mean I’ll say this, we don’t do this kind of like show. Here’s an example right there are, you know, Knight Rider crossed over with some, like Airwolf and A-Team stuff, right. Like, but what we’re talking about here, these crossovers will never happen.
00:44:10:29 – 00:44:10:58
Jason Zapata
They should.
00:44:11:10 – 00:44:12:37
Agent Palmer
They will never happen.
00:44:12:37 – 00:44:18:04
Jason Zapata
I know, you know, it’s upsets me that this conversation doesn’t happen more often. Like this is this is a cool.
00:44:18:04 – 00:44:48:34
Agent Palmer
But this is the cop show. Okay? So I always bring this up. Yeah, but this is a conversation that happens within certain circles. And you and I are a part of those circles. Right? This goes back to 1999, 1998. I’m in the gaming shop on Main Street. You hadn’t gotten into magic yet, which is sad, because I think you would have had a fun time there, and we would just try and cast a live action Lord of the rings, right?
00:44:48:34 – 00:45:11:41
Agent Palmer
And I always talk about not being able to go back in time because I don’t remember anybody. We chose, but it’s a it’s one of the conversations I remember, but there were other conversations like it. And I think that that’s just of the circle and the, the, the geek nature of. Yeah, we like talking about this stuff. And we could probably do something similar with Trek and Wars in a way.
00:45:11:41 – 00:45:26:26
Agent Palmer
Right. But, on a whole, though, I still think on the categories you brought in, we talked about. Yeah, West End on a point system would somehow be I had and I would never have assumed.
00:45:26:38 – 00:45:32:29
Jason Zapata
I didn’t use. I always thought he was going to be up there. I think he’d be at the one spot. No, but I think if we were both.
00:45:32:29 – 00:45:33:01
Agent Palmer
But based on.
00:45:33:03 – 00:45:35:34
Jason Zapata
Point, this point, yes, he’s they’re.
00:45:35:34 – 00:45:37:31
Agent Palmer
Both of us, number one. Yeah.
00:45:37:36 – 00:45:43:39
Jason Zapata
And that’s what a list includes. Ethan Hunt, James Bond, Jason Bourne, you my boy?
00:45:43:39 – 00:45:53:38
Agent Palmer
Palmer’s just at the bottom. I just I love him, but he’s not like he is good at what he does. Because he’s the everyman. Because he blends in. Because he’s not.
00:45:53:38 – 00:46:03:43
Jason Zapata
Well. I think that’s the thing. I think that that that we kind of discounted that the ability to just blend in. When we looked at infiltration, I think we were we kind of slipped on in terms like a side of that.
00:46:03:46 – 00:46:12:08
Agent Palmer
But it’s, it’s but it’s only so good like that. That’s only good in certain situations. In other situations you need to get where you need in terms.
00:46:12:11 – 00:46:18:46
Jason Zapata
Of like again, going to the escape part of infiltration, the ability to blend in, to get out of a situation.
00:46:18:46 – 00:46:20:20
Agent Palmer
That’s true. But that’s, that’s a.
00:46:20:25 – 00:46:21:18
Jason Zapata
That’s a that’s important.
00:46:21:18 – 00:46:42:44
Agent Palmer
There’s also a part of me that thinks like, this is where Weston and Bourne must have taken classes when they were training to be what they were before they got burned. In, like, architecture, they never make a wrong turn. They always have a feeling of, like, where the exit might be, and it usually is there. Now, sometimes they’re wrong.
00:46:42:46 – 00:46:43:36
Agent Palmer
Well, usually.
00:46:43:36 – 00:46:55:01
Jason Zapata
I wonder this. That’s just kismet, because they’re both CIA now. Now we we we we’re poking fun at our at our at the Americans because they lack savoir faire. Is that the difference where.
00:46:55:15 – 00:46:56:18
Agent Palmer
The only two.
00:46:56:18 – 00:47:03:44
Jason Zapata
Brits are two more charismatic and are Americans are just a bit more focused on, okay, where is the entrance? Where is the exit?
00:47:03:46 – 00:47:14:26
Agent Palmer
What does it say when the only two CIA agents we can mention that might have it are burned? Okay, clearly they don’t know how to use the things they have.
00:47:14:26 – 00:47:25:24
Jason Zapata
Their talent Hahahahahahahaha. But, no. Like I said, for something you’re so reluctant to do, I think this is, of all I. I had a lot of fun with.
00:47:25:28 – 00:47:32:11
Agent Palmer
I just wasn’t I was I, I think it was good. We did it on the spot. I was never going to be prepared enough for this conversation.
00:47:32:14 – 00:47:39:03
Jason Zapata
No, it’s just something you you just you just roll, man.
00:47:39:07 – 00:48:06:21
Agent Palmer
You. Well, this ended up being pretty structured because of Zapata. This is similar to a lot of conversations we just have, although most are less structured. We do eventually cover a lot of bases, or we tend in a way, never to be seen again. The point is, they happen. I understand that I am in the minority, but when I hear that people don’t talk enough with other people, I wonder what they’re afraid of.
00:48:06:26 – 00:48:38:06
Agent Palmer
This episode, this conversation about spies. It was fun, but it didn’t move the world. It probably didn’t even break new ground, as I know a whole podcast with hundreds of episodes devoted to just this topic. But we talk, we communicate, we engage. And if you’re not doing that, if you’re one of those people who doesn’t like the phone and only communicates via text, who spends more time looking at a screen when hanging out with people, just realize communication is a very important part of who and what we are as humans.
00:48:38:10 – 00:49:01:53
Agent Palmer
Communication and specifically conversation. It doesn’t have to break new ground or change someone’s mind, or even be anything more than telling each other stories, but the connection with your fellow human, most likely a friend, but it could be a stranger will be greater for it. You can use that text machine in your pocket to arrange a real life coffee with someone.
00:49:01:58 – 00:49:24:48
Agent Palmer
Or you could even just use the phone function on your smart phone and call someone. Engage in the conversation. You’ll enjoy it. And before I go, who’s on your spies list? Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 173. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion.
00:49:25:01 – 00:49:42:35
Agent Palmer
You can find all related ways to contact Jason or myself in the show notes. You can see all of Jason’s stuff at Jason to Polycom. He’s finally active on the social media Instagram at least for the moment. So give him a follow at Jason Jason’s poetry and tell him what you thought of his list. Or at least send commiserations for his boy MacGyver.
00:49:42:40 – 00:50:04:18
Agent Palmer
The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email and comments can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent Palmer, dot com.
00:50:04:23 – 00:50:36:57
Agent Palmer
You.
00:50:37:02 – 00:50:39:40
Agent Palmer
All right, Mr. Zapata, do you have one final question for me?
00:50:39:40 – 00:50:59:54
Jason Zapata
I do, I think if I’m reading the tea leaves here, I think that what they’re looking to do at the, Mission Impossible series is set up either Hayley Atwell or someone else to kind of be a female lead, given the fact that we just spent the past, what, almost an hour? You know, talking about, male.
00:50:59:54 – 00:51:08:25
Jason Zapata
Do you think that we can get a female spy into this list and, you know, have her be able to compete with the guys?
00:51:08:30 – 00:51:19:56
Agent Palmer
So atomic blond, I think, you know, probably on par. And that’s, an easy one.
00:51:20:01 – 00:51:23:15
Jason Zapata
I think she does PR for a couple guys right off the bat.
00:51:23:15 – 00:51:24:02
Agent Palmer
Oh, she.
00:51:24:07 – 00:51:36:35
Jason Zapata
Look okay, I love dude. I feel like I feel like again, I if putting him on the list, I both gave him a service and a disservice. But I do think she definitely takes for our poor Canadian butt lad. To the woodshed. I’m trying.
00:51:36:35 – 00:52:09:41
Agent Palmer
To think. I think that, well, I mean, you know, Agent Carter, I mean, Hayley Atwell as Agent Carter could be, spy related. Although, we only have that one season or two seasons. So there’s no there’s not a lot to go on. But again, sadly, she could probably beat up 1 or 2 of the guys, you know, probably the same to the.
00:52:09:46 – 00:52:41:53
Agent Palmer
But I, I think that the problem ends up being that after even so, atomic Blond has two books. Well, one and a half books, because one is a prequel, and the movie Agent Carter’s got two things. It’s really that we don’t have a lot to go on. Like even Palmer’s got four movies, you know, Bourne’s got three with with one Bourne in particularly, like, we have so much to go on.
00:52:41:53 – 00:53:05:21
Agent Palmer
Yeah. As opposed to just one film. And that’s what makes it a little there’s no franchise. Yeah. I still think even if we go ahead and they do hand the baton off, I think you’re going to end up with similar Ethan Hunt asterisks in some of the categories. As far as there’s a team, there’s really cool gadgets because that’s going to maintain.
00:53:05:21 – 00:53:12:15
Agent Palmer
Right. Like yeah, when we talk about Atomic Blond you should have gone and Hurwitz for that entire film.
00:53:12:26 – 00:53:20:24
Jason Zapata
Now I do recall the one fight scene on the staircase. Yeah. And first to you as scrappy as hell, bro. So like.
00:53:20:37 – 00:53:26:09
Agent Palmer
No, I get it. But again. Yeah, again. You know, there’s a so I don’t know, it would be nice.
00:53:26:15 – 00:53:36:32
Jason Zapata
I think she’s ever going to overpower any of the top three. Like you know. No she’s not being bombed. She’s not being turned on. She’s not being fought like they’re getting they’re gonna eat her alive, dude.
00:53:36:37 – 00:53:38:23
Agent Palmer
Like, I don’t think she’s being watched in either. Yeah.
00:53:38:36 – 00:53:44:30
Jason Zapata
Or Western, so. Yeah. So but I think if again it’s all who you get to but she.
00:53:44:39 – 00:54:00:14
Agent Palmer
Yeah direct it I think you need you need more runway with the character than we’re getting with any single female lead. Like as we’re speaking, ballerina just came out and I haven’t watched it, but, like.
00:54:00:19 – 00:54:18:26
Jason Zapata
That’s a little bit more. This conversation screwed up already. We missed something that’s so important. What? I don’t know why we. We were so ignorant and we just didn’t think this through. There. Ready? Powerful. Beautiful female spies that we’re just not thinking about. Oh, Charlie’s Angels, bro. Come on.
00:54:18:31 – 00:54:19:52
Agent Palmer
Okay. But, you know.
00:54:19:59 – 00:54:21:45
Jason Zapata
It’s that that that joke. Joke.
00:54:21:46 – 00:54:29:16
Agent Palmer
No, no. But again, they’re a team. It’s the Ethan Hunt problem. They’re almost not not exclusively do I do I do.
00:54:29:16 – 00:54:34:45
Jason Zapata
Think you’re you’re you’re, even though it’s a team, right. The individual skills are still there.
00:54:34:45 – 00:54:54:03
Agent Palmer
But they’re also here’s the thing though, right? They’re all doing something different. One of them is the brute. One of them is the brains. One of them is the sharpshooter. You know, like, And so it’s, I don’t know, I we’re close, but I want to ask you. Yeah, a question.
00:54:54:03 – 00:54:55:42
Jason Zapata
To hell means.
00:54:55:47 – 00:55:02:14
Agent Palmer
You have one case, one thing you need done.
00:55:02:23 – 00:55:03:11
Jason Zapata
00:55:03:16 – 00:55:09:18
Agent Palmer
Who are you taking as you are going. Yeah. But you get a teammate.
00:55:09:22 – 00:55:10:34
Jason Zapata
A teammate.
00:55:10:38 – 00:55:24:17
Agent Palmer
A teammate. Which means if you pick Ethan Hunt you don’t get his team, you just get Ethan Hunt. So if you pick Michael Westen Sam and Fiona aren’t coming either. So if you are going into battle to do one thing.
00:55:24:21 – 00:55:32:32
Jason Zapata
Now see that’s the keyword, right? Because it’s it’s mission specific. So I’m just like, if you’re saying battle, that’s a keyword.
00:55:32:32 – 00:55:33:32
Agent Palmer
That I’m not saying.
00:55:33:32 – 00:55:42:27
Jason Zapata
But if I know I’m going to be in the thick of it, I’m doing I’m taking Jason Bourne because that motherfucker can throw hands, okay? He can shoot and he can get beat to ground B and still keep.
00:55:42:37 – 00:56:09:30
Agent Palmer
At this sight unseen. You don’t know if it will be infiltration, savoir faire, fighting, marksmanship. You don’t know. You just have to blind pick one of the spies to go in and depend, make you know, depend on for your life and support so you can go in as a duo. Who’s the one person you’re taking of everybody? We’ve mentioned?
00:56:09:35 – 00:56:14:53
Jason Zapata
It’s a tie between three. Like I’m trying to. Yeah, I’ll try to I try to narrow it down.
00:56:14:53 – 00:56:16:12
Agent Palmer
I try to talk me through this.
00:56:16:12 – 00:56:18:38
Jason Zapata
Okay. So again, just because you.
00:56:18:38 – 00:56:19:48
Agent Palmer
Don’t know, you don’t know.
00:56:19:50 – 00:56:21:01
Jason Zapata
You don’t know what you’re getting.
00:56:21:14 – 00:56:36:46
Agent Palmer
And I like to think of this as a video game where there’s a chance you won’t be in the thick of it. There’s a chance, if things go wrong, you will be in. Just know that like, anything’s possible. Depending on how well it goes and who you have at your side.
00:56:36:48 – 00:57:02:26
Jason Zapata
Yeah, so I can’t. You got two questions automatically. Top three. He just again he’s so solid and consistent across all round categories I do I again Ethan Hunt is up there for me. Just his ability to be sporadic, his athleticism, his ability to find decent marksman two he’s out there God this is hard, bro. Like.
00:57:02:31 – 00:57:04:13
Agent Palmer
Because it’s not hard for me.
00:57:04:17 – 00:57:22:50
Jason Zapata
I know you have your your mindset on things. I feel like Bond’s got to be up there. But again, I just that’s just because I like him, but just because, again, he’s so, like the ability to survive Lone Wolf through so much shit. Yeah, he got a pawn up there.
00:57:22:50 – 00:57:26:42
Agent Palmer
All right, so who’s picking pick one. Oh, fuck.
00:57:26:47 – 00:57:31:43
Jason Zapata
It’s tough, and I don’t know what the hell I’m getting into.
00:57:31:47 – 00:57:45:33
Agent Palmer
No, no, it’s like one of those old video game like, text video games. Like, if you if you answer wrong, you may end up down a hallway and have to fight your way out. But if you answer right, you may just have to sneak past the guard. You don’t know.
00:57:45:38 – 00:57:59:07
Jason Zapata
If it would be down to two. Okay, you’re right, I would rule one out. So again, it’s going to be the top two already. We’ve decided it’s going to be either Bourne or Weston. Okay. Between Weston in any situation I don’t know what I’m getting in.
00:57:59:08 – 00:58:09:48
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. There’s an unpredictability. Just like every other thing. Yeah.
00:58:09:53 – 00:58:10:49
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:10:49 – 00:58:13:47
Jason Zapata
I’m I’m I’m giving this full thought here.
00:58:13:52 – 00:58:15:50
Agent Palmer
If it helps, I know who I’m going with.
00:58:15:54 – 00:58:21:59
Jason Zapata
I. And are you going to go with Weston? No. You’re not going with Weston. Okay, I’ll put the brakes on mine. Like, who are you going with?
00:58:21:59 – 00:58:35:48
Agent Palmer
James Bond? Really? 100%. Okay, 100%. You know why I like Weston? I’ll probably live if I take Weston. Right. Bond’s got money and connections, and I’m going to live up to high life during this thing where Weston.
00:58:35:59 – 00:58:37:49
Jason Zapata
Could die, right? Like.
00:58:37:54 – 00:58:55:28
Agent Palmer
Like Michael Weston will probably be my best chance of success. Yeah, but he’s going to be, like, in order to do this, we need to rough it. And James Bond is going to be like, we’re going to walk into this hotel, we’re going to get tailored suits, and we’re going to just leave it there, and then we’re going to deal with the rest of the stuff.
00:58:55:28 – 00:59:04:24
Agent Palmer
And it’s like, you know what? If I gotta go and this is my one shot, I’m living at high. If I get shot, that’s fine. So I’m taking bond.
00:59:04:24 – 00:59:08:01
Jason Zapata
I to put a gun in my head. And I was forced to chose.
00:59:08:01 – 00:59:08:57
Agent Palmer
Between Weston and.
00:59:08:57 – 00:59:16:32
Jason Zapata
Board. I’m going to go up Bourne just because I think that he’s blown worth it for so long. So again, do being on your own and see.
00:59:16:32 – 00:59:38:52
Agent Palmer
If I and so and so immediately I will tell you based on your own logic, you made the wrong choice. Okay? And the reason I say that is you should choose Michael Weston, because Jason Bourne has been lone wolf for so long, I think he wouldn’t really look out for you. He was okay. Yeah, some of the time.
00:59:38:52 – 00:59:48:06
Agent Palmer
But he is such a lone wolf that I feel like almost all of Weston’s stuff was in the service of someone.
00:59:48:06 – 00:59:57:48
Jason Zapata
Else with you there, because in the first film, he’s basically trying to get and everyone figure out who he is and what’s going on. And the love interest, and I forget her name.
00:59:57:48 – 00:59:59:22
Agent Palmer
No, I know, I know, but I’m just.
00:59:59:24 – 01:00:00:53
Jason Zapata
Like, he keeps her alive.
01:00:00:55 – 01:00:03:45
Agent Palmer
But only for moment. But again.
01:00:03:50 – 01:00:04:15
Jason Zapata
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:04:15 – 01:00:13:47
Agent Palmer
Over the course of series and movies and stuff, I think Weston has done a better job of pulling people unprepared through situations.
01:00:13:52 – 01:00:17:34
Jason Zapata
Well, he that was his he was kind of very MacGyver in that he.
01:00:17:39 – 01:00:19:54
Agent Palmer
He was he could bring something out of you.
01:00:20:06 – 01:00:23:51
Jason Zapata
Yeah. So people would come to him when they have their problems and he would help them and.
01:00:23:53 – 01:00:37:15
Agent Palmer
But he would also let them do it and help them as well. So they both succeeded in a way. Yeah. But again, I’m taking bond because I want to live the high life. Whether it this when they’re losing.
01:00:37:18 – 01:00:40:02
Jason Zapata
Or lose, you guys, at least you’re going to have the time of your life.
01:00:40:07 – 01:00:40:47
Agent Palmer
100%.
01:00:40:49 – 01:00:41:12
Jason Zapata
I get it.