Episode 153 features my Cousin Sarah who’s here to talk about science, water, engineering, weather, the non-profit space, plus running, saying no, and much much more…
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NASCAR needs new gas in the tank beyond Dale Jr
Earl Weaver and the evolution of baseball take the field in The Last Manager
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
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–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:08 – 00:00:24:00
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com NASCAR needs new gas in the tank beyond Dale Jr. Earl Weaver in the evolution of baseball. Take the field in the last manager and I hope you enjoyed last episode as much as Chris and I did recording it. This is The Palmer Files episode 153 with my cousin Sarah, who’s here to talk about science, water engineering, weather, the nonprofit space plus running, saying no and much, much more.
00:00:24:02 – 00:00:56:05
Agent Palmer
Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:00:56:09 – 00:00:57:58
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files.
00:00:57:59 – 00:01:22:28
Agent Palmer
I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 153rd episode is my cousin Sarah. Sarah is an amazing environmental engineer who now has her own business, Sarah Diringer Consulting. But as you’ll soon discover, it all goes back to being fascinated by water in an early age. Sarah and I discussed thinking like an engineer engaging in the nonprofit sector, understanding that school isn’t the real world.
00:01:22:30 – 00:01:40:04
Agent Palmer
Plus, we do discuss water, the environment, climate, weather, and how it’s all an anxiety inducing ticking clock. All of this and a whole lot more is coming your way shortly. But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterward, you can find all related ways to contact Sarah and myself in the show notes.
00:01:40:14 – 00:01:59:08
Agent Palmer
You can learn even more about Sarah and her work at S Diringer consulting.com link in the show notes. Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:01:59:13 – 00:02:29:33
Agent Palmer
Sarah, you may be one of the few people I know who’s in environmental sciences that, like, kind of wanted to be in environmental sciences. So a little backstory. I went to a tiny liberal arts college that was mainly artists. A lot of culinary people there for a two year before they moved on to something, either a career in it and a lot of environmental studies people.
00:02:29:38 – 00:02:30:41
Agent Palmer
Hippies.
00:02:30:46 – 00:02:54:21
Agent Palmer
Hippies. Okay. And it you know, my I the campus had like hundreds of acres of, like, backwoods and stuff. So they did conservation stuff. They learn. But I those that I have stayed in touch with, none of them are in environmental sciences. It’s almost like all the artists I know, none of them are in art. Okay. It’s just so for me, you are the enigma.
00:02:54:21 – 00:03:07:51
Agent Palmer
Because, like, I don’t know anyone else who, like, wanted to be in it. Went to school for it and is in it. Was this always the case where we were? You were you were going to be in environmental sciences that was the track.
00:03:08:03 – 00:03:31:56
Sarah Diringer
I think it was. So when I was in, it was either seventh or eighth grade. My science teacher at the time, did, you know, like an after school thing you could come to, like, look at the creek behind the middle school. Okay. Which was clearly like a beautiful flowing creek, but not really. And, she brought, like, water quality testing kits and, like, you could go look at it.
00:03:31:57 – 00:03:53:31
Sarah Diringer
Whatever. And I was the only kid who showed up, but I was so gung ho, like, I thought this was the coolest thing. And so we, like, tested the water. And I think since then, I’ve always loved this idea that you can, like, look at nature and like, water looks clear or nature looks pristine. And then as you get further into it, you’re like, oh, there’s these chemicals here.
00:03:53:31 – 00:04:14:45
Sarah Diringer
You didn’t even know were there. And like it, it always felt really just fascinating to me. Okay. And so like since then, I think it’s actually been more that I like, am fascinated by water as a way to study water was environmental science. And so yeah. So I went to college for environmental science. And at the time I went to UCLA, they didn’t have an environmental science program.
00:04:14:50 – 00:04:21:20
Sarah Diringer
And it started like my sophomore year. And I just thought like, oh, well, this is kismet. Like they want me to be an environmental scientist.
00:04:21:27 – 00:04:27:38
Agent Palmer
So what was the what was the major to hold you over freshman year? Like or did you just not declare?
00:04:27:43 – 00:04:40:49
Sarah Diringer
It was like ecology and evolutionary biology or something. And it was. Yeah, it was close. It was all pre-med though. So it’s like fascinating because everyone was like, we have to take science classes, so we’ll take this one.
00:04:40:54 – 00:05:03:39
Agent Palmer
I so, so that’s funny to me because I, I ended up with the liberal arts degree, a communications degree, and I took one math and I took one science. I took biology 101 freshman year and then one environmental science. That was my science. And those are my three math science classes for all four years. Right.
00:05:03:51 – 00:05:05:12
Sarah Diringer
And like I did it, I got it.
00:05:05:12 – 00:05:30:45
Agent Palmer
I’m done. I don’t have to do any more. So what water is that? Why not go the other route? Right. And you and I are close enough in age that I can say this in high school. I remember marine biologist was a very like it was in vogue. I don’t know how. I think a lot of people grew out of it really quick.
00:05:30:50 – 00:05:40:35
Agent Palmer
But that was in vogue and I’m in Pennsylvania and that was in vogue. So if you’re in California, like, was that ever an option? Was that I thought it?
00:05:40:36 – 00:06:01:13
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, I totally was. I mean, I definitely was one of the, you know, when you pick as a kid, whether you’re going to be like, I guess it’s like a vet, a firefighter or a marine biologist, I was for sure in the marine biology camp. And actually, yeah, my first job in college was, like out in Santa Monica Bay.
00:06:01:13 – 00:06:24:45
Sarah Diringer
So it was doing sort of a marine side of stuff. And but it was still water quality testing. And so some of that stuff is the same, whether it’s freshwater or in the ocean. And then, yeah, I don’t know how I ended up on the freshwater side. It just sort of happened that way. And then now it’s interesting because it feels like I think I’d be excited to go back into more ocean things.
00:06:24:48 – 00:06:35:27
Sarah Diringer
Stuff. Yeah, yeah. But I it just hasn’t happened. So we’re like, I don’t know how to go back the other direction. It’s kind of interesting. Once you pick a path, you’re like, well I do freshwater now. Well it’s yeah.
00:06:35:27 – 00:07:06:08
Agent Palmer
There’s a very I guess kismet would be the word, but it’s also just like happenstance. Like once you go down the path, you’re down a path, with the exception that, like, some of us just never make that decision, because I’m slightly like, this is one of the times and I’ve said this so many times on my show, and I don’t know if it’s because I just happen to run into these kind of guests, but like, I’m super jealous of you that in seventh grade you found an interest and you followed through with that.
00:07:06:08 – 00:07:26:36
Agent Palmer
And it’s maintained because, like I, the list, I mean, it would take me the rest of this podcast to list all the things I would have at some point wanted to do. And I can pinpoint like, oh, this was a good teacher. And that changed this and this and the other, but I didn’t I still don’t know what I want to do.
00:07:26:36 – 00:07:59:40
Agent Palmer
So I’m, I’m, I’m making do. But like I like super jealous that you you you at the at least environment like maybe it was some ocean, some fresh water or whatever, but like just generally. And I have to applaud you for maintaining with it during our lifetime where what you are doing had had this podcast been recorded in the 1970s or 1980s, what you were doing would be kind of, mundane and like some people would be interested in.
00:07:59:40 – 00:08:08:16
Agent Palmer
Some people wouldn’t hear. As we record in the 2020s, you are, controversial. And like.
00:08:08:16 – 00:08:09:06
Sarah Diringer
That’s too bad.
00:08:09:15 – 00:08:31:25
Agent Palmer
Well, I understand that’s bad, but I’m just saying, like, this is something that has kind of evolved. You’ve become your your field has become more controversial since you’ve been educated in it and doing it. Do they do they do they at at least have a class somewhere that’s like, hey, you’re going to deal with some stuff.
00:08:31:29 – 00:08:53:53
Sarah Diringer
You know, that’s interesting. I so for grad school, I went from environmental science to environmental engineering. Okay. Partially because I had a conversation. I took a year off between undergrad and grad school and had a conversation with someone where they were like, well, you like math? Like just go environmental engineering. Like it’s it’s kind of the same thing, but like.
00:08:53:58 – 00:09:10:15
Agent Palmer
I am an idiot. I what’s the difference? Okay. Like so because to me, environmental sciences and environmental engineering, like I still see environmental sciences as like, well, we’re going to still clean stuff up. So is, is that also.
00:09:10:20 – 00:09:19:18
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, it’s like the environmental engineering side, I think, you know, like broad strokes is more like built environment. Okay. And originally like canals.
00:09:19:19 – 00:09:20:15
Agent Palmer
Manmade. Yeah.
00:09:20:24 – 00:09:46:33
Sarah Diringer
Okay. Yeah. And originally it was like civil and environmental engineering was one thing. And even most departments are still together. So it’s like buildings, bridges and like wastewater treatment systems and water drinking water treatment systems. And then the environmental science side is like, okay, now once it’s in the environment, what’s happening? Okay. And so like they’re clearly interconnected essentially the same thing.
00:09:46:38 – 00:10:09:19
Sarah Diringer
And someone was like, well, like you like math and people like engineers. So like go be an engineer. And it’s been fascinating even over the last ten years or so, that I think people have started to kind of like look down on engineers in some or not look down on, but like there’s like a social stigma around engineers and that engineers don’t like people or whatever it is.
00:10:09:24 – 00:10:33:57
Sarah Diringer
And so it’s always been fascinating to me because I, I like I have a degree in engineering, and I feel weird calling myself an engineer because I just don’t fit that like stigma or stereotype around what is an engineer. Well, and then, yeah, and then there’s one added piece where there are also professional engineers that are licensed, and they definitely don’t think that I’m an engineer, but that’s fair.
00:10:34:02 – 00:10:56:47
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I, I love the fact that you and I overlap there because I can write and I can edit and I can do marketing. I can do a lot of things I have. No, I only have experience. And so I’m not licensed. I didn’t even take any of the free Google courses, like I’m not accredited by any like.
00:10:56:47 – 00:11:08:30
Agent Palmer
So there are a lot of people out there who completely think I’m a faker because like, I’m just, well, you’re a writer, but like, do you write for other people? It’s like, no, I write for myself.
00:11:08:30 – 00:11:09:42
Sarah Diringer
Are you a writer?
00:11:09:42 – 00:11:33:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Do you have anything published? No. Well, then you’re not, like. And so I but I think that kind of exists everywhere, right? Like, for the most part, like nobody’s, Well, everybody’s comparing to something. But I, I have to ask, are you a hippie?
00:11:33:21 – 00:11:35:47
Sarah Diringer
I would you, because I don’t even know.
00:11:35:48 – 00:12:00:41
Agent Palmer
I came to this conclusion maybe a year or two ago that I am like, I’m not I’m not like a tree hugging hippie, but I am very much like a socialist, hippie, like, help everyone. All that kind of stuff. I’ll volunteer. I’ll do the thing. And I never I never thought about it in those terms until something happened that made me think about myself in a way.
00:12:00:41 – 00:12:01:43
Agent Palmer
And I went.
00:12:01:47 – 00:12:16:48
Sarah Diringer
Oh, like, all right, you know, I guess I don’t, I don’t know, I guess I don’t know the definition of hippie. And maybe this is the engineer part of me that’s like, okay, so how do you define it? And do I fit in that box?
00:12:16:52 – 00:12:22:44
Agent Palmer
Do you think so? Oh all right. But you so you think like an engineer now. But did you always think like an engineer?
00:12:22:57 – 00:12:49:48
Sarah Diringer
I think there were parts. So the thing I love about engineering, if you like, take away sort of the, I don’t know, the broad strokes that the. Yeah. Like all of the, the social stigma. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s like engineering is I think about taking something that’s in disorder and kind of figuring out the order of it. So a lot of like how you learn about engineering is like processes and like how does this flow to this, to this, to that.
00:12:49:48 – 00:13:09:55
Sarah Diringer
And I actually think that part has always been how I like to think about things I like. You know, I like flowcharts, I like figuring out like, you know, all of the different components and how they fit together. And so it’s sort of like, how does the machine work? And that mindset, I like applying to the natural environment also.
00:13:10:00 – 00:13:25:38
Sarah Diringer
So like how do rivers flow? What’s the, you know, like what inputs come in and like what does that mean. How does it transform in the river. Like those kinds of questions. So I think that’s all engineering. And I, I hate to think that’s in conflict with being a hippie, but I kind of I.
00:13:25:39 – 00:13:27:16
Agent Palmer
Don’t think it is. I mean.
00:13:27:16 – 00:13:28:28
Sarah Diringer
I.
00:13:28:33 – 00:13:40:28
Agent Palmer
I mean, I don’t know, I just don’t think it is. I just feel like there’s, there’s this, I like hippie, I think I think hippie has a better connotation than socialist.
00:13:40:32 – 00:13:42:57
Sarah Diringer
Even though the same thing.
00:13:43:02 – 00:13:44:48
Agent Palmer
Arguably.
00:13:44:53 – 00:13:52:32
Sarah Diringer
No, I mean, I do think I do think that everyone is better off when we’re all better off. Oh, and maybe that’s the hippie part.
00:13:52:32 – 00:13:53:35
Agent Palmer
That’s definitely. Yeah.
00:13:53:35 – 00:13:56:10
Sarah Diringer
That’s definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That like, if you think about.
00:13:56:13 – 00:14:01:56
Agent Palmer
Thinking about me for mine, then probably just described as a hippie kind of.
00:14:02:02 – 00:14:12:26
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, yeah. And I think it would be hard. Not like so I work mostly in the nonprofit space and it would be hard to be in the nonprofit space and not believe that helping people helps people.
00:14:12:26 – 00:14:20:51
Agent Palmer
That’s so I have I’ve been in nonprofits long enough that I like to describe my mindset as nonprofit. So, like.
00:14:20:52 – 00:14:21:53
Sarah Diringer
I.
00:14:21:58 – 00:14:30:18
Agent Palmer
I problem solve for content and marketing and PR based on what we can do, not how much we can spend.
00:14:30:23 – 00:14:30:58
Sarah Diringer
And I.
00:14:31:02 – 00:14:44:28
Agent Palmer
I, for better or worse, like I’ve been in interviews where people like, how would you do this? And I’d be like, well, this, this and this. And they’d be like, well, what if I gave you money and like, that’s when my brain stops. I’m like, I don’t know what to do with money. No one’s ever given me money.
00:14:44:35 – 00:15:11:29
Agent Palmer
I’ve never had money. I’ve always had not enough. And you have to make do. And I think there’s a, there’s a it’s a certain mentality, I think, I don’t know, when I talk to people that are in for profit or that have, well, ever. I think even if you have money, you want more. But like I think most people that don’t have are more adaptable.
00:15:11:34 – 00:15:24:48
Agent Palmer
When they don’t. Did you is there, like it feels like there are no it’s government and nonprofit for you. Like, those are your two tracks when you graduate, I assume I don’t are there for profit environmental sciences?
00:15:25:03 – 00:15:50:22
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. I mean, there’s certainly like consulting firms and stuff. So there’s a lot of like, especially the engineering firms. Both have usually both environmental science and environmental engineering. But yeah, I mean, I think I did feel a little bit like an outlier in grad school in engineering, wanting to go into the nonprofit space. And but being in the environmental science crowd, everyone’s like, oh, of course, nonprofits exist, and they do like all these things.
00:15:50:22 – 00:15:51:47
Sarah Diringer
And so it was just an interesting.
00:15:51:52 – 00:15:57:15
Agent Palmer
Where did the nonprofit, like, come from? Like, why why were you even thinking about that at that time?
00:15:57:19 – 00:16:23:13
Sarah Diringer
I think I’m sure some of it came from my parents. They both were and continue to be really active in the community in nonprofits, sitting on nonprofit boards, you know, like, I think so I was exposed to what are nonprofits. Yeah. Which I think actually a lot of folks are like like, what are nonprofits like? I remember I got my first nonprofit job and someone asked me about like, oh, well, how was I going to have health insurance?
00:16:23:13 – 00:16:40:20
Sarah Diringer
And I was like, oh, no. Like, I’m not prepared. Like I work for a nonprofit. Like, they they pay me like. Yeah. And so I think there’s sort of a like most people don’t really know the nonprofit ecosystem exists, which is fascinating, but like.
00:16:40:25 – 00:17:02:36
Agent Palmer
It’s the only one I see, the only one I see because, again, and my parents were the same thing, like they were on boards. They were on, and I, at the height of the pandemic, I got a phone call from a family friend going, hey, do you want to join a board? And he’s like, your parents are on all these things.
00:17:02:36 – 00:17:26:18
Agent Palmer
Like, it just makes sense that we would ask you if you would be interested. You’d be helpful for us. And I was like, sure. And so I did. And I did my two terms and I term limited out. And now I’m kind of like shopping for my next one. Yeah, I there is a part of me that looks at my parents who have been on multiple at the same time, and I go like that too much.
00:17:26:18 – 00:17:42:32
Agent Palmer
I don’t know how, like, I’m maybe I’m just not that good, but, or maybe I have too much other stuff going on there, but I don’t know that I could do 2 or 3 or. Yeah, I found one to be the right amount.
00:17:42:37 – 00:17:44:02
Sarah Diringer
00:17:44:06 – 00:17:48:24
Agent Palmer
But have you, have you been on a board yet a nonprofit yet.
00:17:48:29 – 00:18:17:06
Sarah Diringer
So I’ve been, I’m currently on the, the synagogue board which then is a whole other type of board. But it’s, but still a nonprofit. Yeah. And then it’s interesting because I’ve worked on a lot of nonprofit, so I’ve engaged with the board, but I haven’t yet been on the board of a nonprofit. So now that I’m not at a nonprofit, I feel like I’m like, oh, like I should start looking for being on a board because I love learning about organizations and like kind of all the strategy.
00:18:17:06 – 00:18:38:41
Sarah Diringer
And and I think to your earlier point on, like trying to figure out what to do with limited money. Yeah. I think it’s such an interesting thing because you do have to figure out how do we be most effective and strategize and like it’s not about growing our profit next quarter. It’s about like we have these big goals to save the world and all its people and all those things.
00:18:38:41 – 00:18:43:09
Sarah Diringer
And and then now we have finite resources. Well. And how like how do you do that?
00:18:43:11 – 00:18:56:42
Agent Palmer
Isn’t that just, engineering but with other resources like, I mean, you’ve kind of learned those processes. I would assume most of those are not transferable. Exactly, but kinda.
00:18:56:47 – 00:19:21:22
Sarah Diringer
I mean, it’s interesting because I think they are transferable sometimes, except that engineers it’s true that we don’t learn a lot about people as resources go. Like, right. So like you could have the best strategy in the world, but if you don’t have the people that implement that strategy, then like, who cares? And so even some of the like, you know, like some of the water treatment systems are like the best treatment systems in the world.
00:19:21:22 – 00:19:37:09
Sarah Diringer
But if they don’t have staff that are there all the time, then like it doesn’t work. And so I don’t know, like that part I think is where I really like learning is like, who are the people who do the work now? Because yeah, otherwise it’s just strategy. And like that’s cool.
00:19:37:09 – 00:19:43:08
Agent Palmer
So how many advanced degrees after bachelor’s, how many degrees do you have?
00:19:43:13 – 00:19:47:30
Sarah Diringer
Just just one. But it’s a PhD okay. So yeah so.
00:19:47:39 – 00:20:01:25
Agent Palmer
That’s but that that’s been done. That’s in the past. How much learning not on the job but just how much like have you continued to learn in your free time or whatever free time you have?
00:20:01:29 – 00:20:11:11
Sarah Diringer
I mean, I guess so I feel like I know you learn every day, right? I, I haven’t done like, like official sit down, take course.
00:20:11:14 – 00:20:15:41
Agent Palmer
No, no, I’m not thinking that. I’m just thinking like, I, I’ve been reading.
00:20:15:45 – 00:20:16:18
Sarah Diringer
Just.
00:20:16:23 – 00:20:56:10
Agent Palmer
Books in general, but also books outside of my comfort zone for the sake of maybe further educating myself as I have sworn off school. Although I say that and apropos of nothing, the other day I was like, you know, I mean, it’s not like I don’t have enough going on, but like, maybe a master’s degree would be interesting to like just go back just to to go be in a formal, education system again, even though for years, even on this podcast, I’ve said, like, I think I’m done with formal education, like for some reason, I’m just like, maybe I could go back.
00:20:56:15 – 00:21:04:01
Agent Palmer
But again, I don’t know what I want to do. So like any good guidance counselor or admissions person is going to be like, well, what do you want?
00:21:04:06 – 00:21:05:27
Sarah Diringer
And you?
00:21:05:32 – 00:21:12:25
Agent Palmer
The answer is not another piece of paper like that’s, that’s or at the very least that’s a poor answer.
00:21:12:29 – 00:21:28:10
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, I do some I, I find myself when I’m either really frustrated or don’t know what I want to do, I find myself being like, I could go back to school for a different degree. And I think that more comes from that. I was really good at school. I’m like, I would like to be good. So comfortable.
00:21:28:10 – 00:21:53:45
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, that academic, I know, I think one of the reasons I never wanted to go back was because my four years on campus were the most comfortable, like, I, I had my share of whatever. Right. Like, I would argue, like I used I wrote for the paper. I got very heavily involved on student government, I would argue with the administration, but I was also friendly with the administration.
00:21:53:45 – 00:22:15:17
Agent Palmer
Like especially I went to a much smaller school than you. But like I was a big fish in a small pond, outside of the classroom stuff, the classroom stuff. Fairly easy for me. And so I just always look back and go like that. Maybe that’s just too comfortable. Maybe that’s the reason I was like, we don’t want to do that again.
00:22:15:26 – 00:22:21:13
Agent Palmer
Like, that was it was a vacation that was a cupcake. Yeah. Compared to what happens after.
00:22:21:18 – 00:22:29:34
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Well I think yeah, I mean I, I, I loved school, I think I like I was good at it. Would you have if you.
00:22:29:34 – 00:22:49:27
Agent Palmer
Could have if you could have been a career student, would you still be a career like. You know what I mean? Because like that’s what I think I would have I think at some point I would have said, yeah, probably like, let’s just never leave this. It was mine was an Ivy League or Ivy covered, like, let’s leave.
00:22:49:30 – 00:22:53:28
Agent Palmer
Let’s never leave this walled garden. Let’s just stay in school.
00:22:53:33 – 00:23:15:38
Sarah Diringer
I think I think eventually I got frustrated or bored with like, it felt like we were playing at real life, you know, like you would, like, do a paper that was maybe, like, interesting, but it didn’t actually, like, do anything out in the world. Yeah. And I think eventually I would have gotten like, okay, but what’s the point?
00:23:15:38 – 00:23:35:25
Sarah Diringer
Like I can write another paper and I can get a grade on it and cool. And I have to remind myself that of when I’m like, I just want to go back to school. But like, it didn’t. It was good personally, but it didn’t actually like, do anything. And and so now when I’m it’s just interesting now it’s a change in mindset.
00:23:35:25 – 00:23:47:46
Sarah Diringer
If I like, write a report that I have to remind myself that, like, it actually should do something. Oh, it’s like finishing the report is not the thing. Yeah. Like it’s just a step toward doing something. Yeah.
00:23:47:55 – 00:24:16:21
Agent Palmer
There’s a that’s that’s the thing about getting out of that thing where it’s like, oh, this matters. Like it’s it’s not just about a grade like this is. Yeah. And even even to that extent like and I’ve, I think I’ve always been this way to the detriment of every English teacher I’ve ever had. I’ve always been about the message, maybe a little bit more than the style of that message, or sometimes even the grammar, even still.
00:24:16:21 – 00:24:41:41
Agent Palmer
But like, it’s always been about. Did I convey the thing? And most of the time, like, I’ll have Steph read something for me and I’ll be like, and she’ll be like, well, you missed a comma here. And I’m like, yeah, but I don’t care about like, I want to know, did I convey the message, do you think like, do people are people going to know I liked this book or I hated this book, or that I want them to learn this thing?
00:24:41:41 – 00:25:18:30
Agent Palmer
Like, did I convey the message is the most important thing. And in school that feels almost secondary, no matter which track science or like whatever, like it almost feels like they don’t care. And I’ve, I’ve been downsizing our house because I’ve collected things and I’ve moved them with me through my life for better, probably for worse. You know, you don’t need to keep all that stuff, but I I’ll read some notes from like, some stuff I wrote in college, and it’s like nobody said anything about a message.
00:25:18:35 – 00:25:18:42
Sarah Diringer
That.
00:25:18:45 – 00:25:36:51
Agent Palmer
Oh, you know, this is a run on sentence. Oh, you know, whatever, whatever. But very few of my professors ever talked about the actual message, and then you get out and somebody’s like, I don’t know what you’re saying here. It’s like, well, nobody taught me.
00:25:37:00 – 00:25:39:31
Sarah Diringer
So what do you mean, this is. Yeah, cause.
00:25:39:31 – 00:25:51:26
Agent Palmer
I have a problem with that thing. So that’s what I’ve been kind of working on through. I think that’s kind of what the blog is become is like, am I conveying the thing?
00:25:51:31 – 00:26:18:38
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. And I want everything to like it to be clear at the end what. I don’t know what influence it should have. Okay. But like regardless of how you read it and now we get to throw out all the grammatical rules we ever learned. Yeah. Like, did it convey what what I think and what I think should be different in the world, or how we should change or whatever versus like, I don’t know, like this is the state of things as they are now and like cool.
00:26:18:38 – 00:26:28:10
Sarah Diringer
And at the end now you know, a little more and like, that’s great. I think those things should exist. But it’s just we’re in a time when we need to be moving some things along.
00:26:28:15 – 00:26:55:03
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s yeah, there’s, I, okay. So I’m not we’re not going to talk about like, global warming as a whole. But I have to ask, like in the industry, does it feel like there’s a ticking clock because it. Oh, like when I read anything professional about environment, weather, whatever, it always feels like. Well, the time to rush was before.
00:26:55:03 – 00:27:15:22
Agent Palmer
So now it’s like really hurried. And I know that there’s people on the other side. They’re like, there’s something going on, but we’re going to ignore them for now. But like, is there a, like an internal ticking clock where, like when you go to write something, you’re like, well, but this is going to, you know, based on rainfall, this is going to erode.
00:27:15:22 – 00:27:26:55
Agent Palmer
And so we have to build the bridge structure back an extra half mile. So that way when these two banks are moved back 100ft, the bridge still stands. Like, is that is that a thing?
00:27:27:00 – 00:27:48:40
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. I mean I think there’s multiple ticking clocks, which, is very anxiety inducing, like, but I think especially for water folks. So there’s sort of a the broader climate people. Yeah. And then there’s water people as a subset of climate people, which is it? I don’t know, the whole field is fascinating. Well, yeah, I’ve just how we’ve divided ourselves.
00:27:48:40 – 00:27:48:51
Sarah Diringer
Yeah.
00:27:48:52 – 00:28:00:32
Agent Palmer
Because clean water is still kind of a thing for. Well, I mean, it’s, it’s kind of a thing for humanity’s survival. I mean, yeah, it can get warmer, but we still need to drink something.
00:28:00:32 – 00:28:23:10
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So there’s, like, the, like, immediate ticking clock of, like, people don’t have clean water coming out of their taps in the United States, the richest country in the world. Like, that’s wild. So there’s, like, the ticking clock of, like, we need to do something about that right now. Now? Yeah, yeah. And then there’s I feel like there’s a next ticking clock of like, hurricane season is coming.
00:28:23:10 – 00:28:50:37
Sarah Diringer
Fire season is constantly coming. Like like the most anxiety inducing creeping like that. Just like you have to solve problems right now. You have to think about problems this year. And then I think there’s another ticking clock of like, climate change is making all of this harder. So like, let’s double down on it. So I think there there are folks who are working with that urgency because it’s just going to get harder and harder to solve problems.
00:28:50:37 – 00:28:51:45
Sarah Diringer
So as climate change gets.
00:28:51:45 – 00:29:21:08
Agent Palmer
Worse, I think about it this way. I’ve, I lived in Pennsylvania my whole life, actually. I spent a four months in North Carolina. At one point I went, this isn’t for me. That’s a whole different, culturally. It just it was a little slower than I would have liked, for everything, pace of life, whatever. But having lived in Pennsylvania, I share a few things with you because I know you went to school in North Carolina.
00:29:21:13 – 00:29:41:32
Agent Palmer
I have lived through a few hurricanes. Not something that growing up, you know, we ever learned about, you know, like when I’m 12, in whatever grade it is, and there’s like, oh, there’s these weather things called hurricanes and tornadoes. Those are things that happen elsewhere. And I also lived through there’s been a tornado within 50 miles of my house, right.
00:29:41:32 – 00:30:02:02
Agent Palmer
Like, and most astonishingly to me, I’ve lived through an earthquake that I felt right, like actually two of them now. So, I go with my urgency is that Pennsylvania was like we were going to live through blizzards that like.
00:30:02:07 – 00:30:02:29
Sarah Diringer
Some.
00:30:02:29 – 00:30:35:06
Agent Palmer
People were never going to experience. But like the hurricanes, that was that was the Atlantic coast. That was their problem. And the tornadoes was the the breadbasket. That was their problem. And California could keep its earthquakes. And now, you know, I’ve, I have to deal with all of those things where and I have to learn about them as an adult because I don’t know about you, but like, having grown up in California, when you learned about earthquakes, you kind of had to pay attention.
00:30:35:11 – 00:30:56:21
Agent Palmer
I could I felt like that happens elsewhere. I can slack off, like I don’t need to learn that much. And now it feels like, well, I feel like I skipped a thing. Like, what am I like, what do I like? Oh my God. And like a hurricane now. Like just all these things that these don’t exist. They didn’t exist for ten year old me.
00:30:56:26 – 00:30:58:54
Agent Palmer
Yeah, that was somebody else’s problem.
00:30:58:58 – 00:31:20:10
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. And actually, one of the things I find fun about now, being married to a marylander, like having grown up in California, is like what we experienced as kids as like the disaster things. So like when, like California, like, yeah, I grew up with earthquakes being a thing. We did our earthquake drills where, you know, we’d get under the desk and all of that.
00:31:20:10 – 00:31:39:29
Sarah Diringer
And, and we actually lived near a nuclear plant. And so we also had, like, nuclear evacuation drills, which I also thought was normal. Like, this is just a thing everybody learns. And then I moved to North Carolina. And the first year there, first of all, there was an earthquake, like a month after moving there. And I was like, no, like, I, I left it.
00:31:39:30 – 00:32:04:19
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, I left this behind. Yeah. I was like, absolutely not. And then there was like a hurricane watch. It wasn’t. I don’t even think it was a warning. It was like the lowest level at I freaked out, I like put all the bottled water in my car. I packed everything up. I was like, ready to go. And everyone else who grew up like Mid Atlantic was like, so we’re, you know, over 100 miles from the coast.
00:32:04:24 – 00:32:21:37
Sarah Diringer
It’s going to rain a little and I think we’ll be okay. And I just was like, we’re ready to go. We’re driving out like. And so it was just fascinating because learning about hurricanes and then trying to figure out, like, how nervous I should be about it, I just don’t have a sense of that. And then. And then.
00:32:21:41 – 00:32:35:12
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. And then the first snow day happened and I was like, okay, we need to like, be prepared. And Andy was just like, yeah, be prepared to like, have a fun day outside. Yeah, yeah. I was like, I’ve never had a snow day until grad school. Like I didn’t know what to do with myself.
00:32:35:12 – 00:32:42:39
Agent Palmer
So have you. So we’ve covered almost all of them. So have you. Have you lived through the tornado warning too? Like, was that a.
00:32:42:44 – 00:33:03:04
Sarah Diringer
We had a couple in North Carolina. And luckily the engineering, the civil engineering building has a basement that is the hurricane shelter or not the tornado shelter. Okay. And so our lab happened to be in the tornado area. And so I could just, like, keep working and just like, you know, for better or worse, I was, like, already there, so.
00:33:03:08 – 00:33:20:26
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but but I, if I, if I talk to 12 year old Sara, you’re expecting that you maybe North Carolina, you deal with a hurricane. But if you’re not in Iowa there’s never a tornado problem. Like, if you’re not by me in Pennsylvania or New York, there’s no blizzard like this. And so.
00:33:20:26 – 00:33:21:18
Sarah Diringer
Right, it’s.
00:33:21:31 – 00:33:48:36
Agent Palmer
It’s now universal. And talk about the Maryland thing. And this is the thing that scares me the most. The, the absolute most is I used, you know, Andy’s my cousin. I, we would go visit him and the grandparents and there are smells from Maryland that I remember that were different from my hometown. Right. I’m just a couple hours north.
00:33:48:49 – 00:34:16:25
Agent Palmer
But like it, it was different, right? Just something about the air was different. My son is going to grow up smelling that in his backyard. Like those smells have come further north, whether it’s the humidity or. I mean, now Pennsylvania’s technically subtropical, like, whatever it is about those smells that I had to travel hours to smell are now here, right, for whatever reason.
00:34:16:25 – 00:34:43:32
Agent Palmer
And so I go like, well, this isn’t this is this is definitely not normal. Like, that’s that’s not something I should be dealing with here. And I don’t know what those smells are and I don’t and I know that there’s something different about it, but like, there’s just something about it that just like this feels like when we used to drive three hours south, always this here now and I go like, that’s I.
00:34:43:38 – 00:35:07:58
Agent Palmer
Well, how about this? I don’t mean to doom say you, but like, you have, you have a child a little bit older than mine. But did having a child change your perspective on your urgency in your field? Like, are you, you know, you had a baby and you went, oh, oh, oh, like, was there a moment or are you still find a good.
00:35:08:09 – 00:35:32:49
Sarah Diringer
It’s bad for all you know, actually, it’s interesting because I, I definitely felt the anxiety beforehand. And I think it did put it into perspective that now when people say things like, you know, 20, 50, I’m like, oh, like actually like my, my kid won’t even be 30. Like, I like that kind of thing is interesting. But I actually think in some ways it forced me to slow down, which has been good.
00:35:32:54 – 00:35:57:48
Sarah Diringer
Okay. Like because I think the urgency and I hear this from a lot of people that I work with, the urgency and anxiety is like part of why everyone leaves working in nonprofits and environmental sciences, because it’s like, so anxiety inducing and you burn yourself out. And then so having a kid, I felt like I started being like, I can’t deal with all of these problems like I have, like, like right now we’re doing potty training.
00:35:57:48 – 00:36:14:55
Sarah Diringer
So I only have so much energy outside of potty training to do anything else. So then I’m much more careful about what I want to work on and like what I want to give that anxiety and stress to. Okay. And so before it used to feel like I have all, I don’t know, I had all this extra energy to like just be anxious.
00:36:15:08 – 00:36:39:53
Sarah Diringer
And now I’m like, okay, I’m saving that like extra, you know, like bandwidth for my kid. And then now I’m being more strategic about, like, I’m not going to deal with drama. I’m not doing any of these like side things. Like, what are we focused on? What are we solving like and like? Yeah. And it’s put it in perspective for me that I’m also one person who can solve something, not everything, but like I can solve something.
00:36:39:54 – 00:36:43:21
Sarah Diringer
I should focus on that something instead of anxiety about everything. So I want.
00:36:43:21 – 00:36:53:04
Agent Palmer
To ask this, before I follow up, how were you with saying no?
00:36:53:08 – 00:36:57:12
Sarah Diringer
In general? Yeah, I’m better at it now.
00:36:57:14 – 00:37:06:55
Agent Palmer
Okay. Well, so this is what is so I so I have been I think that having a child would have changed my perspective on saying no.
00:37:07:00 – 00:37:07:27
Sarah Diringer
00:37:07:38 – 00:37:27:00
Agent Palmer
If it hadn’t been for the last maybe seven years of my life, I’ve gradually been saying no more often. And so I’ve been well I mean potty training in my future. But like I’m not at that point where like it has to be like the kid first. Like I’ve been slowly.
00:37:27:05 – 00:37:27:19
Sarah Diringer
Here.
00:37:27:32 – 00:37:58:55
Agent Palmer
Saying no to more and more things because like at a certain point in my maybe from about, maybe from 25 to 35, if I’m being honest, maybe that full ten year decade, I didn’t say no to a lot of things. And I should I should caveat I said no to a lot of family and social things, but when it came to like a friend or an artist or an organization, I didn’t think about me.
00:37:59:00 – 00:38:19:10
Agent Palmer
Oh. You need help with a podcast? Oh, you need a podcast guest. Oh, you need a writer. Oh, you need five minutes for me to go move a thing or whatever. Like it was a lot of yeses. And I think from 35 through now, these last 7 or 8 years, I’ve been slowly learning the value of, like, my own time for me.
00:38:19:12 – 00:38:46:13
Agent Palmer
Right. So, like, now that I have a kid, I have a little bit more time for him now than I would have if we had done this a decade ago when I was like, yes, I will do all the things, and I don’t. I don’t know what it was. I don’t know, like where that happened. And I’m thankful it happened beforehand because having a kid would have been the well, I’m going to say no to everything now.
00:38:46:18 – 00:39:05:24
Agent Palmer
And that’s vastly different. But that’s the reason I ask. Because, like, there are these anxieties and you do want to help and you do get kind of involved in a lot of different things. And then all of a sudden, Who’s Sarah? Like, who’s Jason? Like where what am I left? I’m just doing all all of the other things.
00:39:05:29 – 00:39:26:08
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Yeah. I think I had sort of a similar experience maybe starting in like when I turned 30, that was like, oh yeah, like, what don’t I want? I’m like, what do I want to do? And and then it’s been interesting. Yeah. Having Luca that I feel like. Yeah. When he was born, I did say no to kind of everything.
00:39:26:08 – 00:39:35:48
Sarah Diringer
I was like, we’re going to do, you know, the six weeks of nothing. And and it was kind of, and the first six weeks was awful. I don’t know how it. Yeah. No, I do it.
00:39:35:54 – 00:39:46:04
Agent Palmer
That’s that’s how it was for us. But I also feel like I didn’t have time. Well, first of all, the first six weeks don’t exist. Like, that’s a blob. That’s a blur. That’s,
00:39:46:09 – 00:39:50:40
Sarah Diringer
So if I thank goodness you could just forget that whole. Right. And I’m so excited to never remember.
00:39:50:40 – 00:39:55:08
Agent Palmer
If I had said yes to anything, I don’t know that I would have known what I was.
00:39:55:08 – 00:40:20:04
Sarah Diringer
Doing. Yeah. Well, and I think yeah the first so the first six weeks was not everything. And then I, I think it took me another year or so to realize that like I am just a much better person if I take time for me, and then I’m a better parent, I’m a better partner too. And like, I need to exercise multiple times a week.
00:40:20:04 – 00:40:30:10
Sarah Diringer
I need to sleep enough, and then I’m just a better person. And I think I didn’t connect that maybe in my 20s, but like, you can hustle for so long in your.
00:40:30:10 – 00:40:37:31
Agent Palmer
20s, you’re still invincible, right? Like, I feel like even, even when.
00:40:37:31 – 00:40:39:44
Sarah Diringer
I sleep, when you’re dead or. Right. Yeah.
00:40:39:44 – 00:40:43:21
Agent Palmer
And even when I was in my 30s, I thought like, nah, I’m fine. Like.
00:40:43:21 – 00:40:45:17
Sarah Diringer
And I’ve.
00:40:45:22 – 00:40:48:55
Agent Palmer
I exercise seasonally.
00:40:49:00 – 00:40:49:38
Sarah Diringer
Okay.
00:40:49:43 – 00:40:54:36
Agent Palmer
If it’s, if it’s under 70 degrees, I’m inside. It’s fine. It’s fine.
00:40:54:36 – 00:40:56:26
Sarah Diringer
I don’t we are exact opposite.
00:40:56:29 – 00:41:20:55
Agent Palmer
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. No. When it’s, when it’s 70, 80, I’ll even go for a run. When it’s 90. People think I’m nuts and I’m like, I. It’s fine, I like it. It’s good. Like, I don’t I don’t I hate the idea of running to stay warm. Okay. Now, perhaps it’s because I ran cross-country with a coach who was a sadist and was like, hey, we’re not going to wear long sleeves under our singlets for the mental advantage.
00:41:21:09 – 00:41:37:55
Agent Palmer
And you’re, what, 15? And you’re like, sure, that sounds like something that might help me. Why not? And so I think I’ve been so scarred from that that I’m like, if it’s if it’s 70 degrees or less, I’m not going out. And if it’s raining, forget about it. It’s not happening.
00:41:38:00 – 00:41:45:42
Sarah Diringer
But I think I’m the exact opposite, like over 70. I’m like, oh, do we have an indoor activity we can do? Like, it’s very warm out.
00:41:45:47 – 00:42:16:03
Agent Palmer
But that invincibility and I think that maybe that invincibility un unrelated to the sleep and all that stuff, I think that’s kind of why you say yes to all those things, because you’re like, well, what’s an hour here? Like, I can sleep at night or like whatever it is. So but when you started taking time for you, was not to get too personal, but, like, was there a moment where you were like, oh, like I have to change something?
00:42:16:03 – 00:42:37:04
Agent Palmer
Or was it like, let me try this? Because for me, it was definitely, like a moment, like there was a, I don’t, I don’t, I can’t place the moment. But it was like, I’m doing so much for so many. And like, I didn’t have time to run anymore, like a summer. Like it was a beautiful summer.
00:42:37:04 – 00:42:57:52
Agent Palmer
And it’s like. It’s like August, and I’ve run twice, and it’s like, I’m so busy that, like, I’m coming home from work. I’m home by 530, but then I’m. I’m, I’m doing stuff until like 1130, 12 at midnight at night. And I none of I like these people. I want to do these things, but none of it’s for me.
00:42:57:52 – 00:43:12:08
Agent Palmer
Right. And so I think there was that moment where it’s like, oh, I gotta slow up somehow. But for me, there was a moment when I was like, all right, now, now we push back, like, did you have a moment or was it just kind of.
00:43:12:13 – 00:43:37:54
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Yeah. This is all right. I, I think ironically and sort of sadly I think Covid did that okay. Because. Right. Like you know March 2020 I, we went into that and I don’t know I thought we were just going to be home for a couple of weeks and, and yeah, Andy and I both started working from home and I started walking 10,000 steps a day and I was like, I’m going to do this until we get out of quarantine.
00:43:38:05 – 00:44:05:41
Sarah Diringer
I was like, it’ll be six weeks, it’ll be great. I’m going to do 10,000 steps a day. And we live in a neighborhood where I felt like I could walk whenever. So it’d be like 10:00 at night and I’d be like, I’m going to go for a walk. Sure. And I just found that I was so much more like focused during the day, like calm, just getting like, yeah, being outside and that, like, we suddenly didn’t have all those things on our calendars like I had been, you know, I’d go climbing in the morning with a friend and then go to work all day.
00:44:05:41 – 00:44:25:02
Sarah Diringer
And I played in a band two nights a week. And like all these different things, and all of a sudden we were just we were, you know, just home and like. And we were super lucky we were it was like pre-COVID, you know, like we both had jobs that could work remotely, like we were, you know, like the, the easy whatever home thing.
00:44:25:06 – 00:44:44:57
Sarah Diringer
But it just I think that was really different. And during like during grad school and a little bit after I word, I think I gained like 40 pounds because I just like, wasn’t taking care of myself and was like doing too many things, not exercising, like trying to figure out when to eat and whatever. And then Covid lost all of that, okay?
00:44:44:57 – 00:45:04:09
Sarah Diringer
Because I just was like, I’m home. I’m like, all this time I had spent doing all these other things and not focusing on me, like had impact. And so I think that that was a big turning point. And then so I tried to maintain some of that now that we get to be out and about and but it is hard because now I’m like, oh, but I could do this one thing.
00:45:04:09 – 00:45:36:01
Agent Palmer
Well, so here’s the thing. And this is the thing that I keep telling staff, crying baby, you’re not. You have to take care of yourself first. Like, that’s the reason that you put the mask on yourself before you put it. So like, it doesn’t matter. Like, I, I know he’s he’s crying and I there’s a, there’s a moment and I, I it’s only happened recently where like he’ll cry because he’s tired but that’ll keep him awake and like I don’t know why.
00:45:36:01 – 00:45:44:55
Agent Palmer
It’s a point of pride for me. But like I don’t mind him screaming in my ear like it feels like, all right, well, I can take it, kid. Let’s go. Like, let’s see what happens.
00:45:44:55 – 00:45:45:51
Sarah Diringer
Right?
00:45:45:56 – 00:46:07:08
Agent Palmer
But there’s this moment where it’s like, if I’m okay with it. Like if I’m in a place where I. If I’m in a good place, he can scream in my ear for 15 minutes until he falls asleep. If I’m in a bad place, I think after five minutes I’m going to lose it, right? And I think, yeah, at the moment that’s how I know.
00:46:07:13 – 00:46:23:06
Sarah Diringer
If it’s yeah you’re like I don’t have the energy right now to do the thing I want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah I, I find that and I think having a kid really put that in perspective for me because before like you can be like not a great person and like yes, Andy was not thrilled with that.
00:46:23:06 – 00:46:43:40
Sarah Diringer
But you’re like still get it done. Right? It doesn’t affect that like other people. It doesn’t affect, you know, like your life that much. Whatever. And now like, it feels really like, I don’t know, it’s just like so right in front of you that you’re like, if I had a little bit more energy, a little more patience right in this moment, like we wouldn’t fight about you getting in your car seat.
00:46:43:45 – 00:47:01:51
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, like I could give you the extra minute. And so I think that’s when I start being like, oh, I really need some exercise this week. Like, I am like, bedtime was a pain and I didn’t have it in me to like whatever. And so I think it’s put it more in perspective to, I think, deal with myself.
00:47:01:53 – 00:47:16:43
Agent Palmer
I think it’s so good that you started this beforehand, though. I mean, I think, I think I think we both got lucky because I, I know that the transition from like, like into it’s not I guess it is technically self-care, but to transition into it.
00:47:16:48 – 00:47:17:25
Sarah Diringer
00:47:17:30 – 00:47:25:18
Agent Palmer
It’s not just you wake up one day and it happens like it’s a transition. I can’t imagine starting it after Kit.
00:47:25:23 – 00:47:25:55
Sarah Diringer
00:47:25:57 – 00:47:37:03
Agent Palmer
Like that seem because you’re already exhausted and thankfully you’re a few years ahead of us. So you can remind us how exhausted we will continue to be.
00:47:37:07 – 00:47:39:28
Sarah Diringer
But it gets so much better.
00:47:39:33 – 00:47:48:18
Agent Palmer
But I just, I know that like I’m if I’m doing well for me and then I can do well for the rest and everybody else.
00:47:48:18 – 00:48:09:57
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the more it does feel like a practice, because the more you do it, the more you realize that, like it didn’t negatively affect anyone for you to step away for an hour. Like I think at the beginning I was like, oh, like, can I go for a run? Like, I should probably only go for 30 minutes, and I’d come back and Andy and Luca would be in the same place still playing.
00:48:09:57 – 00:48:23:10
Sarah Diringer
And I’m like, oh, I could have been gone for longer. Like I should have gone another lap or whatever. And but it, it takes like some building that muscle and being like, oh yeah. Like nothing bad happened that I went and did this thing.
00:48:23:10 – 00:48:29:43
Agent Palmer
So what’s, what’s your temperature like, what’s your high end temperature for going for a run 72 is the highest you’ll go probably.
00:48:29:45 – 00:48:30:40
Sarah Diringer
All right. So and that’s.
00:48:30:50 – 00:48:34:58
Agent Palmer
That’s the only overlap you and I have. If it’s if it’s 72 we can go for.
00:48:34:58 – 00:48:42:02
Sarah Diringer
A run together. I will say that that temperature needs to go down. If it’s humid, this is like oh, very much so.
00:48:42:05 – 00:48:57:48
Agent Palmer
Know that in me. And maybe, maybe as I get older it will change. But at the moment, like I where humidity is a badge of honor, like, yes, I got my two and a half or three miles in and it was 85 and like 90% humidity. I swam through that run.
00:48:57:48 – 00:49:14:37
Sarah Diringer
It was, oh my God, my nightmare. Yeah. Last time we were in Baltimore, maybe in August or something, and I went for a run in the morning. I was like, just going to get up early and go. And it was, it was probably only 60 degrees. And I just like, I wore cotton because that’s what I wear at home.
00:49:14:37 – 00:49:21:14
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. And my shirt just felt so heavy by the end. I just was like, I hate this. Like, we can’t run here.
00:49:21:25 – 00:49:50:17
Agent Palmer
It was my. So obviously I spoke about like some of that smell and that humidity coming north. But like Stefan, I went to Baltimore for some Orioles games and we go down for a series. We stay in the hotel, we walk around the Inner Harbor. We basically park the car and don’t use it again till we leave. But we went for a walk in the morning and this was like, I don’t know, it was August, but it wasn’t like they were hot days, but they weren’t like hot, hot days.
00:49:50:22 – 00:49:58:27
Agent Palmer
But like all I remember is like, we got back from like a morning out and I was like, so what do you want to do? And she’s like, nap, because the humidity.
00:49:58:33 – 00:49:58:48
Sarah Diringer
Just.
00:49:58:57 – 00:50:06:09
Agent Palmer
Sapped everything. And I’m I’m used to it, not because I run in it, but like I’m just used to that humidity now.
00:50:06:14 – 00:50:06:50
Sarah Diringer
And.
00:50:06:55 – 00:50:31:12
Agent Palmer
You know, she had moved in with me from Arizona where it’s a dry heat. So like, I always tell the story of how I almost killed her mother because her mother, she came with she brought her mother to visit me and, like, see this guy I’m going to move in with. And I was at the time, I have a window unit that does my whole house, and I think nothing of being like a little warm, but it was fine.
00:50:31:17 – 00:50:41:03
Agent Palmer
And her mother drank four bottles of water in 30 minutes and I went, okay, like, do you need me to turn the air on? Like, it’s okay, I don’t want you to die.
00:50:41:08 – 00:50:42:02
Sarah Diringer
And it’s.
00:50:42:02 – 00:50:48:35
Agent Palmer
Just like, I like, I saw the signs. I was like, okay, that’s that’s somebody who’s not used to humidity at all.
00:50:48:40 – 00:51:10:50
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, yeah, I yeah, it is a funny part because I, I actually loved living in North Carolina and loved Durham and I just have to believe that people adjust over time to humidity. It did not happen. It did not in the six years we were there. Like I think it got better, but I definitely did not go running in the summer like I was.
00:51:10:50 – 00:51:27:16
Sarah Diringer
I was running a lot when we moved or when I first moved there, and I would get up early and try to go. And I just, I think that like slowly just was like, this is not working for me. And then I was like, oh, there’s gyms. Like, I just learned about the gym. You can run inside and then it just changes the whole thing.
00:51:27:16 – 00:51:30:25
Sarah Diringer
It’s then it’s just for exercise. It’s not for mental health or.
00:51:30:26 – 00:51:44:14
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that’s the thing. Right. Like I think running for me it’s almost more about mental health and physical health. Now. And so I don’t think it would work on a treadmill. I think it would feel like work.
00:51:44:19 – 00:51:53:49
Sarah Diringer
Yeah, I know I did, I did like yeah. Because then you’re like either watching Netflix or something. But yeah, I’m sure there are people who love running on treadmills. It hasn’t been my thing, but no.
00:51:54:02 – 00:51:55:18
Agent Palmer
Me either. No.
00:51:55:23 – 00:52:01:26
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Although I will say I got a peloton bike and I do love it because then when it’s over 72 degrees, I can you.
00:52:01:26 – 00:52:01:49
Agent Palmer
Can stay.
00:52:01:49 – 00:52:11:13
Sarah Diringer
Inside on the bike for.
00:52:11:17 – 00:52:34:21
Agent Palmer
So perhaps other than a very specific set of weather conditions, Sarah and I won’t be running together. We’re just different kinds of runners. Though we do agree on getting involved volunteering in the value of the nonprofit space. We agree on the value of no and continuing to learn even if it isn’t in a structured environment. We also agree on the most important thing either of us said in the entire episode.
00:52:34:26 – 00:52:57:43
Agent Palmer
Everyone is better off when we’re all better off. It’s hard to imagine a world in which there is a logical counter to this, but there are pundits out there who try filling the airwaves and screens and devices with illogical arguments about how everyone is only better off when I or you are better off. Ignore them. Know that there is a universal truth to everyone.
00:52:57:43 – 00:53:22:17
Agent Palmer
Is better off when we’re all better off. Reach out to your neighbors. Get to know your community, talk to your friends, understand what they are going through, and for the love of everything. A text is not as meaningful as a phone call or real conversation. Stop pretending otherwise. Over 150 episodes of the podcast and I often and these outros suggesting that you do the thing you’ve been putting off this time.
00:53:22:17 – 00:53:46:52
Agent Palmer
Call the person you’ve been thinking about, visit them, write them a letter, even. It’s about time we start to make the world a small place again. Get personal, get to know people and get on with building community, even if it’s your own. The internet may have once made the world small, but now all it does is fracture, divide and build walls, put down the phones, shut off the screens and start tearing down the walls.
00:53:46:57 – 00:54:06:12
Agent Palmer
Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 153. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact Sarah and myself in the show notes. You can learn even more about Sarah and her work at S Diringer consulting.com link in the description.
00:54:06:17 – 00:54:27:01
Agent Palmer
The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:54:27:06 – 00:54:35:04
Unknown
You.
00:54:35:09 – 00:54:53:07
Unknown
See?
00:54:53:11 – 00:55:01:14
Unknown
Me?
00:55:01:19 – 00:55:03:33
Agent Palmer
All right. Sarah, do you have one final question for me?
00:55:03:33 – 00:55:25:03
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. So we when we met, I was so excited that there were other Jews in the family. Okay. And I’m just so curious about the experience of growing up in a family that is, like, interfaith. You know, that has a Jewish. Well, kind of. Yeah. So, so asterisk that.
00:55:25:05 – 00:55:42:39
Agent Palmer
You’re kind of right because dad converted so technically I grew up my, my immediate household was Jewish. But it was interfaith in that any time we went to Baltimore to visit the grandparents, it was for Christmas.
00:55:42:44 – 00:55:43:05
Sarah Diringer
00:55:44:24 – 00:56:16:34
Agent Palmer
And so, it was, it wasn’t I think, because everybody talked about it. Right. Nobody we didn’t hide anything. And I think this is, I don’t know how much of a shift thing this is in terms of talking about like talking to the cousins and finding out like, but like I was surprised at for for a moment to aside I was surprised that like, we talked about finances, like my parents would tell me like, oh, you need to save money.
00:56:16:34 – 00:56:53:32
Agent Palmer
You’re like, oh, this is what, like that? I so for me, religion and finances and politics, these things were talked about openly at the table like so. I understood, different things in different perspectives. So I could say maybe it was just the normal thing because, well, getting both sides because then I got to a point where, like, I graduated from college and I would talk to friends about finances and they would be like, how do you know this?
00:56:53:36 – 00:57:22:37
Agent Palmer
Because obviously you don’t learn about some of this stuff in high school or college or any of that stuff. And so for me, the interfaith part of it was just kind of like, well, I just get to learn a little bit more about different things, but we always talk to like we didn’t hide about it, which is why I bring up the finances thing, because I talk to friends who will occasionally rely on me for information about finances, just because their parents never talked about it.
00:57:22:37 – 00:57:23:51
Sarah Diringer
It was it.
00:57:23:51 – 00:57:54:32
Agent Palmer
Was. I don’t want to say it was like off limits, but it felt maybe it felt off limits because they didn’t talk about it. And for me, religion was the same thing. We talked about it like I, one of the things, I guess to go back to your initial question about me was that while I grew up Jewish and I had a bar mitzvah, and then I was lied to about confirmation because I thought bar mitzvah was the end of my going to synagogue.
00:57:54:32 – 00:58:26:03
Agent Palmer
And then they were like, no, but you’re going to get confirmed to. And I was like, okay, fine, whatever. But when I’m in the lead up to me, taking my semester abroad, in Jerusalem or in Israel, the second half of my junior year of high school, in the lead up to that, I had written some things, about religion, just basically trying to find my way.
00:58:26:08 – 00:58:59:38
Agent Palmer
I wasn’t all in on Judaism, as a religion. I was, if anything, I was all in on Judaism as a culture. Okay. And so. And which is, by the way, still very much the case, but it’s one of those things that will always kind of be in my head is, you know, I and I talked about it on an episode of this podcast about like, I wrote some stuff and there was a, you know, an an educator who wrote some stuff and fairly anti-Semitic things, but they didn’t know it.
00:58:59:38 – 00:59:22:29
Agent Palmer
They were just being naively whatever. And my rabbi, whom my parents called because, of course you do when you’re kids. Right. And weird religious stuff. He basically sat down and before I, I still remember, like in the lead up to him offering me this semester abroad, he said, you just seem like you’re searching.
00:59:22:34 – 00:59:23:01
Sarah Diringer
00:59:23:06 – 00:59:55:26
Agent Palmer
And I think that to answer your initial question, having been exposed to Catholicism and like the other, like a non-Jewish denomination of any kind, and knowing the family history of like, well, there’s two Christmases and there’s two Easters, and just knowing all that, I think I was always looking for something spiritual that I couldn’t quite grasp.
00:59:55:30 – 00:59:55:46
Sarah Diringer
00:59:56:11 – 01:00:21:19
Agent Palmer
And having grown up in two different kinds of Judaism, like we, we were conservative, then we moved to a place where we could only be reformed, which was fine. And even even as reform goes, like I was still kind of only half in, spiritually. And so I think I was always looking and I think part of it was because, again, we talked about it, we were open about it like we we didn’t hide any of that stuff.
01:00:21:23 – 01:00:31:53
Agent Palmer
I mean, I don’t know about you, but like, I will I got in trouble third grade telling people that Santa Claus isn’t real. Like, that was.
01:00:31:58 – 01:00:33:23
Sarah Diringer
Like, hey.
01:00:33:28 – 01:00:52:25
Agent Palmer
You know, like I, I said that somewhere, and I got scolded and, you know, and just you, you know, I got I got to talking to like, you can’t you can’t say that they need to find that out. And that’s that’s a different thing. That’s not for you to say. Right. But it’s very much that, like, I think when you’re open and I.
01:00:52:28 – 01:00:52:55
Sarah Diringer
Am.
01:00:53:10 – 01:01:32:56
Agent Palmer
I don’t think I needed it, like spelled out for me, but it kind of one of the reasons that like, like even Steph, like Steph did learn stuff about finance that just they never spoke about it. And I know finance is probably maybe more so than religion. Like, you don’t talk about money. And to me, maybe because of the way I grew up and because of my parents and the family as a whole, like, I’m, I’m, I’m going to teach my kid, I’m going to talk to my kid about religion and spirituality and finances in the same breath.
01:01:32:56 – 01:02:03:57
Agent Palmer
Like it, it matters because it shouldn’t be, uncomfortable. And I think that’s kind of the thing I learned. That’s why I bring finances into it, because, you know, for me, it almost feels like in some of those my, you know, they’re my friends, like they’re basically family. But in some of those situations, like if they had questioned the family, religion would have been more comfortable for their parents than asking about a loan.
01:02:04:02 – 01:02:04:24
Sarah Diringer
And, you know, I.
01:02:04:24 – 01:02:12:37
Agent Palmer
Mean, so, like, it became a taboo that they just weren’t allowed to talk about. And I just keep thinking like, no, just it.
01:02:12:42 – 01:02:13:29
Sarah Diringer
It’s it’s.
01:02:13:29 – 01:02:21:55
Agent Palmer
Part of life. You need to learn this. And I would prefer you learn it because we talked about it then just discovered.
01:02:21:59 – 01:02:22:55
Sarah Diringer
That you.
01:02:22:55 – 01:02:49:18
Agent Palmer
Need this thing and so that the, the religion part was kind of like that same thing was like, all right. We just we talked about it. It’s part of it. Like I think I, I still I’m still envious of people who are truly spiritually whatever. Almost to a point like where we started this, where I said, like, I’m jealous of you because you chose environmental science and you stuck with it like, I’m I’m not searching as much.
01:02:49:23 – 01:02:49:41
Sarah Diringer
01:02:49:46 – 01:02:56:46
Agent Palmer
But I’m still culturally Jewish. A lot more than I am spiritually. So like I’m still kind of searching.
01:02:56:51 – 01:02:57:18
Sarah Diringer
Yeah.
01:02:57:18 – 01:03:13:35
Agent Palmer
And so there’s that part of it’s, it’s like I, I am slightly envious of that. But then again there was a time a short window when we talk about what you want to do, where my answer was Rabbi.
01:03:13:39 – 01:03:14:54
Sarah Diringer
That’s that’s a, there’s a.
01:03:15:02 – 01:03:20:37
Agent Palmer
There’s an alternate universe where you married into a family with a rabbi, not just another Jew.
01:03:20:37 – 01:03:43:59
Sarah Diringer
So, yeah, I mean, that’s so interesting. I, I, I actually think I’ve become more connected to being Jewish by marrying someone who’s Catholic. Okay. Because, well, one, there are some benefits where, like, we, I always get Passover. Like I don’t have to split that holiday candy. Andy’s family always get, you know, like Christmas is his holiday. Like we don’t have to split who’s.
01:03:44:08 – 01:04:03:37
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Who gets what. But I also think, like, it’s been interesting. There’s like, pieces of Catholicism that like, remind me of why I like Judaism. Also like, in a good way that there are sort of these, like, rituals and like things that you’ve done since you were a kid and like, you know, you question sort of why you do them, but also it’s just nice that you do the same thing every year, right?
01:04:03:39 – 01:04:19:50
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Like there. So it’s been interesting just experiencing another religion in order to like be more inquisitive about Judaism itself and like what it is that I like and what are the things that I am like, hey, I don’t know about that. Like, well, how about so?
01:04:19:59 – 01:04:42:51
Agent Palmer
So let me ask then, how was your first Christmas like? Because I it’s so it wasn’t it wasn’t with Steph. It was with an ex-girlfriend who I was living with. But that was my first. Like, there’s a Christmas tree in the house. That’s weird. Like. And it was. And Steph is, is not religious, but she’s all in on Christmas.
01:04:42:51 – 01:05:09:19
Agent Palmer
Right. Like, not for the religious stuff but for the for the tradition of it. And so now it’s like, all right, well now there’s always a Christmas tree in the house and it’s for you and me who spent many decades with like maybe a Hanukkah bush is a joke. You don’t bring a plant into the house. Like, that’s not not one that’s not in a pot, right?
01:05:09:19 – 01:05:13:11
Agent Palmer
Like it’s just so awkward. How was your first Christmas?
01:05:13:16 – 01:05:32:50
Sarah Diringer
You know? Yeah, it was it was awkward because I just felt like for so long, like, as a kid, I felt really left out that we didn’t have a Christmas tree like everyone else got to decorate their houses and their. I mean, they’re pretty. They’re objectively pretty. Yeah. I’m like, so, you know, all these conversations I remember as a kid of like, well, we don’t have a Christmas tree because we’re Jewish.
01:05:32:50 – 01:05:55:26
Sarah Diringer
And, you know, we celebrate Hanukkah and we do all these other things and, you know, and then so then to kind of turn around and be like, oh, we’re getting a Christmas tree. And at first I felt a little bit like, well, Andy can have a Christmas tree. It just like happens to be in our house. Yeah. And over time though, like I do have ornaments, I think the first ornament Andy got me was a little Grinch though, so, you know, that’s the first person who I am.
01:05:55:35 – 01:06:04:10
Agent Palmer
Yeah. The first ornament Stef got me was a little Iron Man, and I think it was kind of the same thing. It’s like play cards. You a little bit like this one’s yours.
01:06:04:15 – 01:06:05:00
Sarah Diringer
Yeah.
01:06:05:05 – 01:06:07:33
Agent Palmer
You can put it on the tree. Yeah.
01:06:07:33 – 01:06:26:03
Sarah Diringer
It’s yours. Yeah. There’s just funny, you know, there’s just funny traditions that, like, you learn over time and like, we weren’t a big present giving family when we were kids, you know, we would get, like, something for Hanukkah. Like, sort of like, you know, it was like, oh, the stereotypical, like, socks or something. We get white pencils.
01:06:26:08 – 01:06:28:17
Agent Palmer
Paper, all the school supplies.
01:06:28:17 – 01:06:46:27
Sarah Diringer
There you go. Yeah, I remember, I, you know, I got a Furby once from my grandparents, I get it, but like, it wasn’t, it was just we weren’t big gift giving family. And so it just that I think has been the biggest shift for me is to sort of figure out how I feel about presents. See, we like,
01:06:46:32 – 01:07:08:11
Agent Palmer
I feel like we. Oh, there was always one big one in our family, but, like. Yeah. By the same token, Andy and I got the same gift from our grandfather. Every year. We got a Hesse truck. Like, he gave it to all the grandkids without fail. And my collections going right to junior. And he can play with all of them, I don’t care.
01:07:08:16 – 01:07:12:38
Sarah Diringer
But did you also get a did you also get coins? Was that maybe that’s a different.
01:07:12:44 – 01:07:34:04
Agent Palmer
That’s a well, that’s but that’s a separate thing. Oh. That was also from our, our granddad. Yeah. And those traditions are kind of like they’re, they’re holiday adjacent. But there’s also a part of me that feels like even if the holiday was stricken from the world, like it never day, we would still have gotten some kind of it still would.
01:07:34:04 – 01:07:34:44
Sarah Diringer
Have been a tradition.
01:07:34:44 – 01:07:36:10
Agent Palmer
Of something. Right. Like.
01:07:36:10 – 01:07:36:38
Sarah Diringer
Yeah.
01:07:36:42 – 01:08:06:10
Agent Palmer
And so that’s kind of exciting. But it also goes to, well, you’re an Orioles fan now because you married it like and that’s again, it’s another one of those just traditions that just whatever. And the thing that you and I maybe have in common more than anything else is that like having married non-Jews, like the melding of traditions is that’s everything from here on out, like it’s.
01:08:06:14 – 01:08:10:24
Agent Palmer
Yeah. How do you want to incorporate it for the next generation.
01:08:10:29 – 01:08:10:59
Sarah Diringer
01:08:11:08 – 01:08:33:41
Agent Palmer
And what are you doing. I mean I, I basically I is he going to get bar mitzvah. No probably not. But like if he wants to, like if we get to a point where we can have that conversation, that conversation can be, have I not. There’s no very I guess laissez faire like whatever you want kid. Like it’s your the world is your oyster.
01:08:33:41 – 01:08:35:22
Agent Palmer
Like.
01:08:35:27 – 01:08:57:33
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. Have at it. Yeah it is I mean it is like, I do love learning. It is sort of the, religion or like holiday adjacent things are the things I like, love learning. I think one of the I think it was actually it was Covid that I and you know, we were all trying to figure out how are we going to bring joy into our lives in any way, shape or form.
01:08:57:37 – 01:09:14:24
Sarah Diringer
And Easter that year, I decided that I would like, do like set up an Easter egg hunt just for Andy, like in the backyard. So I bought a bunch of plastic eggs and put them out. And Andy goes around and looks for them and there’s nothing in them. And he was like, did you know that you’re supposed to like, put things in the Easter eggs?
01:09:14:24 – 01:09:40:36
Sarah Diringer
And I was like, no, like, why would I know that? And so I just like, put empty plastic eggs all over the yard. And then he was like, well, how many more are there? And I was like, I don’t know. I didn’t count them. So I just like had like thrown plastic Easter eggs and it just it was these like things you grow up with being so normal and so whatever that like he, he had like the look of shock on his face of that I didn’t put anything in them.
01:09:40:37 – 01:09:43:53
Sarah Diringer
But I was like, I have never done an Easter egg hunt.
01:09:43:57 – 01:10:03:56
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I think it’s wonderful because I, I, I only know it because in college, I was in charge of student activities. So like, we ran them and, somebody was like, we have to count them before you put them out. I was like, what do you like? We’ll see, you know, if they’re all found or not. And I was like, well, why does it matter?
01:10:04:00 – 01:10:08:37
Agent Palmer
Like, I don’t know, I don’t I don’t get what the fuck here. Like it’s fine. Whatever. Like, yeah, yeah.
01:10:08:37 – 01:10:09:42
Sarah Diringer
You find them eventually.
01:10:09:44 – 01:10:12:53
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Exact. Are you still are you still finding them?
01:10:12:58 – 01:10:32:36
Sarah Diringer
Everyone smile. And actually, Andy proposed with an Easter egg because he found one. I had hid one in his, like, bike backpack, and we went for a bike ride. And so he had pretended that he was just finding it that day on the bike ride, but actually, he had, like, put the engagement inside of it, which was very sweet.
01:10:32:36 – 01:10:41:05
Sarah Diringer
Yeah. So it has become sort of a thing that I just like put them randomly around the house. But I still haven’t been putting anything in them.
01:10:41:10 – 01:10:43:50
Sarah Diringer
Now seems like a lot of work. I don’t know, it is.
01:10:43:50 – 01:10:44:46
Agent Palmer
It probably is.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).