Episode 32 features the return of Essa Hansen (also Nia) to discuss her book Nophek Gloss, which is the first book of The Graven Trilogy, as well as, first work and second work, universal truths, and process.
If you would like to know more about her day job (first work) at Skywalker Sound, listen to Episode 21 where we discuss Sound Design.
During the episode we cover:
- Is it real vs does it feel real
- Reading books without knowing anything
- Where ideas come from
- World-building
- Workshopping
- Building a trilogy
- Doing press and promotion
- Tips for others
- Universal Truths
- Diversity
- And much more…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
‘Nophek Gloss’ is a genre-defying good time from debut novelist Essa Hansen
The Palmer Files Episode 21: Sound Design with Nia Hansen
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:03 – 00:00:26:45
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. Val Kilmer’s memoir, I’m Your Huckleberry is worth Your Time. Nophek gloss is a genre defying good time. From this week’s guest. And Skies of Arcadia is a brilliant game. And that’s a hill I’m willing to die on. This is The Palmer Files, episode 32 with other Nia Hansen, who is returning with the first book of the Graven trilogy, Nophek gloss, which is also what we talk about.
00:00:26:45 – 00:01:09:27
Agent Palmer
Well, no spoilers or anything, but we discussed how the book was developed, what it’s like to work on a trilogy, universal truths, and much, much more. Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:01:09:31 – 00:01:33:26
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to the Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 32nd episode is Nia Hanson, who is returning to the show as promised. Because since we last spoke on Mike, her book Nophek gloss, the first book of the Graven Trilogy is out and available. I was able to read this novel before we spoke, and let me tell you, it’s wonderful.
00:01:33:28 – 00:01:57:49
Agent Palmer
My review is on the Agent palmer.com, but suffice to say that you will definitely want to get your hands on this book if you enjoy science fiction action, adventure. It really is genre defying. Now Nia is returning, and if you missed episode 21, in which we discuss her day job as a sound engineer, Skywalker sound well, then go back into the archives and get listening.
00:01:57:54 – 00:02:26:31
Agent Palmer
This is all about writing and process, because when the topic came up towards the end of episode 21, it would have been another episode, and thus it was better to save it. And now we have that other episode, and it’s time for me to share that with you. We discuss her writing process, my going in completely blind to reading her book, The Complexities of publishing the first book of a trilogy while editing book two and drafting book three.
00:02:26:31 – 00:02:48:29
Agent Palmer
While concurrent on a promotional tour for that first book, and so much else that it’s much better if I just stop babbling and we get going with the conversation before we get into it. Remember that if you want to discuss the episode as you listen or after, you can tweet me at Agent Palmer, the show at The Palmer Files, or Nia at S.A. Hanson.
00:02:48:29 – 00:03:11:16
Agent Palmer
That’s SSA. And then you can get her book, Nophek Gloss at most major retailers and see her event schedule at S.A. hanson.com. That’s spelled the same way as the Twitter handle. Email can be sent to the show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com. And don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings, including my review of Norfolk Glass on Agent palmer.com.
00:03:11:21 – 00:03:20:59
Agent Palmer
So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:03:21:04 – 00:03:45:08
Agent Palmer
Nia, when I had you last on, we had talked about you having a book coming out and that we were going to save a lot of that conversation. But one of the things I asked you was, is it real? So I’m going to start with the you have the book physically in your house now. Is it real?
00:03:45:13 – 00:04:07:02
Essa Hansen
Yeah. There’s there’s a difference between is it real and does it feel real because it’s I have known that it’s been a real thing for, you know, since I got the book deal. But definitely having the physical copy adds another veil of realism to it, especially this year where we’re so isolated from each other. And like most all of my social connections and communication is all digital.
00:04:07:02 – 00:04:25:05
Essa Hansen
So the world starts to feel really closed and and surreal just in general. And then writing on top of that adds another layer of surreality. So actually getting the physical book and being like, oh yeah, okay, this is a real thing that’s going to be on shelves and it’s going to be in readers hands. It’s great.
00:04:25:10 – 00:04:54:13
Agent Palmer
So I have I’ve read Novick Glass, and I absolutely loved it, but I’m, I’m a I’m a man of spoiler free reviews here. And we’re going to discuss this in a spoiler free way. So I’m actually going to throw it to you for like a quick synopsis because like, I, I don’t know, like what not I don’t want to give away too much.
00:04:54:18 – 00:05:11:41
Essa Hansen
Well then there’s sort of I always struggle with that because the first two chapters are kind of. I felt like a spoiler, like the the premise or not. Not so much that it’s a spoiler, but just like I don’t want readers to not get the surprise of it, sure, but there’s no way not just to spoil the first two chapters.
00:05:11:50 – 00:05:29:37
Essa Hansen
So that’s why there’s stuff later in the book that I try and conceal. But I think I’m not an author that’s really good at doing twists intentionally. So I think part of it is me trying to preserve, like my little nugget of surprise is built into the opening.
00:05:29:42 – 00:05:48:44
Agent Palmer
Well, I mean, so, from the, the, the blurb, like which I will just straight up read because it seems like, like before I actually read this. Did did you write the blurb or did you, like, submit the book and then somebody else wrote the blurb?
00:05:48:49 – 00:06:13:10
Essa Hansen
Yeah, my editor writes the blurb and they’re conferring with, you know, sales and marketing. So the the blurb or the copy on books is very much engineered to target readers, and sometimes it’s not completely accurate or the the details are a little bit skewed to make it more exciting or like to appeal to a very, you know, specific, leadership.
00:06:13:14 – 00:06:18:02
Agent Palmer
I, I’m going to read this because we need to I need to tease this for everybody. But then we.
00:06:18:02 – 00:06:21:08
Essa Hansen
Need to tell people with the book. Yes. So.
00:06:21:13 – 00:06:45:30
Agent Palmer
Caden’s planet is destroyed, is family gone? And his only hope for survival is a crew of misfit aliens and a mysterious ship that seems to have a soul and a universe of its own. Together, they will show him that the universe is much bigger, much more advanced, and much more mysterious than Caden had ever imagined. But the universe hides dangers as well.
00:06:45:35 – 00:06:54:00
Agent Palmer
And soon Caden has his own plans. Now, I did not read that before I went in. Like, oh.
00:06:54:00 – 00:06:54:47
Essa Hansen
You went in blind?
00:06:54:48 – 00:07:32:20
Agent Palmer
I went in completely blind and I shouldn’t say so. I wasn’t completely blind. I follow you on Twitter and during this process of writing this first book, I kind of gleaned some of the sci fi aspects from your Twitter, like, oh, I’m researching physics, or I’m like, so I kind of pulled in some of the things, and, and it’s, it’s kind of a unique way to get a feel for a book as the process by which the author’s like, well, this is what I’m looking into now, right?
00:07:32:22 – 00:07:50:16
Agent Palmer
Like this is writing the 21st 30 whatever century we’re in anymore. Were you worried about sharing too much? I mean, obviously Twitter is a public platform, and and you’re you’re still writing, but.
00:07:50:20 – 00:08:16:26
Essa Hansen
That’s a good question. I hadn’t thought of that before. I guess I am like, I won’t I won’t share things that are spoilers, but if it seems, I guess the world building aspects are more safe, I think because the world and you know, some of the technology and aliens and that stuff is cool and I think gets people interested, but it’s not spoiling the plot, or anything, you know, character specific.
00:08:16:30 – 00:08:25:05
Essa Hansen
So there’s still a lot to explore in the book, but they can get the little tidbits of the world and like the setting that they’re going to be in. Three.
00:08:25:10 – 00:08:34:33
Agent Palmer
So, I mean, we’re going to go back for a moment. Did you always want to write a book? I’m not saying this book. I’m just saying in general, like, did you always want to write a book?
00:08:34:38 – 00:09:05:51
Essa Hansen
I always wanted to write. Okay, I don’t think I don’t think I had like a book as my goal. I was always just the process of it and the world building and exploring the characters and themes and message really engaged me, you know? It was my passion from a very young age, but I don’t think I ever encapsulated that in I want to write a book, or I want it to be a book that’s on the shelves, or, you know, I need to be an author.
00:09:05:56 – 00:09:21:11
Essa Hansen
I wasn’t sort of applying those concrete aspects to it. I just loved the process that I love creating and I love the medium of words. So I always loved writing, but I didn’t need it to be a book. I didn’t need to be an author. I was just immersed in the process.
00:09:21:18 – 00:09:41:04
Agent Palmer
All right, so you’re immersed in the process. Where does this story come from? Like is it you wake up from a dream and you’re like, I, I have a story, or is it just like, coalesced of like, you know, I’ve been involved in all of these other creative pursuits and projects, and I think I want to do that myself.
00:09:41:08 – 00:10:15:11
Essa Hansen
My ideas usually come from like some little small spark that then you could just expands into a world and a story. As you know, I’m brainstorming, brainstorming more and exploring it myself. So I was writing other things and then this, this little seed idea for this one came in, and it always the ones that snowball and that get my excitement going, I know, is something that I need to run with, because that’ll show up in the writing like the author sense of excitement and and passion for the project and love of their characters will show up in the writing.
00:10:15:22 – 00:10:24:00
Essa Hansen
So I always go for whatever idea is pulling me at the time. So this one started from a little spark and grew from there, and I just ran with it.
00:10:24:03 – 00:10:47:01
Agent Palmer
Now it is a trilogy at a certain point. Do you know it’s more than one book? Or, you know, like what was the first draft like? Was it was it the book? You know, I know it’s not the book that I just read, but was it, you know, more than that? Was it less than that? Like, where’s where’s the process from.
00:10:47:01 – 00:10:49:42
Agent Palmer
Like I have an idea.
00:10:49:46 – 00:11:12:48
Essa Hansen
So my first idea actually so started with the world the bubble multiverse. And then I knew I needed a character to have any kind of plot at all, like to be able to explore the world. I needed a character then I original idea had Caden already an adult, you know, with a ship and a crew and, you know, established and able to explore any of the different worlds in this multiverse that he wanted.
00:11:12:53 – 00:11:33:05
Essa Hansen
But as I started to explore his backstory, like, okay, how did this character come to be where he is now, it went all the way back to his childhood, and that story ended up more interesting and intimate than I had originally planned and turned into this from a sort of Prolog short story idea like, I’ll just, you know, jot down this character’s backstory.
00:11:33:19 – 00:11:36:51
Essa Hansen
It just kept going and became this whole first novel.
00:11:36:53 – 00:11:57:19
Agent Palmer
You sound like at least one of my creative writing teachers in my in my education somewhere, like, you sound like their perfect student. They’re like, oh, where does this person, where does this character come from? And I’m like, I got a paragraph. I here’s a paragraph for where this character comes from. And you’re like, no, I got a book.
00:11:57:34 – 00:12:04:33
Agent Palmer
It’s like, oh, I, I guess that’s what they want. I’m somewhere in between is probably what they wanted. Right. But like, that’s.
00:12:04:45 – 00:12:12:43
Essa Hansen
Yeah. Well, like my in my other projects, I don’t have a whole novel for every character’s backstory, which is a good thing.
00:12:12:47 – 00:12:37:34
Agent Palmer
All of you have a crew, as, as explained in the blurb. But there are a lot of characters. There are a lot of moving pieces. I’ve seen some of the, press around the book, and space opera gets tossed around quite often, and and rightly so, because what we associate with space operas is an ensemble cast.
00:12:37:34 – 00:13:01:43
Agent Palmer
It’s not like this one guy and his sidekick, you know, it’s it’s like a full Lord of the rings thing, as opposed to just here’s Sam and Frodo, and that’s all you get, right? And you do a great job of world building with all of these characters. While it’s not maybe not in the book. Do you have like, backgrounds for all of the characters?
00:13:01:47 – 00:13:20:37
Essa Hansen
I do. So one thing that I knew I wanted with this book. So every book I challenge myself to do something I haven’t tried before, like something that seems new. So I know I’m always stretching myself out of my comfort zone and learning new skills. So I knew I wanted to do an ensemble cast because it seemed difficult.
00:13:20:42 – 00:13:47:28
Essa Hansen
And I didn’t know I was throwing myself in the deep end of that possibility because there’s two ways to do an ensemble cast. You either, have an established group, and you drop the reader in and you have to get them up to speed with, you know, this, the dynamics that are already established, or you have the characters coming together as the plot goes on and you get to see their relationships putting for the first time.
00:13:47:33 – 00:13:55:16
Essa Hansen
So I dropped the kid into an established crew, for the first time and then, you know, explored that messiness.
00:13:55:21 – 00:13:56:00
Agent Palmer
Why not do both?
00:13:56:00 – 00:14:19:54
Essa Hansen
But yeah, I want to do both. But I did have to develop backstory for all of them. And originally a lot more of that was in the book. I ended up having to merge. I had a coming of age plot and a revenge plot, and they weren’t quite melded together well, so it was a lot slower and there was a lot more bonding with the crew and, you know, their backstory.
00:14:19:59 – 00:14:56:00
Essa Hansen
On the relationships with Caden. So I condensed all that, but I still had to do a lot of backstory for each of them. Not like not not a whole novel. Not a whole novel for all five. But enough to sort of figure out their dynamics with each other and make sure they’re all so different enough. And I what I ended up doing craft wise was I made a grid with the characters on the top and the side, and then in each cell I would put their relationship with each other, like how they felt about each other, and that would show me like where I had weak points that I hadn’t really developed or,
00:14:56:02 – 00:15:18:38
Essa Hansen
you know, characters that don’t interact enough. And it helped me sort of read them all together throughout the novel and figure out places to show their interactions with each other and like, and how Cayden being dumped in sort of mixes up their dynamic and shows. You know, the system seemed like it was working, but there’s really stuff, there’s shit that they have to work out still that they were just avoiding.
00:15:18:38 – 00:15:21:56
Essa Hansen
And so a new person in the family stirs that all up.
00:15:21:56 – 00:15:28:55
Agent Palmer
As we’re talking now, you, you have at least one more book to go, right?
00:15:29:06 – 00:15:39:35
Essa Hansen
Yeah, that’ll be three books. I have the first draft of the second book done, but it’ll need editing and revision, and I’m just now starting to wrap my head around book three.
00:15:39:49 – 00:16:05:57
Agent Palmer
Did you? I think there’s two big questions that I personally have. One, have you taken a moment to celebrate? Like I have a book that’s published, like, is that a thing that you have celebrated? Because I when we spoke the last time you were, you were working on on book two and I was like, but you you didn’t celebrate book one yet.
00:16:05:57 – 00:16:11:38
Agent Palmer
So where is that in this whole thing?
00:16:11:43 – 00:16:38:16
Essa Hansen
I’ve done little small celebrations for myself. But also, this is a weird year. Like we can’t get together with people. I can’t have a book launch day, you know, it’ll be me at home on launch day. Not with friends and not. Or not at a bookstore. So that’s definitely poorly encouraged me to not celebrate as much as I might if we weren’t all in lockdown.
00:16:38:21 – 00:17:04:21
Essa Hansen
But I to celebrations get, you know, bottle of champagne for a milestone or that sort of thing and celebrate with friends online. Everybody and turn me on. But there hasn’t really been. Once again, going back to the first question that the reality of it isn’t quite there, so it still feels a little bit unreal. And unfortunately, that makes it easier for me to just turn to the next thing, the work thing that has to get done.
00:17:04:26 – 00:17:11:36
Essa Hansen
And the deadlines are pretty tight. So it’s like you finish one thing, but it’s never done. Just move to the next.
00:17:11:41 – 00:17:32:15
Agent Palmer
And then I guess the second part is, did you have an overarching plot? Like, I’m not asking for spoilers, but like, did you did you see where a second and third book could go? Or was it like, here’s the first book? Oh no, what do I do now?
00:17:32:20 – 00:17:59:40
Essa Hansen
So for an author with a literary agent, the, the secret phrase is standalone with series potential. So you you want to write a book that, you know is a complete novel on its own and could just be one book, but there’s potential for a series if the publishers that you’re shopping it around to want to do a trilogy or an open series or however many books or duology, whatever.
00:17:59:45 – 00:18:19:18
Essa Hansen
So I wrote the first book with that in mind. Like the main plot wraps up, the final chapter is like a big hook into the next one. But I think and and I ended up, you know, putting in more foreshadowing and, you know, building in stuff that will lead to the next books. But the first novel is pretty self-contained.
00:18:19:23 – 00:18:43:29
Essa Hansen
And that’s how we that’s how we submitted it to publishers. So I didn’t have a trilogy in mind. And I knew that the chances were super, super high that the book would not be. But, you know, I’d have to put it on the shelf and write something new. So it doesn’t really behoove you to develop more and completely draft other books and spend that energy when you could be working on the next thing that might be the one that sells.
00:18:43:34 – 00:19:10:31
Essa Hansen
So I had the first book, and because it’s a backstory book, and I had originally thought to start when he was older, I did have some plot of that, you know, older cadence book sitting there. And so when I had to start thinking about the trilogy, that’s why I started. So I knew book two would be some of that content, and I could re sculpt it to fit the new characters and, and, build up the first book.
00:19:10:45 – 00:19:24:45
Essa Hansen
But I actually had a lot of a lot of meat ready to go, which is helpful. But book three now, you know, has to has to culminate everything from one and two. So that’s pretty much new territory.
00:19:24:50 – 00:19:52:05
Agent Palmer
We’re going to talk process for a moment because I know you have a day job, and we covered that very well on a previous episode, but you are coming home and or you’re you’re finishing work for the day and, and then you’re writing, and then you’re writing and then you’re writing, like, what is that the process.
00:19:52:10 – 00:20:11:45
Essa Hansen
Pretty much. And some people will get this joke. But in my head, I think, like there’s that there’s that meme of the hobbits where they’re like, well, and we’ve had we’ve had one breakfast. Yes. What about second breakfast? Sure. So I get home and I’m like, I finished first work. It’s time for a second work.
00:20:11:50 – 00:20:31:50
Essa Hansen
So yeah. Oh, I’ll do as much writing as I can in the morning. And if I’m really pressed for deadlines, you know, I’ll have my my brain, my subconscious working on problems during the day and my day job. Maybe I’ll write during my lunch break, and then I get home and I start second work. So then I’ll work as long as I need to, you know, be meeting my my deadlines.
00:20:31:55 – 00:20:52:25
Essa Hansen
And I find that so my my sound work and writing are both creative and both in the same genres. But there’s enough of a difference between the gears that they use in my head that I can go from one to the other and not, you know, be completely burned out. And like, I’ve been creative for ten hours. Let’s be creative for eight more.
00:20:52:30 – 00:21:00:27
Essa Hansen
I still have enough creative energy somehow to keep working, but physically it’s really demanding.
00:21:00:32 – 00:21:23:47
Agent Palmer
If you. If so, you have written both in the morning in the during the day and at night. Is there a I am a morning writer. I am an afternoon writer. I am a night writer. Like I, I understand there’s a deadline and you have to write with the time you have. But, you know, if I said you’re just a writer now, that’s all you are.
00:21:23:47 – 00:21:30:59
Agent Palmer
Like, can you point to like, this is when I’m more creative.
00:21:31:04 – 00:21:51:58
Essa Hansen
I don’t know that I have a frame of reference anymore for like when I’m the least tired. I’m just tired all the time. I think definitely I’m not an an early, early morning person, but I think in the morning, you know, they say you only have a certain number of decisions you can make during the day, like just function wise.
00:21:52:03 – 00:22:22:34
Essa Hansen
So I think in the morning my brain is a lot sharper and I can make more decisions that I can, you know, work on story stuff easier. And by the end of the day, I don’t have the energy to be creative, but I’m not as sharp. And instead of just working through. So I get the most done in the morning, especially if it’s the first thing I turn to like, go get my coffee and I’ll kind of get ready and I’ll turn my brain when it’s at its freshest, right to my story world before I dove into any other worlds.
00:22:22:46 – 00:22:40:31
Essa Hansen
So by the end of the day, and you know, I’ve been in the film world, I’ve been interacting socially with my crew or whoever, and like I’ve, I been in a bunch of different realms. It feels like. And then then to try to shove myself back into the story world, I’m like, I’m bringing sort of this de baggage with me.
00:22:40:36 – 00:22:44:51
Essa Hansen
So the morning feels freshest and clear, clear minded.
00:22:45:06 – 00:23:12:03
Agent Palmer
Do you? Look, we’re not in a scenario where you have a 7,000 pound, you know, typewriter, right? So are you. Are you just, you know, there’s a specific writing laptop or like, you know, are you, you know, is there a desk? Is there a writing space or, wherever I put the laptop down is where I write.
00:23:12:08 – 00:23:35:51
Essa Hansen
Yeah. Where, where, where, where the laptop is. It’s with me most of the time. So it’s at home and I take it to work. So it’s always available, and it’s what I use for communicating and like iMessages and email and all that. Social media. So it’s sort of a communication hub. And at home my apartment’s really small, so there isn’t really space to have, like, I don’t have an office, I don’t even have a desk.
00:23:35:56 – 00:23:43:38
Essa Hansen
So a lot of times it’ll be me sitting on the couch with my cat. And just working there.
00:23:43:43 – 00:24:09:52
Agent Palmer
Do you use any physical mediums like I even I like? I’m just a blogger, and I still use physical notes. I’m that guy, like, oh yeah, you may see a 1200 word post, but there’s some notes scattered about my desk at all times. Or are you have you managed to keep the process completely digital?
00:24:09:57 – 00:24:28:31
Essa Hansen
I think I also have the notes scattered, but in a digital form. Okay. Like, I, I don’t write longhand because my hand can’t go fast enough for my brain, so I get really frustrated. And if my brain keeps going, then I’m losing information like I’ll forget because I can’t keep up for sure.
00:24:28:31 – 00:24:29:15
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:24:29:20 – 00:24:57:38
Essa Hansen
Like so, I type really fast and digitally I can my fingers can type at the speed that my brain is going. So all of my, all of my notes and stuff and even how I’m like, copying and pasting and moving things around and formatting stuff, is so fast and streamlined now digitally. But when I do try and go to paper meeting, it just feels really clunky.
00:24:57:43 – 00:25:09:03
Essa Hansen
Although I do appreciate how it engages a different part of your brain to be using physical medium versus digital use, you know, see things or think in a different way that you might not see.
00:25:09:03 – 00:25:30:08
Agent Palmer
And, you know, I’m, I’m, I you say that and I just immediately go to like, well, when I sit down, let’s say I’m going to do a movie review, I have I have options, right? I can I can watch the movie on my computer, which has multiple screens, so I can have a note document open anywhere. And, you know, I can do that.
00:25:30:08 – 00:25:49:33
Agent Palmer
I can sit on the couch with my phone and take notes on my phone, or I can sit there with a pad and paper, as I usually do, and make notes and. It might engage a different part of your brain. I feel like a more mature adult when I’m sitting there with a pen and paper. I don’t know what it is.
00:25:49:37 – 00:25:51:28
Agent Palmer
But like, I feel.
00:25:51:32 – 00:25:52:19
Essa Hansen
You’re a professional.
00:25:52:21 – 00:26:01:41
Agent Palmer
Yes, yes, I, I don’t know what what the difference is. Right. Because obviously I’m taking for the I’m taking the same note.
00:26:01:46 – 00:26:11:21
Essa Hansen
Well, it’s kind of like having a clipboard. If you had a clipboard, you would look really professional, like you are seriously working. Your brain says that you’re doing it properly.
00:26:11:26 – 00:26:39:41
Agent Palmer
Yeah, yeah. I, I want to ask you. Yeah, the science is one thing, but you get into politics a bit, and you’re not just world building, but you’re building systems of government. And they’re unique, you know, you’re not you’re not just, Well, I’ll just take democracy, you know, or I’ll just take a republic or a monarchy like you created something was.
00:26:39:46 – 00:26:56:23
Agent Palmer
Which adds to the story. Absolutely. But your handicap on creating this goes up. It’s like, well, I’m just going to throw in, you know, there’s all these things, and you decided to make new everything.
00:26:56:27 – 00:27:18:37
Essa Hansen
When you phrase it like that, I think it’s because I don’t like writing politics. I find it really difficult, like I it’s not my wheelhouse. So I find it difficult. So I try and make it easier for myself. I try and create something that’s not like the things that I know or like something different than your standard politics.
00:27:18:42 – 00:27:41:20
Essa Hansen
But it’s good. And if it ends up being more interesting and feeling unique, I have writer friends that are really, really good at politics, in their novels, and they’re world building, and I admire them greatly because it’s something that I it feels like a wall when I cannot do it. But I do like the systems that I created for no effect glass.
00:27:41:25 – 00:27:56:44
Essa Hansen
They’re sort of nonstandard but focused on, you know, themes and messages that I find interesting. I think that’s a good pivot point for, for a topic where you’re you’re not feeling comfortable or it’s not really your favorite. You focus on the things that you do. Like.
00:27:56:49 – 00:28:26:52
Agent Palmer
I mean, I like that there’s, there’s ethics and, like a philosophy within all of the characters. And the they’re not all they’re not all shared even with the people that are, you know, together. But I it it I do have to ask, like, did you consume books while you were writing? Like, because I know there are people that are like, well, I’m writing.
00:28:26:52 – 00:28:39:43
Agent Palmer
I can’t be reading right now. But you talked about other authors, so, like, do you have, like, do you still have time for consulting.
00:28:39:48 – 00:29:07:53
Essa Hansen
Between first work and second work? I’ve, I’ve done a great deal of beta reading and critiquing, for my writers group, which does double duty because I’m learning as I’m critiquing. You learn a ton of craft from critiquing and engaging that editorial part of the brain and reading the story, looking for, you know, ways to improve it and what it’s trying to say and what the author’s trying to say.
00:29:07:58 – 00:29:30:48
Essa Hansen
So I’ve done a lot of better reading, which is great learning experience, but it’s a lot slower than reading for pleasure because I’m, you know, chewing on the material in a very different way. And I try to fit in pleasure reading as well, but that’s like a day job in my writing and critiquing for others. And pleasure reading is a whole lot, not to mention any kind of other media that I want to consume.
00:29:30:48 – 00:29:55:30
Essa Hansen
You know, movies I’ve missed and TV shows and video games and all of that. So I have to juggle what I do when. And I’m also, the type of person that wants to like, if I’m going to get into a video game or a new book, I kind of want to really dive into it and not, you know, read 20 minutes here and ten minutes there and kneel an hour here over a long span of time.
00:29:55:30 – 00:30:12:58
Essa Hansen
I want to really be able to get into it and give it the attention that it deserves. So I’d rather have like a weekend, to, to devour a book or to just play a video game the whole time and get really soaked into it. But that times even rarer.
00:30:13:05 – 00:30:23:42
Agent Palmer
I was going to say, how long has that been? Because, I mean, if you’re starting book three now, like, did you give yourself a weekend when you handed in the first draft of book two?
00:30:23:47 – 00:30:35:57
Essa Hansen
My friends convinced me to take a day off. As we were negotiating, I was arguing. I was like, I need to start on book three immediately. They’re like, no, take a day off. You’ve worked hard.
00:30:36:00 – 00:30:45:19
Agent Palmer
It are like like, when you finish the third book, will you take like an actual vacation?
00:30:45:24 – 00:31:07:13
Essa Hansen
I hope so. Well, and the thing is, the so book, I’ll turn in book three and we’ll do edits and I’ll turn in those. But then there’s promotion and like so leading up to lunch, there’s still a lot of work to do. And it’s a bit nebulous when the book is actually done. Done. Like all of them, the marketing and promotion for it.
00:31:07:22 – 00:31:30:04
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah, you say that. But right now your done with. But right now you’re promoting book one, you’re going to be doing edits and rewrites on book two while starting the actual draft on book three. When you get to book three, it will be much easier. It will just be this is book three.
00:31:30:08 – 00:31:46:20
Essa Hansen
I would hope so. But if I’m if I’m working on the next thing that I want to sell, I either a new series or a new standalone or something in the same world, then I will still be doing at least two things at once.
00:31:46:25 – 00:31:52:11
Agent Palmer
I you seem to be due for like a reset of some kind.
00:31:52:16 – 00:32:13:52
Essa Hansen
I would like one I don’t. I will try and build one, and I’m actually the main thing that I’m focusing on is. So I have my day job and my writing work, and the two at once. And like you said, kind of working on three books at the same time. Plus, film work is too much. So I’m working on trying to stagger those schedules better.
00:32:13:52 – 00:32:20:17
Essa Hansen
So I’m not, you know, deep into film while I’m also elbows deep in whenever multiple books.
00:32:20:22 – 00:32:49:52
Agent Palmer
I, I don’t want to add something to your plate, but I read this book and, like, I couldn’t escape the feeling that, like, this would work well in another medium. And I, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that this does not belong in theaters. This is a series like I, I and it.
00:32:49:57 – 00:33:19:32
Agent Palmer
I think there was a point and I honestly can’t remember. And it would be spoiler anyway. Right? Because it happened like two thirds of the way into the book. But there’s a point where I went like, oh, this would be great. Episodic television. Like, this would be great. Like, like like in the vein of like a Battlestar Galactica, where it just goes on and on and on and it and like, have you been able to go back and kind of process that other part of the the business?
00:33:19:32 – 00:33:21:10
Agent Palmer
I guess?
00:33:21:14 – 00:33:54:30
Essa Hansen
Well, that question comes up a lot in interviews, like everyone wants to know, like if you could, if your book could be a movie or a TV show, everybody game, like, what would you pick or who would you want to cast? Or and my original idea when I had Caden as an older adult, you know, cool hero with a cool ship and a cool crew, exploring, you know, boundless worlds in this gigantic multiverse with sort of more of a serial idea because I knew I could go anywhere with him.
00:33:54:30 – 00:34:14:38
Essa Hansen
And like any kind of world and you could actually do any genre within this multiverse, like, there’s so much possibility. And I think that’s probably why my brain pushed me to his backstory and really containing the message that I wanted to say rather than like, he could do anything like, no, we need a plot. He has to do something specific.
00:34:14:42 – 00:34:40:06
Essa Hansen
So I’m glad it started out in a much smaller scope and expanded from there. But my original idea with the world was definitely like serial exploring different worlds. And when I get asked like, could your book be a film? I, I automatically think of the budget. It would be such a huge visual effects budget because there’s so much weird settings and technology and aliens.
00:34:40:11 – 00:34:52:37
Essa Hansen
It would be a big thing. So yeah, I agree. I think something episodic, like a series would be. We’d be able to explore the world in the themes a lot better and sort of contain the the visual scope of it.
00:34:52:41 – 00:35:04:20
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah. And I there’s, there’s also the part of me that is like, well, how would you condense this into one film? You couldn’t like. Like I.
00:35:04:22 – 00:35:05:21
Essa Hansen
It’s an art to do.
00:35:05:21 – 00:35:26:47
Agent Palmer
That. I’m sure there is. I just, I, I’m like, I don’t I don’t even like vision for that. Right. Like that’s a, that’s a different thing. And I feel like it can’t be you either. You’re you’re the mother. You’re the father. You’re the creator of this. So it’s like, well, you just chop off like, like like if we do this, like somebody comes up to you is like, well, this is a five hour movie cut out three hours.
00:35:26:47 – 00:35:28:00
Agent Palmer
And what?
00:35:28:04 – 00:35:50:23
Essa Hansen
Yeah. It’s what, what to lose. What can you sacrifice? And it’s already it’s a very fast paced book, and it’s actually pretty short compared to a lot in the genre. Like it’s very tight and lean. So to try and to speed up the plot to fit a movie wouldn’t work. You would have to focus and and cut things out.
00:35:50:28 – 00:36:12:05
Essa Hansen
But I also also thought of the world building in terms of like, an MMO, RPG, like designing settings and politics and factions and characters and species. It’s like if a if the reader wanted to create their own character in this world, like, you know, who could they be? You know, what would their goal be? What faction would they be?
00:36:12:10 – 00:36:23:26
Essa Hansen
So a lot of my world building was sort of thinking in that scope, like where a reader could, could put themself in this world and have a lot of options for like designing who they are and what they would want to do with that.
00:36:23:29 – 00:36:52:38
Agent Palmer
When I want to go back to the the selling of the book, you sell the book, which is a process I am completely unfamiliar with, which I’m presuming is you would get an agent to help sell it for you, but do the publishing houses like give you critiques on that first draft and like, we will buy this if or is it just like, oh, this is great for a first draft.
00:36:52:43 – 00:36:57:58
Agent Palmer
Let us know when you get your second draft. Like it was it somewhere in the middle?
00:36:58:03 – 00:37:22:04
Essa Hansen
Actually, mine was somewhere in the middle, which is unusual. But your literary agent is submitting the manuscript to editors at publishing houses. So the editors who will acquire it, and then they will go through multiple rounds of edits with the author, sometimes really extensive and sometimes not that difficult. And then it’ll go through copy it.
00:37:22:04 – 00:37:46:08
Essa Hansen
It’s in proofreading and all the polishing and formatting until it’s finally a book. But you definitely go through revision and edits to make it the best it can be with, you know, a team of publishing professionals, which is really exciting when you finally sell your book and you realize that there’s a whole team of people wanting to make it better and package it and get it in the hands of readers.
00:37:46:12 – 00:38:12:46
Agent Palmer
How has the process of editing your first book impacted the writing and creating of the second and and then eventual, you know, and now third, because obviously you learn with every edit. It’s kind of a learning process. So you’re not the writer. When you started book two that you were when you started book one and now starting book three, you’re not the writer.
00:38:12:46 – 00:38:34:17
Agent Palmer
You were starting book two. So what? Like what’s changed? What you know and you know, are you now writing to a process? Like, do you like do you know what changes have been made in the first book? So like you, it’s in your head for the second one. Like, is that in there? Are you just still writing to get the story out?
00:38:34:17 – 00:38:37:17
Agent Palmer
Like, where’s where are you?
00:38:37:22 – 00:39:01:31
Essa Hansen
There’s definitely no end to the learning process. Like there’s always craft to learn, there’s always areas to improve on. And I try and be really aware of strengths and weaknesses and the things that I want to work on. And so book two is bigger in scope, and I’m doing some difficult craft mechanics to challenge myself. So I’m definitely out of my comfort zone like I was with book one.
00:39:01:31 – 00:39:23:24
Essa Hansen
Like, I don’t know if I’ll ever be in a comfort zone of any kind because book three or just be in bigger scope and I’ll be trying new things there as well. So I’m definitely the sort of person that keeps pushing themselves to do better. And there’s deadlines and you know, you can’t oh, you can’t be a complete perfectionist because you just won’t have time.
00:39:23:29 – 00:39:43:10
Essa Hansen
Or I felt like it was difficult to keep up with the learning I was doing, like the advancement of my craft and the time that there was to work on the book. Like, you could keep working on the same book over and over and you’re learning so much each time that you would just endlessly be working on the same book.
00:39:43:14 – 00:39:45:23
Essa Hansen
Well, to be able to put it aside.
00:39:45:27 – 00:40:19:00
Agent Palmer
I don’t know who said it, and somebody said it. So this doesn’t come from me, but I have no attribution for this at all. I just wrote it down when I heard it. And that perfection is the enemy of good and like I it’s weird, but like, that was, I got that quote well before I started this podcast, and it’s very entirely possible this podcast doesn’t exist without that quote because like, I had a lot of time to think about, I had years to think about what this show was going to be.
00:40:19:00 – 00:40:40:18
Agent Palmer
And it’s just like, well, I want it to be perfect. So, well, if you want it to be perfect, you’re never going to release that first episode. So you just have to get going. So I get where that is. But it’s also weird because, like, you’re getting a team of eyes on one draft while you’re working on another.
00:40:40:18 – 00:40:54:42
Agent Palmer
So like, you’re getting perspective that you, you didn’t have when you set out to do the first draft and when you’re doing the second one because you, you were it was a so was a much more solo endeavor at that point.
00:40:54:47 – 00:41:19:34
Essa Hansen
Oh yeah. And my editor amazing and like caught things and had a perspective that my critique partners didn’t. My writing group didn’t, my agent didn’t. So it’s like elevated it a bunch to have just professional opinion. But one thing I wanted added in that people don’t talk about is with books like you definitely get fatigue, like after a certain point, working on it over and over and reading it over and over and over.
00:41:19:39 – 00:41:41:32
Essa Hansen
You get tired and you want to move on from the world. And I still love my world and my characters, but you definitely get fatigue from seeing the same thing, especially when you’re in the later stages where you can’t do any dramatic changes. Or maybe you’re you’re at the point where you’re not really seeing any, you know, big changes that you want to fix.
00:41:41:32 – 00:42:00:43
Essa Hansen
Like it’s pretty solid, but you’re still reading it over and over and over, and you kind of want to have fresh energy again to dive into some new territory. So the fatigue, the fatigue and the perfectionism go hand in hand, especially towards the end, is a really interesting kind of mix.
00:42:00:48 – 00:42:30:52
Agent Palmer
Now I, without spoiling anything, is the and you’ve already established that you are a person who challenges yourself, but is part of the challenging yourself away to like expand book two so you’re not in the weeds with the over the, you know, the the repetition of book one. So you’re, you know, you’re not necessarily taking left turns, but you’re, you’re stretching.
00:42:30:52 – 00:42:33:25
Agent Palmer
So it’s new.
00:42:33:30 – 00:43:03:25
Essa Hansen
Yeah. Definitely. Like and I knew for a trilogy, you know your, your scope kind of has to expand. And with a world like this the world needs to expand. You know, we want to understand it better. Maybe we want to understand the past. So I knew it was going to be a lot broader. And just that alone is more difficult than that’s really character driven, pretty focused and arrow straight plot that I had for book one.
00:43:03:30 – 00:43:27:33
Essa Hansen
And even with the ensemble cast in that, it’s, you know, we’re not involving too many other factions. You know, the multiverse feels broad, but we’re not going all over the place. Like the trajectory is pretty straightforward. So book two, I know I would have more points of view and we would be involving you know, bigger political scale and we would be going more locations.
00:43:27:37 – 00:43:32:31
Essa Hansen
And book three, it’s like that, but double I.
00:43:32:36 – 00:44:03:24
Agent Palmer
So immediately I go back to, The Sword of Shannara trilogy, and I, I bring this up for one reason. Book two contains within it a few new characters, which I think is elf Stone. So within Elf Stone’s, there’s a few new characters who then get told the story of book one, The Sword of Shannara. Right.
00:44:03:24 – 00:44:26:06
Agent Palmer
So like within book two, like, had you picked it up without knowing about book one? The events of book one are you’re brought up to speed. Because it’s, you know, apparently everybody’s got the Stan Lee thing, right? Where it’s like it’s always somebody first. Not everybody’s going to read this in order. Was that something that you had to do?
00:44:26:08 – 00:44:47:10
Agent Palmer
Whereas like, you look at something like the Lord of the rings, where it’s one arching story and it’s not quite as episodic necessarily, like you don’t read The Two Towers and find out what happened in The Fellowship. That’s it’s not a thing. So it, you know, was there a discussion or was it like a just did it just happen naturally?
00:44:47:10 – 00:44:51:40
Agent Palmer
Like where does that fit in? Because you are writing a trilogy.
00:44:51:45 – 00:45:10:29
Essa Hansen
It’s definitely an art and a second book to be able to get the reader up to speed without being like on the last episode, you know, although I’ve heard some readers say they really like when there’s like an author’s note at the beginning of the book, just like with a quick recap like, here’s what happened. Thank you.
00:45:10:34 – 00:45:23:22
Essa Hansen
But I again, I prefer the challenge of trying to fit it into the narrative naturally. And like the character might not naturally reflect on, like back when I was doing this and this and this and this and this.
00:45:23:35 – 00:45:24:15
Agent Palmer
Sure.
00:45:24:20 – 00:46:03:50
Essa Hansen
You know, so there’s a crafty trying to fit in reminders for the reader that feel natural, especially in like a deep point of view, like I have where we’re really only experiencing what the characters experiencing or thinking. I can’t intrude extra information without it feeling out of place. So you usually have to figure out, you know, what events you’re putting in the first few chapters that would naturally bring up reminders of, you know, past things that have gone on or even it’s sort of, more micro scale within a scene, you know, something that triggers a memory or gets the character to explain something or, you know, so you’re weaving in all these
00:46:03:50 – 00:46:24:06
Essa Hansen
little bits that hopefully remind the reader, but again, like, you can’t there’s no way to know if the reader has just finished book one and book two is out already, and they dive right into it immediately. So if you have too many reminders, it’s going to be frustrating, or has had five years passed in between them reading book one and two and they, you know, absolutely nothing.
00:46:24:11 – 00:46:39:01
Essa Hansen
So you can’t guess and you can’t. There’s no way to win. So you do your best to write that line between too much dumping of information of the first book, and being so subtle that the reader feels lost.
00:46:39:06 – 00:47:05:30
Agent Palmer
You’re getting response back now from like the early, the early copies that went out to press and, and etc.. Are you I what’s it like to get that kind of response, or any response? Because obviously the first book you have your team that’s helping you, but it’s not like I’m here going like, yeah, it was great.
00:47:05:30 – 00:47:21:04
Agent Palmer
Like, I loved it. I loved when you did X, Y, and Z. So when you start hearing that from the internet at large, what’s that like? Especially when you’re still working on what’s to come?
00:47:21:09 – 00:47:40:42
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I, I’ve heard this from other authors where they see the weirdness of, you know, your first book, when you have a series, your first book is launching, but you’re so deep in the next one that it’s almost hard to, like, look over your shoulder and be like, oh yeah, that other thing, because your brain is just so full focused on the next thing.
00:47:40:47 – 00:47:50:14
Essa Hansen
You’re always ahead of the readers, too. So they’re like commenting on things in the first book in you, your brain is set on, you know, the next phase.
00:47:50:19 – 00:48:13:23
Agent Palmer
Well, you should be used to that. Because if, if I remember correctly, right, we were when we were talking about sound, you said, oh yeah, it’s great when like trailers dropped because weird or like when movies come out because like, we’re done with them already and they’re behind. So for you, this is kind of like the way things are.
00:48:13:23 – 00:48:15:20
Agent Palmer
You’re eternally ahead of the rest.
00:48:15:20 – 00:48:39:44
Essa Hansen
Of us is true. Like, can’t talk about it. Can’t talk about it. Oh, people have it now. I can talk about it. It’s a it’s a weird emotional. Like mentally it’s fine. But it’s still a kind of a weird emotional disconnect because like all of my excitement as an author, even like between book deal and announcement and stuff like that, there’s often such a gap that year you have your emotional reaction, like you were saying, like, did you celebrate?
00:48:39:44 – 00:49:01:31
Essa Hansen
Did you like appreciate your milestone? You had that emotion at one point, but you can’t share it or really talk about it publicly until later. And then when that happens and the public is all excited, it can be hard to get your emotion back in the excitement gear because you were already past that phase. Like, you process my excitement and I celebrate it.
00:49:01:46 – 00:49:25:36
Essa Hansen
So to try and like echo it again can be a bit weird. And maybe other people are better at this where you know, they get back in that that mode really easy. But I find it a little jarring that you’re always sort of skipping over yourself and, and the public and, you know, people who are absorbing your work in film and book books both.
00:49:25:41 – 00:49:35:24
Essa Hansen
But it’s a weird leap frog. It does feel natural because I’m used to it, but it’s still kind of weird to be in a different phase of everybody else. And you’re like, looking back like, oh yeah, this.
00:49:35:29 – 00:49:48:46
Agent Palmer
Is is this for this book in particular? More so than, like, anything else you’ve ever done. Is this the most press you’ve ever done for anything?
00:49:48:51 – 00:50:06:11
Essa Hansen
I was reflecting on this the other day. I was like, I have not. I have done more like video, audio interview, kind of like events and virtual things in the past 2 or 3 months that I’ve done in my entire life. Until now.
00:50:06:15 – 00:50:44:47
Agent Palmer
And, and that will probably continue. Has it again. How is that impacted the process of book two and book three? Because you’re you’re now you’re now actively I mean, we haven’t really done much because I really want to let people be surprised. But like, how has talking about these characters and the process for creating them, like, and revisiting all of these things, like, has that had an impact on the actual creation you’re doing now, or can you compartmentalize those things?
00:50:44:51 – 00:51:16:16
Essa Hansen
I think I can compartmentalize, it’s hard to say because right now, and especially this year, a lot of it is more based on fatigue. Like, I’m I’m managing my own energy and mental health and that on daily basis. So and I’m very shy and nervous and that sort of thing and usually very quiet. So to do events like did you record a podcast or a video interview or a panel is a big learning curve for me and I hope that I’m getting better.
00:51:16:18 – 00:51:19:52
Essa Hansen
I can’t quite tell yet. I feel like I’m getting a bit better.
00:51:19:57 – 00:51:30:29
Agent Palmer
I mean, a better is relative because obviously, you know, I, I might not be as good as the next guy who might be better than the next guy or whatever. You know, whoever.
00:51:30:34 – 00:51:31:30
Essa Hansen
Else, maybe.
00:51:31:35 – 00:51:40:29
Agent Palmer
But are you are you feeling more confident going into these, like now that you’ve done so many of them? Is the confidence building up?
00:51:40:34 – 00:52:05:46
Essa Hansen
No, I don’t think so. Yeah, I don’t know. It still feels like a lot. But going back to energy, so it’s not not that I’m learning things that inform the next books, but that I have to manage. I’m promoting book one. You know, I have to talk about book one. Like I have to get my head back in that.
00:52:05:47 – 00:52:43:26
Essa Hansen
So I’m like, no, what was that? What where am I influences? What was I thinking? Like, how did that how did I craft that? How did because my brain is so much in book two and my energy should be, you know, on the next thing. So I’m constantly switching gears, which is really demanding on top of everything else, so that that gear switching and getting my brain, even though it’s all in one world and it’s a continuous story that’s going it still feels kind of compartmentalized between book one and book two, I think, because when I spent so much time on in the nitty gritty, and then book two is a lot more in flux.
00:52:43:30 – 00:52:50:37
Essa Hansen
So they feel different in my brain when I’m thinking about one versus the other. So that’s been the hardest part.
00:52:50:42 – 00:53:05:09
Agent Palmer
So book one comes out, you know, fall 2020. Book two is slated for fall 2021. Can I presume that book three is fall 2022?
00:53:05:14 – 00:53:07:39
Essa Hansen
Yeah, they’re about a year out from me. Okay.
00:53:07:43 – 00:53:09:00
Agent Palmer
All right.
00:53:09:04 – 00:53:39:05
Essa Hansen
Which I think if you’re not in publishing, it might seem like a lot like a year apart. And I remember when I was a reader, a young reader, you know, it seemed like a long time to wait for the next book. You know, you’re not thinking of what the author has to do to create it, or even things like the book length, especially in sci fi and fantasy, like books can be really long, and it takes that much more time to create and to edit and to go back through.
00:53:39:10 – 00:53:51:33
Essa Hansen
So there’s definitely it’s like one year schedule for a long sci fi novel is tight. So hopefully the readers can wait. Is I’m working as hard as I can.
00:53:51:38 – 00:54:21:19
Agent Palmer
Is is there I obviously this trilogy is is I’m not going to say unto itself, right. Like, you know, but whatever project is after this trilogy, are there any lessons, you know, because you’re, you’re basically halfway through it right now. Are there any, like, stand out lessons? It’s like, oh, I, I know these two things to be true now that I had no idea before.
00:54:21:23 – 00:55:01:52
Essa Hansen
Oh, there’s tons of those, yeah, tons of new things. And I think I keep seeing that as my craft improves, I’m noticing new layers in, in the, in the prose and the structure in that. Like I’ll notice things that I just could not mentally see before. And I notice a parallel with critiquing as well, where I can sometimes see things in, a friend’s manuscript that I’m critiquing, like micro tension or a pacing thing, or a repetition thing or structure that I can’t see in my own work when I’m trying to edit it.
00:55:01:56 – 00:55:23:05
Essa Hansen
And now I’m like, leapfrogging that little bit where I’m starting to see that as higher level things in my own work. More and more. So it’s just sort of uncovering layers of like better and better craft and being having the perspective to see the problems and knowing how to fix them. The sometimes you can see the problem, but I just don’t know how to fix it, and maybe my editor will know how to fix it.
00:55:23:10 – 00:55:35:15
Essa Hansen
Sometimes you can see it and fix it, sometimes you can’t see it at all. So there’s like a whole range of, for every problem you could encounter. There’s a range of how you’re able to perceive and deal with it.
00:55:35:20 – 00:56:00:59
Agent Palmer
All right, I think I, I feel like I asked you this before, but I’m going to ask you again anyway. So you you you’ve you work day, you know, first breakfast is movies. Second breakfast is books. What’s elevenses for you? Like, is there another medium you want to tackle? Like are we or like is is the next one out video games.
00:56:00:59 – 00:56:01:54
Agent Palmer
Are you. Yeah.
00:56:01:55 – 00:56:32:37
Essa Hansen
What what I I’ve already put most of my hobbies aside, so I would hope to fill any free time with, you know, enjoyable things that aren’t me working on something. But in terms of, like what I would want to do, I think video games would be cool. There’s there’s so many art forms that I would like to, to play with or that I used to like, I used to do more digital art than I have in, in many, many years.
00:56:32:41 – 00:56:56:17
Essa Hansen
I used to play music and compose music. I haven’t done that in a long time, so maybe I’ll pick up hobbies back again when I figure out the the work life and the work work balance, I think I’ll start figuring out the work work balance and then we’ll go to work life. But hopefully introduce, you know, hobbies that are creative at the same time that aren’t work, is it?
00:56:56:22 – 00:57:25:21
Essa Hansen
I was discussing this with someone else, and it can be really healthy to have, you know, you’re creative work. That’s work. And then to have a creative hobby where you’re, you know, you’re not beholden to anybody else. You know, you don’t need to present it to people you don’t like. No one’s going to critique it where it’s just you creating for the joy of creating it, whatever that medium is and not, you know, needing to force it into a form.
00:57:25:21 – 00:57:28:10
Agent Palmer
But do you but you don’t have that anymore.
00:57:28:15 – 00:57:34:36
Essa Hansen
I don’t right now. You’re like I used to. Well, that was that was writing that.
00:57:34:36 – 00:57:37:30
Agent Palmer
Sure it was. But now. But now.
00:57:37:34 – 00:57:40:49
Essa Hansen
Now I’m writing for, for a readership.
00:57:40:54 – 00:57:44:48
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah. So now you’ve got, you’ve got that times to.
00:57:44:53 – 00:57:47:45
Essa Hansen
Now to work. And I have deadlines.
00:57:47:49 – 00:57:56:05
Agent Palmer
So you really do have work and work. And then life, I guess.
00:57:56:09 – 00:58:00:14
Essa Hansen
Yeah. I’ll figure it out there.
00:58:00:19 – 00:58:17:21
Agent Palmer
Is is there 1 or 2 kind of like writing tips you can give for anyone out there who who has an idea but has yet to take that next step.
00:58:17:26 – 00:58:38:23
Essa Hansen
So getting started is really difficult for a lot of people. And then after that, finishing something is really difficult. But I think if you have an idea and you’re interested in dabbling in writing, just get started. Just figure out what about it. It really excites you and follow that thread. That’s always how I go with new ideas that I have.
00:58:38:23 – 00:59:15:38
Essa Hansen
Or either when I’m stuck on a problem, I’ll figure out what’s exciting, or try and brainstorm until I find the thing that hooks me in, because I know that’ll be with the readers. Also going to go for it. But just getting started can be the first hurdle. And then in terms of other writing advice, I think finding and this took me a long time finding a group of people at similar stage as you and growing together and, you know, having people you can talk to who understand the process that you’re doing, no matter whether you’re pursuing publishing or not, but finding a group of people that can understand and then you can talk shop
00:59:15:38 – 00:59:19:58
Essa Hansen
with and and commiserate with, it’s really important.
00:59:20:02 – 00:59:28:46
Agent Palmer
I, I can’t, I cannot tell you how excited I am for a book to.
00:59:28:51 – 00:59:33:00
Essa Hansen
Yeah, I’m glad to hear that.
00:59:33:05 – 00:59:59:35
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And I, I haven’t, you know, I haven’t had a chance to like, you know, push the book that much because I’m a I’m a huge reader, and I’m, I’m so I, I hate to say snobbish, but I’m very selective about what I read. So, very rarely am I. I’ve read one bad book in the last decade.
00:59:59:40 – 01:00:25:48
Agent Palmer
So I’ve been very lucky, but I’m also very, I don’t know, specific. Like, I’m sticking to my lanes. Right. And some of that is because there are authors that I’m just reading their bibliographies of, and they’re prolific. And that’s what I’m doing. And you can I will clearly just add you to that list. And that will be, but it’s.
01:00:25:53 – 01:00:43:52
Essa Hansen
My I have a question for you. Sure. I remember you saying that you hadn’t really been reading sci fi for a long time. I had, and this this sounds like it was sort of one of, if not the first, one of the first science fiction novels and kind of got back into. So what was it like, you know, not reading this genre.
01:00:44:06 – 01:00:49:29
Essa Hansen
And then jumping right into when it’s fresh.
01:00:49:34 – 01:01:25:52
Agent Palmer
You know what? It’s, so about five years ago, 5 or 6 years ago. Oh, man. Seven, I don’t know, sometime early on in the, in the history of my blog, I did a like, I guess a time travel book. I reviewed a time travel book and the author’s, what it was coauthored. And one of the authors had a young adult sci fi series, and he sent me, the first two books, which I think there are only two.
01:01:25:57 – 01:01:49:07
Agent Palmer
And that was the last sci fi I had read until probably three years ago, when it just so happened that one of my local, not my local, but one of the nearby local state representatives had written a sci fi book. And I was like, well, I’m okay, okay, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m interested enough in the genre, but I’m not reading it.
01:01:49:12 – 01:02:13:39
Agent Palmer
And I read that and I was just like, this is amazing. This is great. And and so it’s not like I was completely in the dark. I wasn’t coming at it having like, oh, it’s been a decade, but it had been a while. And I think the most important thing is the amount of books in between those two young adult and that one stand off, and then that one stand off in yours was like 56, like there are.
01:02:13:41 – 01:03:02:59
Agent Palmer
All right. So, so time is one thing. But I mean, you know, for, for the, for the non reader, it’s, it’s movies. Right. If you only watch Star Wars when it comes out in theaters, how many other movies are you watching in between Star Wars films. Right, right. And and so it takes about 2 or 3 chapters personally to get back into how this stuff works, especially because when I look at everything I read in between, which is like, spy like cold War spy fiction and some other just kind of like fictiony things and then like, I’ve been on a big, like, NASA biography kick, so, like, the science kind of
01:03:02:59 – 01:03:26:49
Agent Palmer
jumps out at me first and it’s like, okay, all right. We have to learn things work differently here. And like, I’m glad like, you wrote it in a way that like the adjustment wasn’t a lot, but it was also like, okay, this isn’t we’re jumping into Saturn five and taking off for the moon. Like the physics works different, so there’s a bit of an adjustment there.
01:03:26:54 – 01:03:52:16
Agent Palmer
Just because I hadn’t been reading that right. But, once you get into the book, you’re into the book, right? Like, I yeah, I, I reread Jurassic Park recently, and while, you know, we were alive when they were cloning sheep decades ago. Right. So, like, cloning isn’t unfamiliar to us, but you don’t have to get far into Jurassic Park where you’re, like, willingly, like, okay, all right.
01:03:52:16 – 01:04:29:40
Agent Palmer
This is a world where dinosaurs are cloned, right? And the the I don’t know, the acceptance of disbelief for all of these things is basically equal. You have to give up some reality when you get into any book. You know, and, and I can say this, like without counter that goes for fiction and nonfiction. Right? Like, I’ve been reading a lot of NASA biographies.
01:04:29:45 – 01:04:57:36
Agent Palmer
The stories aren’t that different, right? The perspective is. So somewhere in my head is a better idea of what actually happened when I read three different astronauts tell the same story differently. Right? So, there is an expectation that. All right, every time I open the book, the cover of this book, I’m in a different universe. So that kind of helps a little bit.
01:04:57:36 – 01:05:22:19
Agent Palmer
But, you know, you never know, right? Like it was my I feel like I’m going to have a better expectation of what to expect come book two. Obviously. Just like if you wrote a fantasy novel next, I think I’d still have a general idea of this is how like, okay, you’re not going to bury me in detail, right?
01:05:22:19 – 01:05:43:54
Agent Palmer
Like that. Like you have a general idea, but you don’t know. So the first few chapters of any time you’re reading, an author for the first time. Yeah. Which is important. Not a first time author. Just any time you’re reading an author for the first time, it’s it’s kind of like a relationship. It’s the first time you sit down and have coffee with somebody.
01:05:43:54 – 01:06:09:30
Agent Palmer
It’s like, okay, what what what are you giving me? And then obviously, my disbelief or my, you know, acceptance of things is what I’m giving you to tell me the story. And it hopefully those things are equal. And once we get going with the story, like I’m, I’m accepting of whatever you’re giving me and you’re not, you know, toying with my emotions.
01:06:09:30 – 01:06:27:40
Essa Hansen
I but yeah, that’s a good way to put it. And also kind of how a lot of authors approach the craft of opening is opening is, you know, where you’re going to lose the most readers. So you have to be, especially in sci fi and fantasy, where like, you don’t want to dump information on them like you don’t want it.
01:06:27:45 – 01:06:50:29
Essa Hansen
Yeah. There’s just so many ways to stumble and you’re not going to please every reader. And that’s not the goal. But you know, the way that you paste information, the way that you present the characters, the way you sort of them in, like, this is my world, come with me. Read them along before, before you know that they’re in to the story, you know, 5100 pages in and you can kind of trust that the readers are with you.
01:06:50:44 – 01:07:15:56
Agent Palmer
I’ll say this. It was actually kind of like refreshing to read, because I have been reading the same authors over and over again. So like I’ve been reading through Dayton, so like I was and and and now I’m in, I finished the first trilogy of a series of nine books. Right? Like, I now know all the characters and I know the writer because I’ve been reading him for like 30 books.
01:07:15:56 – 01:07:39:49
Agent Palmer
Right. Douglas Copeland again, they’re all individual books. They’re not a series. But as an author, I have I understand who he is. And then biography. Like, I understand how the story’s going to unfold, or at least how it’s going to be portrayed. Like, I did this, you know, that guy did that thing. What? You know, I felt, you know, this is how, you know, things are going.
01:07:39:49 – 01:08:00:39
Agent Palmer
So it’s refreshing to pick up a book from a new author, right? Because you’re like, oh, okay. All right. Like, I’m, I’m I’m thinking I have to think differently. And I have to, you know, I’m learning again, as opposed to just being along for the for the ride. It was it was it was it was not only refreshing, it was enjoyable.
01:08:00:42 – 01:08:25:32
Agent Palmer
I like it it was such a good book. My my only detractor is not about you. And it was just like, I have a hard time reading digital copies. And like, for me, it’s a medium thing, right? Like, I feel like if I had a physical copy of the book, I would have done it in a weekend as opposed to a week, which isn’t a lot.
01:08:25:37 – 01:08:35:05
Agent Palmer
It’s it’s a lot. It’s a huge difference to me as like a reader. Right? But like to other people listening, they’re like, well, what’s the difference? It’s five.
01:08:35:11 – 01:08:36:59
Essa Hansen
Week. It’s fast. Yeah.
01:08:37:04 – 01:09:02:04
Agent Palmer
Yeah. So, no, it was no, I loved it, I loved it, and I, I listen, I mentioned in my review, like you state, I mean this is going to be the most political thing I say tonight. But you state some like universal truths or what I feel are universal truths within the characters in the books, like, you know, brave and stupid are sometimes the same thing.
01:09:02:16 – 01:09:11:02
Agent Palmer
And like, you know, revenge is the best revenge. Like, these are things I absolutely glommed on to because I loved them.
01:09:11:07 – 01:09:31:41
Essa Hansen
And that was something that was in the book or that I knew I wanted to put in the book from the very beginning. Like I wanted to give Caden life lessons. And he’s in this crew of adults who have, you know, years and years of experience that he doesn’t. So I wanted them to be able to give him life lessons, whether he is able to utilize those or not, he often is not able to process it.
01:09:31:46 – 01:09:46:06
Essa Hansen
But I wanted some of those life lessons and some of those big, you know, somewhat universal statements on the page that throughout the book, hoping that readers would attach to that, like it sounds like you have.
01:09:46:11 – 01:10:06:41
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah, I mean, my I think maybe my favorite line in the book is judge individuals is individual. There’s too much variety in the multiverse for broad statements to ever serve us well. And I feel like that’s, if that’s not universal to every facet of modern life, I don’t know what is.
01:10:06:46 – 01:10:34:08
Essa Hansen
And I loved exploring. Like I wanted a world where diversity was the norm and then thrilling this kid with very limited experience into not only a physically vast world, but a very diverse world, and trying to have him understand just the complexity of that was really fun and something I knew I wanted to, to try to approach as best I could in the story and in books two and three.
01:10:34:08 – 01:10:35:00
Essa Hansen
We’ll get into that more.
01:10:35:04 – 01:10:40:47
Agent Palmer
I can’t wait.
01:10:40:52 – 01:11:10:20
Agent Palmer
He. First of all, if you aren’t interested in Neha’s book by now, then how did you end up here? It’s it’s a great book. And now that you know more about it going in than I ever did, what are you waiting for? But I want to focus on the last two major points we covered about the creative process from personal experience, and these two tips are paramount to almost any project, especially creative endeavors.
01:11:10:25 – 01:11:36:26
Agent Palmer
The hardest part is starting, and then the hardest part is finishing. I talked a little bit about that personal experience in discussing the idea that perfection is the enemy of good. That is just one of the many hurdles we all have in getting started. But as my ongoing document of unfinished drafts and half started projects and ideas can attest, finishing is the next hardest thing.
01:11:36:39 – 01:12:09:28
Agent Palmer
In fact, if it weren’t for the obstacle that you have to start something to finish it, finishing might just be the hardest thing. What is it that we are afraid of? In either case, in starting, one of the biggest fears is that we may not finish. But what’s the fear about finishing or what’s keeping us from it? Primarily the desire or the inspiration to be motivated to start something in the first place would also be the inspiration and motivation to complete it.
01:12:09:33 – 01:12:42:32
Agent Palmer
But clearly this is not always the case for me. It is too many ideas. The single most common reason I have unfinished projects is that I had another idea, or in many cases, another few ideas and moved on. I’m not so much more afraid of not finishing something. My fears, as I have come to know them, are from not moving on or from not completing or backing the correct project.
01:12:42:37 – 01:13:07:35
Agent Palmer
Don’t let the fear of not finishing something keep you from starting something. And by extension, if you don’t finish it, it doesn’t mean that you won’t finish something. I do not suggest you go from half project to half project to half project, but as my many unfinished drafts can attest, you will complete some and you won’t complete some.
01:13:07:40 – 01:13:30:53
Agent Palmer
But the key there is that I do complete some. I’m running at best around 4 in 10, meaning that a little less than half of everything I start, I finish. I don’t see that as a bad thing. It’s just the way it is. And if you talk to my friends and you’ve heard from some of them during episodes 25 through 28, you know that I always have ideas.
01:13:30:53 – 01:13:59:28
Agent Palmer
So batting around 400, so to speak, is really good. But even if that went down, I would still be finishing some of them. And that’s very rewarding and worth your time, your passion and your effort. Because even if it doesn’t become a published novel or a major motion picture, or the next Grammy winning album, or even the next huge mainstream podcast, you will have the knowledge that you finished.
01:13:59:33 – 01:14:26:19
Agent Palmer
And that is something that no one can take away, and it can usually give you the confidence to start the next thing or go back and dust off something else and keep going. Just keep being creative. You don’t really know where you’re going to end up when you start most of the time. And well, that shouldn’t stop you from getting started or from crossing the finish line.
01:14:26:24 – 01:14:51:32
Agent Palmer
So here’s my question to you. What have you been putting off in starting, restarting, or finishing? And why not give it a go? Seriously, why not? Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 32. As a reminder, all links are available in the show notes. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays.
01:14:51:36 – 01:15:18:07
Agent Palmer
If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can tweet me at Agent Palmer, the show at The Palmer Files, and Nia at S.A. Hanson. That’s SSA h a n s e n. You can get Nia’s book Nophek Gloss at most major retailers. And don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and writings, including my spoiler free review of Nophk Gloss on Agent palmer.com email can be sent to the show at the Palmer Files at gmail.com.
01:15:18:07 – 01:15:28:43
Agent Palmer
If you have any feedback on this or any previous episode, or if there’s a topic or guest you’d like me to consider.
01:15:28:48 – 01:15:49:31
Unknown
You.
01:15:49:36 – 01:15:55:05
Unknown
Leave.
01:15:55:10 – 01:16:06:41
Unknown
Me.
01:16:06:46 – 01:16:08:46
Agent Palmer
All right. Well, you still get one final question.
01:16:08:59 – 01:16:19:31
Essa Hansen
Has reading no fed glass and getting into a big sci fi world? Does that make you want to read more science fiction? Like, where does it send you next?
01:16:19:36 – 01:16:48:15
Agent Palmer
Oh, that’s. I mean, I want more of this world. I it does make me feel like. All right, so this question gets answered by a couple things. Right. So I have been doing a great purge. I’ve been trying to get rid of things. I’ve been a, a packrat for way too long of everything you can imagine.
01:16:48:15 – 01:17:10:02
Agent Palmer
Right. Like, I have reports I wrote in sixth grade. I have, books that I will never touch again. And then I have books where I’m like, do I need to have this? I’ve got magazines. I’ve got, every newspaper from when I was on campus and wrote in them. Right. Like things that I could easily just scan a copy and move along.
01:17:10:02 – 01:17:38:16
Agent Palmer
Right. To. So, so that that adds to the fact that I’m looking at reading and enjoying sci fi because of you. And I go, I’ve got some Arthur C Clarke and some Asimov on my shelf. And I haven’t read any of that stuff since I was like in decades. I was literally in middle like early high school.
01:17:38:16 – 01:18:03:59
Agent Palmer
The last time I picked up those kind of sci fi books. And when you add the purge of like, what I’m keeping and what I’m not and like, look it it’s not completely bad. Like I some books I am upgrading from paperback to hardcover because I’m like, that’s a book I want to keep forever. But it does kind of put it in there where it’s like, I think I may have to add some more of those.
01:18:04:04 – 01:18:28:21
Agent Palmer
And look, they’re not all classics, right? I, I know Art Clarke and Asimov are classic authors. Not all of the books I have are like the classics, but I may have to start revisiting some of these, because, it was fun to go back to that world. And I was, you know, that was. It was 5050, right?
01:18:28:22 – 01:18:50:22
Agent Palmer
It was a coin flip, like when I was in fifth and sixth grade. As an early reader, it was Tolkien, Clarke and Asimov. Right. And and somehow I ended up going more towards fantasy and left the sci fi away. But if you go back to where it all started, it was a coin flip, like it could have gone either way.
01:18:50:22 – 01:19:18:34
Agent Palmer
And so the fact that I’ve strayed so far and, you know, towards the end of the episode, I explained, like, these are the last few sci fi books I’ve read, period. It’s weird that it took, you know, those, those circumstances to get me back into it. I think if nothing else, this is like the the bell ringing, like, okay, just don’t forget about sci fi.
01:19:18:34 – 01:19:26:31
Agent Palmer
Like, you have all these other things. You can throw a sci fi book in a little bit more than once a year, right?
01:19:26:31 – 01:19:30:31
Essa Hansen
You’re reading so eclectic. Be like, here’s another thing you can add in.
01:19:30:35 – 01:19:56:38
Agent Palmer
Yeah. So I yes, I feel like it’s, the best way to describe it is like, it’s a, it’s a smell. Right. Like you walk into a like for me, it’s, the smell of, like, a cigar, like I, I’m old enough that, like, okay, there are two I. And I can’t name them. I’m not like, a cigar aficionado.
01:19:56:38 – 01:20:18:03
Agent Palmer
Right? But, like, if I smell second hand cigar smoke, there are two different kinds I distinctly remember. One takes me to college football games when they were still smoking there, and the other takes me with my uncle Don to like baseball games. Right. And it’s that smell that sends me back. And no matter where I am, when I smell that smell, it’s like, that’s what I think of.
01:20:18:07 – 01:20:25:20
Agent Palmer
And your book was kind of like, oh, no, like, I liked this. Like, that’s the thing that I like.
01:20:25:24 – 01:20:30:58
Essa Hansen
So what I actually interesting. Well I’m glad.
01:20:31:02 – 01:20:57:25
Agent Palmer
No, I mean, yeah, it’s I, I, look, I also look forward to the fact that Dayton. I now have less books to read for reading through all of the Dayton things than I did. Like like I’m past halfway with that, and Douglas Copeland, who I kind of added to the rotation a little bit quick, more quickly.
01:20:57:30 – 01:21:16:39
Agent Palmer
I’m about halfway with his books as well, so the idea of, oh, I know what I’m going to read. It’s what do I fill in? Because I don’t like, you know, because I like to keep my books eclectic. It’s going to be like, it’s not going to be as easy. It’s not to be like, oh, okay, it’s time for another Dayton.
01:21:16:48 – 01:21:34:08
Agent Palmer
Like, oh, no, like I’m done with those. So it’s good to kind of like, all right, well, I can stretch this out a little bit more if it’s time to get sci fi back into the into the fray. So mission accomplished. Thanks for, you know.
01:21:34:13 – 01:21:36:12
Essa Hansen
Pushing you.
01:21:36:17 – 01:21:37:15
Agent Palmer
Throwing me back.
01:21:37:20 – 01:21:39:12
Essa Hansen
Or reminding you. Yeah.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).