Episode 162 features Greg Costikyan a game industry veteran who’s published games for a variety of platforms from the table to the phone as well as more than a few novels.
You’ll hear us discuss that plus his career, a little bit of process, plus adaptability, teaching, cooking, and much much more…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Early Internet Offers Practical Fantasy in Magic of the Plains: By the Sword (A Book Review)
Other Links
A Good Documentary is more than Rare or Recovered Footage
Bogner’s building an exciting world starting with The Dreamweaver
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:01 – 00:00:22:48
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com. A good documentary is more than rare or recovered footage. Bogner is building an exciting world, starting with the Dreamweaver and trading music may be more our liner notes than Palmer files, but it’s still fun to do. This is The Palmer Files episode 162 with Greg Costikyan, a game industry veteran who’s published games for a variety of platforms, from the table to the phone, as well as more than a few novels.
00:00:22:57 – 00:01:03:09
Agent Palmer
You’ll hear us discuss that, plus his career, a little about process, plus adaptability, teaching, cooking, and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:03:14 – 00:01:22:53
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 162nd episode is Greg Costikyan. I first was introduced to Greg through reading one of his early novels while writing a review for that book, magic of the Plains by the sword. I discovered that he is much more than just an author, actually, all authors are just more than one single thing.
00:01:22:53 – 00:01:48:20
Agent Palmer
But in this instance, Greg is a well-traveled game designer from the table to the internet, from MMO to mobile, from the West Coast to his home in New York City, with many stops in between. You’ll hear us discuss how he got his start in game design at an early age, adaptability, and a little bit about the current and future state of gaming, plus how game design scratch is the same as creative writing cooking, why he decided to get a geophysics degree, and much, much more.
00:01:48:27 – 00:02:07:13
Agent Palmer
But first, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or afterward, you can find all related ways to contact Greg and myself in the show notes. You can see all of Greg’s work and games, consulting, writing, blogs, and more at cost A.com that’s cost Icom. Don’t forget you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com.
00:02:07:13 – 00:02:17:55
Agent Palmer
And of course email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:18:00 – 00:02:40:29
Agent Palmer
Greg, you’ve been in gaming for a very long time and you’ve been in digital gaming, but you started before then. So I just want to ask, like, were you always adaptable? Because looking at the games you’ve done and as much as gaming has changed in all that time, you’ve just kind of stayed there in that fun little gaming pocket.
00:02:40:31 – 00:03:03:45
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, I mean, obviously the I’ve worked on a lot of different styles of games. I mean, I got started as a board game developer, moved to tabletop, science fiction and fantasy games. And then since then I’ve done online only games, PC games, mobile games, Facebook games. And the last project that I worked on was an MMO.
00:03:03:50 – 00:03:27:50
Greg Costikyan
And just because the technology changes and the market changes so much over time that I think if you want to keep doing this, you need to be adaptable. Now, that being said, I know some people, who are more game designers and have stuck with designing games. Okay. And, you know, that’s that’s fine. But I, I would be bored if I had to do that.
00:03:27:57 – 00:03:28:15
Greg Costikyan
So.
00:03:28:19 – 00:03:34:04
Agent Palmer
All right, so I, I want to tell you a story about how I came to know you.
00:03:34:09 – 00:03:34:51
Greg Costikyan
And you,
00:03:34:56 – 00:03:59:08
Agent Palmer
I saw one of your books because it had a prodigy. Yeah, label on it. And I am from, the the. I guess, it’s one of those weird things. I didn’t know how small prodigy was until I started talking to it with about it with other people. And they were like, wait, what’s that?
00:03:59:13 – 00:04:23:06
Greg Costikyan
So. Yeah. Well, so I mean, prodigy can’t be sort of Genie or the, commercial online services, that predated opening the internet to, commercial use. Yes. So, you know, prodigy had, I don’t know, 4 or 5 million members. So not that tiny, really? No, I’m obviously tiny by comparison to anything on the internet today.
00:04:23:06 – 00:04:26:08
Greg Costikyan
But, you know, like.
00:04:26:13 – 00:04:39:00
Agent Palmer
Was there, a time, as we’ve talked about, like, with some of the, you know, moved to digital where you were like, I have to be there. I want to be there or like.
00:04:39:04 – 00:04:45:37
Greg Costikyan
It’s more like, I need to make a living. Okay? And it’s harder, a lot harder to do that in tabletop.
00:04:45:42 – 00:04:58:09
Agent Palmer
Okay. And what was. I mean, let’s go back for a moment. Was gaming always the thing, like, is this, you know, if I go back to ten year old Greg, like, did, did you want to be in gaming?
00:04:58:13 – 00:05:26:53
Greg Costikyan
So ten year old Greg certainly played a lot of board games. You know, with, with family. When I was 14. So there was a, tabletop for him. Publisher also did, science fiction and, called SBI or Simulations Publications, I think, which was located on 23rd Street, in New York. Okay. And, they had open playtests on Friday nights so you could come in and play games under development.
00:05:26:58 – 00:05:49:42
Greg Costikyan
And that was good for the company because they got free playtesting, and it was good for those of us who were fans of the company, because we didn’t feel like we were, participating in the development of these games. So I basically hung out at SBI and made, nuisance of myself. And then when I was actually when I was 14, Jim Dunn, again, the head of the company, hired me to help assemble games in the back room and ship them.
00:05:49:46 – 00:06:15:15
Greg Costikyan
And he didn’t actually even premium cash. He paid me in company scrip that I could take to the front desk and exchange for copies of the game for the publisher. Okay. And, eventually, of course, I had everything they published and started selling the script to other playtesters at like $0.80 on the dollar, at which point Dunigan said, well, maybe I should pay the minimum wage.
00:06:15:20 – 00:06:21:54
Agent Palmer
That sounds like the best job for anyone of that age.
00:06:21:54 – 00:06:43:31
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, well, I, I loved it. You know, I was a weird company in many ways, but, just this was fun. And so at 16, they put me on the design staff primarily as a gofer, like making copies of, game maps and, you know, typing up people’s changes, rules, that kind of thing. But my first game was actually published when I was 16 was a terrible game.
00:06:43:36 – 00:07:13:58
Greg Costikyan
It was called Super Charge, which is the British name for the operation, super charged with the British name in the Battle of Alamein. And it was published as, part of a four pack of four different games based on different battles of North Africa, during the Second World War. And then I continued doing work, for SBI, both like in summers, but also, you know, I would design stuff while I was in college and ship them off to publishers.
00:07:14:03 – 00:07:32:22
Agent Palmer
So you did go to school because there’s a part of me listening to this, your journey where I’m just like, well, if I’m you, if I put myself in your shoes, I’ve already made it. I’m working for the I’m working in gaming. I don’t I don’t need anything. Or was it like, all right, I should probably go to school.
00:07:32:22 – 00:07:34:03
Agent Palmer
I continue this.
00:07:34:08 – 00:07:49:33
Greg Costikyan
Well, but also, I mean, okay, so I have a degree in geophysics from, Brown University. Okay. And, you know, as a science fiction fan, the idea of learning about science and taking some AP courses and that kind of thing, that was highly appealing.
00:07:49:37 – 00:07:50:08
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:07:50:13 – 00:08:15:59
Greg Costikyan
Now my my friend Eric Goldberg is one of my oldest friends and, I’ve worked with him for different companies now. Did not do that. He never went to college. And yet somehow he has, gotten himself into a position where, I mean, he co-founded two companies, and, you know, highly plugged into the VC world and, advisors, venture funded startups in the mobile game space.
00:08:16:03 – 00:08:24:11
Greg Costikyan
So, you know, it’s certainly possible to do it without going to college. But I think, you know, I had fun in college, right? I’m sure you’re not frequented at all.
00:08:24:23 – 00:08:47:10
Agent Palmer
That I mean, that’s that’s what it’s for. I will say though, like, geophysics is, like, I, I tapped out at physics, right. Like I that was personally like, I was just like, I understand it, I get it. It’s the nature of how everything works in the world. I don’t know that I can continue to learn any more than this.
00:08:47:15 – 00:09:07:46
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. So part of the reason I got to be a degree is, Brown, is quite prominent in planetary geology. Okay. So, you know, the geology of Mars and Venus and whatever. And I was fascinated by that. And, I also kind of figured at some point, I mean, I when I started, I was a history major, but at some point it’s like, man, fuck this.
00:09:07:51 – 00:09:14:48
Greg Costikyan
Let’s do something more rigorous, okay? And in a classic Greek. So I’m not that I’ve ever used that degree for anything, right?
00:09:14:53 – 00:09:17:49
Agent Palmer
It doesn’t help with the gaming at all.
00:09:17:54 – 00:09:29:54
Greg Costikyan
Well, to some degree, like coming up with landforms for an MMO, it helps to learn something about geology. But yeah, it’s not immediately useful.
00:09:30:07 – 00:09:46:11
Agent Palmer
Okay, I just I just imagine that, you know, my I’ll put my communications degree up against your geophysics degree. And just to say that most people would say you’re much more hirable than I am.
00:09:46:16 – 00:10:10:02
Greg Costikyan
Well, maybe, I’m so geologists typically work either for academia or for resource extraction companies. Okay. Mining companies, oil companies. And so, so if I were like to send my resume to Exxon today, they would look at it and say, game designer, game designer, game designer, hipster. This guy is not not someone we want to hire.
00:10:10:07 – 00:10:12:53
Agent Palmer
Okay. Now though, but back then.
00:10:12:58 – 00:10:16:58
Greg Costikyan
Back then, if I wanted to pursue that, it would have been feasible.
00:10:17:03 – 00:10:39:19
Agent Palmer
And I, I know that you do a lot of speaking and you do some teaching. So when people find out that you or you know, they’ve heard you speak like what’s the or when they meet you and they know you’re a game designer, what’s the one question like what’s your comment? Most common question that you know, people ask.
00:10:39:24 – 00:11:05:53
Greg Costikyan
So I think most people are kind of impressed. Oh okay. So I’m a member of the, excellent Food co-op, which is kind of a member owned supermarket. Okay. But it has a work requirement. You have to spend, two hours and 45 minutes every six weeks working in the call. And I check my website as well, because every adult member in the household has to do that.
00:11:05:57 – 00:11:31:01
Greg Costikyan
And I mostly work in the dairy cooler, you know, shoving cartons of milk onto the shelves, that kind of thing. Yeah. But my unsat supervisor is, a black woman who’s, like, a supermarket professional and, she’s a gamer, and we talk about games, but I it’s like, I don’t think she really has any idea what a game it was like, but I think most people come.
00:11:31:06 – 00:11:32:53
Greg Costikyan
Okay. So yeah.
00:11:32:58 – 00:11:55:14
Agent Palmer
I guess I just, I mean, maybe it’s because at, at a, I mean, I was at a game store in Honesdale at a time when, the developer West End was close enough that like, we’d, they would, they would come in and we would play test games and it didn’t happen often, and I, I don’t even think that game store’s there anymore.
00:11:55:21 – 00:12:00:07
Agent Palmer
So it’s really only an eight year period. And I was lucky enough to be there at that time.
00:12:00:12 – 00:12:05:33
Greg Costikyan
And yeah, that’s one of the reasons I got, laid off was,
00:12:05:38 – 00:12:07:33
Agent Palmer
Okay. Well, I’m. I’m sorry.
00:12:07:38 – 00:12:16:14
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, no. That’s fine. The owner of the company wanted to move to, Pardon my French, East Pennsylvania.
00:12:16:16 – 00:12:19:49
Agent Palmer
Yeah. It’s really like I grew up there. There’s not much there.
00:12:19:54 – 00:12:23:53
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, well, but, you know, I’m a new Yorker. That’s like. No, I’m not moving. Okay. Yeah.
00:12:24:07 – 00:12:50:05
Agent Palmer
Well, Yeah, but but in playtesting the games, we got to meet with designers. So I think maybe I take for granted whatever I learned from those conversations. And they go, well, how come everybody doesn’t know? Like there’s designers behind all these games and that there’s a lot put into them? That just seemed foreign to me. But I guess we’re in a place where we take a lot for granted.
00:12:50:10 – 00:13:13:42
Greg Costikyan
Well, but the other thing to think about is, people by and large, know how books get made, and they know how movie to get made. Okay. So much that’s been written about them. Yeah, but most of the ways in which game design or development in general is depicted in media is ludicrous. Crap. Like, Neil Stephenson’s book really?
00:13:13:47 – 00:13:36:35
Greg Costikyan
That’s fucking okay. Wimbledon is nothing like that. I can recommend a two books that I think do quite well in terms of, depicting what it’s actually like to be involved in, game development. One of them is Austin Grossman’s You okay? And the other one is, which stands for is vaporware. And now, both of these go off in some pretty weird directions.
00:13:36:35 – 00:13:59:07
Greg Costikyan
Like in you, there is A.I. that has been built into games since the 80s, and it’s taking over the world. And in vaporware, there was a game that is canceled and doesn’t want to be canceled. And. Okay, so but nonetheless, the kind of day to day descriptions of what goes on with the game company and both books, I think are pretty, pretty cool, pretty good.
00:13:59:16 – 00:14:26:26
Agent Palmer
Okay. I mean, it’s good to know that even there there is something more about that that works from a game perspective because from everything I’ve read and I haven’t read a lot, but I read some stuff about like the, the ID software guys. Right. And unfortunately, like, the story’s still interesting, but unfortunately it makes it seem no different than Facebook.
00:14:26:26 – 00:14:32:04
Agent Palmer
Like, you know what I mean? Like, there’s this for and maybe it’s maybe some general.
00:14:32:09 – 00:14:33:12
Greg Costikyan
A friend of mine, by the way, but.
00:14:33:12 – 00:14:54:15
Agent Palmer
Oh, okay, I said it, but that’s the way it reads, right? Like that story reads the same way that Facebook is. It’s just we’re going to try stuff. We’re going to stay up late. We’re going to code. But I, I found myself going like, but I want to know a little bit more about like, I don’t and the code’s interesting, but how did you come up with the rest?
00:14:54:20 – 00:15:02:16
Agent Palmer
And I think that’s kind of that’s a lot of game design is more of answering those questions.
00:15:02:29 – 00:15:32:47
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. So I interviewed unsuccessfully for teaching job at Indiana University earlier this year. And one of the things I told them is I think they call their degree, a degree in game design, okay. And they they do a pretty good job in terms of not only teaching, design practice with also, teaching the kids how to use them real, how to use the, exposing them to art tools and so forth and so on.
00:15:32:52 – 00:15:56:48
Greg Costikyan
But I, I told them, I really think you’re doing your students a disservice by calling this a degree of game design and the reason for that. So when I was at, played them in San Francisco ten years ago, I was on a team of 50 people, okay, up to 50 people, probably more than half were artists, 20 of them engineers.
00:15:56:52 – 00:16:00:20
Greg Costikyan
We have four people in the design.
00:16:00:25 – 00:16:12:01
Greg Costikyan
You know, so I think you would be much better off saying this is a degree in game development with a concentration in engineering or a concentration in design or a concentration, that kind of thing.
00:16:12:06 – 00:16:48:52
Agent Palmer
Now, does the, I mean, I guess you start with a basis from roleplaying and tabletop in a way that it feels like everybody should. And I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe that’s just me from the outside. I’m not the biggest, like, game. I enjoy games, but like, I my, my digital footprint is very small. So I’m saying this from maybe a place of, like, I never really got past Diablo one, right?
00:16:48:52 – 00:17:09:39
Agent Palmer
Like there is a stop, but I just think there must have been a benefit for you in moving to the digital space, having had this, like. Well, I’ve, I’ve done it with no tools. I mean, when you’re writing it, you know, like there’s there is no engine. You are the engine.
00:17:09:44 – 00:17:12:17
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. Well my input is Microsoft Word.
00:17:12:22 – 00:17:13:24
Agent Palmer
But, yeah.
00:17:13:29 – 00:17:38:04
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, yeah. So I think there are real benefits to coming out of a tabletop background for designers, but I think there are some problems as well. Okay. So one of the benefits is a typical computer game is going to take 2 or 3 years to develop. Okay. So you know, before you have a half dozen titles under your, your belt, you’re already middle aged.
00:17:38:09 – 00:17:43:18
Greg Costikyan
Whereas in tabletop you can be, you know, designing and prototyping a game every three months.
00:17:43:27 – 00:17:47:12
Agent Palmer
Is it really that quick? Sure. I guess as quick as you can. Right.
00:17:47:22 – 00:18:05:21
Greg Costikyan
Well, no, no, I mean, development is always iterative, right. So yes, I can write something in a week or two with them. It’s probably we’re going to need to play it a lot. Okay. I’m going to be happy with how the game is. But at SBI we did develop games very rapidly. I would not try doing it at that time.
00:18:05:23 – 00:18:28:19
Greg Costikyan
Patents today, because I think a little more time and effort in development is is probably beneficial. Yeah. Okay. So then the downside though is that there’s so many things you think about when you’re developing a video games like UI pacing the world for players. All of these things are not something you necessarily get out of a into a tabletop.
00:18:28:19 – 00:18:28:28
Greg Costikyan
Right?
00:18:28:40 – 00:18:42:17
Agent Palmer
Okay. What do you do? You still play? I mean, do you still get a chance to play? Do you enjoy gaming still? I mean, I know a lot of people that when they’re behind the scenes of something, you know, it’s like, well, that’s my day job.
00:18:42:17 – 00:19:05:25
Greg Costikyan
I don’t want to, you know, you know, okay. So I still play a lot of board games. Okay. Mostly you spell games. My wife wanted to play terraforming words tonight, which is probably not going to happen, but I also play quite a lot of different games. I’m more interested at this point in, narratively oriented digital game for them and like transfection, that kind of thing.
00:19:05:32 – 00:19:19:13
Greg Costikyan
Okay, so I’ve actually been writing reviews pretty frequently for Adventure gamers.com, not all of them about point and click adventures, but all of them. You look into a strong narrative spine in some fashion.
00:19:19:18 – 00:19:44:41
Agent Palmer
I, I think that and I, I did enjoy during the pandemic I, I enjoyed Minecraft, but there is a part of me that goes, but for the love of God, give me a game with an end. And I like again, I enjoy Minecraft, but I think that narrative nature of storytelling is also like, it’s okay for things to end.
00:19:44:46 – 00:19:55:39
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I think that these some of these open world in Minecraft, I maybe gets a little more slack than others, but there are plenty of open world that just you could just go forever, you know.
00:19:55:44 – 00:20:13:29
Greg Costikyan
Even something like, you know, the Warcraft, right? Yeah. There was no ending. No, I, I actually when I was doing, free to play mobile games, I tried to, tried to get a number of different companies that I work with to develop a game that actually had an and.
00:20:13:34 – 00:20:15:32
Agent Palmer
There’s not a lot of money in that, though.
00:20:15:36 – 00:20:40:15
Greg Costikyan
Well, so my approach was to say, you know, it’s actually more motivating for the player to know that this is going to come to a conclusion, like, okay, you know, like I can win or lose and I might pitch was essentially, well, we’ll give you back half the hard currency you bought from us when you sign up for, you know, the next game and okay to play the game again.
00:20:40:20 – 00:20:44:30
Greg Costikyan
But I wasn’t able to persuade anybody that, this made financial sense.
00:20:44:35 – 00:21:09:10
Agent Palmer
So, I mean, I think it’s a I think it’s a great idea, if nothing else. I mean, I, I think that the idea of and I’ve, I can’t remember any of them. I guess that just shows you that I was playing forgetful mobile games, but I remember a few of them that I just you get addicted to for a week or two or maybe a month, and then all of a sudden you play a little less or something happens and you never get back to it.
00:21:09:10 – 00:21:21:18
Agent Palmer
Your, your, your some of the intent, the street, your streak ends, right, or your bonus ends. And then all of a sudden you go like, well, why do I still have this on my phone? I haven’t played this in forever or whatever.
00:21:21:23 – 00:21:48:12
Greg Costikyan
And so, so one of the things, we talked about and in principle games a lot are, two week retention, six week retention, six month retention. Okay. Because this is not the only key performance indicator, but the longer you can retain someone, the more likely you are to get them to open their wallet. Yes. And quite often, you know, I mean, the data provided by these games is enormous.
00:21:48:16 – 00:22:05:49
Greg Costikyan
And quite often you’re looking at things and saying, well, there’s a big drop off here in week four, and what is making that happen? And what can we do to improve the experience in week four to retain people, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But it is true that true for these are kind of games never ending.
00:22:05:54 – 00:22:31:32
Greg Costikyan
Unless you are you really adore it. You probably will drop off at some point. I played a lot of, heroes charge. Okay. Which is a free to play mobile RPG, with a pretty, pretty interesting design. And one of my guild mates at one point said, well, I’ve maxed out everything. So I’m going to quit and restart again from level one.
00:22:31:37 – 00:22:36:11
Greg Costikyan
No, this guy was like, clearly really in love with that game. Yes. You know.
00:22:36:15 – 00:22:56:08
Agent Palmer
That’s I don’t know that I’ve, I mean, I know people that are still playing Pokemon. I think that might be the one mobile game I know that has revived, but I think some of them are just playing it because it became habit. I don’t even some of them are just it’s a it’s like a chore. And they still do it, which I guess good on them.
00:22:56:17 – 00:23:01:48
Agent Palmer
I it must be good game design if people feel like it’s a chore. But keep doing it.
00:23:01:53 – 00:23:21:41
Greg Costikyan
That’s. Well, one of the reasons I stopped playing heroes charge is, if you want to do all of the daily tasks and use up all of your energy available to make, it’s going to take you late into the game an hour and a half to two hours out of your day, every day, every day. And it was like, what?
00:23:21:43 – 00:23:24:36
Greg Costikyan
No, no, no, I’ll go find another game.
00:23:24:48 – 00:23:52:22
Agent Palmer
Okay. Now, obviously. Are you, happy with the mobile experience? I mean, obviously you played that game and you enjoyed that game, but, I just find, like, personally, I like I like a keyboard, I like a mouse or, you know, tabletop, but, like, the phone, it seems, I, I don’t know, I never fell in love with the phone as a gaming device.
00:23:52:26 – 00:24:13:04
Greg Costikyan
Okay. Well, just so you know, in 1999, I founded one of the first North American mobile gaming startups. Okay? And we were not dealing with smartphones. We’re dealing with, you know. Yeah. And I worked for Nokia for a while as well. So I’ve had a lot of experience to mobile. I actually think the phone is a pretty good game device.
00:24:13:09 – 00:24:25:46
Greg Costikyan
I don’t think there’s all that much difference between a tap interface and a mouse and keyboard interface. Okay, about the only thing about mobile UI that I dislike is there is no mouse ever, right?
00:24:25:48 – 00:24:27:54
Agent Palmer
Oh yeah. There’s no tooltips. Yeah.
00:24:27:58 – 00:24:47:05
Greg Costikyan
No tooltips. Yeah. Okay. But one of the things I did while I was working on, Wars Reach is I tried to ensure that every time I designed a system, I’d mapped out how it would work with the console controller, how it would work with mouse and keyboard, and how much.
00:24:47:10 – 00:24:48:19
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:24:48:24 – 00:25:13:10
Greg Costikyan
Because we we knew we wanted to support all three of those things eventually. And I have seen a lot of games like that at least, Star Trek in my little, sucks, console. It was designed originally for mouse and keyboard, and they tried to retro fit, you know, I mean, most tend to have lots of different controls and templates as well.
00:25:13:14 – 00:25:17:46
Greg Costikyan
And mapping that all to a shoe, a console controller. It’s not the easiest thing.
00:25:17:51 – 00:25:40:52
Agent Palmer
So you’ve mentioned that you’ve founded some things and you’ve been in startups like is there like and obviously you got your degree in geophysics, but do you, do you just have a head for business or like, you know, entrepreneurship? Is that like a or is it just, what’s the word? Is it just kind of like it comes with the job?
00:25:40:52 – 00:25:44:41
Agent Palmer
Like, if I want to go out and do this, I have to found my own.
00:25:44:46 – 00:26:01:55
Greg Costikyan
Well, I mean, part of the reason I’ve been to that mobile game company is I was living in New York, I had kids, I was divorced, and, you know, they they got to see their mom, too. So I didn’t feel like I could move out of New York. Okay. But New York is not exactly a hotbed of game development.
00:26:02:04 – 00:26:07:06
Greg Costikyan
So it’s like, well, I should found the company. Okay. Yeah.
00:26:07:11 – 00:26:08:45
Agent Palmer
I’ll be. And I’ll bring it to me.
00:26:08:50 – 00:26:20:38
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. And also, I had been doing some consulting to, model handset manufacturers about the future of games on, phones, and I could see that there was an opportunity there.
00:26:20:42 – 00:26:21:19
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:26:21:23 – 00:26:21:50
Greg Costikyan
So.
00:26:21:50 – 00:26:28:46
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but did you find it easy to jump in and be like, all right, I’m, I’m I’m a founder now.
00:26:28:51 – 00:26:48:33
Greg Costikyan
Well, I mean, one of the things I did is I hooked in my friend, Eric Goldberg, whose, game development shop was not doing well. And but so we, you know, we got together and we had a team from. Let’s start. Okay. And he had one of the things about Eric is he has, I guess it’s no longer a Rolodex, but like, he knows everybody.
00:26:48:43 – 00:26:58:41
Greg Costikyan
Okay? He’s produces a lot. So, you know, contacts with investors and so forth. I don’t think I could have done the company without his participation. So.
00:26:58:46 – 00:27:10:34
Agent Palmer
And and then obviously you’ve also written books. You’re also a published author. So was this like an offshoot of like I had an idea while making a game or I.
00:27:10:34 – 00:27:15:08
Greg Costikyan
Don’t know, it’s like when I was a kid, that’s what I wanted to do. I wanted to write science fiction.
00:27:15:13 – 00:27:15:47
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:27:15:58 – 00:27:18:33
Greg Costikyan
So it’s like, okay.
00:27:18:38 – 00:27:29:47
Agent Palmer
But but wanting to do it and actually doing it are vast steps. Most people. Okay. Was it was it just a matter of finding time, like.
00:27:30:00 – 00:27:53:12
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. So I mean, I write pretty well. One of the things I say is you have to write a quarter million words of drivel before you can write publishable prose. Okay. But as a teenager, I publish lots of fanzines, so, like, I already got my drivel that way. Oh, nice. The one thing, though, I find, is that designing games and writing fiction scratch the same itch.
00:27:53:17 – 00:28:22:00
Greg Costikyan
Okay, so, you know, I’m working, obviously game designer. I’m probably not writing at the same time. Okay. And, the my first three books were basically written when I was a househusband, taking care of young kids. So I wasn’t designing games at that point. And then when the kids were in there were older, I would take all this stuff every year, go to my dad’s house in the Hamptons and then over to camp and spend that time with him.
00:28:22:05 – 00:28:25:47
Greg Costikyan
So that was another way to square that circle.
00:28:25:51 – 00:28:37:58
Agent Palmer
And do you find, I know it scratches the same itch, but do you find the process is similar to are you just sitting down and writing, whether it’s, you know, a game or process or.
00:28:38:03 – 00:29:06:03
Greg Costikyan
There are some similarities. So one of the things about writing fiction is that it’s actually a lot harder than segmenting the words to, again, because rather than, you know, just going down and you know what makes logical sense here? It’s like, I have to be creative and figure out how to do this. When designing a game. There was a similar kind of process in that it’s like, okay, I want to enable hiring a mercenary for my game.
00:29:06:03 – 00:29:16:08
Greg Costikyan
What kind of systems do I need to support that? What can we borrow from systems we’re already planning to implement? And, and that kind of stuff. So, yeah.
00:29:16:12 – 00:29:21:17
Agent Palmer
Is there is there anything you haven’t done? Like, I feel like you’ve done. Well, I’ve.
00:29:21:22 – 00:29:26:40
Greg Costikyan
Never run a marathon. Well.
00:29:26:45 – 00:29:46:43
Agent Palmer
No, I mean within mediums like did you did did you want to get into TV movies, like. Because that seems like the only part you haven’t touched. I mean, you’ve done everything in gaming, it seems like. And you’ve you’ve obviously done some publishing, with the written word, you know, do you want to see it on the stage, on the screen, on the.
00:29:46:48 – 00:30:05:26
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. I don’t actually have a lot of interest in film and television. I took a little caution screen reading at one point, but it’s like, I don’t know. Also, New York is probably not the best place to do that for me. I’m the. Yeah, moving to LA is no money. So are you a long term plan?
00:30:05:30 – 00:30:10:16
Agent Palmer
But you’re in New York, New Yorker. Like, there’s no there was nowhere else in the world you’d rather be.
00:30:10:16 – 00:30:30:37
Greg Costikyan
Well, I actually, So I lived in San Francisco for three years, and I love that. Okay. And if I, you know, had a job offer in San Francisco, I would happily go back there. I also, quite like living in Boulder, Colorado for a while. Okay. Yeah. You know, but sure, New York is I.
00:30:30:41 – 00:30:31:52
Greg Costikyan
I do like New York.
00:30:31:56 – 00:30:42:23
Agent Palmer
Is there, a thing that, like you know, you you’ve you you are a teacher or you have been a teacher? I know you,
00:30:42:28 – 00:30:57:42
Greg Costikyan
I have given lectures at universities on a number of occasions, but, I actually did run a, two week intensive course, in mobile game development at, in unique places.
00:30:57:46 – 00:31:02:46
Agent Palmer
So is, is teaching, like, the next thing is that.
00:31:02:50 – 00:31:20:30
Greg Costikyan
Well, maybe, we’ll see. I mean, given my age and the state of the market in the games industry at the moment, although I continue to apply for jobs, I’m not real hopeful that I’m going to wind up in the desired position again.
00:31:20:35 – 00:31:39:10
Agent Palmer
It it it. I will say though, it’s it’s it it’s weird that like for as much as the games industry feels like it’s shrinking. And it and I obviously this is from afar. I only, you know, read what I read.
00:31:39:15 – 00:31:43:26
Greg Costikyan
You know, 10% of all game developers have been laid off within the last two years.
00:31:43:30 – 00:31:48:08
Agent Palmer
Okay. So it it it is actually shrinking. That’s not a feeling. That’s just,
00:31:48:13 – 00:32:00:25
Greg Costikyan
But, you know, these things go in cycles. And I think part of what’s going on here. Oh, okay. So part of it was there was a huge increase in revenue during Covid. Yes. Because what the hell are you going to do other than play games.
00:32:00:25 – 00:32:02:27
Agent Palmer
Yeah, absolutely. Makes perfect.
00:32:02:27 – 00:32:24:45
Greg Costikyan
Sense. Yeah. So but and then a lot of developers, you know, hire bunch of people and thought this was going to go on forever. And, you know, that’s no longer the case. The market is down a bit, since then. But I also think that on the part of executives, there is the kind of ludicrous notion that AI is going to replace design and art, and they don’t need to retain these people.
00:32:24:45 – 00:32:46:33
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No, I look, I’m a blogger and a podcaster, and I have friends that do writing and, you know, graphic design and art and we we talk about AI all the time and how it’s just a tool. It’s not creative. It’s not in order to do anything it does, it needs to stand on the shoulders of all the rest of us and well.
00:32:46:38 – 00:32:59:03
Greg Costikyan
But the other thing about it is like, can you get animal prompt to an eye? Yes, but it probably is going to need to be hand crafted from there to make it, you know, more.
00:32:59:07 – 00:33:06:55
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it’s a lot. It’s the first it’s the first, gut pass of the marble, slab. And then you need the.
00:33:07:00 – 00:33:29:54
Greg Costikyan
Nonetheless, this does kind of suggest that rather than needing 20 artists, maybe I need ten, because some of the the work is done. Done out of the gate. Okay. But I yeah, I do think and I also think that there are some things that it’s going to be really useful for, for example, abuse mitigation in online communities.
00:33:30:07 – 00:33:51:34
Agent Palmer
Okay. Yeah. That that’s that’s yeah. The some of the dirty work we’ll say. Yeah. But I, I know you said you still play board games and I know, and I, it’s been hard because it’s just me, my wife and a friend of mine who’s 45 minutes away. So we don’t really get to play board games.
00:33:51:34 – 00:34:09:55
Agent Palmer
All that often. We don’t have that that kind of big social circle for it. And there are a lot of games that don’t work for, for, for too. Sure. But have you kind of been playing the whole time? And if you have been, have you enjoyed this resurgence of board games over the.
00:34:09:55 – 00:34:33:05
Greg Costikyan
Last, you know? Yeah, I am absolutely. So I don’t know, some months ago, I went to a board game, meet up in a bar in Greenwich Village. And the thing that really struck me is like, here I am, an old world war gamer, and there are all these, like 20 or 30 somethings here who are playing board games like, this is cool.
00:34:33:10 – 00:34:35:08
Greg Costikyan
You know, this has become mainstream now.
00:34:35:12 – 00:34:52:25
Agent Palmer
It’s there’s nothing. I mean, we still play like card games. We still play Magic The Gathering as an example. And I think, you know, as a, as an aside to board games because they’re not some of them are two player, but some of them are just unfortunately not.
00:34:52:30 – 00:35:06:12
Greg Costikyan
Well, so one of the things is during Covid, my wife and I searched out a whole bunch of, you know, more games that work well with two players. Okay, perfect for that reason because we’re kind of isolated from the rest of the world, right?
00:35:06:24 – 00:35:29:13
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but there is there is nothing quite like. I mean, I guess maybe some people can get it with the switch where you’re sitting next to each other on the couch playing the same game. But second to that, it is a tabletop game of some kind where you can look across the table at your opponent or your collaborator, depending on the game.
00:35:29:18 – 00:35:55:23
Greg Costikyan
Although I will note that there has been a real surge of digital games that are co-op play or like social discovery games. Which, you know, Mafia Werewolf was the original version. And my daughter actually plays a bunch of these games. And, you know, she’s chatting on discord with her, her friends, all their they’re playing a little bit.
00:35:55:28 – 00:36:01:42
Greg Costikyan
So it’s not quite the same as sitting across the table from someone. But there is, more social experience. Yeah.
00:36:01:42 – 00:36:21:45
Agent Palmer
And is that I guess, is that still at the core, like when you’re designing? Is the social experience, whether it’s digital or tabletop? Is that I don’t I mean, obviously you need to create a game and a story and rules, but like, do you think about the social experience.
00:36:21:59 – 00:36:22:20
Greg Costikyan
00:36:22:28 – 00:36:23:10
Agent Palmer
Separately?
00:36:23:19 – 00:36:53:50
Greg Costikyan
Well, I’m not sure or. Yes, in a way. So for in, in many digital games, the social experience is considered kind of the metagame. So, you got a guild system. Okay. On top of the game, you’ve got friends list, you know, all these kinds of things. And it’s also it’s something that developers of, online games know is that you retain people better if they form those kind of social connections within them.
00:36:53:54 – 00:37:00:25
Greg Costikyan
Okay. So there’s you know, it’s not only this is fun, but it’s also like there are good business reasons to want to do this.
00:37:00:30 – 00:37:03:48
Agent Palmer
I made friends, I’m going to go hang out with my friends again.
00:37:03:53 – 00:37:15:14
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. Okay. Well, or even, my guild is getting together on a read on Thursday, and, like, I feel obliged to help them out, but that country.
00:37:15:18 – 00:37:27:36
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Okay. So there’s, I mean, I guess it’s just recreating that kind of, you know, there’s a game night. I should go because everybody else I know is going.
00:37:27:41 – 00:37:28:57
Greg Costikyan
Right.
00:37:29:02 – 00:37:41:13
Agent Palmer
We’ve we’ve brought the physical and real life into the digital world. In a way. So when you’re when you’re not playing games and you’re not writing, what what do you do?
00:37:41:17 – 00:37:54:59
Greg Costikyan
Well, I read a lot. Also, I have been, crafted by some computer for 25 years. So, like, he goes in and also, I basically cook for my family. I have for four years. So, you.
00:37:54:59 – 00:38:12:10
Agent Palmer
Know, I, you and I are in the same boat. I’ve been cooking for my family here. I think I think Steph moved in when we were dating, found out I could cook, and I, I don’t think she she’s I think she’s been like, oh, you could do that. You can just keep doing that.
00:38:12:15 – 00:38:13:08
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:13:13 – 00:38:19:50
Agent Palmer
I well that’s a separate thing but I, I have to ask like did you always, do you want to, do you like it like, I mean.
00:38:19:55 – 00:38:20:42
Greg Costikyan
Do we like cooking.
00:38:20:44 – 00:38:21:28
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:38:21:32 – 00:38:22:11
Greg Costikyan
Yeah.
00:38:22:16 – 00:38:25:27
Agent Palmer
Okay. What’s your dish, or just anything.
00:38:25:32 – 00:38:42:01
Greg Costikyan
No, I mean, I really like, like, French food. Italian. Japanese. Chinese. Indian. I have a Indian vegetarian cookbook I like quite a lot, but it’s also pretty elaborate. So it takes a while to do those things. Yeah. No, I try to be real.
00:38:42:06 – 00:38:46:17
Agent Palmer
So you just like new things? Like. I mean, it.
00:38:46:21 – 00:38:58:37
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, well, I experimenting is is is interesting. Sure. I mean, like, I do have standard things that I cook a lot like, meatloaf, pork chops as well.
00:38:58:37 – 00:39:11:58
Agent Palmer
I’m just pulling together a general thread of, like, between the gaming and the writing and the cooking. I mean, you know, it seems like, you know, you’re up for anything once.
00:39:12:02 – 00:39:35:59
Greg Costikyan
You know, well. Right. I’ve always been a champion of innovation and game. Game development. Because I think, you know. Yeah, well, I gave a speech at GDC in 2005, in which I said, that we had seen in the Spanish a burst of innovation and creativity in the games industry over the last 20 years.
00:39:36:12 – 00:40:04:32
Greg Costikyan
But that’s over now. And the reason I said it was over is weak, but it’s what Ralph Carson refers to as Moore’s wall, which is that as power in computing increases, game developers have to match the graphics capabilities of new machines, and therefore the costs rise and rise and rise. And that this is still true. I mean, Triple-A games these days can cost hundreds of millions and billions to.
00:40:04:36 – 00:40:29:55
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, which is ridiculous. But one of the disadvantages of that is people are can be much more reluctant to take a design risk when they’re investing that kind of money on the table. Okay. And therefore creativity comes to an end now, in 2005, I think I was right. But what’s changed since then is the rise of steam and the ability for people developing at much lower budgets, to reach an audience.
00:40:30:00 – 00:40:37:21
Greg Costikyan
Okay. So, you know, since then, I think we’ve seen a real burst of innovation and creativity in indie games.
00:40:37:25 – 00:40:42:43
Agent Palmer
So, yeah, I mean, it’s is it’s indie games. The future. Like, is that really like, I mean.
00:40:42:47 – 00:41:00:59
Greg Costikyan
I look it’s one future, I mean it to. Okay. So today mobile games actually make more money than PC and console okay. But on the other hand, the mobile game market itself is kind of literally at the moment, like the same ten titles tend to be top grossing, year after year.
00:41:01:04 – 00:41:07:15
Agent Palmer
And they’ve got the secret sauce to get people to come back and get through that six month wall, clearly.
00:41:07:20 – 00:41:41:18
Greg Costikyan
But well, the other thing though is they have the data on their players behavior and they have tuned their game to provide maximal revenues that the real problem with making a model game work at the moment is the cost of user acquisition. Okay. And the thing is that somebody like, supercell can acquire users for any of their games, probably more efficiently than you can because they have a decade or more of data on how users behave in a mobile environment.
00:41:41:23 – 00:41:46:56
Greg Costikyan
But yeah, mobile game development is is a really hard road at home.
00:41:47:01 – 00:42:04:24
Agent Palmer
So let me let me ask then, if I gave you a blank check tonight and said, you know, do what you want, like, are you are you developing a game or are you writing a book or are you teaching a class? Like, what do you.
00:42:04:29 – 00:42:31:21
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, no, I, I would probably I actually I’m, involved in advising a fellow, who’s actually of Nigerian extraction works, Life of Strange Games and wants to found a developer of nerd oriented games in New York. And, you know, if I had $1 million to burn, I would probably go to them and say, hey, let’s do this, okay?
00:42:31:26 – 00:42:41:11
Agent Palmer
All right. I mean, so so you’re still all in on, game development. Is there a do you have more novels coming like it is like, oh, maybe.
00:42:41:16 – 00:42:50:13
Greg Costikyan
Maybe I there is an idea I have for a novel that I want to get to, but on the other hand, so much work. Can I find the time? I’ll tell you the idea if you want.
00:42:50:26 – 00:42:52:25
Agent Palmer
Well, no, no, I you could say.
00:42:52:26 – 00:43:09:08
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. No, no no, no, it’s for the idea is that instead of Hogwarts, a British public school with a single type of magic, there is a New York City public school that specializes in magic.
00:43:09:21 – 00:43:09:55
Agent Palmer
I like it.
00:43:09:58 – 00:43:25:21
Greg Costikyan
But of course, given the polyglot and immigrant nature of the, New York City population, there’s like Haitian voodoo, Jewish, Kabbalah, you know, there’s all these different styles of magic going on at the same time.
00:43:25:33 – 00:43:36:12
Agent Palmer
I got to tell you, I, I like it, but if if you’re going to come out with like, 12 more games, then I’m not going to be like, I can’t believe you didn’t write that book.
00:43:36:26 – 00:43:38:14
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, yeah, it’s just an idea.
00:43:38:27 – 00:43:58:34
Agent Palmer
So do you. Are you, are you always on to the next thing? Like, I feel like. I mean, we’ve only been targeted for a little bit, and I feel like you and I are kind of, like, in with that, I don’t know, creative oeuvre of, like. Well, I finish that onto the next one, like, let’s let’s move on to whatever, whatever.
00:43:58:48 – 00:44:02:02
Agent Palmer
It doesn’t matter what it is, but let’s move on to that next thing.
00:44:02:07 – 00:44:26:19
Greg Costikyan
To some degree, yes. One of the reasons I went to work for Ralph on the, on Sports Reach is I had never done an MMO before, and but I played a lot of them, and I thought that was interesting, and I, I just spent seven years doing free to play multiplayer.
00:44:26:24 – 00:44:49:33
Agent Palmer
Not many people know what goes into making a game. What does a game designer do in unveiling a little of the industry? One person’s perspective at a time, perhaps we can lift the mists that shroud not just game design, but book publishing as well. Something I’ll cover with a guest in a not too distant future. I hope that this conversation has enabled you to at least understand a small portion of what goes into the games you play.
00:44:49:37 – 00:45:10:08
Agent Palmer
For those curious, since we recorded this, I know Greg was pleased to announce that he is working with three clips, a startup creating advanced war style indie game as lead designer. And so he continues on with what’s Next, but how he got there and his passion for creating, designing and playing games, as well as telling stories are things to be admired.
00:45:10:13 – 00:45:36:41
Agent Palmer
His is a career of games, but you don’t have to have that career in games to also enjoy playing games. Video games, board games, card games. Gaming is equal to the escape we get from film and television, music and books, and like those other mediums, you can enjoy them with others. The amount of social interaction is completely up to you, but the escape that’s important no matter who you are with or what you do.
00:45:36:46 – 00:45:58:06
Agent Palmer
So what game or games have you been playing? And just exactly when was your last game night? If it’s been too long, you’re probably overdue. And if it’s been never, what are you waiting for? Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 162. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion.
00:45:58:19 – 00:46:22:41
Agent Palmer
You can find all related ways to contact Greg and myself in the show notes. You can see all of Greg’s work at Costco Comm that’s cost Icom the music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email and comments can be sent to this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember your home for all things. Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:46:22:46 – 00:46:37:24
Unknown
And you?
00:46:37:29 – 00:46:55:25
Unknown
See?
00:46:55:30 – 00:46:59:55
Unknown
Me?
00:47:00:00 – 00:47:03:09
Unknown
See?
00:47:03:14 – 00:47:05:54
Greg Costikyan
What is it that made you such a geek?
00:47:05:59 – 00:47:28:13
Agent Palmer
Oh, you know what? So it’s interesting. It might be, that that was who I was. Surround. I know that’s a lie, because I was I was going to say it’s who I was surrounding with, but who I was hanging out with was also some outcast. But not all of them. We all, I guess all of them eventually evolved into geeks.
00:47:28:13 – 00:48:03:11
Agent Palmer
That we were not all geeks. Originally, you know, I came to D&D and Magic the Gathering literally in the same summer, summer camp, which is a that’s a heady month for learning those two games and enjoying both of them. In the span of four weeks. And then I think, you know, I was already a reader at that point, but that kind of sent me into like, well, where can I find other people to roll dice with and shuffle cards with?
00:48:03:16 – 00:48:26:57
Agent Palmer
And so that and at the same time, you know, I was hanging out with people that were also writers. Now, look, we’re talking high school, so we’re writing very bad poetry and very cliches. But, you know, many of us and obviously I still have the blog and a lot of them, a few of them are still writing to this day.
00:48:27:01 – 00:48:47:27
Agent Palmer
So I think part of it is that kind of shared. We’re all outcasts, experience. Look, I mean, maybe it was destiny. Like, I’m in third grade. I had to get glasses. And I think that, like, if you look the part, you know, you’re my.
00:48:47:31 – 00:48:48:49
Greg Costikyan
You know, I look.
00:48:48:54 – 00:49:09:55
Agent Palmer
It fits, right. Like I’m not. I’m not upset about it. And I think that this is who I am. But I definitely think that there were some times when, you know, maybe, maybe, maybe at a certain point in my early, young adulthood, if you ask this question, I would have been like, I’m not. I’m not a kid.
00:49:10:00 – 00:49:18:03
Agent Palmer
But now I’m like, no, like, I’m not. I’m not going to hide that. Of course, of course I am. It’s completely fine. Right? But it’s well.
00:49:18:07 – 00:50:00:10
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, I’ll tell you two stories, okay. One of them is my wife was an art graduate from Yale and herself as an art check. And it’s like, no, I’m not going to play TFT. That’s for nerdy guys. But we were at these second Star Trek convention in New York City in 1973, 1974. I never met her, but she was there at the same time that I was, because one of her friends had made a quarter costume and needed help navigating around the floor, because instead of crawling around so that and, Karen later on actually became a game developer.
00:50:00:10 – 00:50:21:01
Greg Costikyan
She worked for RG interactive on a number of titles. And my girlfriend before Karen, there was a place on Bleecker Street when I was a teenager called The Battleground, where you could come in and spend a few bucks an hour to play games with people. Okay, tabletop, at that point, and down at the other end of the street was CBGB’s.
00:50:21:05 – 00:50:22:38
Agent Palmer
Okay?
00:50:22:43 – 00:50:32:35
Greg Costikyan
And so my previous girlfriend and I figured out at one point that we were within a few blocks of each other when we were both teenagers, but obviously she was much cooler than I was.
00:50:32:40 – 00:50:50:53
Agent Palmer
Look, I think that that that might be then and now, who knows? I mean, you know, things have changed. Things have changed. I mean, even just in the last I mean, since the turn of the century, being a geek went from being a marginalized thing to being something that was now is it?
00:50:50:58 – 00:50:53:15
Greg Costikyan
Yeah. Yeah. No, no, you’re going to be the Mexican bread, right?
00:50:53:17 – 00:51:17:43
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s aspirational now. It’s it’s kind of, I it’s not something I would have ever expected in my lifetime. I, I, I didn’t think that I would necessarily say marginalized, but I didn’t think that there would be media, like the Big Bang theory that would celebrate, the in-jokes that we had for 20 years that, like, four of us knew.
00:51:17:48 – 00:51:43:29
Greg Costikyan
Yeah, yeah. So when I was 18, my high school had just gone cold coed, but it was like 80% male. And my interests were science fiction and more and more games, which are, you know, no, women are more interesting about it. Yeah. So yeah, I do appreciate the geek culture is now more widespread.
00:51:43:29 – 00:52:09:25
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it’s it’s true. No, I mean I still it it’s funny to me that I play Magic The Gathering with my wife because I, I was at a gaming store that was, almost 100. The, the owner’s wife was the only female. And like, anytime anybody under the age of 20 walked in, that was female. Like, it was definitely like every movie scene where, like, the jukebox hits and everybody’s like, what’s cool?
00:52:09:30 – 00:52:17:51
Agent Palmer
Why she here? Like, it’s just, yeah, I think I think we’ve turned a corner from that, but I, I always have that in the back of my head of like that. I remember that.
00:52:17:51 – 00:52:31:53
Greg Costikyan
So when my oldest child was quite small, I taught them to play, Magic The Gathering and they could not read the okay, but they learned what the cards did. Sure. Yeah.
00:52:31:58 – 00:53:00:07
Agent Palmer
That’s that’s, Yeah. I, and that’s when, like me, my my my very, like my most recent, which dates this by about a decade, but my most recent, like, Angry Man thing is I, I had kept my magic cards, but I had stopped playing because I didn’t have anybody around me. And then I came back to the game at a certain point when there was a lot of thing, like, it’s like any game development, right?
00:53:00:07 – 00:53:24:05
Agent Palmer
Like you come back to if, if any game is still going on, it’s changed. And I went wait what’s that. And they’re like oh it’s a card from like you’re back in your day from like 20 years ago I was like yeah but I don’t know. The are like this is like the muscle memory of knowing a card just on what you remember.
00:53:24:11 – 00:53:28:50
Agent Palmer
Right. Like the art being and having nothing to do with what it does.
00:53:28:55 – 00:53:47:18
Greg Costikyan
So I want to show you something. This is a, tin of, for one pick, which is like an expensive single malt scotch. Yep. And inside it, magic cards. Magic cards.
00:53:47:22 – 00:53:59:16
Agent Palmer
That might be the best. I may I may have to that this. This might be the best reason to buy my father some expensive, whiskey just so I can get the, the tin in.