Agent Palmer

Episode 30 features Alan Jennings, author of the book The Pursuit of Fairness and perhaps the most motivated person on the planet.

Alan has done a lot to improve the bad to better, and we discuss that plus non-profit culture, community action, our shared love of baseball, and much much more.

During the episode we cover:

• Non-profit culture
• Helping people
• Class consciousness
• There’s always a bad guy
• Exploitation
• We can do better
• The Argument for Fairness
• Always being on
• Utilizing the spotlight
• Retirement
• Teaching
• Baseball
• And much more…

Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode

How To Make A Difference: A review of Alan Jennings’ The Pursuit of Fairness 

Get your copy of The Pursuit of Fairness: Fighting for What’s Right in a World That’s So Wrong by Alan Jennings

Suggested Reading Mentioned in the Episode

• Chris Kraft Takes You Behind the Origin of Mission Control in his Autobiography Flight: My Life In Mission Control
• “It’s What You Learn After You Know it All” by Earl Weaver is for Baseball Fans and Managers of all Types

Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.

–End Show Notes Transmission–

–Begin Transcription–

00:00:00:01 – 00:00:21:15
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent palmer.com Chris Kraft’s autobiography, flight, takes you behind the scenes of the creation of NASA’s Mission Control as we know it. Camp Cretaceous is fun for children of all ages and fans of the Jurassic canon, and I’m still not sure I can shake the impression that my favorite computing days are behind me. With windows XP and a very different internet.

00:00:21:20 – 00:01:15:15
Agent Palmer
This is The Palmer Files episode 30 with Alan Jennings, author of the book The Pursuit of Fairness and perhaps the most motivated person on the planet. Alan has done a lot to improve the bad to better, and we discussed that. Plus nonprofit culture, community action, our shared love of baseball, and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.

00:01:15:20 – 00:01:37:17
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 30th episode is Alan Jennings, author of The Pursuit of Fairness. Fighting for what’s right in a world that’s So wrong. Alan’s book, which I reviewed on Agent palmer.com, is part activist manifesto, part memoir, and part how to. And that’s a good portion of our discussion.

00:01:37:22 – 00:01:58:46
Agent Palmer
We talk about his activism and the nonprofit he runs. We talk about his life, how he got his start, and the chance encounters that luck and hard work provided for him. Plus, we discuss the inner goings on of the nonprofit world. If you like this episode, I encourage you to look at my review and perhaps grab a copy of his book if you’re looking for more of his story.

00:01:58:51 – 00:02:24:56
Agent Palmer
Editing this episode, I notice I have more thinking, pauses, and starts and stops in this episode than in most. And it’s not because of anything other than we are discussing intense topics. And furthermore, as the host, I have my beliefs, but I don’t want to be incendiary or lead the guest anywhere. Not that that would be possible. Alan is not so inclined to be misled or even led anywhere.

00:02:25:06 – 00:02:48:57
Agent Palmer
He does what he should, but these conversations happens. Despite my falling in line with almost all of what Alan believes in, are not easy at all. Nor should it be the tough calls, the tough times, the problem solving. It’s never going to be a 100% success rate, and that makes it difficult for someone like Alan. As an example, who wants to save everyone.

00:02:49:01 – 00:03:10:56
Agent Palmer
Before we get into it, remember that if you want to discuss this episode as you listen or after, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer or the show at the Palmer Files, you can get Alan’s book at most major retailers. You can email this show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings, including the review of Alan’s book on Agent palmer.com.

00:03:11:01 – 00:03:20:46
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s step into the batter’s box.

00:03:20:51 – 00:03:37:27
Agent Palmer
Alan, just to start off, I feel like not enough people understand the difference between for profit and non profit. And you’ve spent a long time in the sector. So I figured you would be able to educate people.

00:03:37:31 – 00:04:04:23
Alan Jennings
Non-profits were created as a vehicle to do things that for profits, won’t do or can’t do because they can’t make any money doing it or what government won’t do. And so they fill in the difference between the two. If you make a donation to a nonprofit, if you get a what’s, what’s called a 501 C3 status, that means this is a section of the inner Internal Revenue Code that that governs nonprofits.

00:04:04:24 – 00:04:26:26
Alan Jennings
It’s called section 501 C3. You have to apply for that status. The government, the IRS gives you that status. And what that enables you to do is a not pay taxes. And B, it gives the donor, an ability to deduct their contribution from their federal income taxes. It’s not a huge benefit, but but it is for some under certain circumstances.

00:04:26:26 – 00:04:45:41
Alan Jennings
So and nonprofits are allowed to make a profit. But if they make a profit on unrelated things, they have to pay taxes on it. If they make a profit doing what they do, they can keep it, but they can’t enrich them, their employees. So if you’re a nonprofit executive director and you make a ton of money, the IRS is going to flag that.

00:04:45:45 – 00:04:57:45
Agent Palmer
And when you say they do things that people can’t make money like, like for like a for profit, it doesn’t make money with it. Is it? It seems mean.

00:04:57:50 – 00:05:04:15
Alan Jennings
If somebody if people need food in your community, I know. And a for profit company is not going to make any money given away food.

00:05:04:17 – 00:05:05:15
Agent Palmer
Okay. Right.

00:05:05:20 – 00:05:11:04
Alan Jennings
Yeah. Or if you need health care for profit, I can’t make any money giving away health care. You know, those kinds of things.

00:05:11:08 – 00:05:20:30
Agent Palmer
And is it as altruistic? Or is it altruistic to say like, well, these are things that benefit the communities on a whole?

00:05:20:35 – 00:05:35:56
Alan Jennings
Well, that’s exactly what it’s supposed to be for now. Some people go into the nonprofit sector and they make as much money as they do in the not for profit sector. I’m not that kind of a person. I’ve deliberately depressed my salary because I do this work, because I think it’s important, not because I want to make any money doing it.

00:05:36:01 – 00:05:43:14
Alan Jennings
Now I have tons of tons of of peers in my field who have smaller organizations who make more money than I do. That’s okay.

00:05:43:20 – 00:05:53:13
Agent Palmer
Have you like is this something you always wanted to do, like to not not necessarily end up in the nonprofit sector, but help people? Yeah.

00:05:53:13 – 00:06:09:48
Alan Jennings
I it’s, Yeah, I mean, I, I bleed for people. I, I put myself in other people’s positions, you know, it’s a, it’s an affliction really. It’s, it’s a, it’s an oppressive kind of thing because if, you know, my mother used to always say, you know, the golden rule, do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

00:06:10:00 – 00:06:27:18
Alan Jennings
Well, I don’t want to suffer. So that means I can’t let other people suffer. So I’ve spent my life getting enough and getting in the way of people suffering, you know? So a bully picked on another when one of my friends picked up bullied another friend, I’d get in between them instead and stop the bullying. You know, I picked the underdog, football team.

00:06:27:18 – 00:06:45:04
Alan Jennings
I was a Colts fan. But I also had a second team. I was like the lousiest team in the league until they become the best team. And like the Dolphins, I like the Dolphins until they became Super Bowl champs in 72. And then I hated the Dolphins, you know, as I was a Colts fan. So. So I was the kind of guy that put myself in other people’s shoes and suffered with them.

00:06:45:04 – 00:06:51:25
Alan Jennings
And gosh, I hated suffering. So I, I would, you know, fight their battle with and for them, you know.

00:06:51:30 – 00:06:55:54
Agent Palmer
Did you get that from your parents. Like it. Like where does that come from?

00:06:55:59 – 00:07:20:44
Alan Jennings
Well, that’s a good question. My mother was very class conscious. She was not an intellectual. She was, She was just a humble, decent person. But she was she was appalled by wealth and felt that it was unfair. And so she instilled us a certain amount of class consciousness in me. And from a very young age. And so, you know, when you see people, you know, some people have got everything and other people have nothing, that’s just not right.

00:07:20:44 – 00:07:25:36
Alan Jennings
And that’s where I that’s where I step up and say, you know, something’s gotta be done about this.

00:07:25:41 – 00:07:49:43
Agent Palmer
And, and you’ve, you’ve, I, I read your book, I reviewed your book. Your book is, first of all, I loved it wholeheartedly, but I feel like I need to, like, asterisk that by saying that I worked for my father in the nonprofit sector, and he shares a lot of your nonprofit beliefs. Right. As far as.

00:07:49:43 – 00:07:51:40
Alan Jennings
A dad’s a good guy.

00:07:51:45 – 00:08:11:04
Agent Palmer
The board needs to roll over, and you need diversity and and all of those things. But the the method behind your madness, which which you talk about. I was sincerely intrigued because I, I don’t know if I’ve ever met someone who bleeds for other people.

00:08:11:08 – 00:08:31:05
Alan Jennings
Well, there are a bunch of, you know, so-called bleeding hearts out there. I don’t think of myself as a bleeding heart because I don’t want to reinforce laziness. I don’t want to reinforce irresponsible behavior. So all of the organization, the organization I run and I and all the programs I created, they try to recognize that people need to learn how to solve their own problems.

00:08:31:10 – 00:08:45:11
Alan Jennings
Like, one of my slogans is we don’t do anything for anyone. Of course we do. But the point is, we want people to learn how to fight their own battles, and we want people to be responsible. You know, make the right decisions. And if they don’t, I’m not going to be as bleeding hard for them, you know?

00:08:45:26 – 00:09:06:32
Alan Jennings
But when people are innocently victimized, that just makes me crazy. I cannot stand it. So, you know, anything that Trump does drives me out of my freaking mind because he always thinks for himself, you know, for his own, you know, wealth and his own self aggrandizement. That’s kind of people I have no patience for. It’s the regular folks who, you know, do the work a day thing.

00:09:06:32 – 00:09:11:38
Alan Jennings
They do. They play by the rules, they try to make it work, and it doesn’t. Those people I bleed for.

00:09:11:43 – 00:09:33:38
Agent Palmer
And you, I mean, you’ve been doing this for, like, have have there been villains for the last decades as you’ve been doing this like, like because it feels like or I guess that the question I ask you is, you’ve been doing this for a long time. It feels like you’re in a never ending video game. There’s always another bad guy.

00:09:33:42 – 00:09:53:44
Alan Jennings
Yeah, there is. And, you know, sometimes they pop back up again. You know? So so you think you’ve taken them out and the next thing you know, there they are again under some other guys. But yeah, I mean we’ve taken on some landlords, banks, insurance companies, predatory lenders, realtors you know, politicians, you know, and you know, there’s plenty of all those things.

00:09:53:44 – 00:10:06:40
Alan Jennings
And, you know, I’ve tell stories, as you well know, in the book, about going after these guys. And, you know, I have a lot of fun taking these guys on, you know, because we usually beat them and it’s it’s pretty cool when you take those guys out, you know? And what’s really cool is the way it affects us, you know?

00:10:06:48 – 00:10:18:36
Alan Jennings
So the next fight I pick, nobody wants to fight. They’re like, they don’t do me what you did to them, you know. And so it’s a lot easier. So so you want you got my attention. Okay. What do you what do you want me? What do I have to do now?

00:10:18:36 – 00:10:35:05
Agent Palmer
But look, I know we’re never going to live in that society where there are no bad guys, but are you hoping one day that it gets harder to find? Like, it doesn’t feel like you need to, like, spend like, a long time looking for the next battle or the next thing that.

00:10:35:05 – 00:10:55:33
Alan Jennings
Pop up all the time. Yeah, there’s always somebody preying on somebody’s misery, and somebody does need somebody vulnerability or somebody is, you know, somebody who’s, lack of resources. There’s always somebody that’s prepared to rip them off. And it just makes me crazy that somebody would try to profit off of somebodies pain and despair, you know? And so, yeah, they’re always there.

00:10:55:33 – 00:11:10:36
Alan Jennings
And so, I’m always picking a fight. I mean, frankly, it’s a good part of the what motivates me is, you know, like, I wake up in the morning, I think of who I’m going to pick a fight with that day. I eat nails for breakfast, and I race to work and pick that fight. You know, you know, I mean, I’d rather.

00:11:10:36 – 00:11:16:26
Alan Jennings
I mean, I’d rather not have to do that, but they’re going to always be there, I think.

00:11:16:30 – 00:11:43:10
Agent Palmer
Is there I don’t know, I mean, you’ve tackled a lot of injustice, but is there, I don’t know, like a common theme that could easily, like, solve these problems, like, is, I mean, one of the things as a little backstory, I have, a friend who, every time we talk, especially when we talk politics, but we always come back to the fact that education needs to be fixed.

00:11:43:14 – 00:12:01:35
Agent Palmer
We always like to say that we escaped high school, and that’s not the way it should be. Like, you should get a foundation of education there. And we always go back to the fact that, like, that’s where it all starts and ends it. Is that a common theme or is there something else in all of these things?

00:12:01:40 – 00:12:26:15
Alan Jennings
I think I mean, exploitation is the fundamental, tool. I mean, people exploiting other people’s vulnerability, other people’s weaknesses, you know, but I don’t think education necessarily going to solve the problem. I mean, in 19 in the early 2000, right, there were all these, companies that did mortgage lending and they were making all kinds of crazy products that had no business being created.

00:12:26:15 – 00:12:41:17
Alan Jennings
They should have been illegal. We tried to get them to be made illegal. I mean, I met twice with Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, to try to get them to stop the outrageous lending that was going on. And he wouldn’t do it. He said, no, I’m going to let the market take care of itself. Well, it did, of course.

00:12:41:17 – 00:13:03:41
Alan Jennings
It almost destroyed the entire international economy. But but they were ripping off people who, you know, we’re college educated, you know, people who wanted, you know, middle class and, middle class Americans who wanted to have a big house in the suburbs. And they could get it if they, you know, took out these horrible loans that were, abusive and and made by unscrupulous people and huge numbers of people.

00:13:03:41 – 00:13:19:07
Alan Jennings
Did it. And I could go through the long explanation of how how it happened. But there are a lot of people who we should have known better, you know, they should have known better. And many cases they did. But they thought they could pull it off. And they got they got screwed, you know, and the entire international economy went down with it.

00:13:19:12 – 00:13:32:31
Alan Jennings
So, I mean, education is going to necessarily solve the problem. How do we stop it all together. And there’s got to be strong rules against people exploiting other people. You know, I, I don’t know how you do that entirely, but it’s got to be a way. It’s got to be a way.

00:13:32:36 – 00:13:51:26
Agent Palmer
And it do we do. We just need more compassion. I mean, is it because in my head and as I said, compassion, there were two words that fought in my head to come out. One was compassion and the other is empathy. And I know they kind of go together, but we need them both, right. Like.

00:13:51:31 – 00:14:13:09
Alan Jennings
Yeah, well, let me, our annual report, you know, we do an annual report to our community, what we did in the past year. And, it’s always a pretty interesting document. But the back page, the back cover of the annual report this year, I wrote the following, paragraph. I said that the heading on it says this was indeed a tough year, but this is a tough agency.

00:14:13:09 – 00:14:31:59
Alan Jennings
We stand for justice. And then what I wrote was this we can do better. All of us. The looters can go home. The provocateurs can pack their bags. The president can stop pouring gas on the fire. The police can clean house. The people who are lying can start telling the truth. The hackers can get real jobs. The racists can shut up.

00:14:32:04 – 00:14:52:02
Alan Jennings
The guys with the weapons can lay down their guns. Every one of us can do more to ensure that we leave no one behind. That’s what a civilized society does. Each of us has to give a little. Some of us, even more, but we must collectively acknowledge that we are all in this together. Only then, my friends, can we really call this call ourselves a great nation again.

00:14:52:07 – 00:15:06:55
Alan Jennings
And you know that that’s you know, we’ve got to just recognize that we are all in this together, put ourselves in other people’s shoes and have a little bit of empathy, and the world would be a far better place. There are too many people and Trump is egging people on not to be that way, is it? It’s the exact opposite message, you know.

00:15:07:00 – 00:15:17:47
Agent Palmer
Is there? This has been I mean, I don’t you’ve been you’ve seen this your whole life, right? Like, this is none of this stuff.

00:15:17:52 – 00:15:31:44
Alan Jennings
Though, Jason, today, I mean, I’ve never seen an aberration of the human race. I like Donald J. Trump is really. I mean, I know, yeah, maybe I piss off some of your view. I your listeners. But this is, this is an aberration like nothing I’ve ever seen.

00:15:31:49 – 00:15:59:52
Agent Palmer
Well, I, I mean, I guess the question becomes, the does and I’m going to ignore Trump as the villain for the moment right when I ask this question. But does the social activism movements of right now, does it feel different than what we’ve went through in the past? Like, I mean, I wasn’t around and, you know, I, I can only read about the 60s, right.

00:15:59:52 – 00:16:10:11
Agent Palmer
And like the all of that stuff. But we are we are, we are we literally have we just turn the clock back. Are we right back where we were?

00:16:10:16 – 00:16:26:19
Alan Jennings
I don’t think the left has any idea how to make things right. I think they know what they would like the world to look like, but they have no idea how to get there. The right is much better at getting their way than the left is, you know. So I mean, the left is, you know, is is sensitive.

00:16:26:24 – 00:16:46:49
Alan Jennings
They are sacrificial. They do want to others, you know, they want things to be better. The right doesn’t have any of those pretenses. They’re like, screw everybody. I’m going to get whatever I can for myself. You know, that’s easy. You can do that. But to convince somebody that doing the right thing requires that person to understand that sacrifice is useful and that it’s important and it matters.

00:16:46:54 – 00:17:02:40
Alan Jennings
And that’s a harder, harder sell. And the left never seems to get it, get it right. They never seem to I mean, like, okay, so you got this, movement now to defund the police. That’s the dumbest damn thing I’ve ever heard of. Who is going to go along with the idea of defunding the police? That’s just stupid.

00:17:02:54 – 00:17:19:39
Alan Jennings
And yet the left came up with that one, you know, you know, so people, I mean, what I try to do in the book is help people understand what it takes to make the world a better place. How you get from point A to point B, hopefully point A being bad, point B being better. And that’s what I try to do in the book.

00:17:19:39 – 00:17:38:34
Alan Jennings
I try to give people the right language. I don’t use the word equality. Equality means you’re going to take something from me and give it to those people over there. What we want is fairness. If everybody has the same opportunity, everybody has really real life economic opportunity and it’s equal opportunity. That’s what we want. So equality is bad word.

00:17:38:39 – 00:17:51:33
Alan Jennings
Fairness is a good word, right? Opportunity is a good word. Guarantee is or entitlement is a bad word. You know. And those are the kind of words we need to learn how to use as progressives trying to get the world to be a better place.

00:17:51:38 – 00:18:09:39
Agent Palmer
I, I want, I want to diverge for a moment like deep. Do you get a chance to relax? Because I mean, reading this, I mean, reading your book, like, listening to you now, like you’re you seem to be always on. Do do you get a moment?

00:18:09:44 – 00:18:32:29
Alan Jennings
Not really. I mean, you know, I’m ADHD. I’m sure. I mean, I didn’t they didn’t, diagnose that when I was a kid, but if there was anything. If ADHD is real, I had it now. And, you know, I’ve always been a high energy, high, you know, I’m really hyperactive, and it’s hard for me to, to sleep, you know, I don’t I get to sleep.

00:18:32:29 – 00:18:44:02
Alan Jennings
I can’t stay asleep. You know, I wake up in the middle of the night. I was like, oh, man, I got to do this. I got to do that. I got, you know, I’ll often be down in my kitchen with my laptop going at 3:00 in the morning. I come up with some idea that I think needs development.

00:18:44:06 – 00:18:57:36
Alan Jennings
And yeah, so I’m pretty crazy in that sense. It’s really kind of an entrepreneurial type of I’m really a very entrepreneurial person. I just apply my entrepreneurial mindset to doing good instead of making money for myself, you know?

00:18:57:41 – 00:19:15:39
Agent Palmer
And but I feel like every community needs a you in a sense. And I, I like have you met other people, like in other communities that at least are trying to fight the same fight?

00:19:15:44 – 00:19:33:26
Alan Jennings
Yeah, there, there are, there are people out there. I mean, that’s pretty funny. A few years ago, I was I used to teach at Lehigh University, just part time, you know, to one class a semester while I was running this agency. And, and, I had a lot of fun doing it. And I had one of my students said in class, I’ve never met anybody like you.

00:19:33:31 – 00:19:49:03
Alan Jennings
I tend to stop for a second and said, trying to make sure that that’s a compliment. But, yeah, I mean, there aren’t a lot of people that do this, but they’re out there and and, you know, doing good stuff and, you know, not getting attention for it. And, yeah, there just aren’t nearly enough, you know.

00:19:49:07 – 00:20:08:01
Agent Palmer
I’m glad you brought that up because I, I want to ask this question in, in the new media landscape that we are in, do you need attention like, like is it part of the job in order to get anything done? Or do you need the spotlight on you? Not all the time.

00:20:08:01 – 00:20:24:24
Alan Jennings
But yeah, you do really. You know, and as you know, there’s a chapter in my book called How to Raise Hell and Raise Money to Right? Yep. A lot of nonprofit people think that if you’re controversial and you stir up too much trouble, your donors are going to give, you’re going to scare people away. That’s not my experience.

00:20:24:29 – 00:20:41:05
Alan Jennings
My experience is that people genuinely care about their neighbors. They just don’t know how to help. You know, they don’t know what the right vehicle is. You know, they get jaded because the Catholic Church screwed up and the Boy Scout screwed up and the United Way screwed up. And, you know, the government screws up and and they don’t believe in institutions anymore.

00:20:41:05 – 00:21:00:47
Alan Jennings
They’re they’re they’re suspicious and skeptical. They’re cynical. And, you know, so my my experience is if we get attention for the problem that people who care about others are going to say, okay, there’s an organization I want to support. And so, you know, I’ve spent a lot of my time getting as much attention to the issues that I tackle as I can.

00:21:00:52 – 00:21:18:07
Alan Jennings
Some of that means, you know, making me a I’m a celebrity status because it just goes along with the delivery of the message that I’m not the issue. The message is the issue. The the outcome is really the issue. But, you know, you got to get people’s attention. You got to be able to speak to the agenda effectively.

00:21:18:18 – 00:21:21:56
Alan Jennings
And if you can’t do that, you’re not going to get very far in a problem solving process.

00:21:22:01 – 00:21:39:22
Agent Palmer
We’ve talked about the book a bunch. I, I have to ask, did you always like, was writing a book ever a goal? Like, I mean, we talked about you’re always moving, but was that a a thing? You were like, oh, I one day I’ll write a book. Like, is that.

00:21:39:31 – 00:21:56:33
Alan Jennings
Actually, yeah. Actually it was. Hey, you got to understand. Yeah, that’s that’s, you know, I got gotta. If I get too deep into this, I’m going to really sound weird. But when I was a kid, I mean, like, eight years old. And I said this in the book when I was a little kid, I was standing in my parent’s bedroom, and I was looking in the in a full length mirror.

00:21:56:33 – 00:22:22:25
Alan Jennings
For some reason, as I was standing there, I was overcome with this feeling that God had put me on the planet to make a heroic difference. And I don’t mean, you know, just like do what I’ve done, but I mean, like Martin Luther King’s level of of difference, right? Sure. So when I get to my 30s, I mean, my late, my mid 30s, I realized that all of my heroes Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jesus, you know, they had all died before they were 40 years old because there was such a threat to the status quo.

00:22:22:25 – 00:22:40:20
Alan Jennings
Right. And here I was approaching 40 and I was I wasn’t dead yet. So I felt like I had let God down, that I, you know, so I spent my whole life thinking I was going to fight this battle and believe it or not, in that file cabinet, right there is an entire file cabinet filled with monthly reports of.

00:22:40:20 – 00:23:04:48
Alan Jennings
And every one of those months has everything I did every day in my career because I thought someday I would write that autobiography, you know, to help people understand why you should do what I’ve tried to do. So yeah, believe it or not, I’ve always felt that I was going to be, you know, doing what I what was important enough to talk about it and try to encourage others and inspire others to do the same.

00:23:04:53 – 00:23:25:10
Agent Palmer
One of the things I love about what you just said, but and you cover it in the book too, is that sometimes you’re going to piss people off like you can’t, what you you. Yeah. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but it it read just from reading the book. It sounds like you enjoy it.

00:23:25:15 – 00:23:29:04
Agent Palmer
Like there’s, there’s a level of fun that you get out of it.

00:23:29:09 – 00:23:50:02
Alan Jennings
It is, it’s true, I, I get a kick out of picking fights. I get a kick out of winning those fights. I get mad as hell when I lose those fights. But sometimes you even pick a fight when you know you’re going to lose. Because just if somebody if the bad guys know that you’re going to pick a fight, whether you’re going to win or lose, they’re going they’re going to be even more reluctant to fight it because they don’t want to.

00:23:50:04 – 00:24:08:20
Alan Jennings
They don’t. They know you don’t you don’t have to win. You know, I mean, so they might think that they’re capable of winning, but you’re going to pick a fight anyway. They’re going to be less than likely to to pick that fight. You know what I mean? Because nobody’s going to come out of that fight looking good. So so you know yeah I get a I get a kick out of that fight.

00:24:08:25 – 00:24:25:05
Alan Jennings
I also get a kick out of not having to fight because they’re scared of of the outcome. You know, I like intimidating people. I have, but, you know, at the same time, I just as soon have friends, you know, but I’ve also said my whole life that I’d rather be judged. I don’t mind being judged by who my enemies are.

00:24:25:10 – 00:24:30:09
Alan Jennings
I want that to be just as I mean, just as important as being judged by who my friends are, you know?

00:24:30:14 – 00:24:36:00
Agent Palmer
And do you have more friends than then? Than enemies?

00:24:36:05 – 00:24:56:28
Alan Jennings
I think I’m probably the most hated person in the Lehigh Valley, but it’s because there are a lot of conservatives out there who hate what I stand for. You know, they’re also a lot of conservatives that are my best friends and allies. You know, my experience has been I mean, what I’m most proud of in my career is that I beat the hell out of the system and the system has embraced me.

00:24:56:33 – 00:25:19:23
Alan Jennings
So, I mean, just to give you the best example I can give you. Sure. When I started taking over the the entrepreneurial part of running my organization when I was 22 years old, literally no, 20, 24 years old when I took over, we were a half $1 million organization. Today, we’re a $30 million organization. And that was that was the result of, you know, our hard work here.

00:25:19:23 – 00:25:44:32
Alan Jennings
And so, you know, you can’t build an organization like that and not have a lot of friends. And, you know, my best friends and allies are often Republicans because they have influence and they have resources. Democrats don’t have any money, you know. And so, you know, I couldn’t have pulled off what I’ve done without a lot of friends, but I also have a lot of people I would love to see me get my ass kicked, you know?

00:25:44:37 – 00:26:00:36
Alan Jennings
And so it makes me especially clean, you know, I mean, I, I want to be very responsible for every nickel I get from people, but I’m also going to be very clean because I don’t want anybody to take me out for the wrong reason. So I’m super careful about how I handle the resources that are entrusted to me.

00:26:00:41 – 00:26:16:33
Agent Palmer
Is that I guess this is a very broad, question, but like, is that the way all non-profits, I mean, that’s the way all nonprofits should be. But in your experience, is it okay?

00:26:16:38 – 00:26:44:12
Alan Jennings
Oh, look, I, you know, I’ve got if you look at, you know, there’s a there’s a form that nonprofits fill out a tax form called the 990, and there’s a website called guidestar.com. If you go to that website, they have the nine 90s for almost all the nonprofits in the United States. And in that document is the salary of the CEO, the names of the board of directors, what the services are, whether there are any conflicts of interest and things like that.

00:26:44:17 – 00:27:08:54
Alan Jennings
And so you can go and look at the salary of every nonprofit executive director in the country. You go and look there, you’ll see my salary is $110,000. Okay. I run a $30 million organization with 100 employees, and I’ve been here for 40 years. Okay? I make $110,000. I make that that’s a that’s a paltry. I mean, it sounds like a lot, but but as a CEO of a $30 million organization, that’s nothing.

00:27:08:59 – 00:27:25:51
Alan Jennings
I have my friends that run other nonprofits that are nonprofits, a third of the size of mine, that make twice what I make. And I don’t fault me. I don’t fault I’m not unhappy about how much I make. I’m unhappy about how much they make. You know, if you’re in this field, you ought to be in it for the right reason.

00:27:25:51 – 00:27:30:59
Alan Jennings
The right reason is not to make a lot of money. If you want to make a lot of money, do it in the for profit side.

00:27:31:04 – 00:28:04:35
Agent Palmer
And I, I the other side of the, the other aspect of the money and you cover this very well is overhead and administration which I mean, I spent seven years working in a nonprofit. I, I’m, I don’t know, I mean, I wasn’t in charge of finances, so I don’t know how much was lost in administration. I can only assume not a lot because you do extra work.

00:28:04:40 – 00:28:35:38
Agent Palmer
Like it’s, and I, I think it’s not an expectation that people have. Right. I, I think there’s a, a miscalculation that. Oh, we’re, you know, we’re we’re not in it for the money, but that doesn’t mean we’re not in it for the work. And, the the, you know, we’re it’s the journey, right? It’s it’s how you get there, but you got to get there quicker and faster in the nonprofit sector.

00:28:35:43 – 00:29:02:06
Agent Palmer
How have you adjusted over the last decades in, in charge? Because the, the nature of nonprofits, you know, by definition, will have been the same, but the nature of business in general and how things are run has changed dramatically. How do you continue to focus on, like, the things that matter when everything else around you is changing?

00:29:02:11 – 00:29:20:26
Alan Jennings
Well, you know, for me, first of all, I, I, I’ve never felt the rules applied to me. So I’ve, you know, like, if, if something is is wrong, I fight like hell against it. Like, I get I really get frustrated when people complain about things, but they don’t do anything about it, you know? Sure. But I see a problem.

00:29:20:26 – 00:29:36:54
Alan Jennings
I fight to make it right, you know, and, so that that’s part of the equation. But but, you got to have somebody who’s got a supervise staff people, somebody has got to make sure the benefits are being done properly. Somebody’s got to make sure the fiscal reports are being done and the numbers are being counted properly.

00:29:36:58 – 00:29:55:59
Alan Jennings
And and I’ll tell you what, accounting rules in the nonprofit sector are ten times more complicated than they are in the for profit sector. So not only do we have more work to do, we make less money doing it. But you know what? When I show up at the door of that, those pearly gates, man, I’m pretty sure they’re going to put me on the express line.

00:29:55:59 – 00:30:11:41
Alan Jennings
And that’ll be cool with me, because I tell you what, you know, if there is a heaven, heaven is supposed to be the perfect place for me. Heaven would be Disney World, where all the employees look like Playboy models. You know? So that’s my heaven. And I’m looking forward to that day, you know?

00:30:11:46 – 00:30:29:56
Agent Palmer
And look, you just went through, a lot of, like, the these are all the extra things. But in the nonprofit sector, you’re doing it for a good reason. You’re making your community better. So it it right it that’s it makes it all worthwhile. Right. Like that’s that’s.

00:30:29:56 – 00:30:48:35
Alan Jennings
That’s compensation right there. I mean, there is a you get a great feeling knowing you made a difference. You know, my problem is the difference that I thought I was going to make was much higher than I have. So, you know, running a $30 million organization might sound good, but remember, I, you know, God put me on a planet to make a heroic difference.

00:30:48:40 – 00:31:05:44
Alan Jennings
And I haven’t made a heroic difference. Martin Luther King made a heroic difference, you know, so I in some respects, I think of myself as having failed and meeting the expectations that I had for myself and what what I thought God had for me. And so, you know, I gotta tell you, my faith isn’t as strong as it sounds like it might be.

00:31:05:48 – 00:31:10:16
Alan Jennings
But, that was the way I thought, you know, earlier, when I wasn’t so cynical.

00:31:10:20 – 00:31:26:35
Agent Palmer
Does it does it make you I. This is going to sound, ridiculous for anybody who’s been following along the whole time. But does that perceived failure. And I use that in quotes almost. Does that make you work harder?

00:31:26:40 – 00:31:46:57
Alan Jennings
Yeah. Well, I’m going to have to retire probably in May because I have Parkinson’s. And I don’t know that I’m as good as I used to be. So I’m going to be I’m going to retire early because I think I need to, but, yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I work my tail off trying to get as much done as I possibly can, and, I, you know, I don’t have a whole lot of time left doing this.

00:31:46:57 – 00:31:47:39
Alan Jennings
Yeah.

00:31:47:44 – 00:32:02:45
Agent Palmer
I don’t, I mean, I I’ll, I’ll just flat out ask, like, what is retire meant for you because it doesn’t feel like you’re going to you’re not going to stop waking up at 3 a.m. with the good idea, and you’re not going to stop. You’re not going to start sleeping in. Right?

00:32:02:45 – 00:32:11:04
Alan Jennings
Like, I can’t sleep, that well, no, I’m going to run an IV foundation when I retire.

00:32:11:08 – 00:32:12:01
Agent Palmer
Okay?

00:32:12:05 – 00:32:24:29
Alan Jennings
I was, I was a very, kind family in this area who is creating a foundation. They’re going to have about $3 million a year to give away. And I’m going to run that foundation. That’s my retirement.

00:32:24:34 – 00:32:32:01
Agent Palmer
And and. Well, I mean, it it sounds like probably the best retirement you could ask for.

00:32:32:05 – 00:32:47:14
Alan Jennings
Pretty cool, isn’t it? I got lucky on this one. I got to go to Orioles games. I’m going to go to Rock, and I’m going to go to a Grateful Dead show. Hopefully they’ll be able to play again. We’ll be able to go, but I’m going to goof off as much as I can. I’m going to I’m going to run a foundation and maybe teach again.

00:32:47:19 – 00:32:54:43
Alan Jennings
But no, I’m not going to rest entirely. I’m not going to goof off entirely. I want to travel, but I’m going to I’m going to continue to try to make a difference as much as I can.

00:32:54:45 – 00:32:57:24
Agent Palmer
Did you did you enjoy teaching?

00:32:57:28 – 00:33:31:22
Alan Jennings
It was it was an extremely rewarding thing. You know, I taught at Lehigh University, which is not a slouch school. It’s pretty serious school, very bright students there and, most of them very privileged. And so when I would have these kids who you know, were silver spoon kids by the end of the semester talking about saving the world from itself, I’d be pretty, pretty happy about that, you know, and I to this day, you know, I haven’t taught for two years now, but I go back, I went I taught for 8 or 9, maybe ten years, and I still have students that contact me on a regular basis looking for advice on how to

00:33:31:22 – 00:33:41:37
Alan Jennings
create a nonprofit that they are creating. Because they took my class, you know, they wanted to be engineers, but they’re they’re creating they’re creating nonprofits instead. You know, that’s cool stuff.

00:33:41:37 – 00:33:53:05
Agent Palmer
Was was it, because I remember what I was like in college. Was it easy to turn some of them around? Was it easy or is it, a challenge?

00:33:53:10 – 00:34:14:30
Alan Jennings
Well, the class I taught two classes the fall semester. I taught a course called How to Change the World, and a spring semester, I taught a course called How to Create a Nonprofit, Create and Sustain a nonprofit. Right. So if you were drawn in by those titles, you obviously had some degree of, of of willingness to be to, to, to find something new, you know what I mean?

00:34:14:30 – 00:34:32:33
Alan Jennings
Sure. Yeah. And what I would, what I would often get this is an upper level course. So what I would often get was kids that were sick of their majors by their senior year and started taking stuff that they wanted to take because it was cool. And so, you know, I I’d work on, you know, I knew I had people who were a little malleable, you know, that I could work with them.

00:34:32:38 – 00:34:37:08
Alan Jennings
And it was fun, you know, turning them over over the course of the semester, you know.

00:34:37:13 – 00:34:46:38
Agent Palmer
Is is that something you would want to get back to, like on? I mean, because I read the book and I go, this is a guy who wants to reach out to more people.

00:34:46:43 – 00:34:55:43
Alan Jennings
Yeah, my plan is to run a foundation, teach a class or two a semester, and be an usher at the Iron Pigs games.

00:34:55:48 – 00:35:03:32
Agent Palmer
Okay. Where’s the love of baseball? Like, is that always been for you? The love of baseball. Like, is that always been there?

00:35:03:37 – 00:35:22:44
Alan Jennings
Well, you’re from your family’s from Baltimore. My family’s from Hagerstown, Maryland. Okay. And when I go, our family, the only vacation we could afford was to go visit our our our grandparents and our aunts and uncles. So we’d go to Hagerstown and they’d be watching Orioles games. And this is like 1968, you know. So Frank Robinson’s in the lineup.

00:35:22:44 – 00:35:42:17
Alan Jennings
Brooks Robinson’s in the lineup. Jim Palmer’s in the lineup, Dave McNally. You know, it’s 6970, 71 for 20 game winners and 71. You know we had Andy Edge a Baron and Dave Johnson and Bobby Gretsch and and you know all these guys. And I mean, it was an exciting time to be a baseball fan and an Orioles fan.

00:35:42:31 – 00:36:02:54
Alan Jennings
And then when they opened Camden Yards, such a great stadium. I got season tickets. So I drove 2.5 hours, 13 times a season to see the Orioles get their asses kicked year after year, you know, because, you know, they’ve sucked for so long now, you know? But I’m still a fan. In fact, while I was late to come on this show, as I told you, it’s because I was getting my season tickets for next season.

00:36:03:05 – 00:36:26:24
Agent Palmer
And I look, I it’s hard for me not to see the parallels because I am an Orioles fan and I go, well, you keep showing up for them. And, the this the I mean, look, I, I was, I was born in 83, so I can say I was alive the last time they won the championship, but I wasn’t exactly a fan necessarily.

00:36:26:24 – 00:36:52:41
Agent Palmer
Right. So you’ve seen the highs and the lows. I’ve really only seen the, you know, the, the individual achievement of of Ripken, breaking the streak and then deciding to sit it out like that, that’s been the highlight. Other than, clinching a playoff berth and probably the highlight of my Orioles fandom is watching them knock the Red Sox out of the playoffs on the last day of the season.

00:36:52:46 – 00:37:10:22
Alan Jennings
Well, you know, a few years ago when Manny Machado was, rookie and, you know, they went to the LCS, remember? Yeah. And I was at those games because I had the season tickets. And that was a thrill, you know, and, you know, they’re going to be back. It’s like a you know, I think this guy lives is pretty good.

00:37:10:27 – 00:37:33:34
Alan Jennings
I think they’ve got an interesting, start on their foundation. I think they’re going to be above 500 next season. And, and I think, you know, it’s going to get better, you know, maybe, maybe I’m. Yeah, I see, so I’m like cynical. And here’s what I say. I say, I say I’m cynical enough to know what I’m up against, but optimistic enough to pick the fight anyway.

00:37:33:39 – 00:37:49:41
Alan Jennings
And so, you know, I know it’s a tough one, but I’m going to continue to be optimistic. I’m going to keep trying, because if I wasn’t, what the hell would I be doing? You know, I mean, I’d be a real loser, you know? So I’m an optimist. I think I can make a difference. I think the Orioles are going to win, and I’m going to see the Grateful Dead again.

00:37:49:41 – 00:37:50:17
Alan Jennings
Damn it.

00:37:50:22 – 00:38:07:31
Agent Palmer
They is. It is. Is there one thing that, like you haven’t done because it feels like you’ve done a lot and you’ve you aren’t really held back by anything? Yeah. So is there.

00:38:07:31 – 00:38:30:04
Alan Jennings
Kids are all grown. Yeah. Well, you know, I’ve been to 41 Major League Baseball stadiums. That’s pretty cool. I’ve seen the Grateful Dead about 40 times. I’ve seen about 400 concerts in my life. I was a concert promoter in college. I’ve met all kinds of. I met Tom Hanks at Obama’s, inauguration. I was in one of the seats right up at the front, where there are 1.5 million people behind me.

00:38:30:08 – 00:38:55:12
Alan Jennings
I told you, I met with Alan Greenspan. I’ve met Hillary, I’ve met John Kerry. I’ve, I’ve I’ve been in the presence. I mean, I’ve met Cal Ripken. I, you know, so I’ve had a really interesting life and I’ve found myself in many situations where I was like, how did I get here? Like how I mean, I’m just this kid from Allentown, you know, whose father was an alcoholic, whose mother, you know, was was just a humble, you know, minimum wage worker.

00:38:55:17 – 00:39:12:37
Alan Jennings
I got lucky, I went to an expensive school on scholarships and financial aid, and and I’ve been able to see a lot of the world. I’ve been to 18 foreign countries. I want to go to two more next year. I’ve just made a point of having fun, to offset the misery and the challenges and the fights and the and the and the tears and the despair.

00:39:12:37 – 00:39:13:40
Alan Jennings
You know.

00:39:13:45 – 00:39:29:01
Agent Palmer
It is it. I mean, the way you explain that, do you really live in not live and die, but like, it feels like every day is a playoff game for you to to keep it in sports terms?

00:39:29:06 – 00:39:49:24
Alan Jennings
Yeah. I think that’s, that’s a great metaphor, Jason. You know, I think, you know, you don’t have a lot of time on this planet. What the hell are we here for? We might as well have fun, you know? And, you know, and to avoid feeling guilty that I had too much fun, I’m going to do everything I can to kick ass on the people that are making life miserable for the people who don’t deserve it, you know?

00:39:49:28 – 00:40:09:51
Alan Jennings
So, you know, the fun is really an antidote to the to the misery. I mean, it is tough stuff. I’m an angry person. I fight like hell all the time. That wears you down, you know? But it doesn’t wear me down enough to stop. And I find things to make life interesting and always have something out there that I know is going to be fun.

00:40:10:02 – 00:40:15:05
Alan Jennings
When a fight is over, you know, it’s.

00:40:15:09 – 00:40:30:07
Agent Palmer
The, I look, there’s a part of me. So one of the my favorite stories from my youth is that, I was with my grandfather in Memorial Stadium, and we were sitting in the bleachers because that’s where we usually sat.

00:40:30:07 – 00:40:34:44
Alan Jennings
One. Where were you? In left field. I. I like the left field bleachers. That’s where I usually said no, I.

00:40:34:44 – 00:41:00:00
Agent Palmer
Think I believe we were in right field, in the right field bleachers. And one of the ushers came up because my grandfather knew everyone and he knew an usher that was in the the VIP season tickets behind like a home plate, basically. And he walked, I think he walked down and was just asking him and he said, no, they’re not coming tonight.

00:41:00:00 – 00:41:24:56
Agent Palmer
Or he, you know, he knew whatever. So we ended up, sitting in the front row behind the on deck circle. Unlike seven. Like what? What do I know? Like, I mean, this is and because I’m so young at the time, everything looks so much bigger, right? It’s it’s huge. And, you know, like, Cal is right there and.

00:41:25:10 – 00:42:10:40
Agent Palmer
Yeah, you know, at the time, Brady, Anderson and Devereaux, like, those guys are just right there. Yeah. And what I didn’t know about other than life. Absolutely. And what I didn’t know at the time was that my father was in DC or Virginia and saw me on TV at the game because of where we were for. And so that was a like a nice little added bonus to the story that like kind of wraps it up, but like I, I’ve come and gone with baseball, but I always feel like there’s so many metaphors for life and, and and I, I this past year I read Earl Weaver’s book, which.

00:42:10:45 – 00:42:33:07
Agent Palmer
Well, it’s one of those things where you go, it’s amazing how many smart people are in sports that could have done like a million other things outside of it. And meanwhile, you and I are here and I feel like, I mean, I would love to be in baseball somehow. I don’t know.

00:42:33:12 – 00:42:58:51
Alan Jennings
Yet. So I, you know, I had, you know, my, my uncle, his name was Uncle buzz was a good year employee and he got me tickets one time with my mother and my brother, and they were better than yours. They were front row right next to the dugout. So I literally could lean over the railing and see Paul Blair and Boog Powell and Dave McNally and Mickey Hart.

00:42:58:51 – 00:43:06:18
Alan Jennings
You know, I mean, that was just a trip. And, it’s just don’t get those kind of experiences and forget about them, you know.

00:43:06:23 – 00:43:16:08
Agent Palmer
It’s I mean, you talk about the Iron Pigs, which is the closest I think I’ll ever come to those, you know, VIP experiences and being in the boxes and.

00:43:16:12 – 00:43:37:42
Alan Jennings
Well, I’ll tell you, the way I met Cal Ripken, I had a friend who was a, who was the executive director of our national association of Community Action Agencies, and he knew I was an Orioles fan. He was on the Cal Ripken Senior Foundation board of trustees. Okay. He was the head of the boys and Girls Club in Maryland, and that was his connection.

00:43:37:51 – 00:44:03:30
Alan Jennings
So he takes me to the Cal Ripken Senior Foundation annual Gala. And there’s dad, Don Stenhouse and P.J., Sir Hoff, and and and, Mel Melvin Moore, and Billy Ripken and Cal Ripken and and you meet those guys, man, that was good stuff. You know, so, I mean, we get those kinds of opportunities just because I happen to know the right person at the right time.

00:44:03:44 – 00:44:05:33
Alan Jennings
It’s good. It’s good stuff.

00:44:05:38 – 00:44:39:24
Agent Palmer
It’s it. Look, I feel like happenstance is one thing, but, like, you’ve worked for it, like you’ve been in all of those places in order to, like, I feel like there’s a part of me that reading the book and then listening to you tell these stories, like, if you’ve you’ve done the things you were put here to do, right, like, and it and it may not feel like it’s just you, but like you were in a position where you got to teach people and now they’re doing things right.

00:44:39:24 – 00:45:01:19
Agent Palmer
So now you’re legacy, if you want to call it that, is now tied to the people that you’ve taught and what they do. So it’s it’s not just you going it alone, despite the fact that it feels like you’re still the angry man who’s just like, I’m going to win. But like you, you have others.

00:45:01:24 – 00:45:18:40
Alan Jennings
Yeah, but I am mad as hell, though. But, you know, I tell you, a lot of it was just dumb luck. And that’s one of the things that bothers me about people is how few people who have it very good never acknowledged the role luck played in their lives. You know, I mean, they say, oh, I worked real hard to get where I am.

00:45:18:54 – 00:45:40:43
Alan Jennings
You know what? Lots of people work their asses off every day of their lives, and they never get anything out of their out of that work, you know? So, you know, if you don’t acknowledge the luck you’ve had. So one time I’m in the Senate, building in Washington. Right. We’re down there at a conference. We’re lobbying in the Capitol and awareness back stairwells are all marble spiral staircase.

00:45:40:43 – 00:45:58:36
Alan Jennings
And, you know, going up the staircase has room for maybe two people. If you if you turn sideways and it coming at me is a big guy in a suit with one of those wires coming out of his ear. And this is clearly a Secret Service guy. Right behind him is John Kerry while he was running for president.

00:45:58:37 – 00:46:13:49
Alan Jennings
United States. And that’s how I met John Kerry, the Democratic nominee for president. You know, so some of this stuff is just pure luck, you know, you know, and people who don’t acknowledge the role of luck, I just think are just fooling themselves, you know.

00:46:13:54 – 00:46:46:18
Agent Palmer
Is it is it hubris? Like, is it like cause because I, like, I’ll, I’ll acknowledge like the to get where I am right now, which is not like the best place in the world. But, like, I don’t have a job. I like as we record this and, and scenarios, you know, and the world being what it is, you know, I, I’ve had to take my lumps, but but I have passion projects that I can bury myself in.

00:46:46:29 – 00:47:11:16
Agent Palmer
Not necessarily like, you know, like ostrich syndrome, but it keeps me busy. So I’m not worried about everything. And I look at the connections that I’ve made through either networking and the books that I’ve read, because I put an impact on reading and I’m trying to better myself. And even despite everything, like I feel like I’ve grown, I’m not.

00:47:11:21 – 00:47:31:44
Alan Jennings
But yeah, yeah. And you have and and first of all, this is valuable doing a podcast. You’re doing this because you enjoy it. And that that makes it a lot easier to accept. You know, I mean, sometimes you just got to find things that divert your attention from you. And if you spend too much time on your own misery, it’s kind of just it’s going to it’s going to multiply the misery.

00:47:31:44 – 00:47:49:42
Alan Jennings
It’s going to it’s kind of burden you in a way that you know, isn’t healthy. You know? So this kind of thing is a great tool. You know, this is a tough economy. Lots of people are unemployed. But, you know, I bet you there aren’t very many people doing what you’re doing now, you know, which is, you know, bringing information to people who obviously have an interest in it or they wouldn’t be listening.

00:47:49:46 – 00:47:51:19
Alan Jennings
And that’s good stuff. Yeah.

00:47:51:23 – 00:48:13:22
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I, I, I it’s so the one like high and mighty thing that I always had when I had a 9 to 5, which was more like a whenever to, whenever it was never a 9 to 5. But one of the things I always like used to look down on people for, is you go home and you watch TV.

00:48:13:27 – 00:48:31:28
Agent Palmer
Like what? Like because, you know, some of this stuff I was doing when I had a full time job, I, I have even less excuse not to continue it. Right? Because a it’s fun and be like, I don’t have anything else going on. But like, I always was like, you, like you don’t you don’t do anything. Yeah.

00:48:31:37 – 00:48:32:49
Agent Palmer
Like and I’m not.

00:48:32:58 – 00:48:51:00
Alan Jennings
And not being productive, not being distracted, not being entertained, not being occupied is a great formula for depression. And you don’t want to get depressed. You know, just a quick story about my own experience. You know, I had, 2 or 3 different doctors who have told me I was depressed and I said, I’m not depressed. I say, yes, you are.

00:48:51:00 – 00:49:05:59
Alan Jennings
And I said, well, you know, look, people who are depressed can’t get off the couch. Well, I get I get out of bed in the morning. I race to work. I fight like hell. I come back home at night. I sleep as little as necessary because it’s a waste of time. I wake up the next day. I race back to work and fight like hell.

00:49:05:59 – 00:49:12:32
Alan Jennings
Another day. I’m not depressed. I’m pissed. I’ve got a problem with that.

00:49:12:37 – 00:49:14:26
Alan Jennings
The guy said, yeah, there’s nothing I can do for you.

00:49:14:26 – 00:49:16:20
Agent Palmer
You can go.

00:49:16:25 – 00:49:18:37
Alan Jennings
Okay, cool. See you later.

00:49:18:42 – 00:49:45:56
Agent Palmer
Well, I’m glad you brought up productive because it’s it’s one of those things where I know nobody likes being sick. But, like, for me, that’s the worst, because I like if, like, look, if, if I just draft, like a 500 word post and that’s that all I got done. And it took me all day like I still did something I can turn around and be like, I did that.

00:49:45:56 – 00:49:48:31
Agent Palmer
I wrote that thing. I went.

00:49:48:31 – 00:49:48:55
Alan Jennings
Out.

00:49:49:00 – 00:50:09:30
Agent Palmer
When I go to bed on a day where I didn’t do anything, I, I just look back on, well, what was the point of that? Like, I did nothing today, and I know there’s people out there that are like, well, no, that’s good. But like, I not for me, I want to do something. I want to make sure I got something done.

00:50:09:35 – 00:50:17:16
Alan Jennings
Yeah, but you gotta volunteer your time for a candidate for, political office, because, man, if we don’t get this world right, we’re in deep, deep trouble.

00:50:17:21 – 00:50:42:29
Agent Palmer
I. You know what? It’s funny you mentioned that, like, I’m starting to be, I’m actually getting interviewed for some volunteer, board of directors positions, and, you know, somebody. And look, my my mother and father loom large in my life and in my sphere of influence, and, and they both spend time volunteering and on boards and all kinds of,

00:50:42:44 – 00:50:45:06
Alan Jennings
Donating to my agency. I don’t know if you know that.

00:50:45:06 – 00:50:47:37
Agent Palmer
I don’t, but I’m not surprised and very.

00:50:47:37 – 00:50:48:25
Alan Jennings
Supportive over the.

00:50:48:25 – 00:51:09:36
Agent Palmer
Years. And, and and they’re on committees and this, that and the other thing. So somebody was like, do you want to be would you ever consider being on a board? And I was like, well, yeah. Yeah. Like like in my head I was like, well, why didn’t I think of that? It was one of those like eureka moments, like, well, yeah, of course.

00:51:09:40 – 00:51:24:20
Alan Jennings
Well, a lot of people don’t know what the possibilities are. You know, I mean, that’s especially common among low income people. You ask them what you want their community to look like and have. They look at you like with a dumb look. They have no idea what it’s capable of being. They have no idea what the possibilities are, you know?

00:51:24:20 – 00:51:32:11
Alan Jennings
And so, you know, sometimes it’s just not being aware of what you’re capable of doing. You know, what what what the opportunities are. You know.

00:51:32:16 – 00:51:58:40
Agent Palmer
I, I think it’s it’s twofold really because one, it’s it’s their people like and maybe right now because the sky is falling. Right. Like people right now have a hard time thinking outside of their immediate circumstance. But even if they did, it’s hard to wonder what it’s like without any constraints. It’s hard to figure out what to do.

00:51:58:42 – 00:52:23:45
Agent Palmer
Right? Like, you know, I, I only have a small, like, little anecdote for this, but like when I started creating, like, a schedule for my blog and it would be like, you’re going to write about this movie, and then I’d sit down and be like, what am I going to write about? Oh, this movie, like, I had more incentive to get it done, versus you’re going to write a post and sit down and go, I can write about anything.

00:52:23:45 – 00:52:39:16
Agent Palmer
And I, I think one it’s one of those paralysis things because when you say people like, what do you want it to look like? And they go, well, it could be anything. And then their brain explodes because they have no idea or everything comes out all at once.

00:52:39:21 – 00:53:01:35
Alan Jennings
Yeah, well, you know, having a rhythm in your life is is an important part of getting, you know, being an a useful person, you know, I mean, and that, that rhythm. Because if you, if you lack the rhythm, nothing goes away. It should, you know, everything takes longer than it should. No structure. Things fall apart. They don’t go the way they should have, you know.

00:53:01:35 – 00:53:11:07
Alan Jennings
So having rhythm in your life is a good, antidote to for for despair, you know, and and and and and depression.

00:53:11:12 – 00:53:34:50
Agent Palmer
I yeah I yeah, I mean I it’s, I, I just figured out the last days at one of my previous jobs when I wasn’t sleeping was because I saw the writing on the wall and didn’t know when it was going to happen. And now, even not knowing what’s going to happen without a job, I sleep better at night.

00:53:34:54 – 00:54:00:20
Agent Palmer
And it’s like it’s one of those hindsight things where it’s like, oh, it just clicks. You’re like, oh, I get that now. I get that now. And and I’m trying to, formulate rhythms. That involve, you know, these passion projects. Right. Because what we, we are whatever we can be. Right. Like, you aren’t more or less than you are.

00:54:00:25 – 00:54:12:02
Agent Palmer
And it’s one of those weird null sentences, but it absolutely makes sense. So if you’re not working to be better, you’re not going to be better, right? And if, well, you.

00:54:12:02 – 00:54:14:41
Alan Jennings
Might you might get lucky. You know, there’s always luck.

00:54:14:46 – 00:54:22:18
Agent Palmer
This is true. But I yeah, I, I don’t know, I, I think bad luck.

00:54:22:23 – 00:54:27:52
Alan Jennings
With your parents, you know, I mean, I mean, you know, there are a lot of people whose parents are just as poor as they are, you know.

00:54:27:57 – 00:54:37:23
Agent Palmer
No, that’s fair. And I, I think my parents, if they listen to this, will immediately text me and say, you’re not welcome. Don’t know. I but,

00:54:37:28 – 00:54:38:32
Alan Jennings
Yeah, but but.

00:54:38:43 – 00:54:59:24
Agent Palmer
But I will say and I give my parents credit for this like I was. I’ve been prepared. Look, there were good times. Like, I had a job, I had a disposable income, and I saved it for now, I guess. But like, they all, I was always told, like, saved for the lean times. There will. There will be lean times.

00:54:59:24 – 00:55:23:49
Agent Palmer
And now there are. And I feel like I get to sleep at night because I prepared a. But like I was lucky enough to have parents that would tell me, like, I look around at friends that have jobs and aren’t as comfortable as I am right now, and that it if anything like we can always improve our circumstance, but it doesn’t always involve money, right?

00:55:23:51 – 00:55:38:20
Agent Palmer
Which is another part of this because you can be sustained from almost anything. Reading a good book, learning something like it’s it’s not I need to buy a new car.

00:55:38:25 – 00:55:42:34
Alan Jennings
Right? Yeah. Or get a bigger house or.

00:55:42:37 – 00:56:05:18
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I mean, let me let me ask you this. If there is one thing you would impress upon the the average Joe, right? Whether it be for themselves or for their community, is there one piece of, like, advice that you would have for like just the, the common person.

00:56:05:23 – 00:56:24:21
Alan Jennings
I you know, you know, I don’t know if I could come up with just one the one that comes to mind first is that if you have a complaint, do something about it. Don’t just take it. Don’t believe that you have no power. Don’t believe you have no ability to make it. Make a change. Everybody’s capable of making a change.

00:56:24:21 – 00:56:49:16
Alan Jennings
You got to put your mind to it. Think about how you do it. Talk to somebody who’s done it before. Do not complain without some some form of of effort to make whatever you’re complaining about. Right. And the fact that so many people take whatever they’re doled out is and, you know, is what leaves us in situations where some people have so much and there are so few of them and so many people have so little.

00:56:49:21 – 00:57:00:32
Alan Jennings
And, you know, so fight for what you need and don’t don’t just complain, do something about it.

00:57:00:37 – 00:57:05:58
Agent Palmer
You.

00:57:06:03 – 00:57:31:48
Agent Palmer
There’s a lot more to be said. I’m sure Allen is an intense guy, and, well, not everyone will agree with his politics. His reasoning is on fairly solid ground. Unless you’re trying to exploit people, then of course you don’t think his reasoning is solid. But what Allen has spent the last few decades fighting for, and what he has laid down in his book, is to make things better.

00:57:31:53 – 00:57:59:34
Agent Palmer
And that’s how we improve. We get better. There’s a reason he doesn’t say he is working to make the bad turn good. Well, long term that is the goal. But in the immediate moment upon which we are all too often judged in a what have you done for me lately kind of way, then it’s about making the bad better, or at least less bad, and then doing it again, and it will even get less bad.

00:57:59:34 – 00:58:29:58
Agent Palmer
And eventually in smaller increments it will turn okay. And one day maybe you will have turned the bad to good, but that’s increments of making the bad better. As we talk about there is always a bad guy, but that also means there’s always something to do. What is it you have to find out for yourself? Very rarely is the bad guy going to come up to you and tell you what it is they are doing and how to stop it, like so many bad movie villains.

00:58:30:03 – 00:58:51:53
Agent Palmer
But if you see something that needs fixing, ask around. Talk to whoever you need to. There are always causes and organizations that need help. Reach out to the one that will most align with the thing you’re hoping to solve. As Allen says, I’m cynical enough to know what I’m up against, but optimistic enough to pick the fight anyway.

00:58:51:58 – 00:59:17:00
Agent Palmer
Those are words to live up to. Some of us may be cynical enough but lack the optimism. Others may be optimistic but lack the cynicism. But those who can, as Allen says, be cynical enough to know what they are up against and optimistic enough to do it anyway. Those are the ones who change the world. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 30.

00:59:17:04 – 00:59:38:36
Agent Palmer
As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can tweet me at AJ Palmer and the show at The Palmer Files. You can get Alan’s book, The Pursuit of Fairness Fighting for What’s Right in a world that’s so wrong at most major retailers.

00:59:38:36 – 00:59:59:17
Agent Palmer
And don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings, including the review of Alan’s book on Agent Paul Mccolm. Email can be sent to the show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. If you have any feedback on this or any previous episode, or if there’s a topic or guest you’d like me to consider.

00:59:59:22 – 01:00:06:39
Unknown
You.

01:00:06:44 – 01:00:13:15
Unknown
Leave.

01:00:13:20 – 01:00:20:26
Unknown
Me.

01:00:20:31 – 01:00:25:39
Unknown
Leave.

01:00:25:44 – 01:00:30:41
Unknown
Me.

01:00:30:46 – 01:00:35:44
Unknown
Leave.

01:00:35:48 – 01:00:38:27
Unknown
Me. Alan.

01:00:38:27 – 01:00:40:38
Agent Palmer
Do you have one final question for me?

01:00:40:43 – 01:00:53:08
Alan Jennings
Jason. Is there anything going on in the world today that gives you hope that we can get past such a dark time for our country?

01:00:53:13 – 01:01:19:43
Agent Palmer
I yes, I think while I don’t love the idea of the way politics is run, and what I mean by that is like I get a flier in the mail every day because as a independent, both sides think they can. And I look at these pieces and go, well, this is supposed to sway my mind. And and that’s both sides, right?

01:01:19:43 – 01:01:54:11
Agent Palmer
I don’t care which political party it is. Like, I just, you know, that’s that not a thing. I, you know, that’s not going to sway my vote. But I see these independent, ads on like, YouTube that are like, it may be hard, but voting is important. You might have to wait in line for that. But people are starting to come out of the woodwork and understand that while it is just a ballot like that’s all it is, it’s that simple.

01:01:54:16 – 01:02:24:36
Agent Palmer
It’s not that simple. And I have a little bit of hope because you know what? It’s not it’s it’s a message that’s important. That is apparently taken until now to get out. We we didn’t see this in any previous election. We didn’t see people saying it may not be an in and out scenario. You may not drive to your polling place and vote, and 30 minutes later you’re back home watching TV.

01:02:24:41 – 01:02:52:40
Agent Palmer
That’s not how it works. It’s more complicated than that, but it’s important. And I feel like maybe it has to come to this weird, you know, like apocryphal, kind of like, you know, end of the world scenario for people to get, you know, involved. But I feel like this is the that’s the one thing that gives me hope, except.

01:02:52:44 – 01:03:16:38
Agent Palmer
And I asked her, is this because this is my cynicism is what happens with I you know what? Okay, the 2020 election, it is what it is. What about the 2024 election like that? Like I immediately go, it’s great that there’s probably going to be more voters. And then there have ever been as far as percentages go. But can we maintain that?

01:03:16:48 – 01:03:47:43
Agent Palmer
Like what? Like what happens. So I’m hopeful for like right now. So that’s one piece. But the other piece is the, the, the sharing of common sense. There are ads everywhere that say, we’re all in this together. Well, I don’t think it needs to be said. I’m glad someone saying it. Right, because it’s one of those scenarios where what, where was this before?

01:03:47:48 – 01:04:14:03
Agent Palmer
Like, I guess we have to wait to be attacked. We have to wait for democracy to come crumbling down. And, you know, maybe maybe there’ll be a republic left. Who knows? But we have to wait for that to happen. And I feel like there are places within certain communities where the bigger picture is no longer important, because the communities are starting to come together now.

01:04:14:03 – 01:04:29:31
Agent Palmer
It’s not on a grand scale, and it’s definitely not on a national scale, but on small community levels. You start to read articles and see these things. That gives me some hope. So I’m looking for it wherever I can find it.

01:04:29:45 – 01:04:55:10
Alan Jennings
Yeah, well, you know, Partizanship matters a lot less at the local level. So if you can take Partizanship out of the problem solving process, it makes things work better the further up you go. State and then national politics. Partizanship, of course, becomes so sharp it’s almost killing us, you know? Yeah. But, you know, at the local level, there are lots of things you can do with Republicans or Democrats or whoever is the other side for you and get things done.

01:04:55:10 – 01:05:03:23
Alan Jennings
And that’s that’s part of the reason why, you know, I am still filled with life is the the possibility that we can get these things done at the local level.

01:05:03:28 – 01:05:13:02
Agent Palmer
I’m I’m not optimistic. I don’t know if I ever will be like, that’s just not in my nature. But I’m I have a degree of hopefulness.

01:05:13:07 – 01:05:18:25
Alan Jennings
Yeah, well, keep at it. Don’t give up. Get out there and do something about it.

–End Transcription–

This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).