For episode nine of The Palmer Files, guest Jason Zapata joins Agent Palmer to discuss adaption versus interpretation; from Tolkien and Terry Brooks to Batman, Bond, and Beowulf, plus many many more properties, it’s a pop culture cornucopia.
Jason and Jason relive old arguments about Tolkien’s seminal adaptation by Peter Jackson and discuss many book to screen adaptations and other interpretations plus go on a few sidetracks, because why not?
Throughout the conversation, we cover:
- Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien
- Book vs. Film
- Purist Perspective
- Tom Bombadil
- The Hobbit
- Terry Brooks and The Four Lands
- The Shannara Chronicles
- The Sword of Shannara Trilogy
- Being Generational
- Game of Thrones and George R.R. Martin
- The Name of the Winds by Patrick Rothfuss
- Rock Star Authors
- The Great And Secret Show by Clive Barker
- Do Not Touch list
- All Adaptations Are Not Created Equal
- Harry Potter by J. K. Rowling
- The Chronicles of Narnia by C. S. Lewis
- Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton
- Ready Player One by Ernest Cline
- Adaptation to Big or Small Screen
- Star Wars
- Comic Book Adaptations
- Batman as the new Macbeth
- James Bond
- Does the visual media inspire looking for the source material?
- Gender and Interpretation vs. Adaptation
- Women deserve better than gender-swapped characters
- Beowulf with Christopher Lambert
- The Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice
- The IPCRESS File
- Everyone should read more
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
Thanks to a friend, I’ve entered the World of Shannara
Galilee: A Romance by Clive Barker is a Masterpiece of the Written Word
Ernest Cline shows his immense geek cred with Ready Player One
The IPCRESS File by Len Deighton is a MAsterpiece of Spy Fiction (Spoiler Free Review)
Microserfs by Douglas Coupland is the Psychology of the Geeks Written Yesterday for Tomorrow
Carrying the Fire: An Astronaut’s Journeys by Michael Collins is a must-have for NASAphiles
Chuck Klosterman’s Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs
You can also hear more Palmer in the meantime on Our Liner Notes, a musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and as mentioned on this show as co-host of The Podcast Digest with Dan Lizette.
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:05 – 00:00:26:26
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. Six Transcendent Quotes from my podcast Q, my 2019 memoir. And of course, I need more wall space for the art. Sean inspired me to add to my collection. This is The Palmer Files episode nine, featuring the first in-person guest of the show. My very old friend Jason Zapata, where we discuss adaptation versus interpretation from Tolkien and Terry Brooks to Batman, Bond and Beowulf, plus many, many more properties.
00:00:26:27 – 00:00:52:22
Agent Palmer
It’s a pop culture cornucopia. Let’s do the show.
00:00:52:26 – 00:01:16:18
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this episode of the podcast is Jason Zapata. This one was different in that my guest was in studio. Seriously, guys, the first in-studio guest in the history of the Palmer Files podcast. So it took a while to get adjusted, but it’s easy to feel comfortable across from one of your oldest friends.
00:01:16:23 – 00:01:32:56
Agent Palmer
Jason Zapata and I go way back. He is a published author of one book of poetry with another on the way, and a novel that I hear is eventually going to see the light of day as well. A day may come in the future of this podcast when we discuss our shared histories, but it is not this day.
00:01:33:01 – 00:01:59:35
Agent Palmer
This day is for adaptation and interpretation across the many spectrums of good, bad and unrelated, plus everything in between. We relive old arguments about Tolkien’s seminal adaptation by Peter Jackson and discuss many book to screen fandoms like Shannara. Game of Thrones, Jurassic Park, Ready Player One, and many other different fandom interpretations like Star Wars and Rise and Land Dayton, to name a few.
00:01:59:40 – 00:02:23:37
Agent Palmer
The other thing I want to say is that while this conversation was unique unto itself, it is the kind of conversation that Zapata and I have had for decades over the course of our friendship. Did I anticipate everything he would say? I did not, did he? No. But we know each other so well that I do apologize if we skipped something as unsaid, which I don’t believe we did, but it’s possible.
00:02:23:42 – 00:02:45:27
Agent Palmer
I know Zapata and I, plus any other person, have the ability to lose that one other person. And I hope we did our best to make sure we left nothing unsaid. And we didn’t lose you. But if we did anything you want to yell at us in either agreement or distaste. You can tweet me at Agent Palmer. I can tweet the show at the Palmer Files, and you can even tweet support at Zapata Wordsmith.
00:02:45:35 – 00:03:06:12
Agent Palmer
Though he hasn’t been on Twitter in a while. So maybe if you welcome him nicely into the Twitter sphere, dear listener, we can change all of that. If you’re interested, you can see some of the Zapata’s work on his site JasonZapata dot com, though he hasn’t written on it for a while. You can still check it out. And of course, you can still see all of my writings on Agent palmer.com.
00:03:06:12 – 00:03:21:28
Agent Palmer
And remember, all of these links and those mentioned in the show will be in the show notes. So without further ado. Me and my friend.
00:03:21:32 – 00:03:35:57
Agent Palmer
Mr. Zapata, we’re going to start with Lord of the rings. I at the very beginning had some. In hindsight, not so major, but at the time I thought major issues.
00:03:36:01 – 00:03:38:00
Jason Zapata
Reservations.
00:03:38:05 – 00:04:01:08
Agent Palmer
That that’s a good word. I had major reservations with the film franchise. And you? After a decade plus of waging the same battle and the same debate and the same discussion and the same argument and the same whatever you want to call it over and over and over. Finally, turn me around. It was a war of attrition that you.
00:04:01:13 – 00:04:20:01
Agent Palmer
I don’t know how. I guess just sheer will. You won. But it’s as good a place to start as any for this discussion. You were on the other side. You were like, these movies are brilliant. There are no reservations.
00:04:20:06 – 00:04:25:12
Jason Zapata
You are certainly the purest, in terms of this, particular debate.
00:04:25:17 – 00:04:49:16
Agent Palmer
Purist is I was an asshole. Like, I’ll say it like I was a dick. Like I was totally a dick. I had I had one flag to fly. I mean, there were others. Don’t get me wrong. Like, there are other things I could have had reservations about. All right, but I didn’t. I like I understood why Aragorn and Erwin had their.
00:04:49:16 – 00:05:08:06
Agent Palmer
You know, you weren’t going to take all the mythology and do a thing for everything. So they borrowed that from. I think it was like the Book of Lost Tales or Unfinished Tales or something, you know, whatever. Like that. It’s a great love story between an elf and a nonce elf. I get all that, but I was just.
00:05:08:10 – 00:05:09:14
Jason Zapata
You got to tell the audience.
00:05:09:15 – 00:05:19:37
Agent Palmer
Tom, Bob Dylan, tom von Video like where’s Tom. Tom’s not here man. They, they don’t get out of Shire without Tom man. Where’s Tom. I missed Tom Tom’s.
00:05:19:42 – 00:05:22:39
Jason Zapata
Singing so many times. So many years.
00:05:22:39 – 00:05:50:37
Agent Palmer
The poems, the songs. Oh all the leaf. I’m just saying I that was my argument. And you, you turn me around on it. Surprisingly like. And it was. It was a shock to me when I finally turn around, I, I didn’t not watch them several times in theaters. All three. I didn’t not buy the extended editions. You and I watched the extended editions together and we don’t argue when we’re watching.
00:05:50:42 – 00:05:53:17
Jason Zapata
No. No, it’s it’s afterwards.
00:05:53:17 – 00:05:53:59
Agent Palmer
It’s.
00:05:54:03 – 00:05:59:12
Jason Zapata
But you know what this movie could have needed. And I roll my eyes and like, let me guess.
00:05:59:16 – 00:06:00:43
Agent Palmer
But what did it need.
00:06:00:48 – 00:06:01:36
Jason Zapata
To bomb video.
00:06:01:36 – 00:06:16:24
Agent Palmer
That’s exactly what it needed. Yes. It’s not actually that it was needed so much as it was missing. And I was very upset. I felt that the lack of Tom was a personal affront to me.
00:06:16:29 – 00:06:38:18
Jason Zapata
And we’ve discussed various theories as to why he didn’t appear in the films. To my strongest take away from it was in terms of pacing for the film, you know, getting the hobbits out of the Shire and getting them, you know, meeting Aragorn in the rest of what would be the fellowship. That was the driving goal for the film, you know?
00:06:38:18 – 00:06:50:38
Jason Zapata
And and unfortunately, I think it would have been too much of a detour, to include, you know, Tom is as weighty a character as he may be for the purist. I think in terms of the pacing for the film, it would have suffered.
00:06:50:38 – 00:07:29:19
Agent Palmer
But to that point, because I can still go back to my arguments, he was the one that saved them from the tree, which gets moved to I mean, Jackson keeps that scene. He just moves it to another part of the trilogy. It gets into adaptation and interpretation and I think that on the other side, the war of attrition between us being over like Peter, and even when we were fighting the war of attrition, I would never have said Peter Jackson did anything wrong.
00:07:29:24 – 00:07:49:28
Agent Palmer
Like I never really blamed him. I was just upset. Yeah, something from a purist objective because, you know, I guess it’s something that helps identify me as a more of a nerd, more of an OG. Like I read the book. I know what’s missing. Yeah. Do you know what’s missing now? Of course you don’t. You watch the films.
00:07:49:37 – 00:08:04:06
Agent Palmer
It’s all you did. You didn’t pick up the book. But how do you feel? Despite my issues, right. And you were always want to defend these films? Oh of course. Where were you when you first watched them? Like, what was the.
00:08:04:11 – 00:08:30:25
Jason Zapata
Nerd Varna? It would be the, the phrase I would use, the casting, the set design, the location. I mean, everything, the score, everything came together to make that particular film one of the best adaptations ever. And people argue, you know, over genre like, oh, well, that’s fantasy. That’s not, you know, a drama. So it doesn’t really count.
00:08:30:30 – 00:08:44:12
Agent Palmer
It is it? I mean, I, I mean, there’s drama in there. It’s also a, you know, kind of military. It’s got some romance. It’s got a little bit of lighthearted comedy because you can’t have hobbits without comedy.
00:08:44:23 – 00:08:48:16
Jason Zapata
It’s just second breakfast, you know, I’m gonna have that second breakfast got.
00:08:48:17 – 00:08:51:17
Agent Palmer
I mean, yeah. Elevenses.
00:08:51:22 – 00:08:52:35
Jason Zapata
Come on. Dinner. Supper.
00:08:52:39 – 00:08:55:19
Agent Palmer
Oh, oh afternoon.
00:08:55:23 – 00:08:58:30
Jason Zapata
We’re all hobbits on Thanksgiving too. So it’s like.
00:08:58:35 – 00:09:00:12
Agent Palmer
We’re all hobbits all the time.
00:09:00:12 – 00:09:02:55
Jason Zapata
Could be, could be.
00:09:02:59 – 00:09:24:05
Agent Palmer
All right. So you love the film. Where do you stand when I say. But Tom, like, we haven’t really given people like your side of this, just that you kept defending them. But like, what was your defense or your offense against me being like. But Tom, but Tom but Tom. But Tom.
00:09:24:05 – 00:09:52:11
Jason Zapata
Wasn’t. Besides, again, the the aforementioned pacing issue, I would say that really besides that initial part in the first book, he doesn’t really make a reappearance anywhere else. So, you know, it’s one of those things where if you’re making a trilogy of movies and this person’s not going to appear again in another three and a half, four hours worth of film, is it are you going to really take the time to set up a scene, to have this character appear?
00:09:52:16 – 00:10:00:21
Jason Zapata
So, you know, there just wasn’t enough payoff for poor Tom to, you know, make his glorious entrance all right.
00:10:00:21 – 00:10:19:06
Agent Palmer
And then and I was fine with it and, and then and then and then The Hobbit came out and it was like, I know who Radagast is, but what what what why is he here? What’s what’s what’s Radagast doing here? All right. What’s what’s going on?
00:10:19:10 – 00:10:24:43
Jason Zapata
The weird Galadriel Gandalf kind of romance thing with twist. Like it was kind of weird.
00:10:24:50 – 00:10:52:25
Agent Palmer
It’s basically right. It’s the same writing crew. It’s the same people adapt. I know there was the whole del Toro stuff, and I’m not going to get into that. But yeah, essentially you’re looking at three books, three movies. That was Lord of the rings. All good. Then you’re looking at one book, The Hobbit, three movies, and you go, wow, you did so well adapting the first one.
00:10:52:25 – 00:11:17:03
Agent Palmer
And I grant you, it’s kind of like those, like, I make it akin to the first album for a band where you’ve got years to, like, discuss the music and what songs you put on the album, and they’d gone over that script many times before they even sold it, right? So like then all of a sudden they get this Hobbit project dropped in their lap and they don’t have as much time.
00:11:17:03 – 00:11:38:50
Agent Palmer
But you’ve already been over this before. You can’t look at Lord of the rings without having a little bit of appreciation for The Hobbit, and they kind of do a what? A 32nd version of The Hobbit at the beginning of, return of the King. Yeah, kind of deal. So they’re not unfamiliar with it. And then they go, yeah, but there’s all this other stuff.
00:11:38:50 – 00:11:52:40
Agent Palmer
There’s the Book of Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion, there’s the Book of Lost Tales, the yeah, all this other stuff, and they’re just like, we’re going to add it in. And then I go like, what happened? What happened? Yeah, like it was.
00:11:52:44 – 00:12:12:26
Jason Zapata
And as we’ve discussed previously, I would say that there is that fine line between, again, adaptation and interpretation. With The Hobbit films. Unfortunate. Well, not unfortunately we’re not. We’re talking like, these were like, you know, myth films. They weren’t really myth films. They’re they’re good. They just weren’t on the scale.
00:12:12:26 – 00:12:34:59
Agent Palmer
No, but you and I could easily cut out all of the, like, Gandalf on his own stuff and stick to. All right, so there was a hobbit before Peter Jackson did it. Just like there was a Lord of the rings before Peter Jackson did it. And The Hobbit that existed was an NBC television special, that ranking and bastard.
00:12:35:03 – 00:13:02:46
Agent Palmer
And if I were to take the live action Peter Jackson film and cut it, so it only showed the same scenes because those scenes exist in every adaptation that are in the ranking, the bass version, we end up with one movie at like 82 minutes, probably 90 or 105, like it’s going to be longer because I’m not going to cut scenes, but I’ll I’ll take the scenes as they exist.
00:13:02:50 – 00:13:10:58
Agent Palmer
You cut all the other stuff out, and I think you have a really slick film. One really slick.
00:13:11:03 – 00:13:33:27
Jason Zapata
Film. Yeah, with The Hobbit. And like anyone you talk to who watched a film said like, this should never have been three films like two at the most, you know, would have been more than sufficient. And again, it was what they were choosing to include because it was, you know, I think you pointed out there was a lot of stuff from Lost Tails and some early in there were kind of shoehorning in.
00:13:33:32 – 00:13:47:27
Jason Zapata
And there was also depictions of the battle the way was, you know, being fought. There was a lot of things that, you know, that Peter Jackson kind of included that really wasn’t in the books at all. So again, Dean, that was his interpretation of the.
00:13:47:28 – 00:13:52:22
Agent Palmer
Well, and it’s such a it’s such a stark contrast to the way he handled the first three.
00:13:52:23 – 00:14:09:34
Jason Zapata
Such a very historical, very, one would dare say, purist approach to adapting the book, where with this he took liberties and I’m okay with, with some of the liberties he took. I just think in terms of pacing, it was just.
00:14:09:39 – 00:14:30:59
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but it depends on property now, doesn’t it? It depends on property. We’re talking about Tolkien, who is, you know, as geeks, as fantasy nerds. Tolkien is in us, right? It’s it’s our lifeblood. You have another life blood in your DNA in Terry Brooks.
00:14:30:59 – 00:14:31:28
Jason Zapata
Yes.
00:14:31:28 – 00:14:40:38
Agent Palmer
And that’s an adaptation. You absolutely despised. I had to convince you to finish first season.
00:14:40:38 – 00:14:41:52
Jason Zapata
Yes.
00:14:41:57 – 00:14:43:07
Agent Palmer
And.
00:14:43:12 – 00:14:54:02
Jason Zapata
And now it’s only through the uttermost reluctance and compromise that I did that. That was a true showing of our friendship right there.
00:14:54:02 – 00:15:16:09
Agent Palmer
But it is such. It is such a different interpretation. However, I will say the first season follows the book fairly well. Maybe the characters aren’t as, personified exactly as you wanted them to, but as the story goes.
00:15:16:14 – 00:15:40:36
Jason Zapata
It was fairly accurate. The main kind of factions and characters were there, the timing of their meetings, the certain events that took place were kind of a mish mash. The characterizations were completely, well, I say completely off. But there is it was problematic for me and the dialog was atrocious. I’m sorry.
00:15:40:36 – 00:16:04:40
Agent Palmer
The dialog. Well, they simplified the dialog, but my point is. But but okay, I had come to this later in life, right? You introduced me to the Sword of Shannara trilogy. As we’re recording this probably like eight years ago. So, like, more recently. Yeah. Than than anything. Right? I didn’t grow up with it to that extent. So I’m coming at it as well.
00:16:04:40 – 00:16:19:14
Agent Palmer
Here’s. All right. I mean, I like the books I’m in. All right, let’s do this. And I my are my issues with the series start to stem from season two and three, which I think they’re just two.
00:16:19:14 – 00:16:20:29
Jason Zapata
I don’t think they got the three even.
00:16:20:37 – 00:16:27:37
Agent Palmer
But because two whatever. After the first season, which follows book number two of the initial trilogy.
00:16:27:37 – 00:16:35:43
Jason Zapata
Yeah, which is a very like that to interrupt. But just when you think about it, very interesting choice to start with two or not the no.
00:16:35:43 – 00:16:36:15
Agent Palmer
Makes sense.
00:16:36:15 – 00:16:46:47
Jason Zapata
Complete sense. Well, no, I’m just saying it’s interesting. I’m not saying it doesn’t make sense. I’m just saying it’s you’re saying basically in the middle of a trilogy of books, it’s kind of a, if anything, a bold decision to do that.
00:16:46:52 – 00:16:58:55
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, but now it’s about integrity, right? It’s about integrity and adoption. So we know MTV was developing this series. You can’t do the sword.
00:16:59:00 – 00:17:10:34
Jason Zapata
Sorry. And just the little chuckle at MTV developed thing that if that wasn’t a red flag amongst us Terry Brooks fans, I don’t know what was. But Duke, do continue. I’m sorry for.
00:17:10:34 – 00:17:22:30
Agent Palmer
Interrupting, but I’m just saying, like so the first one is a sausage party. There is like one half a character for half a moment that’s female basically. So you had.
00:17:22:37 – 00:17:25:48
Jason Zapata
Fellowship. It was the fellowship, I think, as well.
00:17:25:48 – 00:18:01:24
Agent Palmer
But they added in, in fellowship because we’ll jump back and forth here real quick. They added in a little bit more. Arwen, I guess to be fair, we don’t see Galadriel until Two Towers, right? So they just added in a little more Arwen, but it’s not to the same level in Sword and like The Hobbit, where they retell the whole story basically in 30s at the beginning of return of the King, you can kind of retell the story of the sword as you go, because and I’m a little fresher than you, but not by much.
00:18:01:24 – 00:18:23:40
Agent Palmer
I know you reread those books, but like in the second book, in the third book, they’re always retelling the story of The Sword of Shannara in that initial trilogy, that story, you could skip the first book and be fine, because they retell the story of the first book to other characters in the second and the third one, because it’s generational and it keeps going on.
00:18:23:40 – 00:18:49:12
Jason Zapata
It’s too thick. One of the very interesting things about that book series is it’s the odds. It’s that that particular family that down through each line, each generation, they have this epic quest, you know, and sometimes the leaves are there. And so all the work of doing a deep dive into all the characters of Shannara now, but, it’s it’s one of the very cool things about those books is like, you know, it’s oh, it’s all well, well, I’m sure it had children.
00:18:49:12 – 00:18:56:45
Jason Zapata
And now Jerome’s parents going on the quest and, you know, it’s it’s neat to see how that progresses as the, the multiple series goes on.
00:18:56:45 – 00:19:25:10
Agent Palmer
But my point is it’s a more practical series to start on book two. Yeah. Like you couldn’t start at The Two Towers. That would be a lot harder as an example. But my issue becomes after the first season, they’re in between books. The next season doesn’t go to book three. It goes to what would happen in between. And as it being geologically a map in front of you.
00:19:25:10 – 00:19:42:25
Agent Palmer
Right. Like we know at the end of the second book or at the beginning of the third book, we know kind of what happened in between the books. So they were writing like, well, they can go on adventures in between the books. So it’s not like just it’s not an interpretation interpretation.
00:19:42:31 – 00:19:43:57
Jason Zapata
It’s their interpretation. And it’s.
00:19:44:08 – 00:19:47:22
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s a very different kind of interpretation.
00:19:47:22 – 00:19:48:33
Jason Zapata
It’s not a different.
00:19:48:38 – 00:20:22:28
Agent Palmer
It’s not The Hobbit where he’s interpreting. I mean, Peter Jackson’s probably a little different, and I’ll grant you that as a case study. The Hobbit is odd because Peter Jackson said during production, this is my last chance at Middle-Earth. So of course he was going to go like, oh, well, there’s like 12 other volumes of things I can borrow from, and he’s stuffing it all in, but he’s coming from a place of fandom number one and number two, he’s trying to stuff as much canon as possible into these films.
00:20:22:35 – 00:20:46:21
Agent Palmer
I mean, listen, he took some artistic liberties, but everything is based on a short story or a chapter from one of those other books, right? For Shannara. After season one, they’re literally just, okay, we know the end result, like like, okay, at the end, we know that you have a kid, Zapata. That’s what we know. Yeah, but it’s we can do whatever we want as long as we make sure you have a kid.
00:20:46:23 – 00:20:53:30
Agent Palmer
Like to start the. And. And that’s where I can understand a purist has a bigger issue.
00:20:53:35 – 00:21:19:00
Jason Zapata
It’s. But ultimately, it’s also the quality of the work. So you can have a sliding scale of, you know, adaptation versus interpretation. You can have that sliding scale. The thing that, you know, overall that matters the most is the quality of the work. Now you’re defending Shannara. And I would say, well, if it was so good, we would have gone to season three where we we would still be on the air right now.
00:21:19:01 – 00:21:19:39
Jason Zapata
I mean, so good.
00:21:19:39 – 00:21:22:05
Agent Palmer
Well, that’s the argument for. Yeah, that’s the argument.
00:21:22:05 – 00:21:23:27
Jason Zapata
For I’m sorry it wasn’t.
00:21:23:27 – 00:21:28:13
Agent Palmer
Good. That’s the argument for Firefly though. It was it wasn’t good. No fire rated on Fox.
00:21:28:13 – 00:21:33:23
Jason Zapata
Loved to cancel on like that. There were the hatchet the hatchet men of, Anything good.
00:21:33:28 – 00:21:53:10
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean, the only reason Shannara even exists is Game of Thrones, which. There you go. Right? Game of Thrones is is probably, it’s not the Lord of the rings discussion or the Shannara discussion. There’s a scenario where, like, they were basing it on the novels until they ran out of novels, and then they’re like, all right, well, we’ll.
00:21:53:20 – 00:21:58:34
Jason Zapata
We’ll just that was pure adaptation. And then like, oh boy, what do we do now?
00:21:58:39 – 00:22:24:50
Agent Palmer
And you know, what’s funny is, okay, so I don’t know much of Game of Thrones, right. Like I gave, Song of Fire and Ice to chance and as a book, it just didn’t like, I, I was in love with it. I watched season one, and. And that’s all I know. Like, otherwise, all I know is I used to work with two massive Game of Thrones fans, and I was like, I don’t really care about spoilers.
00:22:24:50 – 00:22:47:09
Agent Palmer
I enjoy listening to the conversation, and it’s almost as if, you know, for the first time, popular culture got to experience nerd culture. And I’m not saying like, oh, but Star Wars and oh, but there’s no I’m talking for the first time mainstream normies. I’m not trying to offend anybody but normies. Right.
00:22:47:10 – 00:22:50:10
Jason Zapata
So that’s a triggering word you do. You should take that back.
00:22:50:12 – 00:22:50:51
Agent Palmer
I’m not.
00:22:50:51 – 00:22:53:22
Jason Zapata
On this podcast, of all things, drawing on normies.
00:22:53:22 – 00:23:13:36
Agent Palmer
Anyway, so. But they were experiencing what it’s like to take those deep dives. They were listening to podcasts, they were reading articles. They were like, even though they had read the Wikileaks wiki, they even though they had read even though a lot of the fans had read the books and knew what was going to happen, they were still invested in like the differences.
00:23:13:41 – 00:23:27:30
Agent Palmer
And then you come to a head and it’s like, well, Martin’s like done like. I mean, to be fair, there’s a part of me that feels like he’s like, well, I don’t, I don’t have I don’t have to finish it. Like, I don’t want to pick on him.
00:23:27:30 – 00:23:44:07
Jason Zapata
I have a friend who’s adamant that winds of Winter is already done, and I don’t want to laugh at him. And and and totally like, mocking crushes, dreams. But it’s like, yeah, I wouldn’t bet the farm on that. But,
00:23:44:12 – 00:23:59:24
Agent Palmer
I mean, he became a celebrity. It’s all right. So I will give Martin a pass because Terry Brooks didn’t become a celebrity before he finished the trilogy, and token didn’t become a celebrity. They became a celebrity.
00:23:59:24 – 00:24:00:12
Jason Zapata
Much after.
00:24:00:12 – 00:24:22:30
Agent Palmer
After. Right. Even it even if it became a bestseller or the trilogy was a bestseller. It was when it was done that people start and he’s kind of behind the eight ball, because we’re in this 24 seven news cycle where he’s writing these books, which are an older medium, like you don’t just you don’t just sit down for a weekend and write a Song of Fire and Ice, like, that’s not how it works.
00:24:22:30 – 00:24:41:33
Jason Zapata
I think there’s a danger when writers try to position themselves as rock stars. That’s not a good thing. I was a big fan of Patrick Rothfuss and his, The Name of the wind series, I believe. And I love books, by the way.
00:24:41:43 – 00:24:48:20
Agent Palmer
Not a not a series. Okay, I’m going to say this right now. I haven’t read either of the books, but I do know it’s a cult. All right.
00:24:48:20 – 00:24:49:43
Jason Zapata
From what I could. Yeah, it’s a cult.
00:24:49:43 – 00:25:06:33
Agent Palmer
Everybody tells me, and I listen, it’s on a shelf in this house that I’m recording, and. Right, the name of the wind is here. I will at some point pick it up. But the more people who have read it go like you. Oh, it’ll it’ll it’ll change.
00:25:06:46 – 00:25:09:49
Jason Zapata
Well, I think that that’s such hyperbole, but fine.
00:25:09:49 – 00:25:23:10
Agent Palmer
But everybody like, it’s such a cult like. I mean, I don’t even say like you have to read Lord of the rings. If I think you’ll like it, I suggest it. But anybody who I’ve run into that, it’s like a cult. With that book.
00:25:23:10 – 00:25:47:22
Jason Zapata
It’s very good. The point I would make is with, again, writers trying to be rock stars is Rothfuss is trying to, you know, ship this out and try to get it televised or, you know, get his baby out there, but the baby’s not even out of the womb yet, like, the story is not done. And meanwhile, like, how many fans have, like, you know, literally like to sat around like, okay, it’s this year, this year is going to be the year.
00:25:47:22 – 00:25:55:53
Jason Zapata
It’s going to come out the last book. Right? Right. And no, it’s just and God, it’s been what, how many years now? It’s it’s been a number of years.
00:25:55:59 – 00:26:27:43
Agent Palmer
But it takes me back to one of my favorite incomplete series, The Great and Secret Show is the book of the Art number one. Okay, by Clive Barker. Evansville is the book of Art part two. It doesn’t feel at the end without spoiling anything. It doesn’t feel like at the end of Ever Ville that it’s done. And I would love Barker to write the book of Art number three.
00:26:27:48 – 00:26:30:52
Agent Palmer
He’s already a rock star. Okay, well.
00:26:30:52 – 00:26:49:59
Jason Zapata
Depending on how you interpret the book, I mean, I haven’t read, I don’t I’m pretty sure I didn’t read. Ever felt like too much to your disappointment, I it’s one of those things on the to do list. You got me reading Dayton, man. So like, I, I love Dayton, so yeah, this just there’s only so many things I can read and only so many things I can watch.
00:26:49:59 – 00:26:58:22
Jason Zapata
But I would say it really depends on how the book ends. If it leads to that third parter, you know, or if you’re too satisfied with, with the two.
00:26:58:37 – 00:27:20:46
Agent Palmer
I mean, I was satisfied with the great and Secret show for the longest time until I realized that that’s what Evansville was. And I was like, well, I have to, I have to, but I also know it was adapted into a good, the Great and Secret Show. Anyway, was adapted into a graphic novel, and I’ve, I’ve picked it up occasionally like maybe and, you know, on sale or but I’ll never buy it.
00:27:20:46 – 00:27:36:49
Agent Palmer
And other than flipping through the pages and be like, oh, I know what that would seen, that is what I like. I don’t I don’t want it, I mean, it, it’s it gets to a different discussion, which is there are there have to like and I probably would have said, I don’t know if I would have said Lord of the rings, right.
00:27:37:02 – 00:27:57:14
Agent Palmer
I had back Lord of the rings. I’d seen Rankin Abbass Hobbit. Like I wouldn’t have said, like, don’t touch Talokan. I wouldn’t have said it like it had been touched. It had been done. Well, I don’t want anybody to touch the great and secret show. I don’t. In fact, to be fair, I would have said the same thing about American Gods, which is why I haven’t watched the series yet.
00:27:57:14 – 00:28:18:52
Agent Palmer
Because to me, American Gods is a like we have, especially for those of us that are readers. And I grant you, not everybody is a reader, and I’m not picking on you if you’re not. But if you are, we have special relationships with certain books. Oh yeah, for me, do not bring the great and secrets show to any screen.
00:28:19:00 – 00:28:33:51
Agent Palmer
Big. Don’t touch it. Just don’t touch it. It’s it’s a book. Leave it alone, leave it alone. And there are things, as we talk about these other ones that like. All right, maybe you can see it. Right. But they’re not all created equal.
00:28:33:55 – 00:28:41:00
Jason Zapata
Oh, no. And I think that’s a wonderful line to say that all adaptations are not created equal. Like, well.
00:28:41:05 – 00:29:06:57
Agent Palmer
Let’s get into a couple. So we talked about Game of Thrones, talked about Shannara, talked about talking. I’ve seen half of a Harry Potter movie and I haven’t read any of the books, but as I understand it, those are done very well. Yeah. All around. Right. Like they were handled very well. Chronicles of Narnia is very different by comparison than Harry Potter or Game of Thrones, right?
00:29:07:04 – 00:29:30:55
Agent Palmer
Because Chronicles of Narnia had been done before, like before the mainstream. Like, you know, whoever did it in the last decade and we got a couple films out of it. It had been done by the BBC maybe once or twice. I don’t know how many times, but it had been done right. So it was not. It’s kind of like the Bakshi doing token like it.
00:29:30:56 – 00:29:42:19
Agent Palmer
It had been done when Peter Jackson takes it over, so I guess it softens up the ground. So anybody who was like, don’t touch this. And you see at least an honest interpretation.
00:29:42:19 – 00:29:43:25
Jason Zapata
Yeah. So mine has.
00:29:43:25 – 00:29:57:39
Agent Palmer
Or a straight adaptation. All right. I’m a little bit. So that’s a little bit different. But like in order to have this discussion we have to get out of fantasy. Because fantasy is not the only place where the novel comes first.
00:29:57:39 – 00:29:58:16
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:29:58:21 – 00:30:04:55
Agent Palmer
So I wanted to ask you about a couple things. Sure. Did you read Jurassic Park?
00:30:05:00 – 00:30:07:36
Jason Zapata
I did not read Michael Ryan growing up.
00:30:07:47 – 00:30:13:25
Agent Palmer
Have you read it since? Do you have an interest for some of the.
00:30:13:25 – 00:30:20:01
Jason Zapata
More corporate kind of intrigued? It doesn’t get as much play in the movies. That kind of fascinates me.
00:30:20:06 – 00:30:42:49
Agent Palmer
So like, because I and I’ve, I mean, Jurassic Park is on my shortlist of I’m going to read this in 2020 because I’ve been meaning to get back to the source material. I read that book when I was way too young. So, I am way too young. Meaning like I was 12, right? So while I kind of.
00:30:42:49 – 00:30:44:41
Jason Zapata
Could take away, I was like, oh, dinosaurs.
00:30:44:41 – 00:31:10:35
Agent Palmer
No, no. My take takeaway was I kind of understand the science, right? Like, I understand there were like, there’s a scene I remember vividly. The only scene I remember from the book is like, doctor Grant injects a rat, an egg. Because raptors, not really. Carnivores are more like scavengers. And he injects an egg with some kind of something, and the raptor eats it and they escape because it knocked out.
00:31:10:35 – 00:31:24:22
Agent Palmer
There’s something like that, right? This look, it’s been. Yeah. I’m two decades removed from 12. All right. So. But but but I do know that there’s a lot of ingen corporate corporate intrigue.
00:31:24:27 – 00:31:25:14
Jason Zapata
Right.
00:31:25:19 – 00:31:36:15
Agent Palmer
And so I want to reread the books because I also know that, like, like I got a kick out of Ingen being such a bigger part of the Jurassic World.
00:31:36:15 – 00:31:40:14
Jason Zapata
Series, the movies to it, that’s that part of it’s getting a lot more play.
00:31:40:14 – 00:32:00:12
Agent Palmer
Now, and I, I for one, really like that. I want to see how much was from the source material because we know we’re getting the next the Or what. I’m hoping. Listen, I know everybody said like, oh, don’t be the dead horse. I’m all right with it. Like, give me dinosaurs. I’m fine. But like, I do hope like we ended at three, like three’s enough, like I get where you’re going.
00:32:00:12 – 00:32:25:12
Agent Palmer
I really like where they’re going. But that’s a book that I really liked even without understanding it. And hey, you know what? I fell in love with the movies. Like, just absolutely fell in love with the movie. But you have to talk about it because there are some vast differences between book and movie. They’re like vast.
00:32:25:12 – 00:32:48:01
Jason Zapata
Differences. But again, the thing the big takeaway was it was an amazing movie. The choices that they made contributed to the movie just being great. They took, you know, the best parts from the book. They they inserted it in the film in such a way that it was, it was a spectacle, you know, they got the most bang out of their buck.
00:32:48:06 – 00:33:16:29
Agent Palmer
All right. Well, let me bring to you the most recent spectacle, what I will call the most recent spectacle, from book to movie. Ready Player One. And what’s more fascinating about Ready Player One is the turnaround. Ready Player One comes out and becomes a bestseller and basically overnight gets a movie deal, like immediately. Did you read it? First of all?
00:33:16:29 – 00:33:19:25
Jason Zapata
No, I didn’t read it. I know you were pushing me to read it. Haven’t read.
00:33:19:25 – 00:33:29:24
Agent Palmer
It. Yeah, I mean, that’s probably what I’m buying you this year at some point for some reason, like, I don’t buy you gifts, really. I just buy you stuff that I like. You need to have this.
00:33:29:29 – 00:33:30:41
Jason Zapata
That’s practical application.
00:33:30:41 – 00:33:32:50
Agent Palmer
And that’s how I got you into dating. Yeah.
00:33:33:01 – 00:33:37:33
Jason Zapata
We don’t as friends. We’ve never just gone ourselves. Things that just have no purpose.
00:33:37:33 – 00:34:08:27
Agent Palmer
And and it also hasn’t been like, here’s a holiday gift. Here’s a birthday gift. No. I literally went like, yeah, you need to. I’m getting you into dating. Here’s a, here’s a copy. Yeah. So all right. Well, ready player one is going to be on the list then. But that’s one where there are decisions made in pacing. Because what you can accomplish in 90 minutes on a movie screen, you might be able to get away with, you know, this is a day and this is a day.
00:34:08:27 – 00:34:26:06
Agent Palmer
And then a few weeks later, right? But you you can’t go into every little detail. And yes, you can go back on Agent palmer.com and see that I had some issues with that film, but that was written 30 minutes after, like I, I left the theater, I came home first.
00:34:26:06 – 00:34:26:49
Jason Zapata
Impressions, I.
00:34:26:49 – 00:34:32:37
Agent Palmer
Was steaming and I was like, all right, all right. I mean, I own it, I’ve watched it again. You know, it’s not.
00:34:32:41 – 00:34:35:59
Jason Zapata
That lingering purist and you just had to get the pen out.
00:34:35:59 – 00:34:59:42
Agent Palmer
I need to, yeah, like I need to vent like you. Listen, if you want to talk to me about whether you should watch a movie, do not ask me 30 minutes after I’ve watched the film. Yeah, ask me a year later when I own it. I’ve watched it. I it’s it’s not just a big screen spectacle, but there’s a part of me that I think will always be a purist, like, I guess I just you’re.
00:34:59:43 – 00:35:00:07
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:35:00:08 – 00:35:20:29
Agent Palmer
I can’t get away from some of those things, but I can and I this is. Do you think it has any difference at all whether it’s a series or a film? Right. Like if they had made Game of Thrones not an HBO series you.
00:35:20:32 – 00:35:22:32
Jason Zapata
Like, you could never do it in a movie, man.
00:35:22:37 – 00:35:29:58
Agent Palmer
But my point is, do we treat adaptations differently based on how they get adapted?
00:35:30:03 – 00:36:10:02
Jason Zapata
Yeah, I would say one of the, my favorite examples would be the the prequel trilogy for Star Wars and, The Clone Wars, that animated series that came out. Like, you have this material that’s set up by the movies, and then you have, I think, a couple years down the road, the animated series comes out. Yep. And what they do over the course of that series, they’ve fleshed out that world in that time and unfortunately, with just having the not only the three movies to build up that that bad galaxy in that conflict, you’re not really able to do it to service it needs.
00:36:10:07 – 00:36:36:55
Jason Zapata
So George Lucas got a lot of flak for those movies, but what he set up and what came afterwards was really good stuff. So it just needed the right medium to make it really shine. I don’t think you can. It’s just too and and I think that even the new movies are suffering from the same thing. It’s just so much stuff to, to explain and well, it’s you just can’t really do it justice in a movie format.
00:36:36:55 – 00:36:47:35
Jason Zapata
I would love like a book series or, or if they, they come afterwards with, you know, like an animated series for what’s, you know, I love see Ray and anything I, I, I’m, I’m quite a fan of
00:36:47:46 – 00:37:04:15
Agent Palmer
Well, I guess the, the, the issue then becomes we’re all right with adaptation and we’re all right with guessing too. Right? Because while there are millions upon millions of pages written about the Star Wars universe, that whether you argue that they’re canon or not.
00:37:04:15 – 00:37:04:56
Jason Zapata
Like all the.
00:37:05:07 – 00:37:06:51
Agent Palmer
Good, it exists, it exists.
00:37:06:51 – 00:37:11:19
Jason Zapata
According to the mouse, it doesn’t. And the mouse decides all, but it exists.
00:37:11:19 – 00:37:35:02
Agent Palmer
And my point is, you don’t have to make stuff up. Somebody’s already done that, and you can read it and just determine the validity of it versus, you know, we go back to The Shannara Chronicles, especially after that first season. They’re making it up, but they’re literally like, they’re it like, there is you can’t read a bunch of novelizations and get a bigger feel for the world.
00:37:35:09 – 00:37:57:10
Agent Palmer
All you can do is keep reading ahead, which is it’s all a timeline. So it’s all either in the future or the past. You can’t build up the in between with anything more than what you’ve already established in the two adjoining books before and after, but I feel like there’s a lot more that can go wrong. It’s like a no win situation, right?
00:37:57:21 – 00:38:21:00
Agent Palmer
You can take three movies in the prequels and go build up two fast and two quickly, and you can make decisions based on, well, the economic impact of some of those decisions. With us seeing the, you know, political spectrum in Star Wars was too much, but it has an impact on the story. Maybe it should be downplayed or whatever.
00:38:21:00 – 00:38:29:15
Agent Palmer
But like you have to make decisions. You get night at the time, you get 90 minutes, now you get two hours. Still, you only have a finite amount of time.
00:38:29:15 – 00:38:31:14
Jason Zapata
During your day catheter folks.
00:38:31:19 – 00:38:38:38
Agent Palmer
Versus you have a series where you can expound on a little bit. If you want to, you can expound on more.
00:38:38:43 – 00:39:06:23
Jason Zapata
Yeah. And again it goes towards whether or not how much of a passion project it is. And if you have the right people involved in that project. Like again with Lord of the rings casting, soundtrack, setting, the actual location where they film New Zealand, all of these things came together to make that again, one of the best adaptations ever, one of the best movies ever.
00:39:06:28 – 00:39:25:59
Jason Zapata
Now you know you’re working with something like a property with Star Wars. It’s it’s it’s frustrating because in the OG series you had more practical effects, you had more puppetry, you had more practical set designs. The newer films, it’s more.
00:39:25:59 – 00:39:42:04
Agent Palmer
CGI, but they’re going to it like, I mean, that was the big thing I remember when prior to The Force Awakens being release, they made a big deal about the fact that they were going to do practical effects when possible. Not, not.
00:39:42:04 – 00:39:43:50
Jason Zapata
They’re trying to go within budget.
00:39:43:50 – 00:40:06:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Just when possible. Yeah. So we’ll spend a little bit more money to make the real puppet if we can. Yeah. And you know, I think that in Star Wars that’s important because there’s an authenticity that’s required of what we’re seeing on the screen. It doesn’t exist in everything. I don’t think that you need to do that in.
00:40:06:57 – 00:40:17:00
Agent Palmer
I don’t think it’s a a rule for like all of Hollywood. I don’t think you need to go practical. Listen, if you can save a few bucks, it depends on the world you’re building, too.
00:40:17:08 – 00:40:36:26
Jason Zapata
Yeah, yeah. Especially with certain established characters. There’s a big difference between practical effects job of the Hutt and CG Jabba the Hutt. And I think anyone who has seen the newer movies and the what was that? The Greek Hutt? Sorry, I don’t even know how they went.
00:40:36:28 – 00:40:37:43
Agent Palmer
Han walks over.
00:40:37:43 – 00:40:42:05
Jason Zapata
That. Yeah. That was oh, it’s cringey. It was crunchy. It was bad.
00:40:42:10 – 00:41:14:38
Agent Palmer
All right, well, let’s go on to a better adaptation from panel to screen. And that is the MCU even. And DC for that matter. We’ll just go comic book movies in general because I feel like given the source material and you can argue, you know, via movie and via character and via who’s playing the character, all of Batman like how authentic it is, but I mean, most of them.
00:41:14:42 – 00:41:22:10
Agent Palmer
And it goes to your point. Most of them seem like passion projects for the people that were in them, or at least the directors and the writers.
00:41:22:17 – 00:41:23:10
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:41:23:15 – 00:41:26:48
Agent Palmer
And, you know, they did all right.
00:41:26:52 – 00:41:48:15
Jason Zapata
And certain projects. Yes and no. Anything, especially with Nolan’s trilogy. Oh. Wow. Like you could tell Nolan came out swinging like he wanted this to be the quintessential, superhero, trilogy. And it’s it’s it’s hard. It’s hard to beat it. Say what you will about the background. You know, it’s,
00:41:48:20 – 00:42:15:18
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, I guess the question ones end up being like, well, Tim Burton didn’t do bad. I mean, like, everybody talks about Nolan’s trilogy, but like, Burton start. I mean, we we he did two films. But we could say that that first one is damn near as perfect as of of a debut for a superhero film as ever.
00:42:15:18 – 00:42:31:31
Agent Palmer
There was, especially when you consider that as a character, that was a character that was camp like pure camp with like, that’s I mean, outside of the panel, 66 kind of took all the seriousness away from Batman.
00:42:31:31 – 00:42:54:56
Jason Zapata
Adam West yeah, the television series, you know, Burt Ward, his Robin. Yeah. And it’s one of the funny things that, you know, some of the more theater centric, people I talked to say it’s, it’s the new kind of like Macbeth. Like, who are you having playing Macbeth? Who’s playing Duncan? Who’s? And that’s the fun thing, because everyone’s going to have their favorite Macbeth now.
00:42:54:56 – 00:43:03:07
Jason Zapata
Like, everyone’s like, oh, Christian Bale is my favorite Batman. Oh, no, no, it’s Michael Keaton. You know, you got to go. Michael Keaton for Batman. Val Kilmer I don’t you know who.
00:43:03:07 – 00:43:04:35
Agent Palmer
Is your favorite?
00:43:04:40 – 00:43:19:52
Jason Zapata
That’s tough. If I had a gun pressed to my head, I’d have to go with Christian Bale. All right? Like, I think his Bruce Wayne and his Batman were very good. Don’t like the background. Like, I think they should just.
00:43:19:52 – 00:43:44:57
Agent Palmer
Hey, listen, you you you be you, man, I mean, I, I’m a Keaton man all the way, right? Yeah. And but but. Right. So that’s from comics to big screen. But you can say the same thing about bond, right. Which is from novel to screen and I don’t know, it’s very odd, right. Because we have a finite amount of James Bond novels, kind of like Game of Thrones, right?
00:43:44:57 – 00:43:57:03
Agent Palmer
Like we’ve gone past the source material as far as James Bond goes. We have. And, you know, Fleming didn’t write GoldenEye. Are you kidding me?
00:43:57:04 – 00:43:57:57
Jason Zapata
No, he did not.
00:43:58:06 – 00:43:58:33
Agent Palmer
And I.
00:43:58:35 – 00:43:59:02
Jason Zapata
Certainly did not.
00:43:59:02 – 00:44:00:59
Agent Palmer
But I but I but I thoroughly love.
00:44:00:59 – 00:44:22:50
Jason Zapata
It, which is a complete interpretation. It’s this this is the only thing about that movie is James Bond and kind of like the spy universe that he exists. And you still get MI6, you still get em. You still have all of that sugar cube absolute. Yeah, but but beyond that, it’s just a whole new take on and, it’s a new story.
00:44:22:50 – 00:44:41:40
Jason Zapata
It’s it’s it’s new. And it was amazing. It was so good. Pierce Brosnan, James Bond, like, you know, up until recently with Daniel Craig, like, you know, you look back, he was like, okay, you know Bronson’s up there, man. It’s like it’s it’s hard to figure out who’s on top. Like who who gets the top pick there. You know?
00:44:41:44 – 00:44:53:51
Agent Palmer
I mean, listen I know a lot of like when you talk about bond purists, a lot of them say Roger Moore. But you know, I like I like Connery, I like Brosnan and I Craig Craig’s lower in my list.
00:44:53:53 – 00:44:56:21
Jason Zapata
I know. Yes, he is higher in mind.
00:44:56:26 – 00:44:59:35
Agent Palmer
But have you read any of the books?
00:44:59:40 – 00:45:03:36
Jason Zapata
Dear God, I think maybe Casino Royale but that’s.
00:45:03:41 – 00:45:23:39
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean it leads me to this question. Do you want to I mean we talked a little bit about Jurassic Park. Right. We talked a little bit about Ready Player One. You, you know most of the other things you’ve read a little bit of. Right. I know you and I went to the same early education places like I was forced to read The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe.
00:45:23:44 – 00:45:48:40
Jason Zapata
Yeah. That’s the one thing I’ll say about our our school, because we you I don’t know if the, the internet knows this, but we both went to the same school. We did. Yes. And, I would say their reading program was amazing. Like, you know, I don’t know what’s happening now, but I know for damn sure that, in terms of what I was, you know, made to read, I read some really good stuff.
00:45:48:40 – 00:45:52:19
Jason Zapata
So, you know, tip of the tip of the hat, you know, for.
00:45:52:19 – 00:46:09:01
Agent Palmer
That and that. I’m just saying, like, we’ve talked about source materials. Do you want to go back for the ones you’ve missed and read the source material? I know, you know, maybe not. Like I’m not talking like Game of Thrones Harry Potter level. I’m talking Ready Player one.
00:46:09:01 – 00:46:09:57
Jason Zapata
It’s one book.
00:46:09:57 – 00:46:30:46
Agent Palmer
Yeah. You know what I mean? Like in that scenario or like James Bond, go check out another book. Like, does that exist? Like, do you see these property or or do you just see a movie? Right. Like I mean, one of them, I haven’t read the book, but like Red Sparrow, I saw that movie and I went, I kind of be interested in the book if it exists, and it does.
00:46:30:46 – 00:46:43:44
Agent Palmer
That one’s based off of a book. Like do you watch films and you go like, do you wait like till the end of the credits and see, like based on a novel by like, and does that make you want to go pick it up ever.
00:46:43:48 – 00:47:05:20
Jason Zapata
It depends in terms of my if it really depends on if it grabs me, if I really like it, Imma may get me interested in taking a look at it. The genre too. Like sometimes I just go to see a movie because I hear good things about it. It may not be a genre I typically associated with something I’m going to read, you know?
00:47:05:25 – 00:47:09:52
Jason Zapata
Besides Dane, I’m not really a big spy guy in terms of, you know, reading novels.
00:47:09:57 – 00:47:27:54
Agent Palmer
That’s fair. Yeah, I mean, I there’s a part of me that wants to get back into the bond because I know a little bit about Fleming, and I think it would be very interesting in the era, an age we are in the modern era, the modern age, to go back and read something written in the 60s, Cold War.
00:47:27:59 – 00:47:36:46
Agent Palmer
Yeah, not even I’m not even thinking Cold War. I’m thinking like, you know, pre women’s movement, like, boy, this is going to be very interesting.
00:47:36:50 – 00:47:54:27
Jason Zapata
Yes, yes. And that, that, that has such, so much play and so much it makes things very interesting because you and I were talking about this before, about Lord of the rings. Now, if they were to make sure the rings now, I can tell you.
00:47:54:36 – 00:47:56:04
Agent Palmer
They’re going to gender swap a character.
00:47:56:13 – 00:48:01:15
Jason Zapata
Possibly. I just think Arwen is going to be like there the whole time now. I think she’s going to be.
00:48:01:15 – 00:48:08:27
Agent Palmer
So you don’t think, okay. Because I mean, that’s the thing that we end up with in terms, listen.
00:48:08:32 – 00:48:10:56
Jason Zapata
You see a lot more of her and she’s gonna be fighting a lot more.
00:48:10:56 – 00:48:38:01
Agent Palmer
And I listen, I, I don’t have an issue with strong women. I, my issue is, can’t we come up with some original characters for them? Like I my issue with gender swapping is I feel like it takes away from the character. You’re changing and you’re saying that you couldn’t come up with anything better. Like I’m not against listen, I’m not against it either.
00:48:38:01 – 00:48:59:43
Agent Palmer
But what I am saying is, like when you say we’re going to have a female James Bond, you can’t come up with a female. You can’t originally create a female spy of that level. You have to say, well, we’ll just make James Bond a woman like. And I have an issue with that because now now we’re back to interpretation.
00:48:59:43 – 00:49:11:16
Agent Palmer
Yes. Well, it’s just a character. It’s just a badass character. Their gender has absolutely nothing to do with it. And I mean, for a lot of characters that it does, it it.
00:49:11:16 – 00:49:16:09
Jason Zapata
Matters. Yes it does, it does.
00:49:16:14 – 00:49:27:04
Agent Palmer
So I thought you were going to say that if we redo Lord of the rings now, you know Legolas. Legolas is a woman because that’s the easy swap, right? Like.
00:49:27:09 – 00:49:31:51
Jason Zapata
I think a lot of, Orlando Bloom fangirls out there. I’d be very angry, and I miss that right now.
00:49:31:51 – 00:49:34:39
Agent Palmer
Listen, they still have Pirates of the Caribbean.
00:49:34:44 – 00:50:01:20
Jason Zapata
I you can’t take that away from them. Legolas was, again, that cast, those, John Rhys-Davies, Viggo Mortensen and, Orlando Bloom in the those three. All right, I want to MVP’s. MVP’s. But I will say real quick, just to keep on topic with, with Lord of the Rings The Hobbit of all things you were talking about how to how they would try to break up sausage fest to the elf.
00:50:01:20 – 00:50:01:53
Agent Palmer
Sure.
00:50:01:53 – 00:50:06:21
Jason Zapata
Brand new interpretation. Interpretation. They brought a brand new character in the kind of.
00:50:06:26 – 00:50:10:59
Agent Palmer
Does exist in the universe in the books, but not along that story.
00:50:10:59 – 00:50:11:46
Jason Zapata
No, no.
00:50:11:52 – 00:50:13:49
Agent Palmer
Or even that timeline for that matter.
00:50:13:54 – 00:50:17:49
Jason Zapata
Evangeline Lilly I believe later. And wow, wait.
00:50:17:53 – 00:50:45:11
Agent Palmer
One of listen, I mean there is starting. You are starting an especially with a Lord of the rings series. On the way there are a select few actors that are starting to bridge multiple universes, and, universe building is in people, so that’s all they want. But I want to take a left turn and talk to you about an interpretation because it’s not an adaptation.
00:50:45:11 – 00:50:46:36
Jason Zapata
Okay.
00:50:46:41 – 00:50:57:31
Agent Palmer
Of a very, very, very classic read that you and I both have a soft spot for. I don’t know how many people have read Beowulf.
00:50:57:36 – 00:50:59:16
Jason Zapata
Oh my god, Beowulf.
00:50:59:16 – 00:51:32:25
Agent Palmer
But both of his classic literature and you and I, we grew up watching B-movies. And when we found Beowulf, starring Christopher Lambert, that was like the pinnacle as far as fantasy, I mean, Peter Jackson’s one and the same to us as far as B-movie horror, it’s dead alive. But that Beowulf is something that I own because we kept watching it over like we couldn’t get enough of it.
00:51:32:25 – 00:51:53:01
Agent Palmer
It was. And it’s not. It’s definitely and it’s not an adaptation by any stretch. That’s an interpretation. That’s I read this book and went, all right. Okay. I’m going to keep the like I’ll keep the outline, but, I’m not going to fill it in with anything remotely close to the source material.
00:51:53:06 – 00:52:02:41
Jason Zapata
But it was it was craft macaroni and cheese. Cheese. But it was, it was. The cheese was so good you didn’t want to say no to the cheese.
00:52:02:52 – 00:52:13:09
Agent Palmer
All I’m saying is we’re not snobs here like we do enjoy some of the rough interpretations as well. It depends on the source material. It’s also why.
00:52:13:09 – 00:52:31:43
Jason Zapata
It’s taste to like I it’s a it depends on you got to know what you’re getting, what your were you’re rolling into. If you’re going to like posit this as you know, this is this epic. You know it’s going to be this epic film and it’s this and you’re trying to posit something is, you know, a great thing.
00:52:31:47 – 00:52:50:35
Jason Zapata
It better be a great thing. You know, if you’re going to play a certain role and its role is hyped up and you just stink at it, George Clooney, Batman, and he he’s owned up to is like, yeah, I was the worst Batman ever. And he’ll he’ll even say that in person. It’s, you know, thank God he’s honest about it.
00:52:50:40 – 00:53:08:23
Jason Zapata
But, I think it’s all about expectation. And the bottom line. Is this good or is it bad and being honest about it? And then being satisfied with that result, they will. Hey, it’s cheesy. It’s pretty bad. But I kind of watch it.
00:53:08:25 – 00:53:23:19
Agent Palmer
Well that one. Yeah. That one. Yeah I mean I, I don’t, I can’t vouch for any of the other versions that are out there, but for that one. Absolutely. And listen, the same goes for like the classics of Dracula and Frankenstein. I’m sure there are faithful.
00:53:23:19 – 00:53:27:00
Jason Zapata
Adaptation Christopher Lee versus Bela Lugosi, you know.
00:53:27:00 – 00:53:38:22
Agent Palmer
Well, there are these faithful adaptations, but there’s also rough interpretations like Dracula, it’s 3000, 2000, whatever the. But what was the one where he was a rock star?
00:53:38:27 – 00:53:50:42
Jason Zapata
That was that wasn’t Dracula. That was the vampire Lestat. Okay. And that was the. Oh, that’s. We could totally do such a dive on that. It’s a separate. It’s three dead.
00:53:50:44 – 00:53:53:07
Agent Palmer
Do you want, do you want, do you want you want a moment?
00:53:53:11 – 00:54:16:31
Jason Zapata
I if you would allow me a moment, sir, if you allow me a moment. The Anne Rice original trilogy of her vampires. Great stuff. Like really good stuff. The vampire Lestat, one of the more epic vampires in literature. In several of her books. Amazing character.
00:54:16:36 – 00:54:18:07
Jason Zapata
In terms of the movies that.
00:54:18:07 – 00:54:25:26
Agent Palmer
Sigh. Oh my God. Like, I feel like that. Sigh. Like says, I don’t think you need to say anything. Like, everybody can appreciate what you just did.
00:54:25:26 – 00:54:52:12
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Interview with a vampire. Amazing, amazing. Again, like fine mix of the adaptation and interpretation. Like in terms of casting decisions, in terms of the pacing of the story, you know, because with interview, it’s more through the vampire Louis’s perspective. And you have a lot of Lestat in there. So it was kind of interesting how they kind of balanced that, Queen of the damned was that’s really on the other scale of things.
00:54:52:12 – 00:55:13:11
Jason Zapata
That’s Sicilian in kind of an interpretation. And then again, there was a lot of chest dialog and, and pacing and there’s a lot of trust issues with, with what they were trying to do is a mish mash between the, Vampire Lestat and Queen of the damn two books crammed into one movie. It was never going to fly.
00:55:13:13 – 00:55:14:45
Jason Zapata
It’s just.
00:55:14:50 – 00:55:37:07
Agent Palmer
No, but we see that though there are times and I can’t. There aren’t any others that come to mind. But I know that people have smashed books together in order to make it work. Listen, I’ve never been there, right? But I do understand the concept of trying to sell anything and being told, all right, you get one shot at this.
00:55:37:07 – 00:56:01:42
Agent Palmer
And being like, well, I love these two books. I mean, I can always try and make both and listen, maybe the end result isn’t good, but I never I’m never going to question the initial like, oh, I want to do this because there are books that if I could, oh, I would absolutely do this. But like, you only get one shot.
00:56:01:42 – 00:56:22:52
Agent Palmer
All right. Well can I, can I add can I, can I pepper in some from this other book too. Which same character. Don’t worry. Like I’m not I’m not inventing stuff. Yeah I, I that I understand right. We talked about I got you into Dayton. Listen the movie Ipcress file and the book Ipcress File might as well not have anything in common.
00:56:22:57 – 00:56:29:44
Agent Palmer
Like they’ve got names in common. That’s it. And you see that where I.
00:56:29:49 – 00:56:31:35
Jason Zapata
But they’re both still very good.
00:56:31:46 – 00:56:51:35
Agent Palmer
They’re both still very good. But I don’t know if I would call one an interpretation. I guess it would be a loose interpretation. It’s definitely not a straight adaption. Yeah, but these things exist like they just do. And look, I mean, I would encourage everybody to read more. I feel like everybody should read more.
00:56:51:40 – 00:57:17:15
Jason Zapata
Yeah. And I think it’s one of those things where it’s like two really big things in play. With that, it’s time because everyone’s just like running around like crazy folk anymore, and it’s the mediums that are available. I think right now there’s to so much audiovisual stuff out there that’s, you know, you know, it’s the it’s our primary brains like, ooh, that’s colorful and it’s moving around.
00:57:17:15 – 00:57:19:19
Jason Zapata
I want to I want to look at that, you know.
00:57:19:19 – 00:57:45:45
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, I treat reading as a way to get some consume something without screen time because I, I don’t want to stare at a screen for every waking hour. And so all of my books, I mean, there have been a few exceptions occasionally as like a big victory for me as a blogger, I get like an advanced copy of a book, and sometimes it’s just a manuscript.
00:57:45:45 – 00:58:10:40
Agent Palmer
And here’s a PDF. So then I’ll read it digitally on like a Kindle. Right outside of that. And it’s only happened twice. Right? So but outside of those two times, unless it’s like a Kindle exclusive, which I’ve read a few, I buy the book. I physically want to see my bookmark make its journey through the pages. I want to hold it.
00:58:10:40 – 00:58:12:02
Jason Zapata
The tactile sensation.
00:58:12:02 – 00:58:28:48
Agent Palmer
There is something about unique. I have no issue with those people who say, I don’t have that kind of time, but I have a 20 minute commute and I will listen to an audiobook. By all means do that. And you know what? Whatever you do, don’t turn this podcast off to go listen to your audiobook.
00:58:28:53 – 00:58:31:37
Jason Zapata
Please plug.
00:58:31:42 – 00:58:49:30
Agent Palmer
But like I do, think people should get to the source material and listen. There are. I mean, don’t be fooled, there are novelizations of movies you’ve already seen. Don’t buy the novelizations in that scenario.
00:58:49:30 – 00:58:51:07
Jason Zapata
Just watch the movie.
00:58:51:16 – 00:59:03:48
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but if you can get to the source material, if you can go back and read Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton, do so like I, I highly encourage it’s different.
00:59:03:51 – 00:59:11:11
Jason Zapata
If you’ve made the mistake of watching the Shannara series on your telly by all means, please pick up the book.
00:59:11:16 – 00:59:30:55
Agent Palmer
I mean, listen, Terry Brooks would be very happy, and I would tell you to start with the sword, even though, as I stated, way too fervently like you don’t need the third, but it is good. Like there are things, right? And, as we record this, I’m two trilogies into my, Brooks.
00:59:30:55 – 00:59:32:35
Jason Zapata
Oh yeah. And this year you’re making.
00:59:32:40 – 00:59:37:07
Agent Palmer
And I’ve got the third one on my shelf. So that one I will get to.
00:59:37:09 – 00:59:39:32
Jason Zapata
The Voyage of the Jerle Shannara.
00:59:39:37 – 01:00:02:09
Agent Palmer
And I’m completely hooked. And it’s, it’s it’s light reading, like, for anybody who’s read Tolkien or is maybe intimidated by talking, he can be a bit wordy. Terry Brooks is like a breath of fresh air. It’s just here’s the story. And yes, there’s detail and he sets the scene. But you very rarely get the genealogy. He he’s not.
01:00:02:22 – 01:00:22:23
Agent Palmer
The genealogy is only mentioned when it’s important and it’s part of the story. Yeah. Not oh, and this is Jason. Son of son of son of. Yeah. Who. Whatever. Whatever. Like that’s what you get in token and I, I’ve read it and I still like it, but sometimes you need something a little lighter. And Terry Brooks is the perfect balance.
01:00:22:28 – 01:00:32:07
Agent Palmer
So by all means, go out there. Kit. Sword of Shannara is the first book of the first trilogy. Do yourself a favor, and if you’ve watched the series.
01:00:32:22 – 01:00:33:48
Jason Zapata
And you need therapy.
01:00:33:53 – 01:00:57:15
Agent Palmer
Which is book two, as we’ve mentioned, start with the original source material. It’ll it’ll there are some things that do make more sense that way. J yes. Do you have any suggestions of like, source material for anything remotely close to popular culture that people should check out?
01:00:57:19 – 01:01:24:26
Jason Zapata
That’s a good question. But I would say a lot of the, the things we’ve kind of discussed today touch on that, like, with my love of Anne Rice, Terry Brooks, those those series, Oh, it’s, I don’t think there’s any, like, fast or quick rule when it comes to that. Like, you know, any anything that I would really suggest, it’s just, you know, it’s just too much personal preference when it comes to that.
01:01:24:30 – 01:01:59:27
Agent Palmer
That’s fair. I will say that I think nine times out of ten, if you’ve seen it on the big screen and it is adapted from a novel, I’m not going to say the novel will be better because again, you don’t know having if you don’t know that the novel exists, you know, and you watch the credits at the end and it says, based on a novel by author X, then you’re not going to know if it was interpretation or adaptation, but there will always be more in the book, right?
01:01:59:27 – 01:02:25:03
Agent Palmer
This this is not refuted. There will very rare. There will never be a time when you go to the movies, watch a 90 minute thing based on a book and go, all right, well, I don’t need to read the book because there if you liked it, there’s more where that came from. Go to the source material. Yeah.
01:02:25:08 – 01:02:46:07
Agent Palmer
Something I realized that day and I only touched on that is very important to note is the romanticism of reading. We talked about the tactile feel of reading a real book, but there is also an intimacy. That book is read on the couch, in your bed, even in your bathroom and every other place imaginable. Reading a book is an intimate experience.
01:02:46:18 – 01:03:07:51
Agent Palmer
In fact, I would argue that it’s hard to get the same experience with audiobooks or listening to podcasts, because when you are reading, you are reading. You can’t read a physical book and wash the dishes, or lift weights at the gym or drive your car. That intimacy is another arrow in the quiver for why books are better than their adaptations or interpretations.
01:03:08:03 – 01:03:38:58
Agent Palmer
And at the same time, reading shouldn’t be intimidating. Just as Sean and I talked about fine art and the curating of your own personal collection in your house shouldn’t be unattainable. Neither should reading. And while you may choose Audible.com and audiobooks, it’s still better than just watching the film. Or at least you’ll get more out of it. And as the cases with fine art do not compare yourself with others, your taste in art is your taste in art, and the way you read is the way you read.
01:03:39:03 – 01:04:00:20
Agent Palmer
If I read three books in the time it takes you to read one, I’m not going to pick on you. We read at different speeds, we comprehend differently, and we have our own opinions as well. It also depends on the book. Some are easier to read than others. Don’t compare, just don’t. But to the idea that nerd culture is becoming popular culture.
01:04:00:25 – 01:04:21:47
Agent Palmer
Well, nerd culture has permeated the box office and our television screens, but there will always be hardcore nerds, and with each acceptance, we double down into ourselves. I’ll say it I’m a nerd slash geek elitist. It’s who I am. I’m as proud of that badge as I was back in the day, when I was just a plain old nerd or geek.
01:04:21:52 – 01:04:44:38
Agent Palmer
Taking ownership of our identity badges means they have no power in the hands of others. Now, before I get to the official business, I’d like to give out some book recommendations because what good is saying that reading is important if I’m not going to suggest a few things? We mentioned Clive Barker’s The Great and Secret Show during the episode, but Galilee is a wonderful novel.
01:04:44:42 – 01:05:11:31
Agent Palmer
Chuck Klosterman is a favorite author of mine as well, so I’d also suggest you start with his sex, drugs, and Cocoa Puffs. Douglas Copeland’s microservice is intriguing, and for anyone out there who is interested in the old space programs of Apollo and the moonshot era and the Space Race, Apollo 11 command module pilot Michael Collins autobiography, Carrying the Fire, is a fantastic read, despite the fact that he wasn’t even on the lunar surface.
01:05:11:35 – 01:05:32:59
Agent Palmer
And lastly, may I suggest that you ask your friends and family what they are reading this week’s guest spot, plus, my other friends and family have all recommended books. Use the people you know who read as your greatest resource. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode nine. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes.
01:05:32:59 – 01:05:51:40
Agent Palmer
And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join in the discussion. Let me know what you think. You can tweet the show at The Palmer Files. You can tweet myself at Agent Palmer, and you can reach this week’s guest, Jason Zapata at Zapata Wordsmith.
01:05:51:52 – 01:06:55:54
Agent Palmer
You can also visit his website. Jason zapata.com. The show email is The Palmer files at gmail.com. And don’t forget to visit Agent palmer.com to see what else I’ve got going on. You can also hear more of me in the meantime on our liner notes. A musical conversation podcast with host Chris Maier and my new gig as co-host of the podcast digest with Dan Lizette.
01:06:55:59 – 01:07:01:43
Agent Palmer
All right. Jason Zapata, do you have one final question for me?
01:07:01:47 – 01:07:12:01
Jason Zapata
I do, it’s diabolical. How bad of an interpretation were the Bay former films for you?
01:07:12:06 – 01:07:14:56
Agent Palmer
Oh. All right. So.
01:07:15:00 – 01:07:18:53
Jason Zapata
And who made you watch them?
01:07:18:58 – 01:07:22:05
Agent Palmer
You made me watch them.
01:07:22:10 – 01:07:23:04
Jason Zapata
Guilty as charged.
01:07:23:06 – 01:07:39:21
Agent Palmer
It’s funny, because I didn’t it because it was not necessarily, book or comic, you know, to to to screen, I didn’t that’s a screen to screen interpretation. It did see one yet.
01:07:39:21 – 01:07:40:14
Jason Zapata
The animation, I.
01:07:40:14 – 01:08:19:40
Agent Palmer
Know, but it didn’t make my list when I was coming prepared for this episode because I didn’t think about, you know, something old being redone, which like, listen, we’re doing that like they did. G.I. Joe was redone and, listen, that first there is I will say this because I just avoided them for like, ever, ever. And it took you and Mr. Chris Hughes, I was visiting you and you were like you had mentioned it to Chris, I think, and you were like, he hasn’t seen it.
01:08:19:45 – 01:08:23:06
Agent Palmer
And the two of you were like, you’re watching this. It was the two of you.
01:08:23:06 – 01:08:23:15
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
01:08:23:29 – 01:08:52:46
Agent Palmer
You, you you used each other as allies. You came together and you were like, now he’s watching this. And look at that first one. There is an authentic ness to that first one that still resonates. Now listen, it’s never going to replace for me. It’s never okay. There’s something it’s extremely poetic and, you know, operatic about that first one.
01:08:52:46 – 01:09:06:02
Agent Palmer
And it’s not just because it’s cheesy 80s music like Orson Welles as the villain, as Unicron will probably never be. He should be the number one animated villain of all time.
01:09:06:06 – 01:09:09:13
Jason Zapata
Do at a lofty I tell I know off the plane.
01:09:09:15 – 01:09:10:25
Agent Palmer
I know what I just said.
01:09:10:27 – 01:09:13:36
Jason Zapata
Oh, I know, I think the internet’s going to have problems with that.
01:09:13:36 – 01:09:28:46
Agent Palmer
I know, I know, but that is for me, like, that’s that’s where it is, tops. But you know what? That first one. Fine. You and I saw the second one, you know, in the theater we there and I that’s that’s where you start to lose me.
01:09:28:46 – 01:09:36:26
Jason Zapata
Yeah. It starts quality wise, you start to more in terms of the interpretation to a negative degree, except.
01:09:36:40 – 01:09:43:54
Agent Palmer
Except except right. There were four of those, right? Four. I don’t think they’re up to.
01:09:43:56 – 01:09:47:08
Jason Zapata
They were up to five. Now that’s what they did alone. Yeah.
01:09:47:08 – 01:10:23:19
Agent Palmer
So the first one was good. Second was like and then and then I really like seeing Grimlock on the screen. That’s like the only, the only moment of some of those latter ones that I enjoyed it all was seeing Grimlock because me Grimlock, me King is like, just. Yeah, but Bumblebee was a return to form because there’s this authentic ness to that first one where Witwicky character is not like a straight replacement for Daniel, but like he’s basically a stand in for Daniel.
01:10:23:24 – 01:10:33:35
Agent Palmer
So like, I understand all of that. It makes sense to me. Which is why when you get to Bumblebee, there again, there’s this authentic nature to it that when.
01:10:33:35 – 01:10:52:26
Jason Zapata
They went back to the. Yeah. And it’s the and it’s just the basing it in the 80s like what everyone’s been doing. Like it’s so funny. Everyone’s going back to the 80s. Like it’s just like 80s is just like this warm, fuzzy, fleecy bank blanket of nerdy goodness that everyone’s just going towards.
01:10:52:26 – 01:11:18:20
Agent Palmer
You’re forgetting that in the 90s, while we were doing some crazy, crazy stuff of our own, like people looked back at the 60s fondly. Well, they did the 60s. And it’s weird because the 60s will always be that weird, like point to this. But I think what we’re getting at is that the 80s have basically replaced the 60s as the blanket of like, comfort.
01:11:18:33 – 01:11:30:35
Jason Zapata
Yeah. And just to kind of circle back to Transformers, my just take away was I want to see Optimus Prime transform. You know, that was my that was my only take away. I was like, dude, that.
01:11:30:35 – 01:11:32:23
Agent Palmer
Was also the only thing you kept telling me.
01:11:32:23 – 01:11:49:38
Jason Zapata
Like, you’re like, you have to see it. Listen to see it, listen. And then the other thing, Peter Cullen voicing Optimus Prime and the line, freedom is the right of all sentient beings. In the Peter Cullen voice.
01:11:49:43 – 01:11:50:38
Agent Palmer
Dude, listen.
01:11:50:46 – 01:11:53:17
Jason Zapata
Price of admission alone, folks. Price of admission alone.
01:11:53:17 – 01:11:59:45
Agent Palmer
Peter Cullen coming back to be prime. Great. Like I wish. I wish Megatron was the same voice like that was.
01:11:59:45 – 01:12:00:16
Jason Zapata
That was a.
01:12:00:16 – 01:12:27:16
Agent Palmer
Big bother me. And Starscream two was close, but not really. It’s just but but but but but I didn’t need to see, like. Listen, it was all right. It’s cool. Right? I will admit it’s cool. I didn’t need it. I did not need to see Optimus Prime transform in in quote unquote live action. I didn’t need to. It was never like that was.
01:12:27:16 – 01:12:41:48
Agent Palmer
And that’s probably why I didn’t go seek out the first film in the theater to begin with, because I was like, yeah. And I watched him the last time he was in the theaters. I watched him die. Well, I don’t need to go see it again.
01:12:42:02 – 01:12:50:10
Jason Zapata
Well, I don’t know how many Transformers nerds we have listening right now, but I’m it’s prime dies like every other Tuesday. Like he he he he dies all the time.
01:12:50:15 – 01:12:57:16
Agent Palmer
I’m. You know what this is? We’re not doing this good. We’re not doing this. I will say, though, real quick, since we’re there.
01:12:57:16 – 01:12:57:51
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
01:12:57:55 – 01:13:06:42
Agent Palmer
I had no problem. And this is where I get into, like, double standards. The live action Ninja Turtles, I the.
01:13:06:42 – 01:13:10:55
Jason Zapata
First again. What’s the common denominator? Tell the audience the eight.
01:13:10:59 – 01:13:12:46
Agent Palmer
Well, I don’t.
01:13:12:51 – 01:13:13:47
Jason Zapata
They.
01:13:13:52 – 01:13:14:32
Agent Palmer
Know.
01:13:14:33 – 01:13:14:48
Jason Zapata
Like.
01:13:14:55 – 01:13:15:56
Agent Palmer
Oh the second.
01:13:15:56 – 01:13:18:35
Jason Zapata
One. Oh you’re talking about the original 90.
01:13:18:40 – 01:13:39:25
Agent Palmer
The 90s live action one I had no problem with. I liked it, I still watch it to this day. Again, there’s something authentic about it. I still haven’t watched the Bay ones because the turtles have. I won’t even like. Listen, there are three ways I like my Ninja Turtles in black and white on the page, as they were meant to be.
01:13:39:30 – 01:13:49:50
Agent Palmer
As the kids cartoon it turned into and that 90s live action. The first one before the ninja rap, right? Everything after that that’s very trendy. You know.
01:13:50:02 – 01:13:56:54
Jason Zapata
Like the ninja rap. Go ninja, go ninja go stop. And hey, how can you not?
01:13:57:00 – 01:14:03:41
Agent Palmer
This is this is why this is the problem with having somebody so close to you on this show. Because you know too much.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).