Episode 146 with the return or more accurately the continuation of my conversation with Hal Nathan.
During this episode you’ll hear us discuss editing and process, movie length and consuming film and media, structure and creation, plus I may or may not rant about the film industry…
Mentioned and Helpful Links from This Episode
The Passing of the Storyteller – A Story and the Process and Journey of That Story by Agent Palmer
Other Links
A positive light has gone out: On the death of Andrew Belling
The Enduring Wisdom of Simon Wilder in With Honors
Music created and provided by Henno Heitur of Monkey Tongue Productions.
–End Show Notes Transmission–
–Begin Transcription–
00:00:00:05 – 00:00:24:43
Agent Palmer
Previously on Agent Palmer dot com. The Wisdom of Simon Wilder in With honors. Remembering Andrew Belling and Ed will return for my thoughts on Voyager, which I am very much enjoying. This is The Palmer Files episode 146 with The Return, or more accurately, the continuation of my conversation with Hal Nathan. During this episode, you’ll hear us discuss editing and process movie length and consuming film and media structure and creation.
00:00:24:43 – 00:00:59:40
Agent Palmer
Plus, I may or may not rant about the film industry. Are you ready? Let the show go on.
00:00:59:45 – 00:01:01:32
Agent Palmer
Hello, and welcome to The Palmer Files.
00:01:01:33 – 00:01:24:03
Agent Palmer
I’m your host, Jason Stershic. Also known as Agent Palmer. And on this 146th episode is Hal Nathan. Hal is back. As we continue our conversation from episode 143, as has happened before on this podcast. One recorded conversation was enough for two whole episodes, but this one is very different from the first. In fact, this one is much more about Hal asking me questions.
00:01:24:18 – 00:01:52:40
Agent Palmer
Just listen. As Hal asked me about editing and process. Plus, we dive into the entertainment industry from our respective perspectives. A few notes and corrections before we jump in. Real genius is not 87 minutes long. It’s 106. Ghostbusters is 105, so I’m not sure what movie I was thinking of, but then again, that just happens sometimes. However, they are more reasonable than some of the 120 plus minute movies that keep coming out.
00:01:52:44 – 00:02:16:36
Agent Palmer
Dazed and confused is 102, and interstellar is just shy of three hours at two hours and 49 minutes. This’ll all make sense soon, but first, remember that if you want to discuss the episode as you listen or afterwards, you can find all related ways to contact Hal and myself in the show notes. You can visit Hal’s website Hal nathan.com where you can see what he’s been up to and what he’s hit publish on.
00:02:16:50 – 00:02:31:16
Agent Palmer
Don’t forget, you can see all of my writings and rantings on Agent palmer.com. And of course, email can be sent to the Palmer files@gmail.com. So without further ado, let’s get back into it.
00:02:31:20 – 00:02:33:14
Hal Nathan
We talked about writing and editing.
00:02:33:23 – 00:02:34:01
Agent Palmer
Yes.
00:02:34:06 – 00:03:10:16
Hal Nathan
And it was when we were getting into Deep Dive about, I was talking about learning just like the keyboard and learning the softwares and figuring out shortcuts, keyboard shortcuts and just the whole thing, all of that. The editing side. I definitely know that as the writer and director of the film, of the short film that I made, it made it specifically as the writer made it so difficult when I got so attached to that script.
00:03:10:18 – 00:03:10:59
Agent Palmer
Okay. Yep.
00:03:11:05 – 00:03:19:08
Hal Nathan
To then go and edit for my script. Yep. If that makes any sense. No. And I felt like you.
00:03:19:10 – 00:03:21:58
Agent Palmer
Yeah. It’s.
00:03:22:03 – 00:03:34:57
Agent Palmer
Thanks to DVD commentaries, and I don’t know who said this. It’s very much a once you get into the editing bay, you can keep your script for the rough edit.
00:03:35:02 – 00:03:58:34
Agent Palmer
The linear edit, the. This tells the story in the way I envisioned on the script. And that’s always 2.5 hours for a 90 minute feature, right? Like it’s always an hour longer than you need it to be. Yeah. But once you once you use the script to build that 2.5 hours, you have to throw the script away. That’s the only way to do it, basically, from there.
00:03:58:39 – 00:04:39:03
Agent Palmer
You’re using an outline of what exists, not what’s in the script. Which means you’ve already thrown away some good script stuff that just didn’t film right or didn’t sound right or whatever, and that’s when that’s when it becomes a sculpture. And you, you taking away subtraction. It’s addition by subtraction. Up until that, whatever that rough cut is at 2.5 hours, or 3 hours or 4 hours or whatever it ends up being, that’s that’s addition by addition.
00:04:39:08 – 00:05:01:15
Agent Palmer
But once you establish like. All right, this is my final director’s extended cut. It’s addition by subtraction the rest of the way. And you can’t use the script, the existing script anymore. And it’s it’s painful, but you almost have to think of it as a completely different project at that point. And I think that’s the only way you can look at it.
00:05:01:28 – 00:05:27:04
Agent Palmer
I mean, I do the same thing, with podcasts. There’s always outlines. There’s always things people want that like, oh, I want to cut this out. Like, okay, that’s fine. But like it’s not, it’s just for, for whatever reason, it’s just not possible to cut that out or it’s just not possible to leave that in. Well, now you have to make that work around it.
00:05:27:09 – 00:05:46:54
Agent Palmer
And you just have to go, okay. Like do you have a decision to make? And if you’re if you’re editor and director, it’s a lot easier of a decision to make. But if you’re just editor, you go to the director and you won’t do the work to be honest, to be good, or do you want it to be yours?
00:05:46:59 – 00:06:06:15
Agent Palmer
So it’s really one of those two options. It’s like, that’s fine. Like, you can make all the decision or it can be good because for hours, probably not a feature that isn’t is going to work well, right. Like you just it’s not that’s not what most people sign up for. So I like to think that it’s the same way with writing.
00:06:06:28 – 00:06:37:16
Agent Palmer
To me, when you get the first draft on, that’s half the battle. You’re starting over like it’s a new sheet. It’s just time to figure out what we messed up the first time. But you have to treat it like a different project. Because when I do. And it takes a while to get there when I do the intros for this show, originally I treated my intros as what was on the page.
00:06:37:16 – 00:07:04:37
Agent Palmer
Is what you’re going to read, but I want a good product for people to listen to. So maybe my writing’s not always, even though I’m writing for me. Like how how comfortable can we be writing for ourselves? Is this comfortable as you’ll ever be? But you need to do more, right? And I think that’s where you have to treat it very differently as a separate project.
00:07:04:42 – 00:07:24:54
Agent Palmer
You’ll always have that script. You can always go back to it. But like, you have to leave it at home. It’s no longer your guide book anymore, which is good enough because it got you to this point. Now it’s time to hack away at your baby. And pretty much. It’s not easy.
00:07:24:59 – 00:07:25:39
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
00:07:25:44 – 00:07:48:16
Agent Palmer
But this is where I would tell you. Turn everything you do, every, every, every script you have that you don’t sell just turned into a project for yourself. Because the more you do it, the easier it will get. Every project’s different. There’s never going to be like, well, I’ll always cut out the ums, like, that doesn’t work, right?
00:07:48:16 – 00:08:10:56
Agent Palmer
Like, sometimes you need those in, but the more you do it and that’s where you just that’s where it’s like playing an instrument. That’s where it’s like guitar. You’re going to be better with calluses, but the only way to get calluses is to do it. There’s really nothing else.
00:08:11:01 – 00:08:30:30
Hal Nathan
It definitely tried to cut out the ums before, and it does not work. Yeah. So I can back that. Yeah. No. It’s brutal. I mean, I remember going through some of the lines, and talking it, I mean, thinking through in my head how. Oh, man, how impactful it will be for this moment if it’s said this way.
00:08:30:32 – 00:08:31:34
Agent Palmer
Oh, yeah.
00:08:31:38 – 00:08:51:31
Hal Nathan
And then trying to, like, cut it up to communicate that emotion. And I’m like, this is let’s like what you said. That’s for me. Great. But if it isn’t right and it wasn’t done that way, you can’t. You can only do so much to like, fake it or bring it to that or push it in one direction. But after that, it was.
00:08:51:31 – 00:09:15:53
Agent Palmer
Like even in animation, like at a certain point everything’s drawn or rendered everything. All the voice actors are done. You have what you have. And at that point, cutting is all you have left, right? Like, I mean, I know there’s times you have to hit, like if you’re animation, you want it 22 minutes, that’s fine. But like at a point all you can do is cut.
00:09:15:58 – 00:09:31:53
Agent Palmer
And so I would also say this, not for nothing but watch things that you don’t normally watch is the other thing I’d say. Like that’s the other key. Like you have to.
00:09:31:58 – 00:09:41:18
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if you only ever watch one kind of show. I don’t think you’re going to be that, like, yeah, you might be able to get away with it, but like.
00:09:41:23 – 00:10:02:58
Agent Palmer
You can learn by watching. And you know, as a writer, you got to read, you know, it’s it’s all those things. But yeah, I it’s the hardest thing you will ever do. But like, that’s a great line but it’s not necessary. That’s why you need friends that are smarter than you.
00:10:03:03 – 00:10:05:48
Hal Nathan
Yeah I would bunch of those. I’m covered.
00:10:06:03 – 00:10:07:58
Agent Palmer
There you go.
00:10:08:03 – 00:10:15:31
Hal Nathan
That. Certainly. I’ll be good there. Yeah. Oh, man. All right. I guess we’ll see. I guess we’ll see what happens in the editing room next.
00:10:15:42 – 00:10:16:35
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:10:16:39 – 00:10:35:27
Hal Nathan
Hopefully I’ll just read the script and call it a day. After cut after rough cut. 1 or 2. I’ll look at it. I’ll be super happy. I’ll make a bunch of changes. I’ll say, great, this is how long, like you said, four hours. Or if it’s a short, you know it’s 20 minutes over. Great. Okay, perfect. Towards the shredder.
00:10:35:29 – 00:10:41:47
Hal Nathan
Let’s get rid of this. Somebody else. Look at it. Tell me what they hate. Tell me to. My face will make me cry and then get to it.
00:10:41:52 – 00:10:43:02
Agent Palmer
There you go. Yeah.
00:10:43:07 – 00:10:44:21
Hal Nathan
Yeah. So.
00:10:44:21 – 00:10:48:03
Agent Palmer
I will tell you, I think what Dazed and Confused was like that.
00:10:48:07 – 00:10:48:33
Hal Nathan
I.
00:10:48:36 – 00:11:08:38
Agent Palmer
Oh, yeah, I Dazed and Confused was 2.5 hours crazy. Linklater didn’t want to cut anything. I mean, it’s an eight. It’s an 87 minute final product. By the way. What released? I really want to see the two hour cut. Like, I think it would be interesting to see what he really wanted to, but like, nobody’s releasing it. 2.5 hour cut.
00:11:08:43 – 00:11:19:09
Hal Nathan
No, it’s a big thing now to have like a 2 or 3 hour movie. Now it’s like, it’s like a spectacle and it’s like you go and you’re like, prepared. But that doesn’t seem like it’s the.
00:11:19:14 – 00:11:20:53
Agent Palmer
No, I think we’re going to we’re.
00:11:20:58 – 00:11:23:31
Hal Nathan
I don’t know, there’s no I don’t know if the standard is, but that doesn’t seem like the.
00:11:23:45 – 00:11:46:43
Agent Palmer
No, I still think I still think we’re waiting for a renaissance of like 87, 89, 92 minute movies to come back, like the 90 minute mark, to be the 90 minute mark to mean something. But right now it doesn’t like one of my favorite movies and it I what people used to call guilty pleasures. But like I don’t I don’t feel guilty about liking it at all, so I don’t give a fuck.
00:11:46:48 – 00:12:16:08
Agent Palmer
Real genius is 87 minutes long. Right. And it’s got Val Kilmer in probably his best role. And it’s got William Atherton as just another 80s asshole. Right. Like he, he, he did it in Ghostbusters. He did it in like he it’s 87 minutes like you. Maybe I’d like to live in the world more. But they told the story.
00:12:16:12 – 00:12:47:16
Agent Palmer
Story’s done. You don’t. You didn’t need even two hours. And I know, I know like I. And I get crap for this. It for a few of my friends. I hate the Nolan verse because I think every with, I think every Christopher Nolan movies too long. Hey, my favorite Christopher Nolan movie is interstellar, and I think that’s too long.
00:12:47:21 – 00:12:50:11
Hal Nathan
Yeah, interstellar was three, was a three hours.
00:12:50:11 – 00:12:51:54
Agent Palmer
I don’t know if it was three. I think it was two.
00:12:51:54 – 00:12:52:46
Hal Nathan
It was nearly three.
00:12:52:48 – 00:13:16:09
Agent Palmer
Yeah, it was nearly three. But brother. But I look at every Batman in the Nolan verse and I go, yeah, I think I could keep it as a same quality of movie and cut 20 minutes from each of these three, and I feel like I’m unqualified to do that, and I feel like I still get to write later.
00:13:16:14 – 00:13:45:03
Agent Palmer
You know, it’s not like, all right, go, go. Cut five minutes out of Ghostbusters. Like, I don’t know if I can do that because it’s pretty good. But like, Nolan always leaves in two. And and this is not this is not Lord of the rings extended editions either. And that’s, I think, the key. Right. Like if, if the, if the Nolan releases were the extended editions and there were shorter versions that were released in theaters, I think they would have done much better.
00:13:45:08 – 00:14:02:13
Hal Nathan
I where do you see where? I’m curious then. So you you where do you see filmmaking going in the next? Like, I don’t know, like what kinds of trends do you see emerging we have that we still kind of do have that mini series epidemic going on.
00:14:02:13 – 00:14:03:10
Agent Palmer
Oh, God, I don’t know.
00:14:03:10 – 00:14:04:27
Hal Nathan
It’s,
00:14:04:32 – 00:14:12:16
Agent Palmer
I, I yeah, I’m the mini series epidemic is is killing me because I’ll see a trailer for something I’m interested in.
00:14:12:20 – 00:14:13:35
Hal Nathan
Sure.
00:14:13:39 – 00:14:33:07
Agent Palmer
And then I’ll be like, oh, that’s a movie I want to see. And, like, my wife will be like, that’s a that’s a mini series. I’m like, well, I’m not watching six hours. Like, I’m just not like, I’m sorry. Like I feel like and I, I know, I know people are sick of Marvel, but like. All right, so what was it?
00:14:33:12 – 00:15:02:45
Agent Palmer
All, Miss Marvel. Okay, this marvel comes after. Basically, everybody’s sick of all of the Avengers stuff. The MCU is overblown, and Miss Marvel comes out on Disney+. Miss Marvel is a great series. It should have been a movie, right? Captain in the Winter soldier or whatever. Falcon and the Winter soldier, six episodes or four episodes.
00:15:02:47 – 00:15:36:03
Agent Palmer
Again, decent series. Probably should have been a movie, right? I think we’re just trying to fill space and there’s no need for it. I there’s there’s no one in positions of power that are looking at anything other than the bottom line. So instead of, hey guys, this is we can release this on Disney+. But like, this would be better as a two hour movie.
00:15:36:08 – 00:16:03:57
Agent Palmer
Can you cut two hours out of this? Yes, probably. You know, like that’s possible. But they didn’t and they didn’t want to. And I feel like that’s a thing where like now, you know, it. I might like it. You’re not going to get me to watch it as a series. It’s just not something I’m. Going to take the time for.
00:16:03:57 – 00:16:20:50
Agent Palmer
Because the other the thing nobody talks about is we’re not comfortable with an end. Like, let’s be real about this. How many things would have been better with like, no sequel?
00:16:20:55 – 00:16:21:28
Hal Nathan
Oh, I.
00:16:21:29 – 00:16:35:33
Agent Palmer
Mean, you know, I mean, and the same thing goes for like a mini series that gets, oh, it did so well that we’re going to make six more episodes. So no, not going to go. You had a perfect six episode mini arc called Leave It Alone. Right.
00:16:35:38 – 00:16:36:14
Hal Nathan
It yeah.
00:16:36:21 – 00:17:05:20
Agent Palmer
I, I just think that we have lost sight of what the old Hollywood was probably better at. And when I say old Hollywood, I mean, well before you and me, where it’s like, we want to tell a good story. We want to make this a spectacle. We’re not trying to make a franchise. We’re just trying to entertain people for 90 minutes or whatever.
00:17:05:25 – 00:17:41:19
Agent Palmer
I, I, I think that, like the innovation now is not I don’t know where it’s going to come from. Like, right now, my, my favorite streaming service is Nebula because it’s creator owned and they allow creators to do things they wouldn’t be able to do otherwise. But it’s small. What? I want more from it. Yes, but am I okay not getting more for it?
00:17:41:19 – 00:18:07:42
Agent Palmer
Because I know everybody’s treated well and paid well, and that some people get to do things that they wouldn’t normally get to do. Yes, but I’m also a creator, so I can go behind the scenes and go, that’s okay, I’m not getting enough because I’m getting good stuff, and that’s important. But I think we’re just looking at it all wrong.
00:18:07:42 – 00:18:38:59
Agent Palmer
And I think, yeah, of course content is a bad word. I don’t create content. I mean, what are you? Well, I write a blog, I create a podcast, I edit other podcasts, but I don’t create content that’s that’s for other people, you know, that’s for people that want to churn it out. I don’t look at anything I do for pay or for pleasure as just get it done.
00:18:38:59 – 00:19:03:48
Agent Palmer
Like, no, right? Like what? Why do it then? You know, I’m, I’m lucky in the stuff that I get to create because most of it’s a passion project. The blog is once a week, the podcast is every two weeks, and I’ve basically future proofed it by being able to work ahead because I’m not trying to chase breaking news.
00:19:03:53 – 00:19:04:24
Hal Nathan
Right? Of course.
00:19:04:26 – 00:19:42:58
Agent Palmer
Which also means, as happens, I can get depressed and not feel like writing. But I’ve got the next ten posts already drafted, right? Like that’s fine. And we’re recording and I’m, I don’t know, six, eight, ten episodes recorded. I still need to buckle down and edit. But the hard part is done. Or depending on how I’m feeling, the hard part is done, you know?
00:19:43:04 – 00:20:13:59
Agent Palmer
Yeah. So I build in my ebbs and flows, but I don’t churn it out for the sake of it. Right. But it also goes back to how do you feel about what you create? Because I don’t know what I, I really think it would be great to have a statistic, but I can’t go back in time. But I would like to say I don’t really I don’t have any bad episodes.
00:20:13:59 – 00:20:41:23
Agent Palmer
There’s a couple like where the guest sound quality was not what I would like, and I spent hours trying to make it as good as I could. But in general, outside of those few episodes, there’s got to be like 2025, where after I stopped recording, I went, that’s a bad episode. But then I had listened to it back.
00:20:41:23 – 00:21:17:16
Agent Palmer
When I edit it and I go, but I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know what the problem with that was. Right. You know? And so there is that kind of like, I don’t know how much of it is momentary bias. I don’t know how much of it is just that kind of perfection creeping up where like, maybe all 25 of those episodes, I clicked the off record button and it was simply that I forgot to ask one follow up.
00:21:17:21 – 00:21:50:55
Agent Palmer
And that’s apparently all I was thinking about. And so it’s like, screwed up that one. And then, you know, you come back because you forget whatever you forgot to ask. Now that oh, look, when you edit your own stuff, you remember all the flubs and everything, it all comes back to you. But when you’ve edited 20 minutes of, 68 minute podcast and it’s good, and you get to that 29th minute when you forgot to ask to follow up and you go, yeah, but it doesn’t ruin it.
00:21:51:00 – 00:22:21:44
Agent Palmer
Okay. Well then so that moment bias I guess that’s recency bias. Like that’s that’s not me. But I can tell you it’s got to be at least 25 episodes. I’ve walked away from going like that was just crap. My wife has been here for all of them, I’m sure. Like she can attest to the fact that, like, there are moments when because I record at night, she’s usually in bed when I’m done, when I’ll come into the bedroom and be like, man, it was crap.
00:22:21:49 – 00:22:58:39
Agent Palmer
Now she can’t unless she can remember and pass out or write something down. She doesn’t know which ones were good or bad. When she listens to them in a few weeks when they release and I usually end up going, I don’t remember why I thought this was bad, but again, it’s that process and I think maybe this is important for you to know that, like I’m over 100 into this particular podcast and I still have that feeling after I hit record.
00:22:58:44 – 00:23:40:50
Agent Palmer
Before I get to the editing bay, which I guess is a way of saying just how important that editing bay really is. And I don’t know if that’s the safety net that we talked about from live or live to tape or if it’s space, like just this, the idea of time between I just finished that draft, I’m going to put it on a shelf and go outside and I’ll reach out and I’ll do the edit next week where I don’t remember what I just didn’t write versus what I did right.
00:23:40:50 – 00:24:08:40
Agent Palmer
Like, so there’s a lot of things in play here, but it’s a long way to say, like, there’s a lot of stuff that can go wrong in the moment, that the thing is happening. But when you have an editing process, it gives you space, it gives you time, it can breathe, you can grow, you know, like there’s all these things that happen, and then you come back to it and you go, there.
00:24:08:40 – 00:24:10:10
Agent Palmer
I wasn’t so bad.
00:24:10:14 – 00:24:26:33
Hal Nathan
You know, I, I mean, that space for me was everything I wanted. Oh, my God, I can’t I mean, it was you’re under the gun when you’re in school and it’s your job to do certain things and write a script, but you.
00:24:26:33 – 00:24:29:15
Agent Palmer
Still give yourself some space.
00:24:29:20 – 00:24:54:57
Hal Nathan
I, I feel like now that it’s been a few months, I’ve almost forgotten what it was like to write a line of dialog, be beyond upset, walk away and come back to it the next day and go, oh, all right, well, I’ll just do this instead and it works out. Or go down the line, write this whole thing, spend a week writing, you know, some big moment or something, and then going, oh, that was crap.
00:24:54:57 – 00:25:21:38
Hal Nathan
Like, what am I, one? That’s why on earth and like, you know, you have to sit there and remember that you’re doing it and progress is progress no matter what. And so getting that out was good and is good. And you know, I’m done now and I’m happy with the result. And that’s how it goes. And it’s almost weird thinking about that because that’s such a unique little bubble.
00:25:21:38 – 00:25:56:42
Hal Nathan
And then when you take it to the editing room, like you were saying, I after we shot, you know, our most students, after they shot the projects, they did not only a few people that I see step into the editing room immediately. And most of it was, you know, transcoding and preparing for the edit. Not a ton of people, at least in the who were shooting in the earlier slates, were putting together their, you know, rough cut immediately and then going, all right, well, let’s try, you know, let’s get to it and make the second cut in the third and fourth and get after it, which evidently was maybe not smart, because then
00:25:56:42 – 00:25:58:57
Hal Nathan
we were really under pressure and it gives me the deadline.
00:25:58:57 – 00:26:22:46
Agent Palmer
But yeah, but but I know, I don’t know, I don’t, I don’t I mean yeah, but a deadline, I mean look there’s no motivator like a deadline, but I also think there’s a, there’s an argument to be made that had everything happened and we just cut out the space in between. And it’s definitely not as good a project like that.
00:26:22:46 – 00:26:51:27
Agent Palmer
Ability to let it breathe, to step away from it for anything. And that I was not a smoker when I, when I had my corporate job, in marketing. But I used to take a walk all the time because it was like, I can’t stare at the screen anymore. I’m just I’m just going to remove myself from it, and and even 5 or 10 minutes for small little work.
00:26:51:27 – 00:27:21:23
Agent Palmer
Corporate things helps. But when you’ve been shooting for a week or five days or 72 hours, you need more than five minutes, right? Like you need to decompress. It’s not and you need space. And I think I have no problem saying it now. I think what as creatives and creators, the thing we need space from is the things we didn’t say.
00:27:21:32 – 00:27:52:25
Agent Palmer
We need space from our decisions. You chose to shoot this with a fisheye lens on the ground, looking up. That’s a decision you made not to shoot it from somewhere else. You need 24 hours, 48 hours a week to get away from the decision. So when you sit in the editing booth, you are in with what you have and not constantly thinking about the shot you didn’t do.
00:27:52:30 – 00:28:15:55
Agent Palmer
And for writing, it’s the same way you sit down with the draft that you just finished, and when you start to edit it, you’re immediately reminded of the words that you didn’t choose in the moment while you were writing it, which is not helpful to the editing process. This is where you need that space. I think it’s more for us to forget the road we didn’t take.
00:28:16:00 – 00:28:17:46
Hal Nathan
Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:17:49 – 00:28:44:16
Agent Palmer
You know, because that’s all you remember when you if if you turn it around immediately and you go, all right, well it’s to get back into this. It’s like, no, no, we need time to forget that then then we’ll be fine. Like, I think that’s, that’s that’s almost everything in every creative process. But I, I think it takes all of us time to learn that, because you learn that a lot by doing.
00:28:44:21 – 00:29:02:47
Agent Palmer
It’s the first time you step away and come back and it works that you go, oh, it. I still had to force it, but I was not looking at it for the last two days. You know, I actually took the weekend off or whatever. I mean that just opens this door of like I put it on a shelf.
00:29:02:52 – 00:29:12:14
Agent Palmer
It’s just the process. That’s one of the reasons I work so far ahead is because then I can, I can come back to this edit in a month.
00:29:12:19 – 00:29:13:50
Hal Nathan
Yeah. You create the space. Yeah.
00:29:14:03 – 00:29:35:38
Agent Palmer
And so I don’t know what this I don’t know what the end product of this episode sounds like if I just turned it around. Right. If I was like, all right, I’m just going to add this tomorrow. Like, that’s that’s not enough space. That’s not I’m still going to think of all the things I didn’t ask you. Right.
00:29:35:38 – 00:29:50:52
Agent Palmer
Or the things that when you asked me, I didn’t say right. That’s that’s horrible. So yeah, a horrible place you can’t create or mold or edit in that frame of mind.
00:29:50:56 – 00:29:52:36
Hal Nathan
At that point. Script it.
00:29:52:41 – 00:30:00:35
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Right. Like that’s that. Yeah. Yeah. And but even then, you know, you finish the script and you’re like, did I finish it? Then my good or done.
00:30:00:50 – 00:30:23:04
Hal Nathan
That’s, that’s the thing is you just at this point that would just be moving that process of space. You just be finished with that with that and instead, you know, it’s it’s for later, which, you know, but yeah, I guess that exists in every, every, you know, every, every step along the way needs you need to walk away.
00:30:23:06 – 00:30:23:58
Hal Nathan
So I definitely.
00:30:24:12 – 00:30:26:06
Agent Palmer
So I need to ask you this question. Right.
00:30:26:06 – 00:30:27:01
Hal Nathan
So yeah. Please.
00:30:27:12 – 00:30:36:44
Agent Palmer
I just spent you just spent 20 minutes the listening audience, whatever. Spent 20 minutes listening to me talk about process. Right.
00:30:36:51 – 00:30:41:11
Hal Nathan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:41:16 – 00:30:52:55
Agent Palmer
Pre-college. Are you interested in process at all? Not not necessarily just for movies, but just in general. Like, are you, like, oh, I’m kind of.
00:30:52:55 – 00:30:55:42
Hal Nathan
Am I like it like like habits driven like.
00:30:55:42 – 00:31:21:07
Agent Palmer
No. Just process. Like as far as, like, all right. I see a a play on. I mean, I look at video, sports and video games is the real way to do it, right? It’s like I saw, play action pass in a college football game. I can study how that came to be when I play Madden. Right?
00:31:21:07 – 00:31:45:35
Agent Palmer
Like, I might not do well, but I can see how everything moves, maybe even more so than instant replay, because I get to control it and I get to see where all the moving pieces are. And that’s just one example, but it’s also like, you know, I saw a movie, I want to know how that’s made. Or like, you know, were you interested in because I have a friend who’s a process guy.
00:31:45:36 – 00:32:09:09
Agent Palmer
He’ll introduce himself as a process guy. It’s always more interesting to know how the thing got made than to watch the thing almost for him. So like, obviously now you’re in it and we can talk about this. You’ve built things and you’ve, you’ve, you’ve started to create your own process. But like was you always interested in the process or is that as you’ve kind of come to film?
00:32:09:13 – 00:32:43:29
Hal Nathan
I definitely think with film, I’ve been more interested in the process, obviously. I mean, that’s an easy, you know, no should answer. And I guess I’ve always been involved in I’ve always I’ve always wanted to know why, okay. Why something is I guess that’s sort of process. In a way. It is. The need for an answer and a starting point and how we got somewhere.
00:32:43:29 – 00:32:53:29
Hal Nathan
So like when it came to, I don’t know, like, I was always interested in math, but I was never good at it.
00:32:53:38 – 00:32:54:42
Agent Palmer
Okay.
00:32:54:47 – 00:33:17:26
Hal Nathan
And I wanted to always know why we were doing things and what how something was applicable and but I think I wanted to know beyond these are the steps and this is the answer. Like I think I was always like, what are we doing? Not not like and not not just that question of like all houses, you know, going to apply when I’m, you know, buying chips at a, you know, convenience store.
00:33:17:26 – 00:33:45:38
Hal Nathan
It’s like, no, I just want to know where things come from. And unfortunately, that is not the focus necessarily of, you know, every class, especially math, when you’re taking, you know, whatever algebra, algebra to trigonometry or, you know, calculus or something, and they’re just kind of crammed and content and ready for a test. And you can get the answers, and it’s all answers.
00:33:45:38 – 00:34:15:11
Hal Nathan
And if you get all the answers, great, you got a good score. It’s like, that’s awesome. And sure, there’s you know, that’s important, obviously, but I definitely was always stuck thinking about why something was in order to inform the solution or answer. And that probably is why I liked storytelling and English classes and history classes and art classes and things that were more.
00:34:15:16 – 00:34:39:42
Agent Palmer
Well, that goes into the philosophy of it basically as well. Yeah, like it’s kind of like that extension of like, you know, it’s it’s the English art teacher that we all have one of usually, if you’re lucky, maybe 2 or 3 if you’re really lucky. That’s like, all right, you painted a picture. Now why did you paint like they ask you the question that you’re always asking and.
00:34:39:46 – 00:34:57:09
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And the first time you get it, you’re stumped because you’re like, well, I’m supposed to be the one asking that question. Like, I’m supposed to be the one asking why? And now all of a sudden I wrote this short story and this English teacher is like, well, why did that happen? And you’re like, but I don’t think anybody would.
00:34:57:14 – 00:35:00:26
Agent Palmer
I didn’t think anybody would ask me. I don’t know. Yeah, it’s pretty.
00:35:00:26 – 00:35:08:33
Hal Nathan
Much pretty much I it’s, it’s when it’s flipped on you, there’s a little more weight.
00:35:08:37 – 00:35:09:18
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:35:09:22 – 00:35:26:40
Hal Nathan
And with that, a little more understanding and so, you know, the first question, if I’m writing, the first question I’m asking is I want to tell a story. And that’s the first question that I’m, you know, now going through school, that’s the first question you’re kind of taught to ask is, what’s the point? Why are you doing this?
00:35:26:40 – 00:35:58:23
Hal Nathan
What that. But I think I always, as a kid was curious and wanted to know what the point was or why things happen always. And the routine that I so desperately hold on to that is now gone from my life. I, I rejected it probably sometimes when it came to things like math class that were just start stop and other things related to that.
00:35:58:28 – 00:36:18:00
Hal Nathan
So I guess, to bring it back, I mean, I guess I am a process person and I know that that helps me, and it helps me think and problem solve and understand. Yeah. So I look for that, I suppose.
00:36:18:11 – 00:36:52:30
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I mean, the, the other piece to like podcasting, filmmaking, moviemaking, storytelling is we are always better with limited resources. Don’t let anyone ever tell you like, oh, more money is going to be better. So I don’t know that that’s true. More time is going to be better. Well, as you just heard us discuss for the last, however long like more time away is better.
00:36:52:30 – 00:37:42:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah, but more time, not necessarily better. Right. And so I, I think of all right. It’s been. Oh this is going to test the old memory. Maybe a decade maybe 2013 2015, 2016. It’s been at least eight years, maybe ten since I wrote my last true short story. Like an actual factual, I’ve written some essays that haven’t made it to the blog for publish, or like some things that are on a shelf that I’m not sure what to do with, but my last true short story I wrote on Lunch Break from my corporate job at a diner that I went to have lunch at it specifically to get some writing done.
00:37:42:56 – 00:38:10:46
Agent Palmer
And there was one constraint on it. It was it was, it was when everybody was doing those writing challenges and it was the one, two, three, four challenge. And you had to write a short story with 1234 words. That’s it. You get a word count. That’s it. And I’m at the diner with my earbuds in on the phone with a buddy of mine going, I just don’t have anything to write about.
00:38:10:50 – 00:38:35:29
Agent Palmer
Like, I just want like, the word count is not enough of a structure because I can still write about anything. So we were talking. We were talking. And he’s like, maybe you should write about. I don’t even know how it came about. Actually, I, I already did a whole episode about how it came about, but somehow I figured out what the topic was going to be.
00:38:35:34 – 00:38:57:47
Agent Palmer
And once I had the topic and the and the word count constraint, then I was able to just write. Then you finish and you go, that’s 1300 words. It’s time to edit. And then I’m good. I like I’ve accomplished the mission right. Or maybe it was, you know, 1100 words. Time to add something. Right?
00:38:57:52 – 00:39:21:55
Agent Palmer
But he gave me the prompt, and somebody else had given me the constraint of words. But I don’t think that story, and I’m proud of that story. I don’t think that story gets written without both of those constraints, like the constraint was. He and I were trying to come up with the topic, and he was just saying, well, how about you just write about this or that?
00:39:21:59 – 00:39:44:07
Agent Palmer
And it was like, oh, but that other thing, I think I can write it. Yeah, okay, good. I’ll do that. And I have a word count. All right, let’s go. Because now I have an end there, a concrete end. You’re going to start this. But after the first word, that’s one word down. Right. And now you. It was a, a phrase, a terminology or whatever.
00:39:44:12 – 00:40:11:23
Agent Palmer
So I didn’t really have, like to world build. I just had to tell this story. And so it’s one of those things where it’s like, all right, those constraints allowed me to write it. I haven’t really written a short story start to finish since, and now we’re, you know, if we want to be more generous with the timing.
00:40:11:23 – 00:40:52:00
Agent Palmer
I mean, it’s all there. It’s whatever episode I premiered that on for this show. Because I wanted to share it again. And I had the audio. I was like, all right, well, that’s fine, but we’ll say it’s been a decade now. Like the other things I write, I read a book. Here’s my review again. That’s concrete. That’s you’re writing about this topic, this book and my blog philosophy is you tell the story till it’s done, but I don’t I don’t need to aim for a word count.
00:40:52:05 – 00:41:20:30
Agent Palmer
I’m not trying to. Oh, it’s got to be. If it’s not, I don’t know, 2000 words. It’s not count. No, I don’t care. I you know, I’m sharing with you. I read this book. It’s good, it’s bad, it’s indifferent. But this may or may not be interesting for you. And so for the creative side, I almost feel like I need a jumpstart with some kind of constraint.
00:41:20:35 – 00:41:42:05
Agent Palmer
And maybe it’s because I’ve been blogging for ten years and it’s like. So everything’s always started out with an idea like, a topic, a book, a genre, you know, like it’s very specific, but I can’t, you know, I’ll if if I don’t have that.
00:41:42:10 – 00:42:05:02
Agent Palmer
I’ll sit down at a blank page and then ten minutes later, get up from a blank page, right. Like I need to sit down with an idea I’m not going to. And I can write out ideas. That’s that’s a whole different process. It’s just it’s a whole different thing. And then you end up with a thing of ideas that you never write about because you just wrote them down.
00:42:05:02 – 00:42:37:42
Agent Palmer
And that was that. Right? Like, yeah, I’ve been there, been there. But yeah, I feel like those constraints, whatever they are, budgetary word count, time, space, even, that’s where everything really happens. In it, you know, for whatever it is. Right. Like I’m, I’m working in an audio space where I refuse to let an episode go over 90 minutes.
00:42:37:47 – 00:43:00:35
Agent Palmer
Which is why this is your second appearance on this show. Yeah. Like, you know, so. But it’s things like that where it’s like. All right, well, I’ll just we’ll keep rolling and I’ll do a second episode, and I’ve done that before. Like, this is not my first single recording that spawned two episodes, right? But I’m used to that, and I’m okay with that.
00:43:00:35 – 00:43:24:04
Agent Palmer
And I’m not. You know, it goes back to the editing thing. I’m not going to turn around and go, well, I guess I gotta cut it. So yeah, I can cut it in half. We’ve done two every, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s that kind of thing. But you again, you learn that as you go along. And my constraint of 90 minutes I try and aim for 75.
00:43:24:09 – 00:43:55:39
Agent Palmer
But sometimes they’re longer, sometimes they’re shorter. I don’t have a minimum, you know, like it’s fine, but those are self-imposed. But I think they’re important because otherwise you and I could just talk for four hours and I could just release it. But that doesn’t seem, I don’t know, there’s something less sporting about it. There’s something less about it, you know, than just like, oh, all right, stop upload.
00:43:55:44 – 00:44:05:15
Agent Palmer
You know, no editing. You know, like, there are pieces to this that make it artistic. And I think those are, those are important pieces.
00:44:05:20 – 00:44:07:52
Hal Nathan
I mean it’s like what you talked about with the content stuff.
00:44:07:56 – 00:44:08:52
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:44:08:57 – 00:44:33:01
Hal Nathan
We, we release four hours of talking. All right. A lot of content a lot of stuff. And then you do it again and again and again and again versus what you’re saying about really putting together a nice story that is not as long or not as you know or is. And, you know, it’s the 87 minute movie. The 90 minute movie.
00:44:33:01 – 00:44:33:54
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
00:44:33:59 – 00:44:45:53
Hal Nathan
You know, and there’s a ton of value in that. And just being able to sit down and say, this is a moment in time and we’re going to appreciate it. And then we’ll move on, and then there will be another one.
00:44:45:58 – 00:45:13:30
Agent Palmer
That’s, that’s that’s the other, forgotten like child of all of this is like, it’s okay that you don’t get a sequel, you’re just going to get another brand new movie to experience. Like what? There’s nothing wrong with that. This is why. Yeah, I pay for a minimum number of services. I don’t pay for every service. Because why?
00:45:13:32 – 00:45:51:38
Agent Palmer
I don’t want to throw my money away and I can’t watch everything anyway. But my go to outside of my love for Nebula, outside of Nebula, my go tos YouTube. Before I check Netflix and Disney, you know, yeah, there’s going to be some good releases on there from maybe actors or directors. I like, but I found some very compelling small creators making good stuff on YouTube that I, I like as much as the Netflix thing or the Disney thing.
00:45:51:43 – 00:46:16:32
Agent Palmer
So why should I limit myself to be like, what? What I pay for it? Like, that’s fine. And everybody’s like, oh, like I don’t have Apple. People are like, oh, you’d really like this show or that show? It’s like, yeah, maybe I would. But like, I’ve watched a ton of things that you’ve never heard of. Oh no.
00:46:16:32 – 00:47:03:17
Agent Palmer
Like it’s just there again. And, this is the thing that you’ll get used to as you further yourself in any creative pursuit writing, editing, podcasting, movie making, TV, if you’re creating something, you have less time to consume it. It’s just you have to make the time to consume it. Well, I have a sneaking suspicion that I’m going to be watching a Marx brothers movie soon because I’ve been meaning like it’s been gnawing at me, that it’s been years since I’ve watched one, but that’s going to take the place of some new movie because I’m spending all my time editing or writing or doing something else.
00:47:03:17 – 00:47:25:14
Agent Palmer
I don’t have just unlimited time. All right, so that means that when I go to a social gathering, if you’re like, did you catch that new thing on whatever? No, I, I watched Duck Soup again for the hundredth time because I really wanted to, you know, it’s. Yeah, okay. It’s fine. But like, these things are, you know, I bring up duck soup, but, like, could be coconuts.
00:47:25:17 – 00:47:47:34
Agent Palmer
Or it could be like, I still love 2008 Iron Man. I love real genius. I love, like, these are movies that are like, I love twister, like the original. I haven’t seen the new one yet because I don’t have the time. But like, these are movies that I return to because they’re foundational. I love The Fifth Element. It’s so big.
00:47:47:39 – 00:48:15:02
Agent Palmer
We don’t make movies that big anymore. And when he did in Valerian, everybody panned it because it was too big. It’s no, we should. If you don’t like the movie, you don’t like the movie. But don’t tell me it’s too big. We want our movies to be big. Don’t tell me it’s the movies. Two grand in scope. When the Super Bowl is the most watched football game of the year, because it’s so grand.
00:48:15:11 – 00:48:52:43
Agent Palmer
Don’t tell me that your art can’t be grand two. Like there’s so many when you’re when you’re creating it and you hear all these talking points that make no sense. It’s just frustrating because it feels like the people that we are as creators, it feels like our clubs getting smaller and smaller, because what I just said makes sense to you because you’ve created something before, and a lot of people that are listening right now, because I spent a lot of time in my outro telling people to make their thing, have made things.
00:48:52:48 – 00:49:20:37
Agent Palmer
But it also means that when people don’t like something and they’ve never made something, they’re excuses for not liking it are vastly different than what you and I would take away from it. And those are often the loudest voices on the internet and the loudest voices in the room. And it’s also like, no, that movie wasn’t bad. It’s just that the three people that hated it were the loudest in the room.
00:49:20:42 – 00:49:21:28
Hal Nathan
00:49:21:32 – 00:50:00:08
Agent Palmer
I don’t know. I don’t know how we changed the discussion. You know, we just came off an election year where I would argue our media literacy is probably the lowest it’s ever been. But I think that that extends beyond political ads and political hyperbole into and news in general, into the way people view film and TV and podcast.
00:50:00:08 – 00:50:29:15
Agent Palmer
Like it’s just they don’t know what they’re consuming, whatever’s comfortable. And again, I just mentioned a whole bunch of old movies I watch all the time. I go back to comfortable is fine, but I still have a very specific reason why I may go back to all of those things. And I think a lot of people just get comfortable and being comfortable, I don’t think is a good enough reason to go back to something.
00:50:29:20 – 00:50:45:08
Agent Palmer
So I, I hope we get better because your career is going to be very short if it doesn’t change soon. Right. Like, I mean, it’s it’s it’s 2025. We don’t know what the future holds other than.
00:50:45:13 – 00:51:27:33
Agent Palmer
We’re currently in a climate where making a movie and not releasing it is cheaper than not making a movie or making a movie and releasing it. And so in that logistical conundrum, I just, you know, wash my hands and go, I’ll make my own thing that, I don’t know what else we can do, but I, you know, I wish you all the luck as you navigate this because, like, like I’ve toyed with video and I may continue to dabble, but I found a, like, a soft spot.
00:51:27:37 – 00:51:45:21
Agent Palmer
For edited audio. And that’s where I’m going to stay. Yeah, I’ll probably continue to mess with video like that’s that’s not my first. And I don’t know where you’re going to end up. So I’m kind of excited for you. You get to try a ton of stuff.
00:51:45:26 – 00:52:01:58
Hal Nathan
Has to be fun because it’ll be fun. It’ll be exactly what you said. It’ll be me doing a bunch of different things in the next few years. And, we’ll check in and you’ll say, what have you been up to? And I’ll say, well, things have changed, or I’m doing this or that or whatever. And you know, we’ll see, we’ll see.
00:52:01:58 – 00:52:02:53
Hal Nathan
But it’s exciting.
00:52:02:58 – 00:52:04:39
Agent Palmer
Yeah. That it is.
00:52:04:44 – 00:52:30:41
Hal Nathan
Yeah. But it’s interesting to think about how, you know, how film and television and all this stuff is going to be where it’s going, you know, where it’s going to go, what it’s going to look like in ten years, in five years and two years, you know, because it’s changing quick and I mean, just the way that we watched, the way that we consume media changed because of Covid.
00:52:30:46 – 00:52:52:02
Hal Nathan
And that was a huge thing. And you know, I, my parents talked about, they hadn’t been to the movie theater. Obviously, they didn’t go during the pandemic, but they hadn’t been after that time passed. They didn’t they didn’t go for probably a year or two.
00:52:52:07 – 00:52:59:08
Agent Palmer
I still have the after and I’ll go I’ll go one step further. I think it had been.
00:52:59:13 – 00:53:28:06
Agent Palmer
Maybe Avengers Endgame. Yeah. Or actually the last Star Wars trilogy. Trilogy ended after that. So that might have been the last one I watched. But like, I have some good art house cinemas, but they don’t. But you get one night to watch an independent feature sometimes, and if you’re busy, if you have a family, like you’re just not.
00:53:28:06 – 00:53:33:43
Agent Palmer
So if I wanted to do like independents and I said, well, there’s no tentpole movies I want to see anymore.
00:53:33:48 – 00:53:34:33
Hal Nathan
Right?
00:53:34:38 – 00:54:00:20
Agent Palmer
That’s fine. But like, I can’t get out on a Saturday night for that one showing of that one movie at exactly 715, as opposed to like, oh, well, if it was on at ten or whatever. So I’ll just wait for it on streaming. And it’s not a convenience thing, but it really is because it’s like, all right, this is getting harder and harder to fit in.
00:54:00:25 – 00:54:17:38
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And do you want me to watch it? I mean, I guess, how do you want me to watch your movie or not? Like, I guess, you know, like, do you know what I mean? Like, I know there are, purists and I’m friends with quite a few of them that are like, you have to see it on the big screen at the Bay.
00:54:17:49 – 00:54:20:34
Hal Nathan
Sure, sure, sure.
00:54:20:38 – 00:54:44:28
Agent Palmer
But the question is not how I’m going to watch it. The question is, do you want me to watch your movie or not? All right. If you want me to watch it, I may have to watch it at 1:00 am when I finish all my other work. Sure. Are you okay with that? I don’t make this podcast for people to listen to only when they’re in the car.
00:54:44:28 – 00:55:16:54
Agent Palmer
Or like, only when they’re exercising or only when they’re sitting down doing nothing on a Sunday afternoon over like an old school radio, you know, like I, I don’t whatever you’re doing right now is how you’re consuming this. I feel like more movies need to be okay with that. And I think a lot of purists and a lot of filmmakers are relying on the purists to be like, no, you have to go to the theater.
00:55:16:59 – 00:55:47:42
Agent Palmer
It’s like, well, I think your ship has sailed. I think everything’s changed. It’s not done changing. I think that’s maybe very important to say, but I don’t I don’t know where it ends and neither does anyone else. So until then, you know, it just boils down to, do you want me to watch it or not? Oh, by the way, Mr. Movie Maker, don’t make 12 movies in a year, I can’t.
00:55:47:42 – 00:56:06:59
Agent Palmer
Well, you know what I mean. Like, this is the other, you know, it’s the same thing. Like you can’t. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think they’re all their own worst enemy. I don’t know. There’s no, there’s no simple answer. I do still believe. I kind of still believe though, that less would be more right now.
00:56:07:04 – 00:56:09:18
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
00:56:09:22 – 00:56:24:20
Agent Palmer
Just in general, not just runtimes, but, like, theatrical releases, television series, all of it, like less would be kind of more. We’re not we’re not there yet though.
00:56:24:25 – 00:56:32:15
Hal Nathan
No, I guess not.
00:56:32:20 – 00:56:52:16
Agent Palmer
So before I get into it, I have one very important clarification to make. I misspoke when I said that the more you edit, the easier it becomes. It’s much more accurate to say that the more you edit, the more comfortable it becomes. I don’t know that it’s ever easy, especially when it’s your own work. You’re editing. Now onto the rest.
00:56:52:30 – 00:57:26:08
Agent Palmer
Why are we trying to fill space with a series when it could be a movie? Why aren’t we comfortable with an ending? These are questions for longer conversations, but what I would like to cover is this creators see the world in a very different way than those who don’t create. It’s just that simple. And based on that notion, at minimum, it seems those loud voices on the internet must be consumers, not creators, because their lowest common denominator rhetoric about projects dismisses any semblance of respect for the work put into those projects.
00:57:26:13 – 00:57:53:28
Agent Palmer
Or is this a media literacy failure on both sides, the creator and the consumer in terms of the churn and burn? Some creators, meaning some very big studios aren’t looking at these pieces of art for what they are. And so in devaluing them, they allow the consumer to also devalue them, maybe even further. This completely ignores the talented writers, artists, actors, editors, and creatives who build the thing.
00:57:53:33 – 00:58:19:47
Agent Palmer
But that’s probably also something for another day or many, many more days. Just remember this I create this show. I host, edit, write, and produce. This show. Hal has created, edited, scripted, directed, and acted in videos of varying lengths and types. We are two humans who created things, and we are just two of many people who create things that you listen to, watch, read, and otherwise consume.
00:58:19:52 – 00:58:42:08
Agent Palmer
Even if a big production company or corporate entity is footing the bill or not, a human like Hal or myself was behind it in many, many positions. So be nice. You wouldn’t like a world with no art. Thanks for listening to The Palmer Files episode 146. And now for the official business. The Palmer Files releases every two weeks on Tuesdays.
00:58:42:08 – 00:59:00:11
Agent Palmer
If you’re still listening, I encourage you to join the discussion. You can find all related ways to contact my guest, Hal and myself in the show notes. You can visit Hal’s website Hal nathan.com where you can see what he’s been up to. The music for this episode was provided by Henno Heitur. Email and comments can be sent to this show at The Palmer Files at gmail.com.
00:59:00:12 – 00:59:08:27
Agent Palmer
And remember, you’re home for all things Agent Palmer is Agent palmer.com.
00:59:08:31 – 00:59:15:01
Agent Palmer
And.
00:59:15:06 – 00:59:22:45
Agent Palmer
You.
00:59:22:50 – 00:59:46:08
Agent Palmer
Will see.
00:59:46:12 – 00:59:48:48
Agent Palmer
Me.
00:59:48:52 – 00:59:50:57
Agent Palmer
All right. How do you have one final question for me?
00:59:51:02 – 00:59:58:13
Hal Nathan
I do, first thing I noticed with your studio setup in the background, you have two footballs.
00:59:58:13 – 00:59:59:37
Agent Palmer
I do, yeah.
00:59:59:42 – 01:00:05:25
Hal Nathan
What is that about? Were you player? Are you a fan? Whose are those? Are they signed? I, I’m a sports guy.
01:00:05:25 – 01:00:28:16
Agent Palmer
I you know what I don’t I don’t think they’re signed. Okay I am and I never played I was in the band. I got yelled at for paying attention to the football game. And I’m in high school marching band. Yeah, it was me, right? I was in pep band, and, I was I was the loudmouth in the pep band that tried to get a technical foul, called on myself.
01:00:28:16 – 01:00:56:48
Agent Palmer
Like, I came very close. I got I got yelled at by vice principals and principals. Never referees. Right. Like that. Close. So the two footballs behind me. One I’ve had for quite a while. And that is the Boise State Fiesta Bowl win over Oklahoma. Undefeated season. Football. And that one I’ve had for quite a while.
01:00:56:52 – 01:01:29:34
Agent Palmer
My father was in tourism and I followed him into it for a while. But before I got to tourism, he had won a packet, from Boise. That was after years after the Fiesta Bowl, but it contained the football and like a Boise State mug from the championship season and some other stuff. And I remember, you know, I was part of that generation that went home after college and spent a little too much time there.
01:01:29:34 – 01:01:53:36
Agent Palmer
But like, I was living with my parents post-college when that game happened. So I was watching that game in the living room as Boise State’s coming back and this, probable victory, like, out of my mind because I’m a big college football guy, but I just pick who I don’t really have a team, right? I just like college football.
01:01:53:36 – 01:02:14:30
Agent Palmer
So I was rooting for the underdog. I was rooting against Oklahoma. I yeah, well, at the time, no one knew Boise State, right? Like they were. This was their calling card on. So I that game as that game’s happening I’m just like my parents are asleep upstairs. Like I know I’m like 20 something, but like you have to be quiet.
01:02:14:30 – 01:02:31:19
Agent Palmer
It doesn’t matter how exciting the thing is. And so, you know, that was so I think my father just bid on it, and he happened to win or put in for a raffle, and he happened to win, and I, I ended up with the football in the mug. Nice. Over my other shoulder.
01:02:31:24 – 01:02:31:44
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
01:02:31:55 – 01:03:08:52
Agent Palmer
Is, a, a Toronto Argonauts CFL championship football. That’s a mistake. And okay, what we’ll talk about is the Toronto Argonauts are a CFL team, and on it are listed all of the championship years up through 2024, but not including 2024 when they won the Gray Cup last year. So this only goes up to 2022, which was the last one they won when that was printed.
01:03:08:57 – 01:03:27:36
Agent Palmer
Gotcha. And that was given to me by my aunt and uncle, who live in Toronto and have Argos season tickets. And that is I do have a rooting interest. I did finally pick a CFL team and the Argos were going to be it. And so they, they because they have two season tickets, I think they got two footballs and I ended up with one.
01:03:27:48 – 01:03:45:59
Agent Palmer
However, this is a mistake because this football is the same size as the other football. Canadian footballs are not the same as American footballs. And so it’s it’s the same size, even though it should be slightly, larger in the middle.
01:03:46:03 – 01:03:50:26
Hal Nathan
Is it are they Canadian footballs are supposed to be. They’re larger. Yeah.
01:03:50:31 – 01:04:00:34
Agent Palmer
Or wider in the middle. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then what, you, What you can’t see because my big head is my my Orioles. I see that. So that’s, I.
01:04:00:34 – 01:04:02:47
Hal Nathan
Saw the the Orioles pennant.
01:04:02:52 – 01:04:34:33
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then I also have, Yeah, I the pennant from 83 when they last won a championship. And I have, the Cal Ripken Wheaties and, classic Carlos and some other stuff. Yeah. No, I mean, I, I could go off on sports for a long time. I feel like, if you’re a sports guy and an artist of any stature, I think you’ll do very well, because I always tell people that, you know, everybody makes fun of people for, like, liking sports at a certain point.
01:04:34:38 – 01:04:44:20
Agent Palmer
Especially sports people. Oh, you mentioned lacrosse. I always watch the Final Four, you know, every Memorial Day weekend.
01:04:44:24 – 01:04:44:53
Hal Nathan
Oh, yeah.
01:04:44:53 – 01:05:04:40
Agent Palmer
Sure. You know, and that comes in handy while I’m also like, yeah, but I also want to watch, like, the Indy race, like, I, I, I love sports in general, but I also think it’s helped me get through life because there’s always going to be a sports fan in the room. And if you’re well-rounded, just check the box score.
01:05:04:40 – 01:05:23:08
Agent Palmer
It’s fine. You know, it doesn’t matter where you are. I don’t like the NFL, but I watch the NFL so I can talk to other people about the NFL. It’s fine. Yeah. But, yeah. No, I, those are. That’s the story of the. And they I think they are the only two footballs in my house.
01:05:23:13 – 01:05:30:03
Hal Nathan
That’s it. The football, the college football and the mistake. Canadian football that is not larger in the middle.
01:05:30:07 – 01:05:30:45
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
01:05:30:50 – 01:05:33:50
Hal Nathan
That’s weird. Have you thrown a Canadian football?
01:05:33:55 – 01:05:37:54
Agent Palmer
I, I feel like I have, but not for a very long time.
01:05:37:54 – 01:05:42:15
Hal Nathan
And it’s harder. Is it like, is it a difficult I mean, I don’t have.
01:05:42:15 – 01:06:02:49
Agent Palmer
They, they adjust. Right. Like I feel like. So, there are Americans that have done well there, Warren Moon and Doug Flutie, I guess two guys that have done well in both leagues. So while it’s not fair to, you know, maybe compare everybody because they were but like, I feel like it’s just something you get used to just.
01:06:02:49 – 01:06:20:01
Agent Palmer
Yeah. You know, just like when in gym class you’re shooting hoops and like there’s 12 balls in play and it’s like, well, this one’s got a little bit more air and this one has way too much air. And you just kind of get used to it as you go along, but I don’t. Yeah, I, I only ever played for fun.
01:06:20:01 – 01:06:24:29
Agent Palmer
I never played for like organized but.
01:06:24:29 – 01:06:41:08
Hal Nathan
Yeah, yeah. No. Yeah, yeah. No I didn’t either. I never I was always interested in football but it was a, there was no way my, both of my uncles were football players. And then David who you know, went off into he did a lot of rugby stuff. Yeah, yeah. David.
01:06:41:08 – 01:06:51:28
Agent Palmer
Who makes fun of me because I’m like, yeah, but I, I prefer sevens. And he’s like, yeah, I’ll get out of here. I was like, I don’t know what to tell you. I prefer sevens.
01:06:51:32 – 01:07:12:22
Hal Nathan
Yeah. Stop it. Yep yep yep yep yep yeah yeah. That’s the guy. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. He he I mean, he got into he was a big football player and then obviously rugby and and I do remember him asking me if I was ever going to play football, but this was when I was, you know, the short, scrawny kid who barely was getting into lacrosse.
01:07:12:22 – 01:07:34:56
Hal Nathan
I mean, I played baseball, and I like baseball a lot. I don’t I stopped playing baseball for a little bit because I was I was always had like a lot of energy, and I needed to run and baseball. And that’s fortunately that option. It’s just that it’s a little slow. And I love the sport, and I’ve gotten into it recently and having, I mean, a lot of my friends are into baseball too.
01:07:34:56 – 01:07:53:02
Hal Nathan
So I end up watching it and I don’t know, I mean, like, you know, I remember it from playing Little League and stuff, and it was a blast. But, yeah, I guess I then decided lacrosse was the answer, being the small kid. And, you know, instead of baseball, I’m going to get whacked with a metal pole. That’s a great idea.
01:07:53:02 – 01:08:01:46
Hal Nathan
Which that still was. I mean, she’s every once in a while you get a you get a tough bruise.
01:08:01:51 – 01:08:10:27
Agent Palmer
Yeah. Look, I, I, I never I would have, I would have tried out for the team had my high school had one but I.
01:08:10:27 – 01:08:11:21
Hal Nathan
Oh they don’t even have one.
01:08:11:21 – 01:08:30:36
Agent Palmer
No, no but I, I know I, I went to high school in northeastern Pennsylvania, my dad but I knew about lacrosse because my dad grew up in Baltimore. So like, I kind of knew about lacrosse in a way that no one else did. And when in high school, they would pull out the fake plastic sticks.
01:08:30:41 – 01:08:31:21
Hal Nathan
Yeah.
01:08:31:26 – 01:08:45:48
Agent Palmer
Yeah, I brought in a real stick. And there was the only time that the gym teacher liked me, because I would bring in a real stick and and just throw back and forth with him with a real stick while everybody was using the plastic sticks.
01:08:45:53 – 01:08:47:58
Hal Nathan
Those little, like, shovels. Yeah, those were the worst.
01:08:47:58 – 01:09:18:57
Agent Palmer
Yeah. And so, and then, ironically, the guy who one of my first jobs was at a, like, gaming store, and the guy who owned it was also a track coach, but he also came from, like, not a lacrosse background, but he had a lacrosse stick. And in order to keep me in shape in the summer, we would basically get one of those old two gallon Gatorade and put it in the middle of a field, and we would just guard each other.
01:09:19:01 – 01:09:38:31
Agent Palmer
And you only got a drink if you knocked the ball over with the Gatorade, over with the ball, which, by the way, is harder to do at the beginning when it’s full than it is at the end. And so, like I, I still have these like, weird, like flashes of like, yeah, maybe it could have been a lacrosse thing, but it just it wasn’t an option for me.
01:09:38:36 – 01:09:55:59
Agent Palmer
And that’s fine because again, also small scrawny kid, there’s only so much you can do. But look, I’m always on to talk sports, like. Yeah, I mean, there are very few sports I don’t like. So.
01:09:55:59 – 01:10:04:56
Hal Nathan
Yeah. You started you mentioned NASCAR, right? That’s beyond my I mean, I barely know baseball. I’m just getting back into it. NASCAR, I mean, right, I think you said, what do.
01:10:04:56 – 01:10:33:16
Agent Palmer
You know, I said, Indy, but I watch NASCAR, I watch. Yeah, yeah. For me, I got into all the motorsports, through either family or from other things. Yeah. And I think baseball is the key. If you think baseball is interesting and I do, then it’s really hard to say something to somebody that NASCAR is boring because there’s as much strategy in it.
01:10:33:21 – 01:10:54:41
Agent Palmer
Like when you get past the they just go around in a circle versus when you get past the, well, you’re just waiting for somebody to hit the ball. Yeah. The strategy beyond that, it’s not the same, but it’s equal. Like it’s still there. Yeah. And so that’s kind of where you go like all right. Well it’s all and this is the other reason I don’t watch so many movies and watch so many TV.
01:10:54:50 – 01:11:14:23
Agent Palmer
There’s always a sports thing on. Yeah, I like soccer too. And it’s always a season somewhere. Right. Like it’s just, you know, the only thing I don’t think it was regular season hockey and regular season basketball because half the leagues make the playoffs and I only ever tune in for the playoffs. And that’s just my complain about that stuff.
01:11:14:33 – 01:11:21:02
Agent Palmer
But otherwise I’ll watch anything. Yeah, and I’ll talk about anything.
01:11:21:07 – 01:11:43:29
Hal Nathan
That’s funny. That is exactly what I probably was thinking as a kid was. Now I like baseball because I’m in it for the strategy. I’m not playing it, I don’t care. Yeah, it’s a good sport as a kid, you know, just having a ton of energy and being hyped up on sugar and sitting in a classroom all day and then going out and trying to play baseball.
01:11:43:29 – 01:11:57:57
Hal Nathan
And I’m waiting for somebody to hit, oh my God, I couldn’t stand it. So that’s then I was like, all right, I got to try something else. And my neighbor plays across from my, my good friend played the cross and we had those, you know, shovel plastic sticks that you were talking about to. Yeah. And it was kind of fun.
01:11:57:57 – 01:12:17:30
Hal Nathan
And the teacher was and you know, you know, you’re always running around. And I was like, all right, well that’s pretty cool. And so I borrowed, you know, my neighbor’s gear, sign up for a camp. And like the first day, I was like, learn the basics. And one of the coaches, it was like a, you know, camp for kids who were obviously just starting the sport.
01:12:17:35 – 01:12:31:38
Hal Nathan
And the guy was like, have you ever you ever played before? And I was like, no, this is my first time. And he’s like, oh geez, okay, all right, fine, let’s do this. And then they took us all so and we learned actually how to play. And then we got back into the groups and figured it out. It was a it was it was a ton of fun and there was nonstop movement.
01:12:31:38 – 01:12:54:05
Hal Nathan
But I do remember the first time, getting hit and that was not pleasant. And I was close to walking away at that point because, yeah, scrawny kid. And coming from baseball, where, I mean, you know, I was worried about I remember there was a kid who was obviously older than all of us, and it was like during little it was Little League.
01:12:54:05 – 01:13:12:42
Hal Nathan
He was on some team that was not great, but he was the best player and he was huge. And he threw crazy fast balls. And we’re all sitting there shivering, waiting to get up to the plate. And I was next. I was on deck and one of my friends, she gets hit in the face.
01:13:12:56 – 01:13:13:45
Agent Palmer
Oh, okay.
01:13:13:45 – 01:13:26:14
Hal Nathan
With the ball. It was awful. Awful. And the kid was, of course, you know, he’s a nice guy. Came over, apologize. But it was, you know, a horrible thing. And then I’m sitting up there next and my feet are, like, at the edge of the bike. And it’s like trying.
01:13:26:19 – 01:13:27:41
Agent Palmer
To stand in the batter’s box.
01:13:27:45 – 01:13:28:12
Hal Nathan
I said.
01:13:28:15 – 01:13:29:19
Agent Palmer
Can I get out of this?
01:13:29:24 – 01:13:39:44
Hal Nathan
I was like, I was basically, I mean, every two seconds it was somebody saying, all right, move it. Move in a little closer, stand at the edge of the batter’s box. And I was like, no way, absolutely not doing that. So getting hit by a pitch was.
01:13:39:44 – 01:14:02:59
Agent Palmer
Like, I, I had that in practice where one of my best friends was the catcher. And the, the, our pitcher was one of the bigger pitchers and like I, I don’t know exactly how it happened but like a fast ball hit my buddy’s knee and it was practice. So it’s not like he was full pads. And it was just like I’m glad he’s on our team.
01:14:02:59 – 01:14:24:09
Agent Palmer
But like I don’t want to go up for batting practice when he’s pitching. Like it’s just like that every like it’s funny. Like, I feel like everybody who’s done Little League has that story of like. And either that’s when I walked away or like that’s kind of like where the end was like just takes one of those, like, it’s not a contact sport, but it doesn’t make it any less scary when you’re younger.
01:14:24:14 – 01:14:47:09
Hal Nathan
No, of course not. Oh my God, that was I mean, that was a huge I’ll never forget that. That was crazy. And then we I think that was my first year of like Little League when people started taking it seriously. And then the next year we had a pretty good team and we won. And that was awesome. And for whatever reason, we finish that season, it was great.
01:14:47:13 – 01:15:07:31
Hal Nathan
And then you were supposed to then move on to like the next level majors or whatever that was. Yeah. And they had all new teams and this and that. And you had tryouts and the tryouts were ridiculous. It was a bunch of people, like, they brought you into the high school gym and we weren’t even, you know, we were still I think this was fifth grade was probably the fifth or sixth grade.
01:15:07:31 – 01:15:07:51
Hal Nathan
We were yeah.
01:15:07:56 – 01:15:17:04
Agent Palmer
Moving on to the next. It’s the weird, like you’re still in Little League, so you can’t be a part of the like, high school JV stuff, but like it gets super competitive.
01:15:17:09 – 01:15:19:49
Hal Nathan
It’s crazy. We were in middle school and it was.
01:15:19:54 – 01:15:29:26
Agent Palmer
At that point it gets like for those of us that were good enough but not great, it’s like, all right, this is too competitive. Now.
01:15:29:31 – 01:15:38:29
Hal Nathan
This is I was I was done. I was like, okay, I didn’t I didn’t care, I had, I had actually I think exhausted.
01:15:38:34 – 01:15:41:18
Agent Palmer
Did you do basketball at all.
01:15:41:23 – 01:15:41:52
Hal Nathan
No.
01:15:41:52 – 01:15:54:29
Agent Palmer
Because we had we had I remember what it was called. But I played basketball like at that same time that was off set of Little League that I did, with lower baskets or whatever.
01:15:54:34 – 01:16:06:42
Hal Nathan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love basketball, love basketball. And I got into playing basketball after that was like a thing. I was never tall, so it didn’t like I’m six foot, which is like, you know.
01:16:06:42 – 01:16:07:28
Agent Palmer
Taller than me.
01:16:07:28 – 01:16:12:20
Hal Nathan
People tall, tall, maybe I, you know, but not for basketball.
01:16:12:22 – 01:16:15:44
Agent Palmer
Well that okay? Yeah. For basketball it’s nothing. Yeah.
01:16:15:49 – 01:16:18:27
Hal Nathan
Yeah. And I like when I was a kid and we played and so.
01:16:18:27 – 01:16:23:07
Agent Palmer
Does that take off. Does that kind of take off after baseball in.
01:16:23:11 – 01:16:26:03
Hal Nathan
Basketball was.
01:16:26:08 – 01:16:28:44
Agent Palmer
Or was that just kind of like a constant in the playground? It doesn’t.
01:16:28:44 – 01:16:40:01
Hal Nathan
I think it was mostly that it was mostly just playing with friends. And I never was competitive with the I mean, I wasn’t like, you know, we played knock out and like games and fun.
01:16:40:05 – 01:16:43:13
Agent Palmer
Different than, say, lacrosse and baseball.
01:16:43:18 – 01:17:02:25
Hal Nathan
Yeah. Lacrosse was so unheard of that I just kind of like, I did it and I just, you know, kept learning. And so then you just sort of keep going and you do it and eventually you’re like, well, okay, I’m actually playing. I’m on the team and we’re, you know, winning this or losing that, whereas basketball, like, I knew it and I was just not good.
01:17:02:40 – 01:17:28:19
Hal Nathan
I was short and also like couldn’t reach the, you know, like I wasn’t reaching the rim and all that stuff. And I’d chuck up a ball and like, they didn’t. Basketball unit was kind of just like everybody had fun playing games, but nobody was ever really teaching you how to shoot. And so as much as I love playing with friends and then I, you know, in college we’ll just play some, you know, if we weren’t playing lacrosse, sometimes we’d go to the gym and just play basketball, and it’s a great time.
01:17:28:24 – 01:17:37:16
Hal Nathan
But I, you know, I suck. I’m awful. Like, I can dribble. Okay? And get to the rim or get an open shot, and then that’s, you know, that’s about it. It’s kind of down there.
01:17:37:16 – 01:17:40:56
Agent Palmer
I still I still go to the playground and shoot by myself, but like.
01:17:40:56 – 01:17:43:11
Hal Nathan
Yeah, why not? Why not.
01:17:43:16 – 01:17:52:29
Agent Palmer
Yeah. I’m I’m with, you know. No. Yeah. Like, if I, if anybody wanted to get a D&D League together, I’m still going to get picked last.
01:17:52:34 – 01:18:19:48
Hal Nathan
I, I agree, I think my, the only value I brought to the basketball court playing with friends was because lacrosse became. Well, I mean, it is an aggressive sport. I was like, good at defense. Okay, but were playing for nothing. So my defense in a, you know, a high school or college or whatever setting, if I was even lucky enough to do that, it’s probably a foul every.
01:18:19:48 – 01:18:42:15
Hal Nathan
Yeah. You know, two seconds. And so I’m like, I’m useless. And then at that point, you know, I really can’t do anything. So for me, basketball was always fun. Baseball was great, but I just needed something quicker because I had way too much energy and ended up being lacrosse. And I had some friends who played and all that, and so that was fun.
01:18:42:15 – 01:19:02:02
Hal Nathan
I don’t, I don’t remember even like, I mean, I quit and or I quit baseball. And then the team, I did the tryout, I did that intense trial with all the, you know, coaches with their clipboards sitting in there or sit in the thing and, you know, judged a bunch of fifth graders and we’re all sitting there like, you know, pitching and batting to nothing, and they’re all right.
01:19:02:02 – 01:19:16:45
Hal Nathan
And sit down and it’s quiet. It’s just, you know, you could hear a pin drop for whatever reason. And then, I was like, all right, you know what? I’m kind of done. I’m bored. Not fast. Whatever. And some teammates, you know, they have to take everybody. And they were like, oh, you know, we really liked your pitching.
01:19:16:45 – 01:19:36:30
Hal Nathan
We’d love to, you know, have you on whatever I think. I think it was the Mets. They were like, you know. Yeah, the Little League Mets were like, let’s, you know, let’s we we want you to be on the team. And I was like, that’s really cool. You’re not the Yankees, though. And I was just done. And then I picked up lacrosse.
01:19:36:30 – 01:19:43:11
Hal Nathan
And that year, a few of my friends were on the Mets. They won the whole thing. Okay. And, which was.
01:19:43:16 – 01:20:03:32
Agent Palmer
Well, I’ll say it is hilarious. In the meantime, we have there are some sports I like that we haven’t touched on. So if you ever get bored with all the other sports and making your films and series and writing when you have free time, I. I may have some sports for you to check out.
01:20:03:37 – 01:20:23:53
Hal Nathan
Please, please let me know. Give me, give me anything. Even the, obscure. You know, you have to dig deep, all right. Into the into the television to find it. I was watching what? Like I saw, like, YouTube highlights from, I think it’s a sport in Spain called, like, highly.
01:20:23:58 – 01:20:24:16
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
01:20:24:16 – 01:20:26:00
Hal Nathan
Or something. Yeah. Crazy.
01:20:26:09 – 01:20:26:29
Agent Palmer
Yeah.
01:20:26:33 – 01:20:28:19
Hal Nathan
Crazy. Send me that.
–End Transcription–
This transcription was processed by PalmerTech 3.1 and may contain errors for HUMINT (human intelligence).