Episode 172 features the return of Jason Pilling, who’s back because last time we barely scratched the surface for his return to music and I wanted to learn more.
We start discussing his career and instinct for responsibility and providing for his family, continue on with self confidence or a lack there of, and then dive into marketing and passion, creation, strategy, collaboration, motivation, and much much more…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Jason Pilling Music – DIY Electric Upright Bass Build
Other Links
Ode to a Snack Probably* Gone Forever
Cabal (the novel) is reason enough to pick up Cabal (the book)
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:26:29
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com. Ode to a snack that is probably gone forever. Cabal. The novel is reason enough to pick up the cabal, the book, and aside from what was mentioned in last episode. I’m not sure what Bill could recommend that would broaden my reading horizons more, but I’m sure he’ll think of something. This is The Palmer Files episode 172 with the return of Jason Pilling, who’s back because last time we barely scratched the surface for his return to music and I wanted to learn more.
00:00:26:40 – 00:00:42:48
Agent Palmer
We start discussing his career and instinct for responsibility and providing for his family, continue on with self-confidence or lack thereof, and then dive into marketing and passion, creation, strategy, collaboration, motivation and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:00:42:53 – 00:01:14:17
Jason Pilling
My first salary at the bank was more than my dad made. You know, as a 25 year experience teacher and I just thought, this is ridiculous. Professional intent and having enough self-awareness to think about whether or not you’re doing a good job. In my opinion, that is like 80% of the battle of being good at something. My wife was not the person who’d lack self-confidence.
00:01:14:28 – 00:01:22:41
Jason Pilling
She knew she was awesome. I think since I’ve quit my job, I’ve never worked harder.
00:01:22:46 – 00:01:42:31
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 172nd episode is The Return of Jason Pilling. Not too long ago, I released episode 166. Jason Pilling Has the Music, which was a great episode about music and inspiration and how he got his start, but we glossed over his return to music.
00:01:42:31 – 00:02:03:16
Agent Palmer
But he’s back now to color in some of the gaps and shading the details of that story. We’re going to tangent a bit, but this episode is a more detailed look at how Jason got his groove back, where he is now, and where he’s heading. But before we get there, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen there afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact Jason and myself in the show notes.
00:02:03:21 – 00:02:25:18
Agent Palmer
You can see all of Jason’s stuff at Jason pilling.com, or look up Jason Pilling or Yung Dukes on Spotify or SoundCloud or YouTube. Don’t forget, you can see all of my ratings and ratings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:25:23 – 00:02:43:43
Agent Palmer
All right Jason, we’re going to start right here. You were bored at work and you were like, I, I think I want to be calm. You want to make an album, you want to become a music producer? I mean, these are all things that you are right now. You’ve put out album, you’re a record producer, but you’re bored at work.
00:02:43:43 – 00:02:49:29
Agent Palmer
What is the what is the first motivating factor of like, I want to do something else.
00:02:49:34 – 00:03:14:37
Jason Pilling
Well, I got into, you know, the work that I was doing just out of a sort of an instinct of responsibility. I just, I knew I wanted to marry my wife and, you know, be a good family person. And that meant being a stable human being who came home and wasn’t running around the world on the weekends.
00:03:14:37 – 00:03:16:52
Jason Pilling
And, you know, paying the mortgage.
00:03:16:57 – 00:03:19:52
Agent Palmer
Ready, steady, steady income to pay the mortgage to.
00:03:19:52 – 00:03:27:09
Jason Pilling
Yeah, yeah. So I started, you know, my banking career strictly for the money.
00:03:27:14 – 00:03:28:32
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:03:28:37 – 00:04:15:28
Jason Pilling
And also, you know, I was, I’d set on the previous that, you know, when I started making the album, it was my peak self-confidence. And that I think that’s an important part of the, the story arc, because I was not at all self-confident in high school. And I think that’s, you know, that’s pretty common for sort of the introverted nerd that you just kind of feel like you have no idea how to manage yourself socially, and you can’t sort of create the opportunities for yourself that other people seem to be able to do for themselves.
00:04:15:33 – 00:04:16:18
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:04:16:23 – 00:04:38:25
Jason Pilling
And also, I think that, you know, my family were all pretty good, you know, sort of talented multidisciplinary people. And I never really felt like I stood out like I thought I was, I guess I thought I was more average than I was.
00:04:38:36 – 00:04:43:14
Agent Palmer
I mean, that’s but that’s, that’s kind of the standard, like within your own house, you know, there’s.
00:04:43:14 – 00:04:43:29
Jason Pilling
Yeah.
00:04:43:29 – 00:04:54:23
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Depending on what you do, unless you completely go a different direction than everybody else in the house, then you’re at a loss because your parents are older and have more experience.
00:04:54:23 – 00:05:07:34
Jason Pilling
Your, Yeah. So I just I had no ego. I had limited ambition except to marry this woman. I was very sure about that. Okay. That’s a pretty.
00:05:07:34 – 00:05:08:48
Agent Palmer
Good one to be sure about.
00:05:08:55 – 00:05:37:31
Jason Pilling
Yeah, and I did that. Still married. And obviously no regrets about that. But then, you know, I got into this banking thing thinking, and, you know, the first, the first thing that hit me that I don’t maybe I should clued in on because I was a math guy. Okay. And I got into banking just as, derivatives were becoming like a big thing.
00:05:37:36 – 00:06:00:12
Jason Pilling
And the banks were hiring anybody who could do calculus. And my first salary at the bank was more than my dad made, you know, as a 25 year experience teacher. And I just thought, this is ridiculous. Like, I don’t understand why this is true, but it didn’t really kind of hit me what was going on.
00:06:00:25 – 00:06:01:08
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:06:01:13 – 00:06:32:47
Jason Pilling
And then it turned out I was actually quite good at it. And then I ended up becoming a trader of derivatives. And then I ended up running like this really quite large, derivative trading program for like, one of the biggest Canadian financial companies. Like, I kid you not, I used to write emails saying we should trade this $700 million.
00:06:32:52 – 00:06:40:03
Agent Palmer
Does it, does it? I mean, now that you’re removed from it, does it feel like a different world, a different life?
00:06:40:08 – 00:06:41:26
Jason Pilling
I, I, you know, I got.
00:06:41:26 – 00:06:42:25
Agent Palmer
A real.
00:06:42:29 – 00:07:03:32
Jason Pilling
I got into it very gradually. Okay. Like when I, when I became a trader and then, you know, it would just kind of like showed over my shoulder, you know, I buy and sell $1 million of something, you know, it just started you just start to get kind of numb about it. And the truth is, you know, you buy and sell $1 million, you can just immediately sell it back.
00:07:03:32 – 00:07:24:42
Jason Pilling
But, you know, like the the consequences of that kind of tick in front of you at, you know, at a rate of $1,000 every few seconds. And, you know, like, you know, I was never a big deal as a trader. I became a big deal as a manager of a program. Okay? Because that was kind of it was a good at I was a mastermind, just kind of kind of personality.
00:07:24:47 – 00:07:52:32
Jason Pilling
And, you know, I was well suited to, like, lead a team that built a machine that did a thing. So that’s what I ended up doing. And they paid me quite well. And so that’s how my self confidence was injected. Okay. I just sort of gradually realize you. Oh, I can do stuff. And when I feel like I can do something, I can.
00:07:52:32 – 00:08:17:57
Jason Pilling
Then we’ll go do it. Now. And but you know, I was in my late 30s by the time that feeling hit me that I could just do stuff and be ambitious. I was not I didn’t like literally. I didn’t have self-confidence in my 20s at all. I thought I was a nobody and would always be a nobody. I mean, I’m still a nobody, to be clear.
00:08:17:57 – 00:08:18:58
Jason Pilling
But no.
00:08:19:03 – 00:08:44:10
Agent Palmer
I mean, but but I, I don’t I don’t know that you could say that because you do. I mean, but by the act of doing something, the act of like I and I so I, I have a blog and I’ve had a blog. I mean, jeez, the blog, it feels like it’s I don’t know, I think I think maybe the blog can vote now, I don’t know.
00:08:44:10 – 00:09:12:55
Agent Palmer
I’m not I’m not 20 yet with the blog, but I’m very close. And I’ve, you know, I write about what I want, and I don’t, you know, I don’t make a dime off of it, but it’s something I can do. And, I’ll, I’ll I’ll be the first to admit there’s no self-confidence there. I mean, I just, I, I’m comfortable writing and sharing, and I guess that takes a level of it, but it doesn’t, you know, I’m not, confident there.
00:09:13:00 – 00:09:38:31
Agent Palmer
But I do know in a small way that I’ve met some very interesting independent authors that I have, struck up relationships with. And I’ll get, you know, maybe an advanced copy of a book. And I get to read it and review it, and then I’ll work with them to time out my review in a way where, you know, it benefits them.
00:09:38:36 – 00:09:46:07
Agent Palmer
So they have a little bit of it’s a small blog, but they have a little bit of press that they can share. If somebody’s doing a thing. Right. And I, you.
00:09:46:07 – 00:09:50:08
Jason Pilling
Know, the internet matters. The internet searches and finds that.
00:09:50:13 – 00:10:22:05
Agent Palmer
And so, and then, you know, and that, that, that feels like it should garner some self-confidence. It doesn’t like there’s still there’s still very much the, the insecure, not to be cliche, but like writing poetry in my notebook and not sharing it with anybody person. That I’m still am, even though I’m able to write, I don’t know, a thousand words about a thing and share it right.
00:10:22:10 – 00:10:47:09
Agent Palmer
And then there’s this podcast, which kind of evolved out of it in, in a way. And I gotta tell you, I have the same kind of pulpit in a sense here that I do there. I don’t know which one’s more. I don’t know which one’s better. And it feel I treat them equally. And I treat them professionally.
00:10:47:13 – 00:11:11:36
Agent Palmer
None of this is. Well, it may sound half assed sometimes, because we’re having a good time. We’re having a conversation. Like, I treat it as a level of professional that I would want it to be at. I don’t want to put out anything that’s not, I don’t know that in any of this, just to just to bring it back to you.
00:11:11:41 – 00:11:29:58
Agent Palmer
I don’t know that I give myself any confidence anywhere other than, like, occasionally a friend will be like, you’re still doing that. Good for you. And then there’s occasionally the you’re still doing that. Why are you still doing that? And then it’s like, all right. So now okay, now I gotta find the.
00:11:30:05 – 00:11:55:54
Jason Pilling
Yeah. The second, the second one is, is troubling. The first one is the right instinct from your friend. Yeah. But I think, you know, the thing that I had, I guess somewhat uniquely, is that, you know, I was I was very successful. One thing once. And what that taught me was what it feels like to be really good at something.
00:11:55:59 – 00:12:00:50
Agent Palmer
Okay. And you want it for something you want to do now?
00:12:00:55 – 00:12:31:02
Jason Pilling
Yes. Okay. And the thing is, is that it doesn’t. Nothing, nothing about what I do changes when I go do music. Everything you just said a minute ago about, I just, you know, I had professional intent. Yeah. And stuff like that to me. Like, that’s, that’s the key to, like, professional intent and having enough self-awareness to think about whether or not you’re doing a good job, in my opinion.
00:12:31:02 – 00:12:55:21
Jason Pilling
And that is like 80% of the battle of being good at something. So, I mean, I’ve listened to your shows. I thought they were good. So I’ll give you that credit for, you know, you’ve you’ve achieved something. You’ve you know, you’ve done a good job of what you like. It shows that you had professional intent is what I’m getting at.
00:12:55:26 – 00:13:21:20
Jason Pilling
And so, you know, I come to music with this new point of view that if I make a plan to be good at something, I can execute on that plan and I will be good at it. And mind you, I thought about other things. I thought about going into politics to the world. Yeah, that that didn’t that didn’t go very far.
00:13:21:20 – 00:13:32:19
Jason Pilling
I got briefly involved in politics and it’s toxic. Yeah, yeah, toxic for good people. And I ran away and music was the thing I came back to.
00:13:32:23 – 00:13:46:24
Agent Palmer
So we’re talking, I guess to back to the initial question, you want to make an album or you want to produce music because obviously they go hand in hand. But what’s the initial thought?
00:13:46:29 – 00:13:58:22
Jason Pilling
Well, okay, so I quit my job. I was making good money. Okay. And the other I think the other part of the story is that my wife is an independent artist as well.
00:13:58:37 – 00:13:59:42
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:13:59:47 – 00:14:26:49
Jason Pilling
Throughout my entire marriage, I made good money and my wife made good money as well. But my wife made good money on a different arc. My wife just did. My wife was not the person who’d lack self-confidence. She knew she was awesome and just went and did stuff, okay, and people started to recognize how awesome she was. And then they started to pay her.
00:14:26:54 – 00:15:12:31
Jason Pilling
But for a few years she didn’t really get paid very much. But you’re well, you’re podcasters. She she started podcasting, CBC, like the national broadcaster of Canada. And at one point she was the producer of like three of the top ten podcasts in Canada or something like that. So she’s she’s done amazing things. And then she decided she wanted to write a book, and then she wrote a book, and she published a book, and it sold reasonably well for, like, she’s not a famous author, but she does a lot like on if we were to kind of like, proxy her success as an author to my successes in music, she’s, you know, somewhere
00:15:12:31 – 00:15:33:28
Jason Pilling
between 10 and 50 times my size. So she was inspiring to me in that, you know, I’m good enough to be married to this woman. If she can do it, I can do it. Plus, you know, I had sort of a self, confirmation that I was good at this other job, so she. And she encouraged me to quit the job as well.
00:15:33:32 – 00:15:55:57
Jason Pilling
She said, well, you know, what do you need the money for anymore? You just like, it’s like it’s like you’re just pursuing it out of fear that you might need it. And she’s like, you’re not. You’re not happy. You’re miserable in fact. And I think, you know, she she she remembered what I used to be like when I was, you know, thinking about art.
00:15:55:57 – 00:16:17:27
Jason Pilling
And she’s like this. That’s who you are. Just do it. And so I give her 100% credit for sort of saving me from myself. So she encouraged me to quit. I quit, and I just kind of like, had a business plan in my mind. I’m going to become a musician, okay? I’m going to break even in five years.
00:16:17:31 – 00:16:39:48
Agent Palmer
All right. Well, I want to stop for a second first here because we talked about your we’ll call it dead zone. Your your your black zone. Are you picking up? I mean, I know you’re not gigging, but are you still picking up a guitar? Are you still picking up a bass? Are you, you know, do you have calluses?
00:16:39:48 – 00:16:47:10
Agent Palmer
Are you still. Do you still have some playing chops through those years? Or is this just kind of no music?
00:16:47:24 – 00:17:03:07
Jason Pilling
No, I basically stopped. Well, I stopped dead for about ten years. I started to like, fiddle on the guitar for a few years before I quit. Like, actually the the album About the Office. Yeah, I dropped that album before I quit.
00:17:03:12 – 00:17:09:57
Agent Palmer
Okay, so you were starting to kind of noodle a bit and kind of get back.
00:17:10:02 – 00:17:17:53
Jason Pilling
Yeah, it was actually my pre-pandemic band that really convinced me because they were serious.
00:17:17:53 – 00:17:29:18
Agent Palmer
How did you. All right. But oh, I know, I know. We’ll we’ll get back to your story. But how do you go from not playing at all to having a pre pandemic band?
00:17:29:27 – 00:17:49:30
Jason Pilling
Well, you never really lose your skills per se. And plus I you know I started producing the music right. So I, I’d say you know the, the muscle memory all came back okay. Through the process of making that album. Like I basically finished making that album by the time I joined that band, that was that was actually kind of the process.
00:17:49:30 – 00:18:15:36
Jason Pilling
You know, I finished making the album and I thought, it’s time to join the band. Okay. So I went on and I joined the band and they really awakened, like, I just, I saw them trying to make it, and I had never been in a band that I thought was that serious about trying to make it before, and they just kind of showed me again, oh, I’m in this band.
00:18:15:36 – 00:18:23:59
Jason Pilling
When these guys are trying to make it, why can’t I try to make it? And, well, they haven’t made it either.
00:18:24:03 – 00:18:25:42
Agent Palmer
Of it till this fall. But but.
00:18:25:42 – 00:18:26:40
Jason Pilling
They were serious.
00:18:26:40 – 00:18:29:15
Agent Palmer
And they were trying. You can’t. Yeah. You’re not.
00:18:29:20 – 00:18:48:18
Jason Pilling
That is the key that they were trying and they were good. I you know I listen to their music now I’m not in the band anymore. But I listen to their music and I admire what they do there. They were good songwriters. They produced good songs. They’re. Their name is. The band name is Galax. Okay. It’s like relax with a G on it.
00:18:48:18 – 00:18:59:30
Jason Pilling
But if you go look up their music, it’s it’s interesting. It’s prog like kind of prog pop music, which is what I wanted to play when I was playing bass. I like playing kind of like weird stuff.
00:18:59:34 – 00:19:12:14
Agent Palmer
That’s hey, look, I mean, not everybody and I’m, I’m guilty of this, like, you can only play quarter notes and whole notes and, and the root note or.
00:19:12:24 – 00:19:13:04
Jason Pilling
The Or.
00:19:13:09 – 00:19:14:21
Agent Palmer
For so long, you know.
00:19:14:21 – 00:19:36:12
Jason Pilling
They’re so long. Yeah. Well, I play in an Americana band now where I, you know, I play more of the simple stuff. But, you know, the game there is just like, don’t make mistakes. Play, play it really perfect. But that’s also kind of like, you know, I built that upright bass and I play the upright bass. And it is so fun to play, even just like the simple stuff.
00:19:36:17 – 00:20:03:39
Jason Pilling
But the other key to that band is I love those guys. Just the time spent with them is priceless and I do it for free, and I’m happy to do it for free because I want to hang out with them. Yeah. And that that to me is like what drives, you know, any I think successful band forward at this point is there has to be that camaraderie on, on some level or another.
00:20:03:41 – 00:20:25:18
Jason Pilling
Like I got along great with the pre-pandemic band as well, and it’s just like we all were on this sort of mission that we all wanted to do, being in music, and we were much more different as, as people. But we got along on this mission and, you know, we still had the same fundamental values. We’re all just kind of like people that want to see the world as a better place kind of thing.
00:20:25:23 – 00:20:34:30
Jason Pilling
And I still I still talk to one of them all the time. He’s he’s my mastering engineer and occasionally he plays drums on my stuff.
00:20:34:35 – 00:20:48:30
Agent Palmer
So you are convinced you quit the job? You’ve got one album in your back pocket and you’re in a band, and now you have a lot more time on your hands.
00:20:48:34 – 00:20:50:00
Jason Pilling
Yeah.
00:20:50:04 – 00:20:58:03
Agent Palmer
First question before we move on, how did you deal with the having so much time on your hands?
00:20:58:08 – 00:21:25:27
Jason Pilling
I worked my ass off on music. Okay. The thing that I learned from the pre pandemic band is you gotta really work hard on the marketing. And I produced a lot of content. This is kind of like what I’m sort of known for a little bit in, like the, the local industry among my peers is like Jason produces a lot of content and that’s just me trying to self Mark.
00:21:25:29 – 00:21:58:34
Jason Pilling
And I thought that the time that I had would be my superpower when I, when I quit the job and I started to make music, I thought, okay, I’m, I’m already good at music. That’s not my problem. Okay? What I’m bad at is marketing. And so I worked so hard on trying to learn how to market myself. And just like many hours a week, I was, I think since I’ve quit my job, I’ve never worked harder.
00:21:58:39 – 00:22:12:01
Jason Pilling
It’s never stopped, until recently when I kind of hit a wall and had a little bit of a breakdown this last summer, but up until then, I just, like, worked constantly.
00:22:12:06 – 00:22:51:11
Agent Palmer
It it’s it’s I don’t know, because I, I come from marketing and I think, you know, for as hard as you worked, I can still maybe say this statement like, we can all still market ourselves better. It’s not necessarily about time or content, but we could all do better. I could promote this episode. I could have promoted this episode that you are hopefully listening to now more in more places or more often or, in a different way, or you know, whatever, whatever.
00:22:51:16 – 00:23:20:02
Agent Palmer
But one of the things, that I, I, and I don’t know how to feel about this because you’re, you’re a solo artist in a sense, you’re also, you know, within a community. So I feel like you’re a little helped. Then say, maybe be in my basement with. I don’t have a a blog sphere. Like, there would have been maybe 20 years ago.
00:23:20:17 – 00:23:25:29
Agent Palmer
And I know a few other podcasts, but they’re busy doing their thing.
00:23:25:33 – 00:23:29:15
Jason Pilling
That’s actually a trend by the way. But you can music but.
00:23:29:15 – 00:24:02:07
Agent Palmer
You almost need someone else because I, I yeah I don’t know I’ll, I’ll be the first to admit I don’t promote enough. But I can also confidently say if I was promoting enough this episode wouldn’t be happening. Some of those blog posts would be a little lackluster. Like, there’s there’s only so much energy that I have, and I spend more of it giving you a better blog post to read and a better podcast to listen to.
00:24:02:22 – 00:24:33:51
Agent Palmer
Then maybe the discoverability. And I’m hoping that there will be a word of mouth of some kind down the road that will bear me out on this. But I also know that this sadly, I don’t know if I’d want it to be my livelihood. And that’s a maybe different discussion for us to have. But since it’s not my livelihood, I feel like I can make a distinction and a distinct like, you know, turn and go.
00:24:33:51 – 00:24:35:41
Agent Palmer
I would rather put out something better.
00:24:35:50 – 00:24:36:21
Jason Pilling
Yeah.
00:24:36:21 – 00:24:37:15
Agent Palmer
Then promote it.
00:24:37:15 – 00:24:53:30
Jason Pilling
Well, I felt like I should have time to do both. I think that I completely agree with you when it’s kind of like it’s my side thing, then it should be focused entirely on the quality of the product and how that makes you feel.
00:24:53:35 – 00:24:55:03
Agent Palmer
But as your whole thing.
00:24:55:08 – 00:25:14:42
Jason Pilling
But I want I felt like, okay, I’m, I’m splitting my time sort of whatever down the middle. I’m gonna spend half my time making the thing. And I still have an entire another, you know, half of my life. Because, you know, my, my, my kids basically old enough, felt my my kid is helpful now my kid makes dinner and cleans up.
00:25:14:42 – 00:25:29:25
Jason Pilling
I don’t have to, you know, look after my kid anymore. So I have lots of time and lots of energy. It’s just like, how do I use it to reach my goals?
00:25:29:34 – 00:25:30:25
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:25:30:30 – 00:25:58:46
Jason Pilling
And I’m terrible. I I’ve tried everything about marketing. It is so hard, I, I, I to this day, I still don’t understand. I, I’ve tried multiple strategies and it’s it’s just been a struggle and you start to just feel like, well when I first started I legitimately thought, well, I’m just going to have a business plan. I’m just going to keep on trying stuff until something works, because I’ve got time to just go down the list and try them all.
00:25:58:46 – 00:26:29:48
Jason Pilling
Yep. And I have. I’ve tried them all and I can’t explain necessarily why they don’t work, except it’s just, you know, what do people really want from new music? And, and, you know, I think I think what I’ve learned over time is that I’ve dramatically overestimated the size of my market. I thought that the market of people who were looking for music like me was larger than it was.
00:26:29:52 – 00:26:42:35
Jason Pilling
And over time, I’ve learned, actually, the thing that I love as a listener, which is also what I try to service as a musician, is actually super niche.
00:26:42:40 – 00:27:29:37
Agent Palmer
So I know that I can agree with you to a point because I guess I my mother is, partially retired, semi-retired, not quite retired, but not quite, working. She was an internal marketer, consultant, for the longest time. That was what she did for basically my whole life. And internal marketing is basically in a nutshell, you know, you need to be a good, customer for your employees so they can be better for your customers.
00:27:29:42 – 00:27:56:57
Agent Palmer
Happy employees equals happy customers. Now, there’s not a lot of businesses that necessarily follow that, but the ones that do are usually the best places to work. It’s funny how that works. They’re also very successful. Usually, and I only bring it up for this reason. Most of the places that need an expert like my mother don’t think they need an expert like my mother.
00:27:57:01 – 00:28:30:48
Agent Palmer
And by that same token, what you see as niche and and it may very well be, I still believe music is music and that the people that may like your music the best, probably the ones that are just not not with it. And I, I guess I could say, hey everybody, if you haven’t listened to episode one, I’m going to summarize something, but both Jason and I came late to grunge in different ways, but we came to the party at some point in different ways.
00:28:30:48 – 00:28:54:34
Agent Palmer
Right. And I think that by that same token, you know, at our, at your and Mai’s separate but similar anti grunge or that’s not for me or I not quite it for me. I don’t think either of us would have believed that one day we would be on the other side. And so I think music is music. I, I, I don’t love Taylor Swift but I like Taylor Swift.
00:28:54:34 – 00:29:16:34
Agent Palmer
Again, not something I thought I would ever say. Right. And I, I think I still believe, music is universal. And so I think that part of it is your niche, because the amount of people willing to admit they like your stuff, we’re willing to admit they like your genre. Do you know what I mean? Like or like?
00:29:16:36 – 00:29:46:25
Agent Palmer
Oh, I like indie folk. Like, yeah, there are probably people that only listen to pop that really do like indie folk. They just don’t know it. Right? Like there’s any number of things. But by that same token, this is why marketing is so hard. Because technically your audience is everybody. And I’m going to say, I’m going to tell you the thing that used to get me in trouble when I was a digital marketer for a nonprofit organization that had no money, and they’d always want to do cool stuff.
00:29:46:25 – 00:30:10:27
Agent Palmer
And we used to do some really cool stuff, and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t. But do you know what the biggest problem and this was? Look, this was ten, 15 years ago. It’s still a big problem. So I don’t want anybody to downplay what I’m about to say. But at the height of Twitter in, say, 2012, you could be a brand of 100,000.
00:30:10:40 – 00:30:38:40
Agent Palmer
You could be an independent blog of 100, you could be Coca-Cola with 2 million subscribers or followers or whatever. You’re competing against each other. And there’s nothing you can do about it. That’s the platform. That’s the way it works. So is it, you know, and Twitter at that time was very specific because it was one of the few social networks that showed you everything you followed.
00:30:38:45 – 00:30:48:58
Agent Palmer
So Coke and the organization I worked for and you and me all had equal. Or if somebody followed all four of us, there was an equal chance they were going to see everything we saw.
00:30:49:03 – 00:30:55:32
Jason Pilling
However, it’s just true. I remember when Twitter used to be a sequential time based feed before it went. I’ll go.
00:30:55:37 – 00:31:04:33
Agent Palmer
But the problem is it’s still happenstance, right? It’s still all right. All four of us are going to show up on the feed.
00:31:04:38 – 00:31:05:13
Jason Pilling
Yeah.
00:31:05:18 – 00:31:26:51
Agent Palmer
Which one are they going to see even before video and when it was just text. There’s four text blocks. Yeah. What are they going to see. What’s their mood. You know, do they have time. What’s you know. And all of that is to say that I’m not saying that your marketing efforts are anything other than what you’re doing there.
00:31:26:51 – 00:31:52:32
Agent Palmer
Their level of success is almost entirely based on what you set the parameters at, but it’s also you could do the same thing spaced a month apart and have different results for no apparent reason. And I think that it’s it may be more admirable that you put all your time into it than it is like anything else, because you’re trying new things.
00:31:52:37 – 00:31:59:40
Jason Pilling
Yeah, I’m going to continue to try new things. My current strategy is, I don’t know, we love to curse on this podcast.
00:31:59:45 – 00:32:01:13
Agent Palmer
Absolutely. Go ahead and.
00:32:01:26 – 00:32:05:44
Jason Pilling
Because my new strategy is Jason doesn’t give a fuck.
00:32:05:48 – 00:32:11:38
Agent Palmer
I like that, I think I think that strategy may work out much better than you expect. Well.
00:32:11:43 – 00:32:37:55
Jason Pilling
I mean, yeah, it’s ironic that I’m secretly hoping that that works, of course, but, but but that’s but that’s also a defense mechanism. Like, it’s like I’ve tried everything you’re supposed to try and I, you know, I’ve made some headway. I feel like I’ve earned the respect of my peers. Okay. But that doesn’t translate necessarily, because you’re, you know, my peers are a pretty small audience.
00:32:38:00 – 00:33:03:01
Agent Palmer
Yeah. There’s, there’s and I, I can’t I I’m, I’ve read too many like, music biographies and they all kind of jumbled together. But there’s always like within any music scene, there’s always like the musician that those guys like. And it’s never like. Like, I don’t know, like, take like whoever’s touring together or like within a rock genre of like 1980, whatever.
00:33:03:12 – 00:33:21:58
Agent Palmer
And they all have, like, they’re one guy they all look up to and it’s almost never anybody we’ve ever heard of. Right. And so there’s, I don’t know, like, is that guy comfortable because all these popular people list him as their guy or like, has he made it.
00:33:22:03 – 00:33:46:00
Jason Pilling
Yeah. It doesn’t it doesn’t. Well, I think Bob Wiseman that I mentioned in the, in the last episode, he, he’s one of those guys. It’s just like sort of has almost like a reason to be bitter because he’s so frequently cited by other musicians as being influential, yet he has like dismal listener stats himself. He, you know, he can still kind of put on a show.
00:33:46:00 – 00:33:48:54
Jason Pilling
He has like a certain amount of audience to put on a show.
00:33:48:54 – 00:34:15:49
Agent Palmer
But yeah, it’s, it’s there’s a weird disconnect and I, I, it’s, it’s sucks because what it truly means, especially now with you having a recording studio in your house, basically, and me, I don’t know, I guess the same tools I use to record this podcast could be used to record any of the guitars behind me, right? I mean, I it’s not out of the realm of possibility.
00:34:15:49 – 00:34:26:00
Agent Palmer
What I mix this podcast on, I could mix music on, and that means that we’re kind of against each other. If I was ever to put out something. Absolutely.
00:34:26:00 – 00:34:35:27
Jason Pilling
Yeah. And, and I, I know I’ve struggled with that as well. It’s like, yes, the music industry is they keep on saying we’re all in it together. We’re all in it together. I’m like, but we’re not actually.
00:34:35:34 – 00:34:56:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it’s again it we’re in brutal competition. Yeah. And that’s, it’s, it’s I always think back to before I had a podcast before I was even, but when I was just a podcast listener, I listened to so many podcasts and they were all friendly with each other, and that was great. And there would be some great crossover and this, that and the other thing.
00:34:57:07 – 00:35:19:10
Agent Palmer
But at the end of the day, if 12 episodes get released in a three day span, I can’t listen to all. Even if I didn’t have a job like it’s really hard mathematically to get it all in. And by the same token, yeah, you could listen to my album and Jason’s album, but most people don’t have that kind of.
00:35:19:19 – 00:35:39:34
Agent Palmer
Most people aren’t listening to the albums. I mean, I’m, I feel like I’m the rarity. I make time to sit down and listen to an album, old or new, from beginning to end, because I, I like the idea that the artist put this together for a reason, and I’m going to take that journey with them. But I also know I’m a rarity in that I listen to a whole album.
00:35:39:39 – 00:35:55:14
Jason Pilling
Yeah, I listen to a lot of music, like that’s part of my I’m constantly searching for people to collaborate with, and so I listen to pretty much everything my peers put out.
00:35:55:19 – 00:36:04:22
Agent Palmer
That’s a third job you’ve given yourself. Yeah. I mean, I’m not trying to pick on you, but, like, that must be as much time as the marketing.
00:36:04:22 – 00:36:08:28
Jason Pilling
I categorize that under marketing because collaboration is marketing.
00:36:08:28 – 00:36:09:03
Agent Palmer
All right.
00:36:09:08 – 00:36:32:38
Jason Pilling
That’s so fine. Finding a good collab is priceless in my opinion. For marketing. Yeah. Because, you know, you basically I call it lottery tickets. Like, I put out this EP a couple years ago where I got someone to officially feature on every single song. Okay, you know, they’re all good musicians. I just viewed just like any one of these guys has, you know, some success.
00:36:32:50 – 00:36:53:04
Jason Pilling
Their profile is going to link back to mine. Yep. And, you know, that wasn’t the only reason I did it, but that was part of my motivation to go the extra mile to make it the official collab. Plus, music is better when you do it with other people. Not only the process you enjoy more, but the music is literally better.
00:36:53:04 – 00:37:16:38
Jason Pilling
In my opinion. When you get more than one brain on it, there’s, you know, we hear about the legend of Prince or whoever that you know, or Stevie Wonder did everything themselves. Yeah, but they did it all themselves. After someone had taught them how to do it, they didn’t come out of the womb knowing how to record the entire album themselves.
00:37:16:41 – 00:37:36:17
Jason Pilling
Yeah, they were experienced musicians when they did that. And, you know, and I could produce an entire album by myself too. And, you know, I’m not going to try to claim that it’s the same, but it’s just like, it’s not rocket science, you know, to play well, to play a beat on the drums. No, they play it every instant.
00:37:36:21 – 00:37:37:40
Jason Pilling
Yeah. We don’t need to get into that.
00:37:37:42 – 00:37:59:22
Agent Palmer
No no no no, that’s not what I was getting. I was going to say it but but you got to remember and I feel like I say this every time I talk about music, but you know, we. And podcasting I guess I also I say this a lot more with podcasting, but I think music is pretty equal where you’re fanatics.
00:37:59:27 – 00:38:20:08
Agent Palmer
Understand? Like, my, my particular one of my particular circles I ran around in, in high school was, a bunch of metalheads, and we watched the, documentary a year and a half in the life of Metallica all the time. It was just something we’d put on all the time. We probably. I still probably have half of it memorized.
00:38:20:08 – 00:38:47:59
Agent Palmer
And it’s one of those two VHS, things. Right. But it’s about the making of the Black Album. So as fanatics of that kind of a thing, we understand the process by which an album is made. And I think to the same extent DVD extras have taught movie fanatics. This is how you make a movie. They get behind the scenes stuff.
00:38:48:04 – 00:39:10:24
Agent Palmer
Podcasting is a little bit less and nobody’s that much of a fanatic. Nobody knows how this works. People still think it’s just record, publish and it’s not. But you know, the point is when you’re not fanatical about it, which most people aren’t, most people are just a fan. They’re not the step up. They’re a fan. They don’t know everything that goes into it.
00:39:10:29 – 00:39:35:25
Agent Palmer
So if you can play, if if you say, hi, I’m Jason, I can play guitar, drums and bass and sing. This is my album. They think, oh, that seems okay. Yeah. What’s the big. Yeah. All right. You can do all those things. You did all those things. Now you have an out. Like there is no true concept of the behind the scenes for a fan, right?
00:39:35:25 – 00:39:59:48
Agent Palmer
They know maybe there’s other musicians, maybe whatever, whatever. But the process, you might as well be a wizard like it is truly magic. And there’s the thing that I’ve skipped over in all of this, which is, you know, you can still you can know everything there is to know about recording techniques and you know how to play every instrument.
00:39:59:52 – 00:40:25:03
Agent Palmer
Jason, where the ideas come from, how do you write like that? Still? I mean, we don’t have to talk about music, but that’s pretty magical, right? Like when you write a verse, a chorus, a line that really resonates with yourself or with me or with anybody, like, that’s that’s magic. People don’t understand that.
00:40:25:08 – 00:40:59:59
Jason Pilling
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just I just mean, like, there’s there’s like little details. Like on the, on the previous I talked about, like, you know, you get an instrument and you need to touch it to play it. Yeah. And stuff like that to get like the little expressive details. So that’s part of it is that you get someone in that is really good at their instrument, and they will be able to get to a place that you could you can’t get on your own, and you couldn’t even imagine because you didn’t even like I.
00:40:59:59 – 00:41:25:41
Jason Pilling
I’ve been making this, 80s cover thing late in the recently. It’s like my current project in production. It’s not released, you know, just rereleased in 2026 sometime, maybe not early 2026. And so I had this person come in, and her artist name is Zinnia, if you ever want to look her up. But she’s an amazing viola player and she just.
00:41:25:41 – 00:41:42:20
Jason Pilling
And I had scored out what she was going to play, and I gave her the score. And, you know, she’s a trained musician. She’s just playing the score. And then, you know, we just start talking about and she’s like, well, I could try some of these things. And she starts doing what’s called extended techniques. And she starts to just like.
00:41:42:20 – 00:42:00:37
Jason Pilling
And so I was the so the songs that I did, I did a cover of the ones that she played on the lot where, I did like this kind of weird acoustic cover of a metallica song. Nice. And so she played all these, like, really creepy sounds on the on the viola. So it’s second destroy I did.
00:42:00:50 – 00:42:21:20
Jason Pilling
Oh, right. And so the song is just kind of like about these, these people that just want to go and break shit, right. And so she played all these, like, really creepy sounds on her viola. I could have never scored that for her. The only reason that’s going to be on the recording is because she was in the room, and she said, I could try this.
00:42:21:22 – 00:42:44:41
Jason Pilling
I’m. And she start and I’m like, yes, do more of that. And that’s the interaction of the collaboration that makes the song better. When I, when I do it by myself, I always have to think about what are my boundaries, because I don’t want to get into a place where I’m over my head and I’m playing like an amateur.
00:42:44:46 – 00:43:06:39
Jason Pilling
I want to only play stuff that I can play really well, or I’ve hired lots of people to, like, play parts. If I get into a boundary where like, no, this isn’t good enough, I’m hiring a person to come in and play. But there are lots of times where I make a song by myself that I stay out of that zone.
00:43:06:39 – 00:43:18:21
Jason Pilling
And then, you know, I’m obviously very proud of what I’m putting out, and I don’t feel like it’s been compromised by me doing it by myself. But whatever. It expands the range, I guess.
00:43:18:25 – 00:43:47:24
Agent Palmer
Well, and I that collaborative aspect is maybe something that it gets lost a little bit. And I think that, I mean, more power to you for having people in and I guess I don’t is it is it is it your self-confidence that allows you to go like. All right, well, yeah, I wrote this, but do that because that’s so much better.
00:43:47:39 – 00:43:49:39
Agent Palmer
That’s got to be some self-confidence.
00:43:49:50 – 00:44:10:50
Jason Pilling
Yeah, I would agree that I’m not. I’m not feeling like the song is dying without them. But I’ve just had that experience so many times that, well, that’s part of the reason. Like I said earlier, it’s like I’m listening to other people because I want to hear what they do. Yeah. And then, you know, you reach, I reach out to people constantly.
00:44:10:50 – 00:44:26:15
Jason Pilling
Hey, would you like to try doing this? Would you like to try doing that? And the truth is, is that 90% of what you get back is I don’t have time. They don’t really say no, they’re not against it. Some of them will say yes and then they don’t do it. And some of them will be just honest.
00:44:26:15 – 00:44:46:27
Jason Pilling
Like I don’t have time ever. Most people are doing music in their spare time because they need some other way to pay the bills. And I always consider it like my superpower that I have the time to do it. So I’m like, I will take care of everything, just show up and play. That’s all I need you to do.
00:44:46:32 – 00:45:06:30
Jason Pilling
And and some people have just kind of gone into that mode like this. This woman, Xenia, it’s part of what she does. That’s how partly she pays her bill. She does session work. So for her, it’s a super easy to book her just book tour for the whole afternoon. We did all kinds of stuff. She played on four songs.
00:45:06:35 – 00:45:07:55
Jason Pilling
So,
00:45:08:00 – 00:45:16:25
Agent Palmer
We talked a little bit about it, but obviously you’re you’re you’re a musician. You’re mixing your own stuff. Are you producing albums for other people?
00:45:16:34 – 00:45:39:37
Jason Pilling
I’ve done a little bit of that. You know, I’ve done recording stuff more than I’ve done producing. I’ve never really done creative stuff for other people. I think people are really precious about the creative side. So I’ve done like recording stuff and I’ve mixed for people a little bit. Okay. But that just kind of it’s kind of happenstance.
00:45:39:37 – 00:45:59:52
Jason Pilling
I don’t really seek that work out. Because if I do that, I’m not working on my own stuff. And so I really I kind of want to do that because I want to collaborate. Okay. So I it’s kind of like, I’ll do that as a favor for you because I want you to do something for, for me collaboratively.
00:46:00:07 – 00:46:03:05
Jason Pilling
We’ll help each other. Yeah. We’ll trade these. Yeah.
00:46:03:14 – 00:46:04:08
Agent Palmer
No, no. Hey.
00:46:04:13 – 00:46:28:25
Jason Pilling
Yeah, that’s. So I’ve done a little bit of that. And I did it really cheaply for a while, and I just kind of decide I can’t. I can’t do it cheaply anymore because I feel like, I’ve hit a wall on what, what I’ve what I’m achieving and what I’m feeling good about, how I’m moving forward.
00:46:28:25 – 00:46:48:00
Jason Pilling
And I just, I guess I’ve got enough connections into the into the community. Now, if I was willing to give away my time, I could give it all away. And and people would take it because, you know, enough people have kind of learned, you know, I can fix instruments, I can build instruments, I can record things. If I wanted to give away my time, I could give it all away.
00:46:48:00 – 00:47:06:10
Jason Pilling
No problem. So I just I just kind of said, I have to take it back because I started to feel like I’m not achieving my own goals. So I swore to stop that. And one person I was doing it for, I just kind of told them, I’m not really going to do it anymore. And then I called them back three months later.
00:47:06:10 – 00:47:28:35
Jason Pilling
Okay, my heads above water again. I’ll do it again. But, I’m going to double my rate and I’m not doubling my rate to be greedy. I’m doubling my rate because I recalibrated my rate at such that if I work for you, I will make enough money that I can pay someone to work for me. Yeah, and that’s how we’ll do the trade.
00:47:28:35 – 00:47:28:57
Jason Pilling
These.
00:47:29:04 – 00:47:58:16
Agent Palmer
All right, so I need to ask this question. I have a friend. I went to a very small liberal arts school. And I was, communications major, so I, I had a lot of art major friends. And 20 years on, most of those people, even if they’re still doing art in their spare time, have never truly figured out the value of art.
00:47:58:21 – 00:48:21:58
Agent Palmer
And what’s worse is when they’re in a medium like painting or sculpture, they’re not as lucky as necessarily you are in that, I don’t know, you can go on Bandcamp and see what a million other people are charging for that stuff. That’s fairly standard. It’s not standardized, but it’s you have a very good range with which to work from.
00:48:21:58 – 00:48:47:19
Agent Palmer
Whereas you got a canvas, a 12 by 15 canvas painting. Good luck. I mean, good luck trying to figure out what the value of that is. Yeah, but I love the idea that you doubled your rate, because I also think that on a whole, when we do things we love, we’re very hesitant to charge the actual probable value of that.
00:48:47:24 – 00:48:55:23
Agent Palmer
And I wanted to know, like, you know, was it hard for you to charge at all? Because obviously you like doing music.
00:48:55:28 – 00:49:21:22
Jason Pilling
So I, I want I wanted to do it for community first. Okay. That was my number one motivation is if it is if I loved working with you and secretly I don’t necessarily want the people I charge to hear it. But there are some people I work for free because, but I’ve tried to set the rule. Now I don’t work for free unless I’m a creative director of the project.
00:49:21:27 – 00:49:24:16
Jason Pilling
Okay, everybody else, if.
00:49:24:16 – 00:49:27:45
Agent Palmer
You’re if you’re along for the ride in any capacity, it’s.
00:49:27:45 – 00:49:35:38
Jason Pilling
Going to have my name on it as an output. That’s that’s my line. Now, everybody else has to, has to pay.
00:49:35:43 – 00:49:47:12
Agent Palmer
Well, how did you get here? Because obviously, if you started wanting to do it for the community, I mean, you know, was it all right? I don’t have time for my stuff anymore. I need to charge the wages.
00:49:47:17 – 00:50:07:08
Jason Pilling
Okay? I have, I just I just wanted it, I so I, like I said, I hired a lot of people to do tracks for me and my experience of trying to hire people to do tracks basically taught me what the going rate was for someone to approach the job professionally and get it done.
00:50:07:13 – 00:50:07:36
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:50:07:36 – 00:50:30:52
Jason Pilling
Because because a lot of people will offer to do it for free and then they don’t get it done and for someone like me, that is like kind of a little bit business oriented. I don’t make any money at this, to be clear, but, you know, I’m still business oriented in this, like we’re accountable to we’re aiming high all of those things.
00:50:30:57 – 00:50:50:55
Jason Pilling
So you know, if we if we have an agreement to do something, it should get done. Yeah. So you just started you. I’ve learned that free is worth what you pay. Yeah. Every once in a while, you get lucky, and it’s like, damn, that was amazing. And that was free. But, but but the truth is, is that most of the time, is it?
00:50:50:55 – 00:50:57:16
Jason Pilling
It’s more logistical problems to get a free thing than if you just paid for it.
00:50:57:18 – 00:51:19:04
Agent Palmer
Okay. That makes more sense than I think. I’d like to admit. So you have an album coming? I want to ask. Not not for any other reason, that I want to know how many things you’re juggling. How many more albums are in your head right now? Like, are you focused on one or is there still another percolating?
00:51:19:05 – 00:51:20:40
Agent Palmer
Are you still like, you know, I.
00:51:20:40 – 00:51:47:30
Jason Pilling
Tried to keep a full plate and you know, we’re talking about collaboration stuff. So collaboration is hard to do logistically. It’s, it’s really a stage managing job of who is available. And, and so I’ve been doing this like collaborative EP, I will not not even fully collaborative, just like I have some featured people again that are going to show up on this 80s cover project.
00:51:47:44 – 00:52:10:40
Jason Pilling
And, you know, that took months to do, even though I did offer a, you know, price for the track. But again, they they have their own careers, they have their own music careers. They’re, you know, paid the bill careers. And it’s tough to get people, you know, to do the job sometimes. So I took a long time to organize.
00:52:10:40 – 00:52:31:17
Jason Pilling
So I always try to have like different streams. One stream is the these are the collaborative streams that I can be patient with. And then I have streams. There’s like, okay, I’m, I need to have some songs that I’m producing entirely by myself so that when I get frustrated with this other stuff, I can switch on to this song that I’m doing entirely by myself.
00:52:31:19 – 00:52:57:37
Jason Pilling
Okay, so basically I just released an album we’re talking in October, in fact, and I just released this album in at the end of September. And so that was an album that took basically a year, a full calendar year to make after I wrote it. Okay. And then it sat on the shelf for a while because I had two albums going at the same time.
00:52:57:37 – 00:53:17:26
Jason Pilling
So I mentioned earlier that, like, there’s an album called Power Down that came out last year, and I was working on the album called Power Down and the album called Post Nursery Rhymes simultaneously. And so I finished them at about the same time. So then Post Nursery Rhymes sat on the shelf for a year while I went through the release cycle for Power Down.
00:53:17:37 – 00:53:23:02
Agent Palmer
Well, it makes perfect sense because you don’t. You’re already competing with me. You don’t want to compete against your self as well.
00:53:23:06 – 00:53:43:53
Jason Pilling
Yeah, you don’t want to compete against that. And the reason that that that just worked out is just because I had an opportunity to, to do post nursery rhymes with this producer that I was excited about working with. And her name’s, Gabrielle Papillon. She’s an artist in, Nova Scotia. And her solo stuff is fantastic. I recommend it to anyone.
00:53:43:57 – 00:54:03:39
Jason Pilling
And we got along great and we made this album together, but I basically paused the album I was working on to do the thing with Gabrielle. And then as soon as I was done actively working with Gabrielle, I finished the other one, released it, and then came back around and released the Gabrielle stuff, which is come out here through.
00:54:03:44 – 00:54:34:55
Jason Pilling
It was basically 2025 was my post nursery rhymes year. It was kind of a big deal for me. I feel like post nursery rhymes is like it’s sort of that phase of my life, but I got into after, like I did the album that was kind of like inspired by my life before I quit. Okay, post Nursery Rhymes is very much like the first thing that was like, fully and entirely conceived and done after I’d quit.
00:54:35:00 – 00:54:59:58
Jason Pilling
And it sort of reflects all of my state of mind. And it’s it’s much more big world thinking. And and the reason I call it post nursery rhymes is just because they’re kind of like I call them parables for adults. It’s just kind of like reactions to things that are happening in my life, usually in my life, but also just kind of like being part of the world.
00:55:00:03 – 00:55:17:46
Jason Pilling
And so, yeah, I’m very proud of the sort of the intellectual content of that album as well. And now I’m working. So there’s a long answer to your question of what. So I’m working on posting Nursery Rhymes volume two now. Oh, nice. It’s like I like I said, it became like a big I felt very connected to this.
00:55:17:51 – 00:55:42:01
Jason Pilling
And so I’m all I’m already like partly done post Nursery rhymes volume two. But also I just love producing like self producing or I would produce other people if they I guess paid me, but if they’re not going to pay me, I’m going to produce myself because. Because it’s more fun to produce yourself than work for free, I guess, if you’re going to work for free, might as well be for yourself.
00:55:42:06 – 00:56:11:14
Jason Pilling
That’s. Yeah. So I’m doing the covers EP, and I have basically a couple more ideas about cover projects that I feel like I’ve written a lot of songs, and I don’t need to prove myself as a songwriter per se. Like basically, if I want to write original songs, they’ll just fall out of me. Okay, at this point, I have enough mental space for that that if I just stop what I’m doing, I’ll write songs.
00:56:11:19 – 00:56:40:49
Jason Pilling
Okay. So I’m I’m just never worried about running out of song ideas anymore. I’ve also done a big collaboration with a lyricist, who I met online. We’ve never met in person, but, you know, just like you and I are talking, you know, on or over online, right now. You know, I’ve, I’ve talked to Carlos is his name and like this and you know, he’s, you know, my age, my, my generation and my kind of person.
00:56:40:49 – 00:57:10:24
Jason Pilling
And we talked about he’s, a trained writer. He’s got like a fine arts degree. And so he basically writes lyrics. And we agreed what the broad scope of lyrics that I was interested in doing. And he just kind of sends me lyrics every once in a while. We put out, five songs together so far, and so I kind of want to turn in my, my collaboration with him into an album now to like, do a few more songs and then package it up and call it an album.
00:57:10:29 – 00:57:30:25
Jason Pilling
But I haven’t even had time to process the last lyrics he sent me. He sent me those lyrics in the spring, so it’s just like there’s a more creative stuff than I could possibly do. And I’m I’m very happy about that. And that’s, I guess that’s why I’m charging to help other people, because I’ve got so many ideas that I want to follow through on it.
00:57:30:25 – 00:57:49:52
Jason Pilling
I’m just like, well, if you want me to help you, I will do it for this amount because then I can produce my other projects way faster by getting people to help me.
00:57:49:57 – 00:58:15:18
Agent Palmer
Doing what we do in our respective creative spaces, and then sharing it publicly requires an amount of confidence, perhaps even bravado and because we are competing with everyone else, it is natural that we have ebbs and flows in confidence because of that thief of joy comparison. We’re always trying to ignore. Plus, never too far away. Lurking in the shadows is imposter syndrome, but the drive is there.
00:58:15:18 – 00:58:40:37
Agent Palmer
It’s always in us. Jason is one of no less than three musicians who have been guests on this show that put away music, only to return to it a decade or more later. A passion rekindled. Their creativity was dormant, not dead. Confidence comparison impostor syndrome. We’re not making it sound sexy or rewarding, but it absolutely is worth it.
00:58:40:41 – 00:59:04:11
Agent Palmer
Creativity is compelling. Music can be magical. Writing worthwhile? Perhaps even more so when you are returning to it, no matter how long the break. Just remember three words dormant, not dead. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 172. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion.
00:59:04:24 – 00:59:23:16
Agent Palmer
You can find all related ways to contact Jason or myself in the show notes. You can see all of Jason’s stuff at Jason pilling.com, or look up Jason Pilling or Young Dukes on Spotify or SoundCloud or YouTube. The music for this episode is provided by Hannah Hightower. Email and comments can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com.
00:59:23:17 – 00:59:37:49
Agent Palmer
And remember your home for all things Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:59:37:54 – 00:59:45:24
Unknown
00:59:45:29 – 01:00:10:06
Unknown
01:00:10:11 – 01:00:12:30
Agent Palmer
All right. Jason, do you have one final question for me?
01:00:12:35 – 01:00:45:46
Jason Pilling
Okay, so I’m trying to be an artist in the world. I’ve talked a lot about community and stuff like that, and I’m feeling very strongly in my life that I want to spend time with people. Yeah, doing things together that we all care about and we all love to do. But the internet’s standing in our way. I think, do you think that this trend is going to go back?
01:00:45:51 – 01:01:04:57
Jason Pilling
Are people also like, I have time, I guess, to to do these things? So I’m seeking it out. Do you do you think that the rest of the world, the rest of the people are going to and or is it even generational? Are people going to want to be doing things in person again?
01:01:05:02 – 01:01:38:07
Agent Palmer
Yes. I wind windmill slam absolutely. 100%. Yes. And I say that because I like to call myself I well, I used to call myself an underemployed, you know, podcast producer. Now, I’m a stay at home dad that happens to produce podcasts and has my own blog and podcast. But one of my unofficial jobs, that I take maybe too seriously is friend.
01:01:38:12 – 01:02:21:59
Agent Palmer
And I have a friend who’s in insurance that has been climbing the ladder and working for more hours than he’s getting paid for, and I am his tether to reality in a sense not. I mean, not that he’s, you know, completely gone, but he’s he’s engaged in a corporate world on such a level that occasionally I’m like, dude, come over for dinner and we’re just going to chill, like, I mean, and and as we record this, it’s been only a couple of weeks since we had our quote unquote sit in for sanity, which is my wife and he both take days off and we all just sit in the living room for like four hours
01:02:21:59 – 01:02:47:30
Agent Palmer
and, well, like eight hours. And we put on like a movie marathon. The first time we did it was obviously Lord of the rings extended editions. But then we, this past one, we bought them, one of the ones we did with all the Ninja Turtle movies. And then this past year, when we did the Cornetto Trilogy, which is, for those who don’t know, it’s, Shaun of the dead, Hot Fuzz, and, end of the world.
01:02:47:35 – 01:03:10:34
Agent Palmer
And it’s just you’re not. You’re not allowed to talk work. You come over, we’re going to eat junk food, we’re going to put on watch movies. And if you want to write some poetry, if you want to paint minis, if you want to, whatever you want to do, that’s fine. But this is our break. And I’m that’s, you know, an annual that become an annual thing.
01:03:10:34 – 01:03:27:50
Agent Palmer
But I try and get him over here on a more regular basis to get him out. He just bought a house and that’s fine. And I like listening to him talk about mowing his lawn or fixing his stairs or whatever, but anything that’s not related to work I like hearing, but I am. I am his tethered to all that stuff.
01:03:27:50 – 01:03:50:29
Agent Palmer
I am also, I guess in full disclosure, I, his editor, he’s working on his second book of poetry. The first one we put out like what feels like 15 years ago. The second one we’ve been working on since and for like eight New Years in a row, whether we’ve been together or just on the phone, I’ve been like, so is this the year?
01:03:50:29 – 01:04:24:41
Agent Palmer
And he’s like, yeah, this is the year, and it’s never been the year. You’re listening to this in 2026. This is supposed to be the year. Even though last year, 2025 was supposed to be the year. And yeah. So I, I’m, I’m his tethered to bring him out. I also have a friend who’s not quite as corporate necessarily minded, but he’s got two jobs and a side hustle and so again, you know, we talk every day and I try and bring him out and I it’s not just them.
01:04:24:41 – 01:04:48:25
Agent Palmer
There are other people I know in my life that I’m like, whether you can come over or whether it’s just a half hour where we’re going to talk about music, talk about a movie, I’m going to make sure you’re not thinking about that thing you’re working on for 80 hours a week and pulling them out. Now, look, I’m like, I would call myself a rare breed.
01:04:48:25 – 01:05:11:12
Agent Palmer
I do a lot of this with a phone, an actual phone call, not text. I in fact, video like this kind of stuff. I only do for the podcast. If you and I exchanged numbers, you’re going to get phone calls for me because I prefer to talk to you. And that’s not generational, because I know other people in our generation and in between us hate the the phone.
01:05:11:14 – 01:05:14:24
Agent Palmer
They want to text, they want to email. It’s like whatever. And I and.
01:05:14:24 – 01:05:18:29
Jason Pilling
I want to do it in person. I, I hate I hate the phone, but.
01:05:18:29 – 01:05:21:06
Agent Palmer
Second to that, I want to talk to you.
01:05:21:11 – 01:05:41:46
Jason Pilling
Yeah. I know I’d, I’d rather I’d rather talk on the phone than nothing. Yep. But like, I literally just went to, like, Ottawa for the weekend for a music conference thing and hung out with my longest friend. We’ve known each other our entire lives, hung out with my longest running friend for ten hours, and then came back home.
01:05:42:01 – 01:06:13:34
Agent Palmer
So I, I think it’s coming back and I think it’s coming back, because when I do drag these people away from their corporate brain for an hour or two or even a half hour, they’re all like, this was really good. And it’s like, yeah, because you’re not staring at a screen. You know, even if we have like a TV on, it’s not the same, you know, and or, you know, go for a walk or, you know, meet out, you know, I don’t go out to eat very much.
01:06:13:34 – 01:06:32:47
Agent Palmer
I’ve got an, you know, an eight month old at the moment. And so when I have a two year old, who will hopefully behave, I can go back out into the world and have lunches and try and get people to leave their space and keep your phone in your pocket or in your car or leave it at home.
01:06:32:49 – 01:06:46:13
Agent Palmer
You know. Yeah, genuinely, I, I taken it upon myself within my small sphere of influence to get people to disconnect.
01:06:46:18 – 01:06:55:23
Jason Pilling
And and what feels weird about that, I and I think maybe what the struggle is that it’s almost like that’s it’s uncompensated effort. Right?
01:06:55:28 – 01:07:17:28
Agent Palmer
Oh, yeah. No, it’s completely and and it’s a lot of look, I know people are like rolling their eyes is a lot of work. If you like it, I it it feels like I’m trying to get my best friend off of heroin, but all I’m really trying to do is get him to put his phone down and hang out with me like we used to for a couple hours with no internet.
01:07:17:33 – 01:07:39:50
Agent Palmer
Like it’s. Yeah, it’s just. But it it feels like pulling teeth, like. Oh, but I just know it’s like, dude, we we grew up in the 90s. The internet was you can you can search that on Yahoo! But it’ll take five minutes. By that time we were on to the next thing and nobody looked it up. It’s fine.
01:07:39:55 – 01:08:02:02
Agent Palmer
I think everybody’s coming together. Will come together in a bigger way. I think right now, sadly, not only is the world fracturing, but the internet is isolating people on purpose. And I think that the first step is going to be putting down the phone. I mean, that’s that’s the first.
01:08:02:02 – 01:08:07:31
Jason Pilling
Starting to happen legislatively in a few places, like the Australia rules about. Yeah. You know.
01:08:07:43 – 01:08:15:58
Agent Palmer
But that’s that’s great for 18 and under. But. Well, I worry about you know, but I worry about our people hurt because I.
01:08:15:58 – 01:08:16:49
Jason Pilling
Know it’s I know.
01:08:16:50 – 01:08:41:34
Agent Palmer
Our friends that are kind of it’s our friends that need the legislation like oh, you know, 9:00 put your phone down. Like, whatever it is, it’s just there’s a there’s a need for it. And I understand the dopamine. You know, social media, whatever. But I, I’ve personally broken my own habits by leaving my phone. Like, I don’t absentmindedly leave my phone in the other room.
01:08:41:39 – 01:08:44:39
Agent Palmer
I do it because I don’t want it near me.
01:08:44:44 – 01:08:53:24
Jason Pilling
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I agree, I kind of like I have to be on the internet just for kind of like professional reasons, like I need to interact with.
01:08:53:24 – 01:08:56:00
Agent Palmer
That’s the marketing. That’s the with my community.
01:08:56:00 – 01:09:13:39
Jason Pilling
Yeah. But yeah, it sucks you in in other ways. And honestly my I would I just want to be in a band like that is the greatest thing I could possibly do with my time. But it’s hard. It’s hard. It’s hard to get people to pull together and want to be in a band together.
01:09:13:39 – 01:09:30:38
Agent Palmer
And yeah, I, I know that there’s a geek joke that, like, the hardest thing about playing D&D is getting four people to get together. But the same is true about getting a band together. Like, it’s not playing the music like you can. You can simplify music for whoever.
01:09:30:43 – 01:09:31:05
Jason Pilling
Yep.
01:09:31:06 – 01:09:45:39
Agent Palmer
Getting even three even even drum bass guitar. Getting three people in the same place that aren’t already living together. That stuff’s not easy anymore. In fact, it’s getting harder. And it shouldn’t be.
01:09:45:44 – 01:10:05:48
Jason Pilling
No, it’s. Yeah, it’s it’s hard. It’s hard. Anyway, I hope you’re right. It’s coming back. I’m trying to bring it back. It’s part of my. It’s part of, like what I consider to be my. What you just said. I want I want to bring people out, and I encourage people to just go out and be with other people.
01:10:05:48 – 01:10:11:55
Jason Pilling
And I think, I think music is good for that. Yeah, it’s a little bit self-serving, but. But it’s also true. Yeah.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).