Episode 163 features the return of one of my best friends Jason Zapata.
He’s back to tackle some of Proust’s Questionnaire, plus ch-ch-ch-changes, responsible technology usage, virtues, authors, unfinished projects and much much more.
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
What is the Proust Questionnaire?
Friendship Episode I: Jason Zapata
Other Links
These are the Bobs I like, I like, These are the Bobs I like. (Top 10 Real Bobs)
The Beauty of the Bay is captured in Michener’s Chesapeake
Special Guest Executive Producer: Bill Sweeney
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:05 – 00:00:27:28
Agent Palmer
Previously on agent Palmer dot com. These are the bobs I like I like. These are the bobs I like. The beauty of the bay is captured in Michener’s Chesapeake. And since last episode have you played any games tabletop card, video or otherwise? This is The Palmer Files episode 163. With the return of one of my best friends, Jason Zapata, he’s back to tackle some of Proust Questionnaire plus two to changes, responsible technology, usage, virtues, authors, unfinished projects, and much, much more.
00:00:27:37 – 00:00:30:59
Agent Palmer
Are you ready? Let’s do the show.
00:00:31:04 – 00:00:55:57
Jason Zapata
It’s the flaws that you can relate to and also at times admire in people. Looking back on it, I look back on that kind of fondly. It’s like, well, he was he was willing to kind of, you know, take a couple more chances. A good friend is a good psychiatrist, engage in meaningful things with someone because that’s the whole human experience.
00:00:55:57 – 00:01:10:06
Jason Zapata
Right? And it’s it’s a shared experience. I feel like I’m being attacked in this podcast about unfinished projects. You’re you’re kind of fighting for my creative soul, which I always appreciate that fact.
00:01:10:11 – 00:01:29:16
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files. I’m your host, Jason Stershic, also known as Agent Palmer, and on this 163rd episode is my friend Jason Zapata. Zapata. Like Chris Hughes, Chris Maier and Bill Sweeney, is back after a while, having not appeared on the show himself since 113, with the continuation of a conversation from long ago. But what is this?
00:01:29:27 – 00:01:55:33
Agent Palmer
What has he also returned for? This is a series of episodes that has almost run its course over the last few months, where my friends, specifically those from the friendship episodes, return to the show and ask me a select few questions from Proust’s questionnaire. Check out episodes 152, 155, and 159 for the previous questionnaire episodes. There are 17 questions Zapata is going forth, so he gets to choose from what remains.
00:01:55:39 – 00:02:14:51
Agent Palmer
Chris, Chris and Bill only use three each, so there’s plenty still to choose from. I have ideas, but I’m still not sure what happens with the remainder of the questions at this time. But the idea is to finish the questionnaire and have asked and answered all of the questions at some point. A link to the questionnaire Wikipedia entry is in the show notes.
00:02:14:51 – 00:02:36:19
Agent Palmer
If you would like a history lesson, I won’t spoil which questions are part of asks, but know that we discuss changes virtues. Authors revisit a friendship discussion, talk about unfinished projects, and well, all of that and much, much more is coming your way shortly. But first, remember that if you want to discuss the episode as you listen or afterward, you can find all related ways to contact Zapata and myself.
00:02:36:19 – 00:02:54:09
Agent Palmer
In the show notes. You can see all of his work at Jason zapata.com. And don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files at gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get into it.
00:02:54:14 – 00:03:01:03
Agent Palmer
It feels like I don’t need reasons to record with you. I feel like every conversation we have could just be a podcast.
00:03:01:08 – 00:03:06:58
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Where we, we usually have very elaborate discussions on things. Fun discussions. Passionate, yes.
00:03:06:58 – 00:03:09:49
Agent Palmer
But because if you’re not going to be passionate about it, why bother?
00:03:09:49 – 00:03:12:03
Jason Zapata
Yeah, it’s a small talk. Then. That’s boring.
00:03:12:08 – 00:03:13:25
Agent Palmer
Yeah. No one likes small talk.
00:03:13:25 – 00:03:14:00
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:03:14:05 – 00:03:16:58
Agent Palmer
That’s what you do to pass the time at work functions.
00:03:17:03 – 00:03:18:34
Jason Zapata
And we’re not passing the time. We’re enjoying it.
00:03:18:36 – 00:03:27:07
Agent Palmer
We are, we are. And you, you’ve been on the show quite a bit. You were on because you work too much. You still do.
00:03:27:12 – 00:03:27:32
Jason Zapata
Yep.
00:03:27:32 – 00:03:38:49
Agent Palmer
You were on because you were my friend. You still are. You were on because we talked about adaptations. We didn’t like to consume things. We are and we continue to.
00:03:38:54 – 00:03:40:18
Jason Zapata
As consumers do and.
00:03:40:18 – 00:04:06:58
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah. And, you know, now you’re back for the first questionnaire. But before we get there, right. I’ve been doing this in reverse order and so everybody, you know, knows that there have been a lot of changes in the last little bit, not just the new studio that we’re sitting in. Right. So, you’ve known me the longest I have.
00:04:06:58 – 00:04:08:09
Jason Zapata
I have that distinction.
00:04:08:14 – 00:04:21:04
Agent Palmer
And, you’ve seen more changes than anyone else, not just the recent ones, just all of them. You were at the wedding. I was, and you visited in the first couple weeks to see our child.
00:04:21:04 – 00:04:24:33
Jason Zapata
I would hope that be the expectation. Of course.
00:04:24:38 – 00:04:43:56
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean, and you and I appreciate you weren’t feeling well. You didn’t come earlier and that, you know, with a newborn, you never you never know. Right. And you’re always just just kind of trying to figure it out. But it feels like a good place. I mean, since the last time you were on, you have purchased a home.
00:04:44:01 – 00:04:45:47
Jason Zapata
I am a homeowner now, so. Yeah.
00:04:45:47 – 00:04:47:37
Agent Palmer
Big things for you as well.
00:04:47:42 – 00:04:48:25
Jason Zapata
Yeah, I’m very big.
00:04:48:38 – 00:04:52:50
Agent Palmer
And, you you should have moved next door.
00:04:52:55 – 00:04:57:28
Jason Zapata
Oh, yeah. The market as it was. Yeah. Put a crimp and, in those plans.
00:04:57:28 – 00:04:58:35
Agent Palmer
But I would’ve been great.
00:04:58:46 – 00:05:02:15
Jason Zapata
20 minutes in bad. It’s not. It’s doable.
00:05:02:20 – 00:05:04:48
Agent Palmer
You just like being further away.
00:05:04:53 – 00:05:06:05
Jason Zapata
Gives you a little peace when I need it.
00:05:06:05 – 00:05:20:43
Agent Palmer
No, you. Look, there have been times when you have hermitage, and the further you are away, the harder it is for me to make sure you don’t ever do that again.
00:05:20:47 – 00:05:44:35
Jason Zapata
Well, yeah, in my in my defense, that was the post Philly jobless crash of 2008. Yes. So things things are much changed since then and I don’t have a, you know, a reason to kind of go into full, full blown hermit mode right now. The exact opposite is true. I can’t do that right now because of all the things that are happening.
00:05:44:35 – 00:06:02:52
Jason Zapata
The good things, you know, can’t do that. When I have my my nephew out and about in the world and, you know, the, the, evolving kind of, you know, friendships, I have both of, you know, outside and in work too, now. So, no, there’s there’s reasons to be present. And, that’s a great thing.
00:06:02:52 – 00:06:10:49
Agent Palmer
And that’s a thing that, you and I, I’ve never had a problem with. Oh. Well, until. Well.
00:06:10:54 – 00:06:12:06
Jason Zapata
Well, well.
00:06:12:08 – 00:06:13:31
Agent Palmer
Well.
00:06:13:36 – 00:06:14:41
Jason Zapata
Mr. Cantor, you.
00:06:14:44 – 00:06:15:02
Agent Palmer
Well.
00:06:15:02 – 00:06:16:30
Jason Zapata
You well, well, well, my mean.
00:06:16:44 – 00:06:40:41
Agent Palmer
I think, yeah, your ability to, berate, younger generations and then partake in their bad habits of never putting your phone down, does, is hilarious to me because I feel like, well, he should be like an old man like me. That’s like, I don’t need my phone all the time.
00:06:40:56 – 00:06:43:58
Jason Zapata
I love, like, the reason why.
00:06:44:03 – 00:06:44:46
Agent Palmer
And you wish.
00:06:44:48 – 00:06:45:08
Jason Zapata
You use.
00:06:45:08 – 00:07:03:35
Agent Palmer
It. It’s very important that everybody listening know he was so resistant to this phone. Mary. In fact, I think we were generations into, like, iPhones and androids. And before you even picked up your first smartphone generations.
00:07:03:39 – 00:07:04:14
Jason Zapata
00:07:04:18 – 00:07:05:20
Agent Palmer
And now he can’t put it.
00:07:05:20 – 00:07:25:43
Jason Zapata
Down in my defense is not used for TikTok or like really low content, low info social media. Doomscrolling I’m genuinely curious about things. So you and I, you and I talk about something and it’ll be either something we either forgot about or something that we want to, you.
00:07:25:48 – 00:07:27:19
Agent Palmer
Know, kind of remember.
00:07:27:19 – 00:07:46:11
Jason Zapata
Yeah, you yell at me because you’re like, you should just let your brain figure, remember it, remember it. I don’t have patience for that. Like, if it’s something that I feel it’s relevant or it’s a point I want to make, I want to know. So I’ll look it up. And that’s where you berate me on. But I think this belongs you’re using it constructively that way.
00:07:46:11 – 00:07:47:44
Jason Zapata
I don’t have a problem with it.
00:07:47:49 – 00:07:57:15
Agent Palmer
No, I you’re never going to get me to come around on that because I, we haven’t grown up in the pre smartphone era. We were okay with it that.
00:07:57:19 – 00:08:02:14
Jason Zapata
Well we didn’t have the option. We are okay with it because there wasn’t there wasn’t an option to know. There were still.
00:08:02:14 – 00:08:12:28
Agent Palmer
Technically the internet. We could have waited ten minutes instead of however long it would take to look it up on like a book. But, I don’t know.
00:08:12:28 – 00:08:27:02
Jason Zapata
I just again, it’s it is like anything else. Tools can be abused. So there’s their intended purpose and then there’s the, the abuses of that purpose. And you know, you have to use it responsibly, man. That’s that’s the whole thing. Yeah.
00:08:27:07 – 00:08:37:31
Agent Palmer
I guess the guy who’s got a Diablo style weaponry in his house should be the one talking about responsible tool usage.
00:08:37:31 – 00:08:39:01
Jason Zapata
This is true. This is true.
00:08:39:06 – 00:08:43:43
Agent Palmer
I mean, you know, you probably have more than you could carry in Diablo two.
00:08:43:54 – 00:08:50:11
Jason Zapata
You can quite be, decent inventory. So I’m just at the cusp. I would say that I’m pretty almost maxed. Load it.
00:08:50:11 – 00:08:54:56
Agent Palmer
Out. Yeah. With the exception that in in the real world, like you’d never be able to. No.
00:08:55:01 – 00:08:55:48
Jason Zapata
No, no. Yeah.
00:08:56:00 – 00:09:05:11
Agent Palmer
I helped your move. And I feel like anybody who was helping you move, who was carrying the long pole, the swords, the. It’s just like.
00:09:05:11 – 00:09:07:01
Jason Zapata
Spear spears.
00:09:07:06 – 00:09:08:16
Agent Palmer
Is moving in next.
00:09:08:16 – 00:09:16:38
Jason Zapata
To. Well, you know, the neighbors have been very cool up in science, and I have some very nice neighbors.
00:09:16:43 – 00:09:21:31
Agent Palmer
It now, now. But when you put your forge in the garage, We’ll see.
00:09:21:32 – 00:09:27:34
Jason Zapata
They may get annoyed with the with the constant clang of things, but that’s down the road. That’s a down the road problem for them in for me.
00:09:27:41 – 00:09:31:29
Agent Palmer
Okay. All right. Down the road problem for you. Let’s talk about now.
00:09:31:40 – 00:09:33:57
Jason Zapata
All right. Here, the present day present.
00:09:33:57 – 00:09:42:52
Agent Palmer
Yes. I invited you on. You did to do the Proust Questionnaire or, you know, a remainder of them.
00:09:42:56 – 00:09:45:37
Jason Zapata
And so you saved the best for last. And I understand that.
00:09:45:42 – 00:09:50:02
Agent Palmer
What is the first question? Let’s just get right into it.
00:09:50:17 – 00:09:56:51
Jason Zapata
My first question that I would ask to you, yes, would be what do you consider your favorite virtue?
00:09:56:56 – 00:10:17:33
Agent Palmer
Oh, boy. You know, I think this is one of those ones where, I immediately go blank on what’s a virtue? The only virtue I know, hands down, is my favorite is probably the one I don’t have.
00:10:17:42 – 00:10:18:24
Jason Zapata
Okay.
00:10:18:29 – 00:10:35:11
Agent Palmer
Because everyone tells me I don’t have it. And age is not helped somehow. Like I always thought. You get older, you slow down. Maybe you get a little bit of patience. I still don’t really have it.
00:10:35:16 – 00:10:43:48
Jason Zapata
Do you know, I. It’s funny though, that that is a very true statement that that that a lot of people grow older and develop it over time.
00:10:44:01 – 00:10:45:45
Agent Palmer
I always thought I would, but I it’s.
00:10:45:45 – 00:11:09:22
Jason Zapata
I think it’s a bell curve though, because in reality. Right. You get that that nuanced look at things, you get experience, you get that like spiritual mental scar tissue going and you develop patience. But the thing that happens as you start to get older and older, you lose that, that mindset. And then you don’t have patience for the things that annoy you and the things that should be working.
00:11:09:22 – 00:11:15:26
Jason Zapata
Right. So I don’t fault you there. I do think that, that that particular virtue has occurred.
00:11:15:27 – 00:11:37:06
Agent Palmer
I see, I and I still think that’s the one that is. No, I want to say most important, I know things take time. You know, I talk about my process a lot. So people know, like the podcast, like we, I, we record this and then I kind of edit it and then I put it on a shelf for a little bit, and I revisit it before it gets released.
00:11:37:11 – 00:11:59:49
Agent Palmer
And that time that let it cook, that patience to leave it be for a bit. Same with writing. I’ll write a post, put it away, let it be. There’s a patience to process in that. I’ve finished a part of it, but it’s not done. And I don’t have an impatience where it’s like, I have to. I have to finish this now.
00:11:59:54 – 00:12:26:00
Agent Palmer
I know there’s something to be gained from perspective and that that space that we gave, that thing that we wrote yesterday. Maybe I’ll pick it up in a week and see what it’s like. But for the rest of everything, you know, I just feel like I’ve not gained enough of that virtue to be like, yeah, okay, this is fine.
00:12:26:00 – 00:12:47:35
Agent Palmer
I can wait a little bit. And look, you were on to talk about that. You work too much. And I feel like even though I don’t have a full time, full time job, I probably work too much too. And there’s an impatience with some of that where it’s like, I’m just always on to the next thing.
00:12:47:48 – 00:13:13:27
Agent Palmer
And I know that there are other issues there. But I don’t know, I just, I feel like that might be my favorite because it’s the one I still aspire to have to really, like, sink my teeth into and have. And I don’t know, honestly. Look, I’ve said it before, I’ll probably say it. I’ll say it now and then.
00:13:13:27 – 00:13:25:30
Agent Palmer
Hopefully I won’t have to say it again because it will be understood for this episode. Like all of these questions potentially have a different answer before being a parent or even before being married.
00:13:25:30 – 00:13:26:14
Jason Zapata
Oh yeah.
00:13:26:18 – 00:13:38:23
Agent Palmer
But I don’t know that being a father has a like I think it it does turn on some things that are innate within humanity or humans or whatever.
00:13:38:36 – 00:13:41:23
Jason Zapata
But do you think it activates certain instincts?
00:13:41:23 – 00:14:01:33
Agent Palmer
Sure. But I still am not like I’m I’m ready for I’m ready to have a conversation with the kid. Like, the cows are cute, but let’s talk, kid. Let’s let’s have a cow. You know, like, I’m ready for that. I’m ready for. Let’s go for a walk together. Not me pushing you in the store like I’m ready for.
00:14:01:33 – 00:14:22:21
Agent Palmer
Let’s both jump in the car. You can sit next to me, navigate, and we’ll go to Uncle Z’s and, mess with him on work day. Right. Like I’m ready for the adventure. And that, again, is one of those things where, like, everybody’s like, oh, just you savor these moments like, no, I want him to talk clearly. I’m like, that’s.
00:14:22:35 – 00:14:37:34
Agent Palmer
And you know what? It’s not a shock to the guy sitting across from me. We are talkers. So of course, like we look at him and like, yeah, you’re cute, but, like, when do we get to talk? Like, when do we get to think, get know what’s going on in your head? Yeah. Like when do we get those things?
00:14:37:49 – 00:15:05:23
Agent Palmer
So even though I might have a little bit more patience when I’m holding a cranky baby, there’s only so much that means otherwise. I’m like, all right, so when do we. When when do you get to eat, like, real food with us? When do we get to talk? There’s still a lot of impatience. So that virtue, for many reasons, is still like, oh, that’s the one I kind of want.
00:15:05:32 – 00:15:09:05
Agent Palmer
Oh, that’s the one I need to grab. So for you.
00:15:09:10 – 00:15:09:48
Jason Zapata
00:15:09:53 – 00:15:11:55
Agent Palmer
What is your favorite virtue I.
00:15:11:55 – 00:15:29:24
Jason Zapata
Think kind of dovetails with yours. And I think it is also very much in, in age. Dependent virtue is resiliency. I think that being able to endure hardship, being able to push through the hard times, is an essential skill to have.
00:15:29:24 – 00:15:36:37
Agent Palmer
But you’ve done I mean, you talked about going hermit, you’ve been resilient. You’ve come back from that stuff.
00:15:36:39 – 00:15:58:44
Jason Zapata
Well, yeah. But I think that and just to kind of, you know, you know, your particular example being a parent, being willing to stay up those long nights with a kid, you know, bouncing on your knee, trying to calm them down from from crying, you know, being willing to, to grind through a weekend and try to work through a project, just that, that mental fortitude that you have to have to be successful.
00:15:58:44 – 00:16:16:09
Jason Zapata
And, you know, even if it’s a simple endeavor of just getting through a night with a screaming baby to trying to figure out, hire and develop some type of plan or process for your company or for your job. I mean, it’s it’s the same thing. You have to have that, tenacity, that, that mental toughness to try to get through that.
00:16:16:09 – 00:16:18:12
Jason Zapata
So it’s resiliency for me.
00:16:18:16 – 00:16:47:05
Agent Palmer
Do you find that you are resilient in different ways now? Like obviously we’re both on the other side of 40. So we, we go for runs and you don’t bounce back like we used to do, right? But but I think that to play devil’s advocate, when you have problems with work, probably don’t hit you as hard.
00:16:47:10 – 00:17:12:19
Agent Palmer
You know, when you have, a writing problem. God, he needs to, listener. He needs to get back to writing. But when you have writing problems, are they nearly as insurmountable as they once were? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, are there other places where. Yeah, that’s probably the gold standard of like bouncing back. But, you know, physically we aren’t doing it as well anymore.
00:17:12:19 – 00:17:16:17
Agent Palmer
But mentally we’re probably we got to be going the other direction.
00:17:16:17 – 00:17:32:52
Jason Zapata
That gets developed. That’s the funny thing. So like I said, it’s like a bell curve where you know you’re suffering more on one end of it, but you’re improving on the other. Yeah. So it’s just where I’m just on the different side of that now. So yeah, I absolutely.
00:17:32:52 – 00:17:45:59
Agent Palmer
Agree. Okay. By the way, I couldn’t name for you another like virtue. Like I just they’re they’re gone and it’s, it’s one of the things. But by not doing research for any of these you just like.
00:17:46:03 – 00:17:58:03
Jason Zapata
I know there’s there’s no like there’s classic virtues. But I mean, I think in all in all, like, it’s basic is any traveler while is valor would be one. Yeah. Courage. You know.
00:17:58:08 – 00:17:59:58
Agent Palmer
All the things the Wizard of Oz is that.
00:17:59:58 – 00:18:02:35
Jason Zapata
What is that one? Yeah, possibly, I don’t know.
00:18:02:40 – 00:18:14:35
Agent Palmer
A courage, yeah, a brain, a heart and a home. Well, a home maybe not so much, but you know, it’s probably is insurmountable. Is, patience true?
00:18:14:37 – 00:18:15:24
Jason Zapata
Very true.
00:18:15:29 – 00:18:20:23
Agent Palmer
All right, so what is the second question that you have for me?
00:18:20:28 – 00:18:22:03
Jason Zapata
Well, this will be a softball.
00:18:22:10 – 00:18:23:13
Agent Palmer
A softball, okay.
00:18:23:13 – 00:18:28:19
Jason Zapata
It’s the softness of softball. So your favorite prose authors.
00:18:28:24 – 00:19:11:28
Agent Palmer
Oh, favorite prose authors? Okay, so prose. I mean, there are some easy, like, hits, right? I immediately go to, you know, Copeland has been, a recent and more recent than than some of the others. Dayton, I mean, there’s a part of me that, you know, tokens, probably second tier for me. These days. Just because I’m not reading that much fantasy, I, I love Klosterman, but the it’s more essays, so it’s not prose.
00:19:11:28 – 00:19:13:13
Agent Palmer
So Klosterman doesn’t count because.
00:19:13:21 – 00:19:15:02
Jason Zapata
It’s omitting something. That’s a weird one.
00:19:15:02 – 00:19:36:24
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean, I have so, you know, Dayton, Copeland and Barker, I think, has to be Barker. I mean, I’m, I’m reading a barker now, but, like, I will, you know, it came up when, you know, I was talking to Bill in a recent podcast or after a recent podcast, we were talking about the great in Secret show.
00:19:36:24 – 00:19:58:44
Agent Palmer
And, you know, some of the other stuff and I’ve talked about Galileo and Cold Hard Case. I think I’ve talked about most of the like, more fantasy driven Clive Barker’s. And I think my current read, magica is going to be up there with the rest of them. And I there’s something about it that just is what good prose does.
00:19:58:44 – 00:20:27:02
Agent Palmer
It takes you away. Right? And, you know, Dayton put you in a world, Barker takes you away. And Copeland really makes you think. And I think that they all do something different. And I think that the question being authors plural is very helpful. I don’t know, I’d be able to give you a singular answer.
00:20:27:07 – 00:20:28:32
Jason Zapata
No, I did.
00:20:28:37 – 00:20:30:35
Agent Palmer
I just I just don’t know, like, even if that was the.
00:20:30:35 – 00:20:32:40
Jason Zapata
Question, if you had to, to force you to pick, I.
00:20:32:47 – 00:20:33:29
Agent Palmer
Don’t know.
00:20:33:41 – 00:20:35:34
Jason Zapata
I don’t think anyone can. That’s too.
00:20:35:34 – 00:21:03:57
Agent Palmer
Hard. But I also think that it’s important to have many, or at least a few that you either return to or really enjoy or what have you. And I know this isn’t for everybody because I know I’m doing this musically as I’m listening to things, and listening to things in chronological order. And I’m reading all the Copeland’s in chronological order, and I read most of the Klosterman that way.
00:21:03:57 – 00:21:23:59
Agent Palmer
I read all of the dates that way, and the Barkers I read a little bit out of order, but now I’m going back and trying to read it through. And I think one of the reasons I the only reason I bring that up is because it’s interesting to see how these authors have grown from book to book to book, because they very much do.
00:21:24:03 – 00:21:36:14
Agent Palmer
And they’re very it’s subtle differences. It’s kind of like being your friend and like turning around and going like, oh, wait, we’re both over 40 now. Like Holy crap, how did that happen? It feels like.
00:21:36:15 – 00:21:37:18
Jason Zapata
When you miss it, you know.
00:21:37:18 – 00:21:49:18
Agent Palmer
And, and and so there are these things that feel the same when you’re reading these books by these authors over and over again. But there are things that are different every time.
00:21:49:23 – 00:21:49:54
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:21:49:59 – 00:22:16:11
Agent Palmer
And just going through that bibliography or for music that discography and knowing how things have evolved, I think it’s super important, especially if you want to be an artist, because it’ll show you that you are also evolved, like you just can’t help it from one thing to the next. You evolve. And so that’s it. I feel like I’m missing some people.
00:22:16:16 – 00:22:47:01
Agent Palmer
There are always going to be the yeah, there are always going to be like the one off books as well, but I feel like favorite. If we’re going to do that, it would include multiple enjoyments of different things. And I think that’s it. I mean, honestly, now that I’ve talked myself into it, I think I might be able to say Copeland is my favorite period if I had to choose one, because he plays with the form more than any of the others.
00:22:47:06 – 00:23:29:35
Agent Palmer
He takes chances. He does some crazy stuff. That just not other. He he’s one of the few he and Klosterman, but Copeland does it in a different level. They have fun with footnotes, even in a novel. It doesn’t have to be. When they write nonfiction, they just have fun with footnotes. There’s a section of prose within, more nonfiction, each type book where it goes on a rant that he knows is a rant, and the bottom half of the page is him bringing the font down a point into a point where you just can’t read it anymore.
00:23:29:40 – 00:23:52:36
Agent Palmer
Like he wrote it. He wrote out the whole rant, but just it gets harder and harder until you can’t read it. But you know, there’s more. And I just like the idea that somebody in publishing, even then, I don’t know when that book was that was probably in the last 20 or 20 years maybe. It’s just I like that somebody’s still having fun with the form.
00:23:52:41 – 00:24:12:46
Agent Palmer
It’s one of the reasons that occasionally I’ll be like, hey, Jay, you need to read this book because it it’s different. And I know you and I are still working behind the scenes slowly on your first novel, and I know what some of the problems were with it. We talked about it, and so sometimes I’ll throw you a book that’s just a little bit different.
00:24:12:47 – 00:24:37:58
Agent Palmer
Yeah, right. Because it’s like, oh, maybe this will work for us. And so because Copeland changes and he does these different things and he tries the I don’t know if he’s tried them on purpose or if he’s just try them for whatever. But that’s that’s my favorite right now. But the other ones I mean, they’re all important to me and how I view the written word.
00:24:38:03 – 00:24:56:52
Agent Palmer
You know, maybe, maybe one day you’ll be one of my answers. But as it’s only been poetry that’s published so far, and I don’t know what version of the manuscript of that novel will make publishing, I don’t know.
00:24:56:57 – 00:24:58:16
Jason Zapata
Like bring up.
00:24:58:21 – 00:25:02:50
Agent Palmer
So look, I, I but I do enjoy writing like you’re, you know.
00:25:02:50 – 00:25:04:03
Jason Zapata
Oh thank you. Oh, that’s kind of you.
00:25:04:08 – 00:25:13:56
Agent Palmer
That’s new that, you know, that’s a whole different, different conversation. That’s a different podcast. So who are your favorite pros?
00:25:14:01 – 00:25:34:35
Jason Zapata
I would definitely say Jim Butcher with the Dresden Files series. Going back to, like, old school, like, you know, high school, college reading and rice. Oh, yeah. The material. Yeah, I write the heck out of that, you know, do the, the author I’ve used to you with the most, Terry Brooks. Yeah. I got you on board the Brooks train there.
00:25:34:35 – 00:25:40:00
Agent Palmer
Yeah, he would he would be in that second tier for me. We’re talking of like, yeah, like, this is this fun?
00:25:40:09 – 00:26:14:10
Jason Zapata
And you had same thing with you in terms of like cross-pollinate, harmonization. Then that the spy novels. So it’s, it’s, it’s a, that goes hand in hand. Dayton. So, I would say what I love about Jim Butcher in The Dresden Files is his ability to, because it’s based in urban fantasy. Him taking all that mythological beings and very much in the same kind of vein and Neil Gaiman does, and just fleshing them out, making them accessible, making them realistic in a, in a crazy way.
00:26:14:12 – 00:26:17:04
Jason Zapata
Again, again. It’s all fantasy. It’s it’s it’s not.
00:26:17:04 – 00:26:34:20
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but it’s all fantasy. But then like you mentioned butcher in the same breath as Brooks, and Brooks did the same thing where like, his fantasy world is still based in a reality. Yeah. Like what, one of those books ends up in the San Francisco post-apocalypse.
00:26:34:20 – 00:26:34:33
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:26:34:44 – 00:26:46:45
Agent Palmer
You know, but it’s still spoilers. Well, but there’s still a grounded nature to it, right? We’re not talking about going out in space. You know, we’re not talking about,
00:26:46:50 – 00:27:09:51
Jason Zapata
There’s there’s rules to the to the world. Yes. Even though you have these powerful beings, you know, populating it, they’re still they’re governed by physics. They’re governed by rules. Yes, we can understand. So I like how he manages that careful balance to it, because if you go too much in one direction, it’s either you’re kind of game war entities, grounded science fiction versus fantasy.
00:27:10:00 – 00:27:33:35
Jason Zapata
If you go too far in the other end, it’s not relatable at all. So I think he does a very good job with that. The worldbuilding, the characterization, the, the, character development, his cast goes through over the course of, I think he’s up to like, something like double double digits for his, his main series. And I’ve, I have and as you’ve seen, the the paperback collection on the top shelf of my library.
00:27:33:35 – 00:27:57:21
Agent Palmer
Well, we’ve talked about collections. I mean, like this, this dovetails into, like. All right, so I have a complete Dayton collection. Yeah. You and I have similar Brooks collections. There are some that are missing from both of ours. I have a mostly complete Copeland, collection. I have a complete Klosterman collection, and I have a mostly complete Barker collection.
00:27:57:36 – 00:27:59:42
Agent Palmer
And meanwhile, you and I are talking about, like.
00:27:59:47 – 00:28:00:35
Jason Zapata
Do we upgrade?
00:28:00:37 – 00:28:01:40
Agent Palmer
Do we upgrade.
00:28:01:40 – 00:28:02:10
Jason Zapata
Updated?
00:28:02:11 – 00:28:03:28
Agent Palmer
Like, do we go.
00:28:03:29 – 00:28:04:30
Jason Zapata
Our cover editions?
00:28:04:30 – 00:28:18:47
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And everybody’s coming out with new things and it’s like, do you want to try and get track down first editions or just any edition but all hardcover or, you know, your butcher like, you’re like 15 deep, you like you and they’re all paperback and they all look the same.
00:28:18:47 – 00:28:20:58
Jason Zapata
They are loved. And that’s the thing about a.
00:28:20:59 – 00:28:22:05
Agent Palmer
Two on a shelf.
00:28:22:05 – 00:28:50:50
Jason Zapata
Right there, right there. They’re the wonderfully dog eared and, creased spines. But I’ve read probably each one at least 2 or 3 times at least. And, same thing with the RA Salvatore novels for dreads. And that character being, you know, stranger in a Strange Land, his whole tail being, a general dark elf, you know, good hard, gets the surface world meets friends, you know, goes on adventures.
00:28:50:55 – 00:29:13:19
Jason Zapata
Yeah. That, you know, I enjoy that whole, that whole, facet of the story, especially. And then, of course, you know, Terry Brooks says, as we’ve discussed, he’d the hair to token. Yeah, as it were. And, just being able to just do a deep dive into the fantasy and just like you said, escape. There’s no relating to the current setting, current times.
00:29:13:23 – 00:29:18:13
Jason Zapata
You’ve got crazy magic whirling Jared. You’ve got warlocks, you got elves, goblins, the whole the whole thing.
00:29:18:13 – 00:29:19:59
Agent Palmer
So flying ships.
00:29:19:59 – 00:29:27:12
Jason Zapata
Flying our ships towards the middle of the late in, the series. Yeah, very, very much so. Yeah. I got women becoming trees. Like, what the hell, man?
00:29:27:18 – 00:29:27:37
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:29:27:39 – 00:29:32:38
Jason Zapata
It’s. Yes. Spoiler. So yeah, we’re throwing all of those spoilers and spoilers. Yeah.
00:29:32:43 – 00:29:40:33
Agent Palmer
All right. Well, I mean, you and I could probably talk books forever, so let’s let’s move on to whatever you’ve got in store for number three.
00:29:40:38 – 00:29:44:16
Jason Zapata
Number three, what qualities do you look for in men?
00:29:44:21 – 00:29:47:48
Agent Palmer
So I, I take this to mean friendship.
00:29:47:53 – 00:29:48:25
Jason Zapata
Yes.
00:29:48:25 – 00:30:17:21
Agent Palmer
Like, and I so for anybody who’s listened, this is the reverse of the friendship episodes. Right. You were the first. Then it went to Chris, then it went to build and it went to the other Chris. And for the first questionnaire, I went backwards. And we’re all still friends. And I wonder what traits do you all have in common?
00:30:17:26 – 00:30:40:28
Agent Palmer
Which is why we’re still friends, because obviously when we talked in the friendship episodes, we talked about how we became friends. But, all of us basically said there’s something there. Yeah, some of it’s shared experience and being thrown in together, in, in whatever it is. But there’s got to be something else that keeps it going.
00:30:40:32 – 00:31:19:42
Agent Palmer
And what could that possibly be? And I got to be honest, I think part of it is, there is a trust factor there. Now that could be time again. You know, that could just be something that develops. But I also think that beyond trust, there’s an honesty I get from all of you that, like, I have to look at more than one because you’re you’re all different, but we’re all close enough that like, why why is this?
00:31:19:46 – 00:31:51:14
Agent Palmer
I think there’s an honesty. Yeah. I think, you know, Bill and Chris Meyer were not around during the college years to tell truth to me about certain things that I was doing that I probably shouldn’t have been and then eventually came and didn’t do, grew out of grew out of whatever. And I think that it’s that I still believe that if we could time travel, I think Chris and Bill would say the same thing that you and Chris also said, right.
00:31:51:14 – 00:31:59:00
Agent Palmer
And I think there’s an honesty there. And it’s like, I don’t have to tell you what you want to hear. I tell you what you need to hear.
00:31:59:04 – 00:32:22:20
Jason Zapata
I think kind of matching with what you’re saying is it’s the flaws that you can relate to and also at times admire in people like I would say for you, you’re very unique, especially when you’re young. You’re very impetuous, like, you are kind of always kind of, I would say getting into trouble, but I would say that you would.
00:32:22:25 – 00:32:24:27
Agent Palmer
Want to poor decision making mistakes.
00:32:24:29 – 00:32:28:28
Jason Zapata
At times. Yes. I would say that some of your times your judgment was a little questionable at times.
00:32:28:37 – 00:32:30:19
Agent Palmer
I would say sometimes it was impaired.
00:32:30:28 – 00:32:51:20
Jason Zapata
Yeah, yeah as well. But looking back on it, I look back on that kind of fondly. It’s like, well he was he was willing to kind of, you know, take a couple more chances, romantically and sometimes in other ways that I normally wouldn’t. And I kind of admired that about you. It’s like, okay, I don’t think I ever see myself doing that, but he he he did it.
00:32:51:20 – 00:32:58:24
Jason Zapata
So I give you give you credit for that. I give you props like, okay, well no, that’s not necessarily a completely bad thing that.
00:32:58:28 – 00:33:23:44
Agent Palmer
I just, I just think that for, you know, there is a it has to be truth and honesty because I just feel like in the world we live in today, specifically, where, you know, I have a podcast and I have a blog, so I’m part of the online ecosystem, but I don’t polish this. I make it sound good, but what we say is what we say.
00:33:23:56 – 00:33:32:49
Agent Palmer
I’m not piecemeal ING it together so that like, you know, it sounds smarter than we do or dumber than we do. This is just who we.
00:33:32:49 – 00:33:36:48
Jason Zapata
Are, is not being massaged to fit a certain number of demographics or target audience.
00:33:36:48 – 00:33:52:55
Agent Palmer
And I think that in that way, the honesty and truth in our actual relationships, because when you do go online, you really can’t believe anything you see or read. And if you do, you should take it with a grain of salt.
00:33:52:55 – 00:33:53:31
Jason Zapata
Absolutely.
00:33:53:31 – 00:34:16:06
Agent Palmer
And for the most part, the words that come out of your mouth or any of the others that I’ve mentioned and had on during the Friendship or Bruce questionnaire with Chris, Chris and Bill, you might you might take the piss. You might you might have some fun at my expense, but I generally it will be, straight shooting.
00:34:16:11 – 00:34:32:10
Agent Palmer
It will be we only beat around the bush when we want to have a good time and tell, like a bit of jokes are going up. A pun, or lyrical journey, you know, quoting things back and forth. But otherwise it’s like, hey, what’s going on? I’m going to tell you, yeah.
00:34:32:14 – 00:34:52:43
Jason Zapata
There’s an underscore of just, altruism. Like, you know, you have the other friends best interests at heart, like, you know, you’re going to, you know, and friends picking each other. That’s what we do. Like, it’s like it’s it’s it’s what brothers do. This is what friends do. Or they, you know, little jabs here and there. But at the end of the day, it’s everyone knows it’s not malicious.
00:34:52:43 – 00:34:57:15
Jason Zapata
It’s it’s it’s intended just to get a laugh or crack out of someone. So.
00:34:57:19 – 00:35:00:54
Agent Palmer
And what about you? What are what do you look for?
00:35:00:59 – 00:35:26:56
Jason Zapata
What do I look for? I would say a degree of loyalty. You want someone who puts is willing to honor, certain understandings to have over time. Someone you can, Like you said, trust is a he’s a huge thing with any friendship you have for you. You know, you people need to be able to talk about things, and you have to be able to feel like they can trust this other person with, you know, their secrets or their struggles, you know?
00:35:26:56 – 00:35:43:38
Jason Zapata
And, a good friend is a good psychiatrist, like, you know, you’re going to sit there, it’s like you’re in, I’m burning your you’re your heart with all the horrors that you see in your day to day. And they’re going to do the same thing for you. And and that’s what, the beautiful thing about it, and, that only grows over time, you know, they’re going.
00:35:43:38 – 00:35:48:33
Agent Palmer
To they’re going to they’re going to shine a light on some of the dark spots, but they’re going to be there with you, like, yeah.
00:35:48:34 – 00:35:49:10
Jason Zapata
Absolutely.
00:35:49:14 – 00:36:12:44
Agent Palmer
It’s almost like, you know, cliche, like Scooby Doo gang, like they shine the light, but everybody looks at the ghost or the manhole cover or the the bed frame that it is. There’s nobody holding the light looking the other way. Right. Everybody’s looking. And so there is an element of that, of course, that’s you know, that’s kind of been our dynamic.
00:36:12:44 – 00:36:38:27
Agent Palmer
Absolutely. And we go back and forth as to who needs the help. And, you know, arguably that’s could be every conversation we have. And I think that’s the other thing that I think, you know, and you and I are guilty of this, there are probably some serious conversations that we put off in lieu of a good time.
00:36:38:32 – 00:36:54:58
Agent Palmer
Like we can easily have some very serious conversations about certain things, but sometimes I just want to know what you think about the latest movie, you know? And it’s just we’re we’re still going to be friends. We’ll still talk about the serious thing later. But for now.
00:36:55:03 – 00:37:22:16
Jason Zapata
Well, yeah. And that’s the other thing too. It’s you. You want to get away from the hardship sometimes and just have an escape with your friend. That’s the other thing too. It’s a friend’s day to kind of allow you the opportunity to, you know, stop dwelling on something or, you know, you know, get it, get a complete palate cleanse by just going out and just like, leaving whatever you’re you’re working on alone and just just doing something that gets you away from that.
00:37:22:16 – 00:37:23:11
Agent Palmer
To something different.
00:37:23:11 – 00:37:24:15
Jason Zapata
Yeah. Something different.
00:37:24:20 – 00:37:30:03
Agent Palmer
So like, come here for a Saturday and don’t work and just hang out.
00:37:30:12 – 00:37:58:09
Jason Zapata
Yeah. That very, very crucial, important. But, you know, it’s again, it’s those shared experiences. It’s that, that that trust is developed over time. It’s the ability to, you know, just do things, engage in meaningful things with someone because that’s the whole human experience, right? It’s it’s a shared experience. So when I’m dead and gone, did I do things with other people that they’re actually going to remember?
00:37:58:13 – 00:38:00:22
Jason Zapata
Yeah. That’s that’s the key thing.
00:38:00:26 – 00:38:12:47
Agent Palmer
Yeah. There’s also an amount of, that with us specifically where it’s like, what else are we leaving behind? Like, you know, there’s a book of poetry put together.
00:38:12:47 – 00:38:13:26
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:38:13:30 – 00:38:15:15
Agent Palmer
There’s another one that we should have put together.
00:38:15:15 – 00:38:16:25
Jason Zapata
It’s, it’s it’s in there.
00:38:16:34 – 00:38:17:51
Agent Palmer
It’s honestly, it’s still working.
00:38:17:51 – 00:38:25:32
Jason Zapata
I feel like I’m being attacked in this podcast about unfinished projects. I feel like this is a low key, ambush to to get me to.
00:38:25:37 – 00:38:26:58
Agent Palmer
I’ve only mentioned two.
00:38:27:00 – 00:38:30:39
Jason Zapata
I do mention the book a couple times. You’ve mentioned, you know, it’s it’s come up.
00:38:30:41 – 00:38:52:59
Agent Palmer
I can I can mention in the third if we want to go for the trifecta like there is a, there’s a collection of short stories that’s out there as well. There’s a second book of poetry, there’s a novel manuscript, and there is a collection of short stories. So there are three things in theory that have all been started and are in some various, on their way to completion.
00:38:52:59 – 00:39:06:39
Jason Zapata
The second book of poetry is basically done. There’s like two, 2 or 3 poems I need to finish and it’ll be done. We’ll see. And then the, the short question, short stories have a that’s the one that has the most, like, legwork. It’s it’s a do.
00:39:06:39 – 00:39:10:05
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Because the manuscript for the novel was actually completed.
00:39:10:05 – 00:39:10:38
Jason Zapata
Like, am.
00:39:10:47 – 00:39:12:35
Agent Palmer
I feel like a decade ago at this.
00:39:12:35 – 00:39:16:42
Jason Zapata
Point. Yes, I easily, easily. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:16:46 – 00:39:35:00
Agent Palmer
No, I’m not attacking you. I do bring it up occasionally on this show. People are like, what? What do you, like, what do you what do you want to do? Like, if there’s one project and I’m like, I want to finish. I want to finish the part of the novel. Like I want him to finish the novel so we can get that.
00:39:35:00 – 00:40:06:23
Agent Palmer
And I like going back to the virtue. Like, I want people who want things for me. Yeah. And I, I definitely have surrounded myself with people that want things for me, but, like, I also want things for them. And I think, God, I wish I was, had a better memory for some of this stuff. I’ve talked about Bill and wanting him to get back into the creation space, and I’m not a dick about it, but sometimes we have a laugh.
00:40:06:23 – 00:40:07:59
Agent Palmer
It’s like, hey, Bill, if you know.
00:40:08:00 – 00:40:08:19
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
00:40:08:34 – 00:40:34:42
Agent Palmer
And, you know, for you, I’ll ask. And then, you know, it goes back like, this is maybe the culmination of that. That question altogether is like every new year I go, is it a priority this year? We going to do it? Because if it is, you know, I’ll bother you with every week until it’s done. And if it isn’t, I’m still going to bother you about it, but not nearly as doggedly as it is.
00:40:34:42 – 00:40:39:12
Agent Palmer
And that’s just a general understanding, I know. Eventually we’ll get to it.
00:40:39:21 – 00:40:40:01
Jason Zapata
00:40:40:58 – 00:40:45:20
Agent Palmer
Back to the first question. No, I’m impatient. I want it to be now.
00:40:45:22 – 00:40:46:43
Jason Zapata
00:40:46:48 – 00:40:53:35
Agent Palmer
Okay. So there is, some of those stuff, but like, it does come back to, like, I want something for you.
00:40:53:35 – 00:41:20:43
Jason Zapata
Yeah. And it’s the thing to keep in mind is you want what’s best for your friends, and sometimes it’s it’s, you you view a situation from a different perspective than your friend dies, right? So it’s like you’re you’re you’re kind of fighting for my creative soul, which I always appreciate that fact. And I give you full marks, that you of you’ve been an entrenched fighter, on that matter.
00:41:20:47 – 00:41:23:19
Jason Zapata
And I listen to you and I respect everything.
00:41:23:22 – 00:41:25:26
Agent Palmer
And I’m not making any progress.
00:41:25:26 – 00:41:46:42
Jason Zapata
Yeah, I know, like, and, you do, because I wouldn’t give it. I at least I it’s always in the back of my mind. I wouldn’t even be in the back of my mind if not for you. On the other end of that, it’s when you’re in, you’re in living it, right? When you’re in that moment and you’re trying to resiliently get through some bad times to get to a goal that you have.
00:41:46:46 – 00:42:00:43
Jason Zapata
A life goal that that kind of helps cement things for you. It’s it’s difficult to do that. Well, realizing that you’re sacrificing things that are important to you or time that’s important to you in order to accomplish this major goal.
00:42:00:44 – 00:42:17:12
Agent Palmer
And it’s all about, honestly, it’s the time. It is. It’s all about I mean, it’s it’s so weird because like 20 years ago, you and I having this conversation, we’d be like, we need money. We need we need all the money. And now it’s like, I need more time.
00:42:17:15 – 00:42:31:08
Jason Zapata
Yeah, it’s it again. Bell curves. Right. It always it always switches. And that’s the situation that I’m kind of starting to find myself in. More and more is like, I really need more than then.
00:42:31:13 – 00:42:36:29
Agent Palmer
But you’re finally in a place where you can control, maybe living.
00:42:36:34 – 00:42:41:25
Jason Zapata
Look, starving artists are very romantic. It’s it’s wonderful to to to be right.
00:42:41:25 – 00:42:43:02
Agent Palmer
Nobody wants to actually starve.
00:42:43:04 – 00:43:05:45
Jason Zapata
No, no it’s not. It’s like at a certain point you’re like, man, I am tired of living paycheck to paycheck. I just want to wake up one morning and not, like, be in financial drag. One. Very nice. So you you get to a point where it’s like, okay, this I have to just do this now. I have to kind of get this one thing taken care of and then pivot and come back and do the things that I want to do.
00:43:05:50 – 00:43:28:51
Jason Zapata
So you need to have a good, trusted friend to kind of keep you honest about that. So when you do, you eventually get you’re going to where you’re okay, I’m done. Done. I’m I’ve accomplished my goals in this, this area. There’s this career, this job, this whatever your particular quest would be. Then it’s like, okay, put down the sword and shield, come back and you know, now live.
00:43:28:51 – 00:43:30:31
Jason Zapata
Do what you want to do now.
00:43:30:35 – 00:43:39:31
Agent Palmer
So all right, so we’ve we’ve I think we’ve covered and revisited a few questions. We did. So do you have a fourth.
00:43:39:31 – 00:43:40:05
Jason Zapata
I do.
00:43:40:07 – 00:43:40:41
Agent Palmer
Question.
00:43:40:41 – 00:43:49:54
Jason Zapata
And I think what we’re going to go with. And we kind of talked shop with you know novels and stories but favorite heroines infection okay.
00:43:49:59 – 00:44:20:19
Agent Palmer
So this one is would have probably been harder years ago. Years ago, I wasn’t reading that much that had women in it, just in general. But of late that’s changed. I mean, Terry Brooks does a great job of including women. And so there, there could easily be any number of characters from from the Shannara series, any number.
00:44:20:19 – 00:44:54:53
Agent Palmer
But I will say Fiona Sampson from, Len Deighton, is a great heroine. And if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, how is she a heroine? That’s probably a spoiler for you. So I like that because you just it was it was unexpected is all. So that’s one I think the rest are more, because it is fiction, so it can be anything.
00:44:54:57 – 00:44:57:35
Jason Zapata
Movies, I podcasts.
00:44:57:36 – 00:45:12:57
Agent Palmer
I would argue that, while people don’t like the reboots of the Jurassic franchise, Claire, from who’s played by,
00:45:13:02 – 00:45:15:42
Jason Zapata
I can see this is when I was up on my phone. Yeah, that’s fine.
00:45:15:54 – 00:45:18:40
Agent Palmer
But it’s fine. I’m all right with not knowing, but I’m not.
00:45:18:40 – 00:45:19:45
Jason Zapata
How do I know right now?
00:45:19:46 – 00:45:50:12
Agent Palmer
But Claire, who’s, the redhead in the in the first Jurassic World franchise just taken over the day to day of the park, I read, a fictionalized novel of what happened to her before she became, in charge of the park. And that that was that was pretty good. And I think just on a whole, Star Trek has given me quite a few, options.
00:45:50:17 – 00:45:51:00
Agent Palmer
Janeway.
00:45:51:00 – 00:45:53:30
Jason Zapata
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:53:35 – 00:46:24:43
Agent Palmer
But but I would also say like, there’s, there’s not nearly as many that come to mind sadly. And I think that’s just what I’m consuming. I need to consume a few more things. But on a whole, I’m just excited when a woman gets like, I, I know there’s a lot of arguments out there where people don’t think about gender or they think it’s gender swapping, or it’s just gender baiting, or they’re just throwing somebody in there.
00:46:24:43 – 00:46:58:23
Agent Palmer
But I, I genuinely think that we’re not given enough opportunity to see women in leading roles in massive things like, Charlize Theron in Atomic Blond is an amazing heroine, but you don’t really like we don’t. That’s such a specific piece. We don’t get to see it very often. So I don’t know. I’m probably ill equipped to answer this in a great way because I just my brain immediately goes blank whenever anybody asks me this stuff.
00:46:58:28 – 00:47:25:00
Agent Palmer
If I were to write a blog post about it, it might be a little bit more thought out. I’d be able to walk through my library and see the books I’ve read and go like, oh yeah, this one. Oh yeah, that one. And the same goes for movies. But I mean, I think I’ve named a few, honestly, it would be nice if Eleanor from Wizards got, like, a sequel and we could see what happened when she became queen of the fairies.
00:47:25:05 – 00:47:49:21
Agent Palmer
She’s more of a damsel in distress and wizards than anything else. And I don’t know how I feel about any outside of Eowyn, about any of the Lord of the rings, because of how changed it was from the books. So it would be like, you know, Galadriel is pretty badass in the movies, but I don’t remember because I haven’t read the books in so long.
00:47:49:34 – 00:48:10:02
Agent Palmer
If that translates in both places. Yeah. Which goes back to your first visit when we talked about adaptation. So I don’t know. But I will say I’m, I’m coming to enjoy it a little bit more when I see it. I just don’t see it that often.
00:48:10:07 – 00:48:34:31
Jason Zapata
I think it’s certainly gotten better, like over time. Like, I think that, I think at times certain genres kind of overcompensated with trying to make sure that, females were given a, a supporting, not not supporting role, a spotlight or leading role. In terms of, females that I love in fiction, I have to go with the goat, sci fi heroines.
00:48:34:31 – 00:49:11:23
Jason Zapata
And that’s going to be Ellen Ripley from the aliens franchise. Like my girl and her little, Reebok sneakers kicking some ass. Like, I love that series. You have someone who survives a horrific event. Comes back to find out countless years have passed. Her daughter is dead. She’s completely traumatized from the events. And the only way that she can move on is that she has to join this expedition to go back to the site where this all happened and directly, face that trauma.
00:49:11:28 – 00:49:36:45
Jason Zapata
And she does so in such a crazy way. And, you know, her relationship with Newt, that the little girl that she rescues and all of that is just so clutch and very cool. And as a character, there’s very few instances where I he’s up to he’s one of my favorite characters, period, let alone female heroine. Like, she’s just secured that spot.
00:49:36:49 – 00:49:57:40
Jason Zapata
I would also throw out, from the old days of watching TV. Yeah. Xena Warrior Princess. Yeah. There you go, Lucy Lawless. Thank you. As an ass kicker, tarot. And and for something a bit more nuanced and, a bit more, well rounded, I would say Lisbeth. Slander from the millennium series. The book series?
00:49:57:45 – 00:50:22:17
Jason Zapata
I believe it’s a Swedish offer. Guys, I, I don’t know the gentleman’s name off the top of my head, but she’s essentially the female cyber version of Sherlock Holmes. Okay? Where she’s a hacker, she’s. I think she’s got identical, memory as well. And just her. And just from her own experience, she’s she’s also another one of those tortured souls where she doesn’t really know how to relate to the broader world.
00:50:22:17 – 00:50:54:56
Jason Zapata
Okay, so it’s it’s it’s it’s a very interesting take that she has when she meets certain people and she has this one, male journalist, Micki McCall. McCall, who she idolizes. And just trying to see how she, seeing how she reacts to him when she meets him in person is hysterical because she wants to to she it’s so hard for her to visibly show that, you know, and let her guard down, because this is someone who’s just gone through so many horrible things.
00:50:55:01 – 00:51:08:09
Jason Zapata
So there’s just a very layered character, and it’s just great. I do recommend anyone, if they’re looking for a good read in terms like, murder mystery and they want a dynamic heroine, pick up that series of books. They’re really good.
00:51:08:19 – 00:51:22:18
Agent Palmer
Okay, I, I gotta tell you, I feel like this is going to be a blog post at some point. Because I feel like I haven’t done well enough, you know, I just just haven’t.
00:51:22:23 – 00:51:31:24
Jason Zapata
Yeah. It’s it’s, you know, again, it’s also who it’s not necessarily that you do well enough. I think at the end of the day, you’re drawn to certain things. Right.
00:51:31:38 – 00:51:33:17
Agent Palmer
No. We want to see ourselves.
00:51:33:17 – 00:51:34:09
Jason Zapata
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00:51:34:17 – 00:52:06:30
Agent Palmer
I guess, you know. Yeah. And I think that one of those things for age is like, I don’t care about seeing myself as much as maybe I used to because, well, I’m not going to be James Bond. Like that ship sailed long ago, right? Like I’m not going to be a baseball player that ships, you know, like all these things where, you know, when you’re ten or even 20, even though it’s unlikely, you still kind of think you’re you’re going to see yourself.
00:52:06:35 – 00:52:22:25
Agent Palmer
And now it’s like, yeah, that’s, that’s that’s not going to happen. So I feel like you can take a few more chances. You can read a book with a female heroine or a female lead, because you don’t need to see yourself, in that way.
00:52:22:30 – 00:52:47:59
Jason Zapata
I also think it’s, it’s it’s the Chandra’s collective learning of how to handle this. Right. So over time, you know, most authors or male authors, that’s just how that was. So it’s the is the the practice of writing and the writers involved in that. It’s that whole holistic circle. It’s just, you know, evolving over time and working with a new dynamic.
00:52:48:04 – 00:53:03:32
Jason Zapata
So we’re all kind of in this together. And I think sometimes we where we kind of rushed to a John Schimmel, you’re not reading enough of this or you don’t understand this well enough. We’re all evolving. We’re all doing this all at once. It’s not there’s no right answer to this. We’re we’re all in this, this car together.
00:53:03:32 – 00:53:16:35
Agent Palmer
And as long as I’m willing to keep reading, like, as long as there’s another book that I’m willing to pick up, there’s always something exactly.
00:53:16:39 – 00:53:39:03
Agent Palmer
And so, like, say it’s through the hourglass. Thus ends the initial Proust Questionnaire episodes with my four friends who are also a part of the friendship episodes. Truthfully, at the beginning I thought we would get through more questions than we did. There are 17 questions and we got through 13 of them, though technically there could be as many as seven left, depending on your interpretation, but we won’t get bogged down in that right now.
00:53:39:12 – 00:53:55:54
Agent Palmer
The point to all of this is that these questions exist out there in the world, and whether you listen to just this episode or all of them so far, you may come to the same conclusion I did. These were my closest friends, and while answers may have been hinted at, I think we all learned something about each other.
00:53:55:59 – 00:54:24:24
Agent Palmer
That is the power of conversation. That’s what dialog can do. And if choosing from these questions can help me learn something about my four closest friends, imagine what talking to someone new could unlock. I started and continue to do this podcast because I enjoy conversation. I enjoy learning about people and perhaps above all, I enjoy stories. I enjoy hearing them, and I enjoy telling them.
00:54:24:29 – 00:54:47:57
Agent Palmer
And while reading is a good way to engage with the story, there is no substitute for conversation when it comes to engaging in meaningful communication with another person. So pick up the phone and call someone, or put down the phone and talk to someone who’s in the room with you. Either way, engage in meaningful communication, which doesn’t have to be anything more than asking you a question or answering one.
00:54:48:02 – 00:55:07:12
Agent Palmer
It really is that simple. Thanks for listening to the Palmer Files episode 163. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays. If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact Zapata and myself in the show notes. You can see all of Zapata’s work at Jason zapata.com.
00:55:07:16 – 00:55:29:01
Agent Palmer
The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email and comments can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com. And remember, you’re home for all things agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:55:29:06 – 00:56:02:19
Agent Palmer
You.
00:56:02:23 – 00:56:16:08
Agent Palmer
All right, Jay, can you believe that at one point, the Bruce questionnaire was a game for, like, people when they got together in the 70s would play this is a game and just sit around after dinner and just be like, hey, what’s your favorite virtue?
00:56:16:12 – 00:56:40:09
Jason Zapata
I, I don’t I don’t I’m not surprised by that. And I would say this, I think, again, meaningful conversation is is a lost art. I recently had a, dinner party at my house where I had some colleagues from work come over and, you know, being able to have those types of skills or just being able to willingly have open dialogs with people, it is a lost art.
00:56:40:09 – 00:56:57:27
Jason Zapata
We don’t we don’t really do that anymore. It’s not really. It’s it’s again goes back to many several things. It’s like a lot of people are still struggling just to get a house, to be able to host people. Yeah. People being willing to take the chance to bring people over to their house and being comfortable enough to do that is, is is a weird thing now.
00:56:57:32 – 00:57:03:33
Jason Zapata
So, I hope it makes a comeback. I hope that something that sticks around and we can kind of get back to that.
00:57:03:33 – 00:57:07:57
Agent Palmer
I mean, it would be the these are I mean, these are not easy questions.
00:57:08:01 – 00:57:15:45
Jason Zapata
But I it’s I don’t think it’s like I think it’s fairly it’s fairly easy. And I don’t think it’s like super simple, but it’s fairly, it’s fairly easy.
00:57:15:49 – 00:57:34:08
Agent Palmer
Yeah. But you, you and I maybe not specifically with this language because it’s very specific language. When you go down the whole list. But you and I have talked about the like the I think you and I are skewed a bit because we’ve talked about most of this stuff before.
00:57:34:13 – 00:57:34:51
Jason Zapata
Well, I sound like.
00:57:34:53 – 00:57:35:30
Agent Palmer
In some.
00:57:35:30 – 00:57:49:21
Jason Zapata
Capacity, I think this particular list that we have, and maybe there’s different lists that have a bit more pressing questions, but it was like we’re saying, like, what’s your most shameful moment? Or which, you know what, what’s the worst trait, you know, but you are still.
00:57:49:21 – 00:57:58:36
Agent Palmer
Burying a little bit of you when you go with idea of happiness, idea of misery. There’s still a bit of sobering in some, of course. Yeah, but.
00:57:58:40 – 00:58:07:29
Jason Zapata
Yeah, but again, it’s how you approach the question. Well, you could be kind of shallow with some of these questions about how you approach it. It’s on the person, how they’re comfortable.
00:58:07:29 – 00:58:14:18
Agent Palmer
And it’s also with yeah, but but even the simplest answer, like if you can give an explanation, it’ll work for you.
00:58:14:23 – 00:58:36:57
Jason Zapata
You could you could go on that route. I would say, there wasn’t including this list I’m kind of curious about, like, what do you feel people get wrong about you? Like, is there there’s a certain thing that they just you feel people overlook when they went and given, the friendships that you have, is there a certain trait that we all, as your friends don’t do you don’t feel that we give you enough recognition on or we don’t see?
00:58:37:02 – 00:58:38:55
Jason Zapata
Did you think they did? We should see more often.
00:58:39:08 – 00:59:04:38
Agent Palmer
No, I, I don’t think there’s any of that and I will I don’t I guess this is a selfish answer, but I think I’ve trained you all well enough, and I mean that in that, like the four of you specifically, you know, Bill and Chris are in podcasting. Chris Hughes knows of it. And because of me and you know of it because me.
00:59:04:38 – 00:59:30:49
Agent Palmer
But you’re not in it. And, you know, you tried your hand at blogging, and Chris kind of is a writer, but he’s not a blogger. Bill dabbled in writing and Chris hasn’t. Chris can write, but he doesn’t do it very often. You know, he’s busy with a wife and two daughters and, you know, you know, actually, both Chris’s are busy with a wife and two kids.
00:59:30:53 – 00:59:54:02
Agent Palmer
But I think on a whole, there were some maybe growing pains when, like, I started the podcast and. Is it going well? How’s it going? But I don’t think you guys, I think I. And this is where I, you know, I don’t want to give myself credit, but I know I think I’ve trained you guys to see where I’m coming from.
00:59:54:07 – 01:00:17:51
Agent Palmer
I’m doing this because I enjoy having these conversations with more than just the four of you. And I think you guys understand that. And I think you guys are all happy that you’re not the one I talked to every two weeks for an hour and a half, specifically about some of these things. And you’re happy that, like, I’m talking to other people and I’m getting to know other people, and I’m kind of getting out of the circle.
01:00:17:51 – 01:00:41:10
Agent Palmer
And you. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. I’ve made some friends doing this, that people that I text and call on a regular basis, that were just a guest I randomly had on. But these passions are outside of the four of you, the most misconstrued thing of people who know me or know of me. And because you guys don’t dwell on, like, the numbers, or are you making money?
01:00:41:10 – 01:00:45:37
Agent Palmer
Because that’s not why I’m doing it. But you know, and this is why I say, you know, I.
01:00:45:42 – 01:00:47:19
Jason Zapata
I do know it’s your passion.
01:00:47:19 – 01:01:08:01
Agent Palmer
Well, yeah, but but you’ve we’ve gotten here though. You know that now, right. Like I think at the very beginning, especially for you and Chris, who were the first two friendship episodes that were not in podcasting. And I, it was foreign to you. It was a bit of a learning curve for like, what the heck is he doing?
01:01:08:01 – 01:01:43:21
Agent Palmer
You know, like, so there is some of that, but I feel like I have to give you all four of you credit. And, you know, kind of maybe to a similar extent, my parents and Steph, in that, you know, there are other people who know of me that are like, he’s still doing that podcast thing or like, he make any money at that or he’s still he’s still writing, you know, always with a question mark, always with, you know, either, a follow up that was said, which is do you make any money of that or unsaid?
01:01:43:36 – 01:01:56:26
Agent Palmer
They just, you know, go, well, good. Okay. You know, so there’s that where like the people who know of me and maybe don’t know me well enough, they go like, oh, what, what what’s he doing?
01:01:56:35 – 01:01:58:01
Jason Zapata
Yeah.
01:01:58:06 – 01:02:05:00
Agent Palmer
And it goes back to, you know, I, I think.
01:02:05:05 – 01:02:12:56
Jason Zapata
We associate so much meaning with, like, occupations and careers versus what should be, you know.
01:02:13:11 – 01:02:17:58
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. You’re not allowed to have a hobby that you do for fun, like.
01:02:17:58 – 01:02:24:15
Jason Zapata
Well, not just at, like the thing that I see some strange, quantifiable success.
01:02:24:20 – 01:02:24:49
Agent Palmer
Well.
01:02:24:54 – 01:03:01:47
Jason Zapata
Correct. Correct. So adding people dismiss meaningful, actual, meaningful things like, yes, it’s wonderful to be successful, you know, working some type of corporate job, you know, working with other people. That’s great. But to be able to create something that can have mass meaning for a mass number of people that your name will be attached to, that’s a that’s a legacy, whether it’s art, whether it’s a story, you know, to something that’s beyond you that you’ve made, that’s meaning, that’s something that’s, that’s that that gets overlooked in all of this because.
01:03:01:50 – 01:03:25:12
Agent Palmer
You’re coming from, artist perspective. You’re not like, even though you are in corporate and I’m the one banging on the door saying, hey, remember Art? Yeah. You were an artist before, so you will never forget that there is an art thing. Yeah. And that art doesn’t have to have a meaning. And it doesn’t. You know, you.
01:03:25:17 – 01:03:26:46
Jason Zapata
Do have to have a meaning, but.
01:03:26:47 – 01:03:30:53
Agent Palmer
Doing is part of the meaning, the process.
01:03:30:53 – 01:04:05:50
Jason Zapata
Well intentioned and actual. Again and again. Some of this could be subjective, but, you know, heartfelt art, like something that you actually care about. And you’ve sank many hours in and you’ve worked on this craft once that’s like, it’s it’s a part of you. Yeah. And when you share that, that very intimate piece of you to the world, the greater world, and it has value and people attach, you know, strong emotions and feelings to that, that has a huge effect on, you know, society, on your, your, your, your culture.
01:04:05:50 – 01:04:26:09
Jason Zapata
It’s like that’s, that has a, if not a greater importance. And trust is great an importance as any achievements that you’ll have working a 9 to 5 or a salaried position. And I think again, just because society, that’s how we’ve kind of come to view things dating market wise is like, okay, well what do you do now? What do you do for a job?
01:04:26:09 – 01:04:35:13
Jason Zapata
It’s like, okay, but if you happen to be the next Hemingway or the next Shakespeare and like, you know, you have some, you know, job, do you just do it just.
01:04:35:18 – 01:04:42:07
Agent Palmer
So, so, so, you know, you’re you’re in speed dating and Einstein sitting across from you, like, what do you do? I work at the post office. Yeah.
01:04:42:08 – 01:05:06:23
Jason Zapata
All right. Yeah. Whatever it is, it’s like, is that so? It’s like we. That’s the frustrating thing that I feel like we’ve kind of sabotaged our society over and and it’s frustrating. And I just hope that we can kind of come back from that and we can start just isn’t always have to be these checkboxes that you have to check to feel accomplished or to feel that you’re worthy of a relationship or to feel it.
01:05:06:23 – 01:05:13:44
Jason Zapata
You know, you have a place in a community. It’s just like it could be any number of things, and we should value as many of those things as we can.
01:05:13:48 – 01:05:42:17
Agent Palmer
And, you know, there’s an amount of that which is sometimes you’ll build your own community, which I mean, we’ve seen it. You can’t go on YouTube for big or small and not find somebody who’s made their own community in a way. Same with podcasting, same with blogging. And some of those are quote unquote now legacy media. But it’s still finding, community, period.
01:05:42:17 – 01:06:04:21
Agent Palmer
Right. And so maybe that’s why you started it. Maybe part of the art was the end that I want to find a community of, like minded xyzzy. Right. Or, you know, just people that are interested in the same stuff. It’s why fandoms are both sadly so divisive and communal.
01:06:04:26 – 01:06:04:56
Jason Zapata
Very true.
01:06:04:58 – 01:06:20:38
Agent Palmer
Very, but I think the divisiveness in all of it is because we’ve lost that it’s communal and it’s good that you have your community, and that’s nothing against the fact that you’re not in mind. Right. It’s it’s.
01:06:20:38 – 01:06:21:41
Jason Zapata
Okay. Yeah that’s.
01:06:21:41 – 01:06:40:00
Agent Palmer
Fine. But on a whole I think you know, hobbies for hobby sake. Right. Like yeah I think generally you, I go back to the four of you because you’re my closest friends. But you are all, you all have your own hobbies.
01:06:40:00 – 01:07:03:08
Jason Zapata
So I would, I would bring up. Yeah. Is and we’ve talked about this before and some of my coworkers, they’re terrified about if they didn’t have to work, what they would do. And I look at it, I’m like, oh my God, what could I do if I didn’t have to work? Right? Yeah. It’s like, you know, and yeah, it’s again, it’s just it’s life experience I think to for them.
01:07:03:23 – 01:07:26:26
Jason Zapata
Hey. And I’m a bit of an older the older gentleman at this point, but, I think for them it’s just getting a chance to just have opportunities to try new things, man. Like, you know, right now, I’ve been super obsessed with, miniature painting. I’m I’m right now, I’m still trying to get time to do chainmail and working with, weaving male scalings together.
01:07:26:31 – 01:07:34:13
Jason Zapata
Of course, writing. I’m putting around in my yard working on a garden right now, because being a homeowner, I actually have access to land.
01:07:34:15 – 01:07:54:00
Agent Palmer
But, I mean, that’s and that’s a completely different discussion, but there is an amount of I know you’re one of the few people that I know that still physically writes more than you type, especially when it comes to the creative stuff. But you get to physically go home and do stuff with your hands, and that has to be relaxed.
01:07:54:00 – 01:08:13:05
Agent Palmer
Even though it’s hard work, it’s got to be more relaxing than sitting at a desk. Absolutely. And it’s something that you didn’t have access to before. And I’ve talked about it on this show like the first summer I owned the home where, like when you live with your parents, you’re like, I don’t want to mow the lawn. And then you get your own home, especially if you have a a desk job and you’re like, oh, like I did.
01:08:13:09 – 01:08:29:56
Agent Palmer
Look, look what I did. Like I did that, I mowed that, left, I did that, and there’s a sense of accomplishment that you never had with it before. Not and it’s not necessarily just because it’s yours, but by that point in your life, especially if you have a desk job, it’s like, oh no, I did it with my hands.
01:08:29:58 – 01:08:32:14
Agent Palmer
I didn’t type this. I did, I did.
01:08:32:14 – 01:08:49:29
Jason Zapata
That, yeah. And and especially I can’t say how many times I’ve gone out on lunch, taking a bit of a longer lunch and I, I’m on my lawn. It’s relaxing. It gets me outside. You know, it reminds me of what the hell I put myself through to get all this, so. Yeah. Yeah, man.
01:08:49:34 – 01:08:50:41
Agent Palmer
Well, more of it.
01:08:50:46 – 01:08:51:23
Jason Zapata
Absolutely.
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).